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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure
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Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 18609 times)

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Offline SimonJude

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #165 on: Yesterday at 09:46:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 27, 2025, 09:46:58 AM

    Maybe this is all too simple, I don't know.
    It IS simple.  That's why young children can receive Communion.  
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    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #166 on: Yesterday at 09:53:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 27, 2025, 10:45:40 AM
    If a heretic is a major, public, heretic, then he incurs 2 penalties - 1) the sin of heresy and 2) the penalties of the Church, which is excommunication.

    A heretic must FIRST be forgiven/reconciled BY THE CHURCH (i.e. through the formal process) and THEN he can be reconciled to God (through confession).

    God will not forgive in confession, a heretic who has not humbled himself before the Church (....except in danger of death).

    Excommunication means a person is 'severed from the Church' (spiritually, due to their sin and also due to canon law).  Some popes use the term 'lose membership'.  Some saints use the term 'outside the church' (excommunication LITERALLY means to "deprive one of membership").

    The error of those who debate this topic is a lack of distinguishment.
    An excommunicated catholic is, by definition, 'not a member' of the Church.
    A heretic, by definition, is 'not a member' of the Church.
    But...a hindu is also 'not a member' of the Church.

    Is a hindu's lack of membership the same as a heretic's lack of membership?  Of course not.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Excommunication means a person is excluded from receiving blessings, graces, and sacraments.  It does not make them lose their membership.

    Just like the wayward family member example I've used in this thread, who does not become a non-family-member because he is excluded from family activities.
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    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #167 on: Yesterday at 09:54:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 27, 2025, 11:41:38 AM
    I don't know where you come up with the stuff you're saying, but I can show you where I come up with what I'm saying.....by definition (see attached from pre-V2 Catholic Dictionary), it begins: "Excommunication is an ecclesiastical censure which excludes a person from the communion of the faithful with consequent disabilities and deprivations."
    Note that it does not say that they are no longer members.
    I already said: "Among other important aspects, the "formal process" proves to the confessor that the heretic really wants to repent and be absolved."

    Basically the rest of your whole post says what I already said.

    But the heresies and conditions pertaining to Luther cannot be compared to the conciliar popes anyway. Whereas the popes all believe that their heresies are actual Church teachings, Luther flat out told the Church to go to hell and that she was wrong. Luther hated everything about the faith, the Church, and the pope - and preached against pretty much all things Catholic on purpose - and he was still a Catholic priest. Guaranteed he faced God as a Catholic priest and in hell, to his everlasting shame, he will remain a Catholic priest forever, because: "Thou art a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek."
    Exactly.
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    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #168 on: Yesterday at 09:58:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 27, 2025, 11:49:12 AM
    Heresy doesn’t take away the priesthood.  That has nothing to do with the discussion.
    Huh?!?!

    How can heresy make you a non-member of the Church (your statement in this thread), yet not take away holy orders?

    What you are saying is that a heretical Catholic priest is still a Catholic priest but not a member of the Church.

    You are so confused....
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #169 on: Yesterday at 10:03:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimonJude on Yesterday at 09:43:56 AM
    I find it really hard to believe that a traditional Catholic doesn't know these things.
    I think it's just that they do not want to know because it contradicts their own opinion.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #170 on: Yesterday at 10:08:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 10:03:56 AM
    I think it's just that they do not want to know because it contradicts their own opinion.
    Must be something like that...
    Truth is Truth, no matter what we want to believe differently.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #171 on: Yesterday at 10:12:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimonJude on Yesterday at 09:53:29 AM
    Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Excommunication means a person is excluded from receiving blessings, graces, and sacraments.  It does not make them lose their membership.

