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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure

Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 17794 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #135 on: Yesterday at 10:35:01 AM »
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  • Yes, Stubborn isn’t distinguishing between the various reasons for excommunication.  If a woman gets an abortion, she’s excommunicated but if she’s still practicing the Faith, she’s still a member.  If someone like Martin Luther is excommunicated for heresy AND THEN STOPS PRACTICING THE FAITH, he is obviously not a member anymore.  Faith is required for membership, as multiple popes have said. 

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #136 on: Yesterday at 10:52:46 AM »
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  • Yes, Stubborn isn’t distinguishing between the various reasons for excommunication.  If a woman gets an abortion, she’s excommunicated but if she’s still practicing the Faith, she’s still a member.  If someone like Martin Luther is excommunicated for heresy AND THEN STOPS PRACTICING THE FAITH, he is obviously not a member anymore.  Faith is required for membership, as multiple popes have said.
    That's your opinion. The Fathers did not teach any such thing - per Suarez.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #137 on: Yesterday at 12:19:32 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  Suarez mentions excommunication.  Heresy is another matter which he didn’t mention.  You’re falsely expanding his comments.  

    Online SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #138 on: Yesterday at 12:58:57 PM »
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  • What we know for sure is that Fr. Martin Luther died a Catholic priest: "Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech."

    The indelible mark of the Sacrament of Baptism on our soul is just as ineradicable as that of Holy Orders.
    That's what I was taught.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #139 on: Yesterday at 02:34:48 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  Suarez mentions excommunication.  Heresy is another matter which he didn’t mention.  You’re falsely expanding his comments. 
    That's right, he mentions excommunication, all I did was quote what he said. 

     


       
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #140 on: Yesterday at 05:27:22 PM »
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  • Suarez didn’t say that heretics are still members.  

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #141 on: Today at 04:39:48 AM »
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  • Suarez didn’t say that heretics are still members. 
    So what? Suarez didn't say heretics are not members either. He said the fathers did not teach excommunicates are placed outside of the Church. That is what he based his opinion on.

    Since you think he is wrong, maybe you should look into finding out why the fathers did not teach that excommunicates are placed outside of the Church.   

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #142 on: Today at 05:11:42 AM »
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  • Yes, Stubborn isn’t distinguishing between the various reasons for excommunication.  If a woman gets an abortion, she’s excommunicated but if she’s still practicing the Faith, she’s still a member.  If someone like Martin Luther is excommunicated for heresy AND THEN STOPS PRACTICING THE FAITH, he is obviously not a member anymore.  Faith is required for membership, as multiple popes have said.

    Spend 3 minutes and read the snips below to help you understand it's purpose what excommunication is. The snips are copied from the attached PDF which is the docuмent referenced in the 1917 Code of Canon Law.

    Snip from the Forward...

    Excommunication is the gravest of all canonical punishments ; it separates the delinquent from the communion of the faithful, and, practically speaking, deprives him of all the rights of membership in the Church of Christ. Were its dreadful character better known, no doubt the ends of ecclesiastical penal legislation would be more efficiently attained.

    In the early ages the word excommunication was a generic term used to designate all ecclesiastical punishments and remedies. Consequently, the history of the censure of excommunication is very closely connected with that of ecclesiastical punishments in general; at times they are so closely allied that it is impossible to discriminate between them. Hence this work does not contain an exhaustive study of the history of excommunication. An attempt has been made, however, to gather together the salient points in its historical development.

    Naturally, more attention has been given to the study of the effects of excommunication because of their practical importance. Excommunication is a medicinal punishment; its primary and immediate purpose is to bring the delinquent back to a sense of duty. The many and grave effects which follow upon the censure of excommunication are well calculated to accomplish this purpose.  The effects of excommunication are, as Cerato ( Censurae Vigentes , n. 37) remarks "totidem auxilia ac voces, quibus Pia Mater Ecclesia delinquentem et contumacem ad poenitentiam et ad salutem adducere contendit." (as many aids and voices, with which the Pious Mother Church strives to bring the delinquent and stubborn to repentance and salvation.) - Google Translate

    Snip from the first chapter (re: Canon 2257).....

    Etymologically, excommunication (Lat. ex, out of, away from ; communicatio, communication) signifies the separation of one from communication with others. In ecclesiastical law, it designates the act of excluding, or the state of being excluded from communication with the faithful, and is defined as a censure by which a person is excluded from the communion of the faithful with the effects which are enumerated in the canons and which cannot be separated.

    Generically, therefore, excommunication is a censure, that is, a penalty by which a baptized person, delinquent and contumacious, is deprived of some spiritual goods, or goods annexed to spiritual things, until he ceases to be contumacious and is absolved. A censure is a penalty, that is, a privation of some good, inflicted by legitimate authority for the correction of the delinquent and punishment of the offense. It is a spiritual penalty, not only because it proceeds from a spiritual power and is inflicted for a spiritual purpose, but especially because it deprives one of spiritual goods, although secondarily it deprives one of temporal goods also. Moreover, it is a medicinal penalty, for its primary and immediate purpose is the emendation [correction] of the delinquent.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #143 on: Today at 08:13:08 AM »
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  • What you fail to realize is that all sin is against Divine Law, heresy is a sin, the worst of all the sins. What we know for sure is that Fr. Martin Luther died a Catholic priest: "Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech."

    The indelible mark of the Sacrament of Baptism on our soul is just as ineradicable as that of Holy Orders.

    You read the post you quoted,it says what it says. Read the post immediately prior to this post of yours.

    But not all sin is excommunicable.  Again, did Martin Luther die a member of the Church?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #144 on: Today at 08:15:49 AM »
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  • That's what I was taught.

    Did Martin Luther die a member of the Church?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #145 on: Today at 08:23:58 AM »
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  • Quote
    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.
    (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, Paragraph 22)

    Note in the above quote that Pope Pius XII is speaking about membership in the Church.  Those who separate themselves (e.g., public sin of heresy) or have been excluded by excommunication (i.e., perfect excommunication) are NOT members of the Church.

    Wake up, Stubborn!


    Online SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #146 on: Today at 08:26:28 AM »
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  • Baptism is a Sacrament which cleanses us from Original Sin, makes us Christians, children of God, and heirs of Heaven.

    Baptism can be received only once because it places an indelible mark on the soul.

    Online SimonJude

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #147 on: Today at 08:31:34 AM »
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  • Did Martin Luther die a member of the Church?
    The truth is that none of us are as good or sincere a disciple of Jesus as we ought to be, so it’s a much better use of our time to look inward and ask, am I living and acting as a genuine disciple of Jesus Christ? Or are there areas of my own life that need amendment?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #148 on: Today at 08:50:42 AM »
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  • Spend 3 minutes and read the snips below to help you understand it's purpose what excommunication is. The snips are copied from the attached PDF which is the docuмent referenced in the 1917 Code of Canon Law.

    Snip from the Forward...

    Excommunication is the gravest of all canonical punishments ; it separates the delinquent from the communion of the faithful, and, practically speaking, deprives him of all the rights of membership in the Church of Christ. Were its dreadful character better known, no doubt the ends of ecclesiastical penal legislation would be more efficiently attained.

    In the early ages the word excommunication was a generic term used to designate all ecclesiastical punishments and remedies. Consequently, the history of the censure of excommunication is very closely connected with that of ecclesiastical punishments in general; at times they are so closely allied that it is impossible to discriminate between them. Hence this work does not contain an exhaustive study of the history of excommunication. An attempt has been made, however, to gather together the salient points in its historical development.

    Naturally, more attention has been given to the study of the effects of excommunication because of their practical importance. Excommunication is a medicinal punishment; its primary and immediate purpose is to bring the delinquent back to a sense of duty. The many and grave effects which follow upon the censure of excommunication are well calculated to accomplish this purpose.  The effects of excommunication are, as Cerato ( Censurae Vigentes , n. 37) remarks "totidem auxilia ac voces, quibus Pia Mater Ecclesia delinquentem et contumacem ad poenitentiam et ad salutem adducere contendit." (as many aids and voices, with which the Pious Mother Church strives to bring the delinquent and stubborn to repentance and salvation.) - Google Translate

    Snip from the first chapter (re: Canon 2257).....

    Etymologically, excommunication (Lat. ex, out of, away from ; communicatio, communication) signifies the separation of one from communication with others. In ecclesiastical law, it designates the act of excluding, or the state of being excluded from communication with the faithful, and is defined as a censure by which a person is excluded from the communion of the faithful with the effects which are enumerated in the canons and which cannot be separated.

    Generically, therefore, excommunication is a censure, that is, a penalty by which a baptized person, delinquent and contumacious, is deprived of some spiritual goods, or goods annexed to spiritual things, until he ceases to be contumacious and is absolved. A censure is a penalty, that is, a privation of some good, inflicted by legitimate authority for the correction of the delinquent and punishment of the offense. It is a spiritual penalty, not only because it proceeds from a spiritual power and is inflicted for a spiritual purpose, but especially because it deprives one of spiritual goods, although secondarily it deprives one of temporal goods also. Moreover, it is a medicinal penalty, for its primary and immediate purpose is the emendation [correction] of the delinquent.
    blah, blah, blah.  We're not talking about excommunication, but MAJOR HERESY, i.e. Martin Luther.

    Stubborn, you keep "moving the goalposts";  you're dishonest.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #149 on: Today at 08:55:08 AM »
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  • But not all sin is excommunicable.  Again, did Martin Luther die a member of the Church?
    Right.  All heretics are excommunicated.  But not all excommunicates are heretics.

    Stubborn knows this, but he has an agenda to defend.  He's not interested in the truth but in defending his position (anti-sedevacantism).  Which is why he's fixated on 'excommuncation' in order to mess up the thread and confuse.  I've debated with him enough.  He's close-minded on certain topics and anti-intellectual.