Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13

Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 18026 times)

1 Member and 9 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline SimonJude

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 180
  • Reputation: +42/-11
  • Gender: Male
Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #150 on: Today at 08:58:42 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Yesterday at 10:35:01 AM
    Yes, Stubborn isn’t distinguishing between the various reasons for excommunication.  If a woman gets an abortion, she’s excommunicated but if she’s still practicing the Faith, she’s still a member.  If someone like Martin Luther is excommunicated for heresy AND THEN STOPS PRACTICING THE FAITH, he is obviously not a member anymore.  Faith is required for membership, as multiple popes have said.
    Excommunication is like a parent keeping an adult child at arms length from the rest of the family for fear the bad example will infect the others.  It doesn't mean the child is not a family member.  It means he's not welcome until he mends his ways.

    A "vitando" excommunication means the person is never welcome back.  Again, he's still a member.

    A non-practicing Catholic is just that, non-practicing.  It does not mean he is not a member.  It means he is less likely to get to Heaven.

    Baptism makes a person a Christian, a child of God, an heir of Heaven and places an indelible mark on his soul.  A baptised person is a member of the Church and always will be.

    Don't get lost in the thicket.
    Logged

    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14985
    • Reputation: +6214/-918
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #151 on: Today at 09:05:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 08:50:42 AM
    blah, blah, blah.  We're not talking about excommunication, but MAJOR HERESY, i.e. Martin Luther.

    Stubborn, you keep "moving the goalposts";  you're dishonest.
     blah blah blah
    You make zero sense because you have zero idea what you are even talking about. Post again when you learn what MAJOR HERESY is.

    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 844
    • Reputation: +238/-83
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #152 on: Today at 09:05:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: SimonJude on Today at 08:31:34 AM
    The truth is that none of us are as good or sincere a disciple of Jesus as we ought to be, so it’s a much better use of our time to look inward and ask, am I living and acting as a genuine disciple of Jesus Christ? Or are there areas of my own life that need amendment?

    Sure.  Divert.
    Logged

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #153 on: Today at 09:18:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on Today at 09:05:58 AM
    Sure.  Divert.
    O.k.  I'll start at the beginning....
    Logged

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #154 on: Today at 09:19:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on October 03, 2025, 09:12:19 AM

    1. One who is separated from the Church is not a member of the Church.  He goes from being Catholic to non-Catholic.
    2. The separation takes place at the very instant the sin is committed.
    3. The proposition is independent of its application to a particular case.
    Wrong.

    Baptism makes a person a Christian, a child of God, an heir of Heaven and places an indelible mark on his soul.  A baptised person is a member of the Church and always will be.
    Logged

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #155 on: Today at 09:23:15 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • "The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church." (Your poll)

    I would hope people would affirm this to be true...

    Separating a family member from the family to avoid the family member from possibly spiritually  infecting other family members does not make the family member not a family member.

    Once a family member, always a family member. 
    Logged

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #156 on: Today at 09:26:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 13, 2025, 11:32:57 AM
    So, it's really the wrong question, as nearly everyone agrees with the propostion ... with the key being when "formal" heresy can be discerned, when it's "manifest" and to whom ... and of course the term "sin" is a bit tricky as bleeds into the internal forum, and then the term "public and manifest" overlap and are redundant, so the proposition remains a bit murky.

    Many R&R would likely agree that the Conciliar papal claimants are manifest heretics, but would dispute the "formal" part.
    Murking the water....
    Once baptised, always baptised and a member of the Church.  Period.
    Logged

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #157 on: Today at 09:27:38 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 13, 2025, 01:30:08 PM
    I don't think so because your #1 and #2 merely state that the sin of heresy was being committed. Certainly all heresies are in direct contradiction to what the Church teaches, but for the sake of argument, your #s 1 and 2 were coming out of the mouth of an infidel, a prot minister, or a prot child for that matter. In these cases, I don't think we can say with certainty that they are speaking manifest heresy.

    Instead of saying "One who knowingly...." You could have phrased it: "A Catholic who knowingly..."  in this way it would have been more clear I think that the person was guilty of the sin of heresy. 

    But all non-Catholics, all of those outside of the Church, all non-members cannot receive the sacraments. So if this Catholic guilty of the sin of heresy, per the OP is ipso facto outside of the Church, then he cannot simply go to confession and be absolved as if he is a member of the Church, again, this is per the OP.

    In reality, manifest heresy is a mortal sin, for this particular sin the Church attaches a censure, the censure of excommunication. In confession, in the traditional formula for absolution, the priest first removes the censure, then absolves the sinner. This is true for all of us trads each time we go to confession.

    And that's why a Catholic who has committed the sin of heresy is still a member because he can simply walk into the confession like only Catholics can do and leave absolved, whereas non-Catholics cannot. 


    PPXII was of course right. The excommunicated Catholic cannot partake with the community of the Church, he has excommunicated or severed himself from that due to his sin of public heresy.

    This means those who are excommunicated are forbidden from taking part in the communal life of the Church, they cannot receive communion or any of the sacraments until their sin is forgiven, they cannot be a sponsor, they cannot sing in the choir, be an usher etc. etc,. The nature of the sin of heresy makes one position themselves in direct opposition to God, the Church, her teachings, her doctrines, her magisterium and all things Catholic. They have effectively severed themselves from the Church by their sin of heresy. But if they were ever Catholic, they are still a Catholic - guilty of the sin of public heresy - and need to go to confession, which again, is something only Catholics can do. 
    Exactly 100% true.
    Logged

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #158 on: Today at 09:30:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on October 18, 2025, 08:07:51 AM
    "They have effectively severed themselves from the Church by their sin of heresy. But if they were ever Catholic, they are still a Catholic - guilty of the sin of public heresy - and need to go to confession, which again, is something only Catholics can do."

    What?  You are essentially saying that Pope Pius XII's teaching in Mystici Corporis means that Catholics who are guilty of the public sin of heresy remain members of the Church.  Yep.  They do not go from being Catholic to non-Catholic.  From where did you get this interpretation?
    Logged

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #159 on: Today at 09:35:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: WorldsAway on October 19, 2025, 03:11:31 PM
    There is nothing stopping anybody at all from walking into a confessional and confessing their sins. Simply being in a confessional with a priest does not necessarily mean someone is Catholic. Hypothetically, a jew, Protestant, Hindu, etc. could do that. But they cannot receive absolution (the sacrament) because they are not Catholic. My point is, a heretic must abjure his heresy before being absolved of his sins. That is what allows a former heretic, someone who was outside of the Church, but is no longer, to receive absolution.

    >Heretic enters confessional. *No sacrament at this point

    >Heretic abjures his heresy and confesses other sins if necessary. It is evident he is no longer a heretic *No sacrament at this point

    >Censure is lifted, former heretic is now a member of the Church again *Still no sacrament at this point

    >Former heretic receives absolution *The Sacrament is effected, which only Catholics can receive

    I really cannot agree with [Fr. Wathen's]"once a Catholic always a Catholic" and "heretics are still members of the Church" ideas. It seems incredibly novel to me and flies in the face of what the popes have taught:
    Look up canon law.  The idea is not novel to Fr. Wathen. 
    Logged

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #160 on: Today at 09:38:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on October 19, 2025, 04:37:35 PM
    That the one guilty of the sin of heresy severs himself is the exact point.  He severs himself from membership in the Church by the very act of the public sin of heresy.  
    No, he doesn’t sever himself from membership in the Church, just as the wayward adult child I've mentioned doesn't.   
    Logged

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #161 on: Today at 09:40:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 20, 2025, 06:31:56 AM

    This is basic Catholicism, it is not complicated. It really is not the least bit complicated.
    Exactly.  
    Logged

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #162 on: Today at 09:43:56 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 27, 2025, 05:28:24 AM
    Ok, so you agree that heresy is a sin, a mortal sin - the worst of all the sins. The question is, how can a penitent Catholic obtain absolution from the sin of heresy? 

    1917 Canon 2314
    § 1. All apostates from the Christian faith and each and every heretic or schismatic:
    1.° Incur by that fact excommunication"

    What is excommunication?
    Excommunication is a censure attached to certain sins (the sin of heresy in this case) by the (1917) Code of Canon Law.

    What is a censure?
    From Commentary on the 1917 Code of Canon Law (pdf attached)....
    "1525. A censure is a penalty by which a subject (by Baptism) of the Church is deprived of some spiritual benefits, or of benefits connected with matters spiritual, because of obstinate violation of some law of the Church, until such time as he repents and obtains absolution."

    Note that, contrary to popular opinion, per (1917) Canon Law, the censure of excommunication does not mean that one is outside of the Church, what the censure means is said above.

    What all of this means, is that the penitent Catholic guilty of the sin of heresy, whether the bishop decides an abjuration is required or not,  can do that which only members of the Church can do - walk into the confessional, confess his sin to the priest and be absolved by the priest. This is because in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance, there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church. 

    Honestly, all any trad needs to do is use themselves as an example, i.e. what would they do if (God forbid) they fell into the sin of heresy and wanted to repent? 
    I find it really hard to believe that a traditional Catholic doesn't know these things.
    Logged

    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14985
    • Reputation: +6214/-918
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #163 on: Today at 09:45:03 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on Today at 08:23:58 AM
    (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, Paragraph 22)

    Note in the above quote that Pope Pius XII is speaking about membership in the Church.  Those who separate themselves (e.g., public sin of heresy) or have been excluded by excommunication (i.e., perfect excommunication) are NOT members of the Church.

    Wake up, Stubborn!
    Decet Romanum Pontificem
    Papal Bull of Excommunication of Martin Luther and his followers
    Pope Leo X - 1521

    The above link is the decree of excommunication of Luther, find in it where he was expelled outside of the Church. It's not in there - because he wasn't - because Excommunication does not mean expelled from the Church, it means what I already posted, which Pax blah blah'd. He'd rather argue.
    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SimonJude

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 180
    • Reputation: +42/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #164 on: Today at 09:45:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 27, 2025, 08:39:48 AM
    Because a censure is a low level canon law punishment, which (most) priests are allowed to forgive.  An excommunication is the highest level, and there are various levels of these too.  A person like Martin Luther (or the current Pope Leo, or Cardinal Dolan...really bad heretics), who have the highest excommunication penalty, they CANNOT be forgiven these canon law penalties by a simple priest, in confession.  No, per canon law, it requires a formal process.  A formal hearing.  Or...it would require such AND THEN it would require a papal forgiveness or by a bishop or some roman official.  After the heretic recants his heresy (abjuration), THEN he goes to confession.
    He's explained it several times to you:
    "it depends on the authority [who issued the penalty], the heretic and the censure that is attached to the sin, and if it is reserved to the Holy See, or to the bishop, or whatever other penalties/requirements are part of that censure."
    Logged
    Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13
    « previous next »