You guys are so driven by bias and so bunkered-down into one, myopic, self-centered position that you don’t understand the concept of me playing devil's advocate, in order to further the conversation. You don’t have the brain cells (or the charity) to try to understand the other point of view. Instead of debating to learn or debating for a consensus, you guys just “die on the hill” of your own making. Never once have either of you attempted to address either Pope Leo’s or Pope Pius statements, but just ignore them repeatedly. Shame on me, for arguing with you for as long as I have. What a waste of time.
Well Pax, you are debating while using multiple different meanings of excommunication, even in the case of Luther. I addressed PPXII's statement way back in this thread somewhere, as for Pope Leo XII's........
(1) "the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium...... (2) “No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic.”(1) The key word there is
"communion." He says that a member is outside of Catholic communion, which is not outside of the Church. He then says they are
"alien to the Church" which can mean "estranged."
(2) Here he is not talking about heretics, rather, he is specifically addressing all those who simply disbelieve that heresies are heresies:
“No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies)." He says these cannot call themselves a Catholic. He then finishes by saying anyone who does believe in any one of those heresies is not a Catholic.
I think this has been addressed already from that Canon Law reference ("Excommunication") I've been quoting......
It must be remembered, of course, that all validly baptized persons can be said to be members of the Church, at least in the sense that per se they are subject to the laws of the Church. It would seem, too, that no notorious excommunicate retains full and perfect membership in the body of the Church, for such a one deprived, even in the external forum, of canonical communion which is one of the requisites for full and perfect membership in the body of the Church.
Poll
Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance (Read 20079 times)