Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure

Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 17952 times)

1 Member and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Catholic Knight

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 844
  • Reputation: +238/-83
  • Gender: Male
Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #120 on: November 05, 2025, 07:56:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ok, so you agree that heresy is a sin, a mortal sin - the worst of all the sins. The question is, how can a penitent Catholic obtain absolution from the sin of heresy? 

    1917 Canon 2314

    § 1. All apostates from the Christian faith and each and every heretic or schismatic:
    1.° Incur by that fact excommunication"

    What is excommunication?
    Excommunication is a censure attached to certain sins (the sin of heresy in this case) by the (1917) Code of Canon Law.

    What is a censure?
    From Commentary on the 1917 Code of Canon Law (pdf attached)....
    "1525. A censure is a penalty by which a subject (by Baptism) of the Church is deprived of some spiritual benefits, or of benefits connected with matters spiritual, because of obstinate violation of some law of the Church, until such time as he repents and obtains absolution."

    Note that, contrary to popular opinion, per (1917) Canon Law, the censure of excommunication does not mean that one is outside of the Church, what the censure means is said above.

    What all of this means, is that the penitent Catholic guilty of the sin of heresy, whether the bishop decides an abjuration is required or not,  can do that which only members of the Church can do - walk into the confessional, confess his sin to the priest and be absolved by the priest. This is because in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance, there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church. 

    Honestly, all any trad needs to do is use themselves as an example, i.e. what would they do if (God forbid) they fell into the sin of heresy and wanted to repent? 

    This is not evidence that Pope Pius XII's teaching in Mystici Corporis regarding the public sin of heresy means that a Catholic who commits this public remains a member of the Church.  Show me one theologian after the promulgation of Mystici Corporis and before Vatican II who holds your position.

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 844
    • Reputation: +238/-83
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #121 on: November 05, 2025, 08:03:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Manifest/formal heresy has nothing to do with the internal forum. 

    This is not entirely true.  Manifest formal heresy supposes sin before God.


    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 844
    • Reputation: +238/-83
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #122 on: November 05, 2025, 08:10:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeah, the whole reason this debate exists is because Sedes use the overly-simplistic argument of "Heresy = loss of membership = loss of office.  All happening in the span of 10 seconds."

    Then those opposed say, "Well, heretics are still members."  (which is true, to a degree).

    What the Sedes argue is true (if re-framed), i.e. -- Manifest heresy (i.e. rejection of the faith) = loss of unity with the mystical body = loss of office.  But WHEN all this happens, is anyone's guess. 

    There is no partial membership in the Church.  You are either a member or you are not.  Period.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12859
    • Reputation: +8158/-2515
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #123 on: November 05, 2025, 09:54:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There is no partial membership in the Church.  You are either a member or you are not.  Period.
    :facepalm:  Has nothing to do with my point.  Read the whole thread or don't respond.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14985
    • Reputation: +6214/-918
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #124 on: November 05, 2025, 10:00:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is not evidence that Pope Pius XII's teaching in Mystici Corporis regarding the public sin of heresy means that a Catholic who commits this public remains a member of the Church.  Show me one theologian after the promulgation of Mystici Corporis and before Vatican II who holds your position.
    Actually, yes, that's exactly what it is. It is contrary to the whole sede narrative.

    From a previous post in this thread:

    "The question as to whether excommunicates cease to be members of the Church has given rise to quite a controversy among theologians. Suarez is of the opinion that persons under ban of excommunication continue to be members of the Church. He states that the Fathers do not teach that excommunicates are placed outside the Church, but rather that they are separated from communication with the Church : that a person can retain his citizenship in a state and yet be deprived of the society of his fellow-citizens."

    Suarez was after V1 (1548-1617). You asked for a theologian from within about a certain 20 year span of the last century, good luck finding a good one. Suarez is a good one. Now I will play Pax: Are you saying Suarez doesn't know what he is talking about or is a heretic? Is that what you're saying?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 985
    • Reputation: +766/-93
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #125 on: November 05, 2025, 10:20:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Actually, yes, that's exactly what it is. It is contrary to the whole sede narrative.

    From a previous post in this thread:

    "The question as to whether excommunicates cease to be members of the Church has given rise to quite a controversy among theologians. Suarez is of the opinion that persons under ban of excommunication continue to be members of the Church. He states that the Fathers do not teach that excommunicates are placed outside the Church, but rather that they are separated from communication with the Church : that a person can retain his citizenship in a state and yet be deprived of the society of his fellow-citizens."

    Suarez was after V1 (1548-1617). You asked for a theologian from within about a certain 20 year span of the last century, good luck finding a good one. Suarez is a good one. Now I will play Pax: Are you saying Suarez doesn't know what he is talking about or is a heretic? Is that what you're saying?
    So the teaching of a Pope does not overrule the opinion of a single theologian...who held said opinion 400 years prior to what Pope Pius XII clarified? Do you not think Suarez would have amended his opinion due to it being contradictory to the teaching of a Pope?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14985
    • Reputation: +6214/-918
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #126 on: November 05, 2025, 10:42:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So the teaching of a Pope does not overrule the opinion of a single theologian...who held said opinion 400 years prior to what Pope Pius XII clarified? Do you not think Suarez would have amended his opinion due to it being contradictory to the teaching of a Pope?
    No, first because Suarez said that the Fathers do not teach that excommunicates are placed outside the Church, so Suarez did not invent the idea from his own imagination - it was taught by the fathers.