    Just like the wayward family member example I've used in this thread, who does not become a non-family-member because he is excluded from family activities.
    Pax is stuck on the formal process of abjuration, yet his formula for the penitent heretic never even considers that first, there must be the formal process of excommunication, it's as if that is something that is not even remotely necessary. For him, apparently priests and laypeople are the ones that decide whether heretics and popes (of all people) are members or not.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #172 on: Yesterday at 10:21:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 10:12:11 AM
    For him, apparently priests and laypeople are the ones that decide whether heretics and popes (of all people) are members or not.
    Such gall....
    I wouldn't want that job if it came to me on a silver platter.
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    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #173 on: Yesterday at 10:29:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on Yesterday at 09:05:58 AM
    Sure.  Divert.
    Learn basic catechism, then put it to practice in your own life.  Your job in life is to get yourself to Heaven.  Period.  It's not complicated.  That's why Pope st pius X lowered the age of first communion. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #174 on: Yesterday at 10:56:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimonJude on Yesterday at 08:58:42 AM
    A "vitando" excommunication means the person is never welcome back.  Again, he's still a member.

    A non-practicing Catholic is just that, non-practicing.  It does not mean he is not a member.  It means he is less likely to get to Heaven.
    Baptism makes a person a Christian, a child of God, an heir of Heaven and places an indelible mark on his soul.  A baptised person is a member of the Church and always will be.
    :facepalm:  St Bellarmine would disagree.  He's already been quoted.  You can disagree with +Bellarmine (he's not infallible), but don't act like EVERY theologian (or the Church) has decided the matter.  They haven't.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #175 on: Yesterday at 11:00:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimonJude on Yesterday at 09:38:27 AM
    No, he doesn’t sever himself from membership in the Church, just as the wayward adult child I've mentioned doesn't. 
    The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodore :, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. “No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic” (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88). 

    Pope Leo XII, Satis Cognitum



    Baptism + Faith = a member.  When a person rejects the Faith, they are no longer a member.  They can regain membership, by conversion, but sins of heresy, schism, etc make one a non-member.  So says Pope Leo XII
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #176 on: Yesterday at 11:04:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 10:12:11 AM
    Pax is stuck on the formal process of abjuration, yet his formula for the penitent heretic never even considers that first, there must be the formal process of excommunication,
    1) Many excommunications are "ipso facto", if you know what that means.
    2) I've never denied that a formal process is necessary.
    3) I've mentioned about 8,000x that we are talking about MARTIN LUTHER, but you refuse to stick on this example.  He had a formal process; something I don't deny.  :facepalm:
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    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #177 on: Yesterday at 11:06:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Yesterday at 10:56:18 AM
    :facepalm:  St Bellarmine would disagree.  He's already been quoted.  You can disagree with +Bellarmine (he's not infallible), but don't act like EVERY theologian (or the Church) has decided the matter.  They haven't.
    Theologians don't have to agree. They are not the Church.

    The Church HAS decided the matter.  Go check out Canon law and the Baltimore catechism.  Stubborn got you started:
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/poll-for-those-who-consider-themselves-part-of-the-resistance/msg1003408/#msg1003408
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    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #178 on: Yesterday at 11:13:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Yesterday at 11:00:34 AM
    The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodore :, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. “No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic” (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88).

    Pope Leo XII, Satis Cognitum



    Baptism + Faith = a member.  When a person rejects the Faith, they are no longer a member.  They can regain membership, by conversion, but sins of heresy, schism, etc make one a non-member.  So says Pope Leo XII
    You are so confused....

    Separating a family member from the family to avoid the family member from possibly spiritually  infecting other family members does not make that family member not a family member.

    Once a family member, always a family member. 

    Similarly, once baptised, always a Catholic.  He may become a non-practicing Catholic, a heretic Catholic, or a schismatic Catholic, but he is still a Catholic.

    I encourage you to go back to basic Catechism.  Our Lord purposely did not make His Church complicated.  He wants everyone saved.
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    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #179 on: Yesterday at 11:29:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Yesterday at 11:00:34 AM
    When a person rejects the Faith, they are no longer a member.  They can regain membership, by conversion, but sins of heresy, schism, etc make one a non-member.  So says Pope Leo XII
    Let me correct this for you:

    When a baptised Catholic rejects the Faith, he sins.  He can loose the sin by going to confession and doing the penance he is told to do.

    Q. 49. Say the Apostles’ Creed.
    A. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified; died, and was buried. He descended into hell: the third day He arose again from the dead: He ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

    Q. 50. What is a creed?
    A. A creed is a summary or list of the chief truths we believe or profess to believe. It is a compendium of doctrine.

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