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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure

Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 18579 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #180 on: Yesterday at 12:03:06 PM »
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  • You are so confused....

    Separating a family member from the family to avoid the family member from possibly spiritually  infecting other family members does not make that family member not a family member.

    Once a family member, always a family member.

    Similarly, once baptised, always a Catholic.  He may become a non-practicing Catholic, a heretic Catholic, or a schismatic Catholic, but he is still a Catholic.

    I encourage you to go back to basic Catechism.  Our Lord purposely did not make His Church complicated.  He wants everyone saved.
    It all depends on how you define member, moron.

    I (and +Bellarmine and others) define it as:  baptized + holds the faith.

    If you want to simply define a member as "baptized" then by all means, go ahead.  Just realize that's a very BROAD definition, with no distinctions.

    According to your definition then, there are 2 possible categories:
    a.  Member, union with the Church (i.e. holds the faith)
    b.  Member, not in union (rejects the faith)

    Category "b" is what Leo XII is referring to.  That's what this WHOLE THREAD IS REFERRING TO.  :facepalm:  Members who are not in union with the Church (i.e. heretics).  

    Why don't you try to understand what other people are saying, before just arguing endlessly?

    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #181 on: Yesterday at 12:52:08 PM »
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  • It all depends on how you define member, moron.

    I (and +Bellarmine and others) define it as:  baptized + holds the faith.

    If you want to simply define a member as "baptized" then by all means, go ahead.  Just realize that's a very BROAD definition, with no distinctions.

    According to your definition then, there are 2 possible categories:
    a.  Member, union with the Church (i.e. holds the faith)
    b.  Member, not in union (rejects the faith)

    Category "b" is what Leo XII is referring to.  That's what this WHOLE THREAD IS REFERRING TO.  :facepalm:  Members who are not in union with the Church (i.e. heretics). 

    Why don't you try to understand what other people are saying, before just arguing endlessly?
    Sticks and stone may break my bones, but words will never hurt me....  :laugh1:

    I read the entire thread.

    The Church has defined "member" to be a baptised Catholic.  Period.  Opinions don't matter.

    If you want to discuss a member (baptised Catholic) who is "not in union with the Catholic Faith", then YOU need to specify such. 

    You can't just say a heretic is not a member of the Church because, according to the Church, a heretic may or may not be a member of the Church.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #182 on: Yesterday at 02:06:33 PM »
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  • The Church has defined "member" to be a baptised Catholic.  Period.  Opinions don't matter.
    False.  The Church says baptism BEGINS one's membership.  

    Multiple popes have further broken this down into being 'one of the faithful' and those who are not 'faithful' (i.e. not in union with the Church).


    Quote
    I read the entire thread.
    No you didn't.  I made this distinction between membership and 'being one of the faithful' multiple times.

    p.s.  This distinction is only meant to serve the point of the conversation.  +Bellarmine rejects the distinction and says that heretics aren't members.  So go tell +Bellarmine he's wrong.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #183 on: Yesterday at 02:07:06 PM »
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  • 1) Many excommunications are "ipso facto", if you know what that means.
    2) I've never denied that a formal process is necessary.
    3) I've mentioned about 8,000x that we are talking about MARTIN LUTHER, but you refuse to stick on this example.  He had a formal process; something I don't deny.  :facepalm:
    1) Ipso facto for Luther (and everyone else) STILL requires the Church to officially impose the censure on him, just as they (wrongfully) did with Fr. Feeney. Nothing in Fr. Feeney's decree about him being outside of the Church either.  
    2) You simply ignore it, always implying that we or anyone can definitively decide on the matter.
    3) So where in the official decree of excommunication of Luther, Decet Romanum Pontificem, does it say anything about him no longer being a member, being expelled from the Church, or simply is now outside of the Church? Do you suppose they forgot that part, or did they leave it out on purpose? 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #184 on: Yesterday at 04:21:29 PM »
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  • 1) Ipso facto for Luther (and everyone else) STILL requires the Church to officially impose the censure on him, just as they (wrongfully) did with Fr. Feeney. Nothing in Fr. Feeney's decree about him being outside of the Church either. 
    2) You simply ignore it, always implying that we or anyone can definitively decide on the matter.
    3) So where in the official decree of excommunication of Luther, Decet Romanum Pontificem, does it say anything about him no longer being a member, being expelled from the Church, or simply is now outside of the Church? Do you suppose they forgot that part, or did they leave it out on purpose?
    1. I'm not talking about any other case, other than Luther, because his is clear cut.  Yes, they officially declared him excommunicated and a heretic (2 different things).
    2. I've not ignored it, moron.  I keep saying we're talking about Luther, WHO HAD A FORMAL PROCESS.
    3. Go read Pope Leo's statement again.  When one is a heretic, they are no longer 'part of the faithful' and are 'outside communion' with the Church.

    I say this means they aren't a member.  You say they are still a member.  It's debatable.

    What's not debatable is that they aren't "part of the faithful" (i.e. because they rejected the faith).  If you're not part of the Faithful, you're outside of the Church.  If you want to still call them members, then it's a game of semantics.


    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #185 on: Yesterday at 05:38:05 PM »
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  • False.  The Church says baptism BEGINS one's membership. 


    Wrong.

     Baltimore catechism: 
    "Baptism is a Sacrament which cleanses us from Original Sin, makes us Christians, children of God, and heirs of Heaven."

    Period. End of story.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #186 on: Yesterday at 06:55:39 PM »
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  • Wrong.

     Baltimore catechism:
    "Baptism is a Sacrament which cleanses us from Original Sin, makes us Christians, children of God, and heirs of Heaven."

    Period. End of story.
    :facepalm:  We've moved on, if you want to go back and read the thread.

    Heretics do not have "catholic communion" (the word used by Pope Leo).  You can be a member, but still be "outside catholic communion".  Thus, membership is reduced to being baptized.  

     

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #187 on: Yesterday at 07:30:13 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  We've moved on, if you want to go back and read the thread.

    Heretics do not have "catholic communion" (the word used by Pope Leo).  You can be a member, but still be "outside catholic communion".  Thus, membership is reduced to being baptized. 

     

    :facepalm:  Both of you are wrong. Pope Pius XII:

    “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.”         
    MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI

    Heretics are neither members of the Church nor are they any part of the “Catholic communion”.
    Why is this simple concept so difficult for people to understand?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #188 on: Yesterday at 08:23:35 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  Both of you are wrong. Pope Pius XII:

    “Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.”         
    MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI

    Heretics are neither members of the Church nor are they any part of the “Catholic communion”.
    Why is this simple concept so difficult for people to understand?
    Read the whole thread before you butt in.