    Second, because PPXII is teaching about the nature of the sins. He says that the nature of mortal sins themselves result in severing all who are guilty to some degree, but the nature of the particular sins of heresy, schism and Apostasy are such that those who commit them results in them rejecting the true faith for their false faith. That is the nature of those sins.     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12859
    • Reputation: +8158/-2515
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #127 on: November 05, 2025, 10:55:01 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, first because Suarez said that the Fathers do not teach that excommunicates are placed outside the Church, so Suarez did not invent the idea from his own imagination - it was taught by the fathers.

    Second, because PPXII is teaching about the nature of the sins. He says that the nature of mortal sins themselves result in severing all who are guilty to some degree, but the nature of the particular sins of heresy, schism and Apostasy are such that those who commit them results in them rejecting the true faith for their false faith. That is the nature of those sins.   
    Who cares?  Suarez had an opinion.  +Bellarmine disagreed.  It's a debate.

    Stubborn, are you now saying that ALL of the Fathers taught this?  If so, you're now claiming that it's a dogma of Tradition and that +Bellarmine is (by ignoring the Fathers) a heretic.

    Why can't people just admit that it's a debated issue?  


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14985
    • Reputation: +6214/-918
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #128 on: November 05, 2025, 11:19:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Who cares?  Suarez had an opinion.  +Bellarmine disagreed.  It's a debate.

    Stubborn, are you now saying that ALL of the Fathers taught this?  If so, you're now claiming that it's a dogma of Tradition and that +Bellarmine is (by ignoring the Fathers) a heretic.

    Why can't people just admit that it's a debated issue?  
    Pax, are you saying Suarez said that all of the Fathers taught this? All I did was repeat what he said. If you read what he said, and then what I said, you will see that I copied what he said. So how the heck do you even ask me such a question when neither of us said anything of the sort?

    The issue will likely always be debated because the sedes must insist that the phrase "severed from the Body of the Church" from PPXII is indisputable evidence that heretic popes are outside of the Church, therefore are not popes - as if he said it for that very reason. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12859
    • Reputation: +8158/-2515
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #129 on: November 05, 2025, 12:03:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Pax, are you saying Suarez said that all of the Fathers taught this? 
    No, that's my question.  Was it ALL or just some?

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14985
    • Reputation: +6214/-918
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #130 on: November 05, 2025, 01:15:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, that's my question.  Was it ALL or just some?
     "He states that the Fathers do not teach that excommunicates are placed outside the Church"

    Was it ALL or just some?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12859
    • Reputation: +8158/-2515
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #131 on: November 05, 2025, 02:38:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "He states that the Fathers do not teach that excommunicates are placed outside the Church"

    Was it ALL or just some?
    Suarez would know that claiming that "all the church fathers" taught something, would mean it's infallible.  +Bellarmine would also know this (as well as the other theologians who agreed with +Bellarmine).  I find it hard to believe that this was Suarez' claim.

    If his claim was "most" or "nearly all" then that means it's a speculation, which means that people can disagree.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14985
    • Reputation: +6214/-918
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #132 on: Yesterday at 05:32:44 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Suarez would know that claiming that "all the church fathers" taught something, would mean it's infallible.  +Bellarmine would also know this (as well as the other theologians who agreed with +Bellarmine).  I find it hard to believe that this was Suarez' claim.

    If his claim was "most" or "nearly all" then that means it's a speculation, which means that people can disagree.
    I don't know what you're reading, because Suarez did not claim that all or most of the Church Fathers taught something, he said that "the Fathers do not teach that excommunicates are placed outside the Church..." This is what he used to form his opinion. Suarez lived from 1548-1617. 

    St. Robert lived about the same time, from 1542-1621 and what he says disagrees with Suarez. To form his opinion, St. Robert used Scripture (Mat. 18:17), a canon in the Decree of Gratian (canon law) and reason.

    That's a summary of what it says in that PDF.

    If you read that attachment, it ends up not answering the question at all, but only gives good arguments from both sides. Essentially what it says is that either way, it is up to the Church. Nowhere does it say, imply or otherwise even suggest that priests and laypeople may decide the matter.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 844
    • Reputation: +238/-83
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #133 on: Yesterday at 09:04:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Actually, yes, that's exactly what it is. It is contrary to the whole sede narrative.

    From a previous post in this thread:

    "The question as to whether excommunicates cease to be members of the Church has given rise to quite a controversy among theologians. Suarez is of the opinion that persons under ban of excommunication continue to be members of the Church. He states that the Fathers do not teach that excommunicates are placed outside the Church, but rather that they are separated from communication with the Church : that a person can retain his citizenship in a state and yet be deprived of the society of his fellow-citizens."

    Suarez was after V1 (1548-1617). You asked for a theologian from within about a certain 20 year span of the last century, good luck finding a good one. Suarez is a good one. Now I will play Pax: Are you saying Suarez doesn't know what he is talking about or is a heretic? Is that what you're saying?

    The reference to Suarez does not seem to speak about excommunication due to public heresy.  You seem to be lumping all acts that result in excommunication.  What you fail to realize is that the sin of public heresy is of Divine Law.  So according to you, Martin Luther died a member of the Church.  Correct?

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14985
    • Reputation: +6214/-918
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #134 on: Yesterday at 09:44:25 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The reference to Suarez does not seem to speak about excommunication due to public heresy.  You seem to be lumping all acts that result in excommunication.  What you fail to realize is that the sin of public heresy is of Divine Law.  So according to you, Martin Luther died a member of the Church.  Correct?
    What you fail to realize is that all sin is against Divine Law, heresy is a sin, the worst of all the sins. What we know for sure is that Fr. Martin Luther died a Catholic priest: "Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech."

    The indelible mark of the Sacrament of Baptism on our soul is just as ineradicable as that of Holy Orders.

    You read the post you quoted,it says what it says. Read the post immediately prior to this post of yours.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse