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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure
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Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 31652 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2025, 10:34:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 10:28:46 AM
    The sedes use the idea to dethrone the pope while entirely ignoring or condemning the other side of the argument. All I've been doing in turn is essentially the same to them. I actually have no dog in this fight, they do. They have got to promote and defend the idea lest the cornerstone gives way.   
    Yeah, and i've repeatedly said that their "conclusion" from the idea is wrong.  You've been jumping ahead this whole time, anticipating argument #2 (sedeism), instead of just focusing on argument #1 (loss of membership).  #2 does not follow from #1.

    But the idea of #1 is still important.  
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #91 on: October 29, 2025, 10:51:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 29, 2025, 10:31:46 AM
    :facepalm:  I'm not the one with an agenda.  If it's a debated issue among theologians, then it's debated.

    The point is, the idea that "loss of membership" due to excommunication/heresy/schism is NOT an error.
    The secondary point is that your mind-numbing repetition of "it's quite simple" is proven wrong.  It's not simple.  If it was simple, then highly intellectual theologians like Suarez and St Bellarmine would agree.  But they don't.  So it's not simple.

    Thank you for FINALLY admitting that there's merit to both sides.  :facepalm:
    Its as complicated as you want to make it, and you needlessly make it very complex. 

    From the above book I attached earlier....
    "Excommunication is a medicinal punishment; its primary and immediate purpose is to bring the delinquent back to a sense of duty."

    Too many people here believe it's "primary and immediate purpose" is to kick the sinner completely out of the Church.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #92 on: October 29, 2025, 10:55:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 10:51:50 AM
    Its as complicated as you want to make it, and you needlessly make it very complex.

    From the above book I attached earlier....
    "Excommunication is a medicinal punishment; its primary and immediate purpose is to bring the delinquent back to a sense of duty."

    Too many people here believe it's "primary and immediate purpose" is to kick the sinner completely out of the Church.
    Ok, so again, you're saying +Bellarmine was stupid and he made things overly complex.  :facepalm:  
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #93 on: October 29, 2025, 11:27:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 10:28:46 AM
    The sedes use the idea to dethrone the pope while entirely ignoring or condemning the other side of the argument. All I've been doing in turn is essentially the same to them. I actually have no dog in this fight, they do.
    So, you consider yourself a defender of the truth out to "turn the tables" on the "belligerent sedes" - eh? More sectarianism - oh goody...

    This really does explain your whole mindset and why you would dredge up Suarez's opinion (thanks for that BTW). Did anyone past him really hold it, especially from say 1800 onward? So, it is not the consensus of the theologians if even one theologian held a contrary opinion from 500 years ago! The consensus of the theologians is of little to no value to you? It must feel good and look wonderous to you that you tower above them all in this :facepalm:

    I will add that major excommunication for public formal heretics serves a bigger purpose than just reconciling the sinner. It is meant to prevent the spread of the heresy to the simple. It was Suarez himself that was reiterating scripture when he stated, "heresy spreads like cancer." Declaring the public offending heretic as outside the Church is primarily a safety mechanism to preserve the body of the faithful from the spread of the spiritual disease.

    While the syll    ogism of the SVs contains a weakness as Ladislaw pointed out, it doesn't follow that their understanding on the loss of Church membership is flawed. Even if they are DEAD WRONG     Your argument just looks really purile.

    Thank you for confirming what you are really doing with this whole nonsensical argument - you are not after the truth, but want to "fight" the sedes with their own arguments. Is that what this thread has devolved into, I thought it was about What resistance members believe about heretics being members or not. But, if you "give them an inch" in this, then all your thousands of lines of arguing are really just a total waste of potentially weeks/months of time. It is akin to a gambler who keeps driving himself into more debt, thinking that just walking away would be to much to bear after he has already lost so much, so he creates a fiction in his mind to feed his own delusion.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #94 on: October 29, 2025, 12:02:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 29, 2025, 10:55:57 AM
    Ok, so again, you're saying +Bellarmine was stupid and he made things overly complex.  :facepalm: 
    I have not and do not say that. You really do have poor reading comprehension. I said YOU talk in circles and make the whole issue over complex. The reason I said that is because that's what you so.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #95 on: October 29, 2025, 12:15:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on October 29, 2025, 11:27:11 AM
    So, you consider yourself a defender of the truth out to "turn the tables" on the "belligerent sedes" - eh? More sectarianism - oh goody...
    No. You have no clue and should not pretend as if you do. The whole point of me arguing the matter is that there is an eternal risk to sedes that (some) sedes toy with by their dogmatically vacating the Chair. The risk of them being wrong is there whether they choose to acknowledge it or not, most of the more vociferous sedes here are dogmatically certain that they've guessed correctly, that their opinion is fact due the conciliar popes being heretics. In reality I hope they are right because the price is too high for them to have guessed wrong.   
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #96 on: October 29, 2025, 12:22:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 12:15:27 PM
    No. You have no clue and should not pretend as if you do. The whole point of me arguing the matter is that there is an eternal risk to sedes that (some) sedes toy with by their dogmatically vacating the Chair. The risk of them being wrong is there whether they choose to acknowledge it or not, most of the more vociferous sedes here are dogmatically certain that they've guessed correctly, that their opinion is fact due the conciliar popes being heretics. In reality I hope they are right because the price is too high for them to have guessed wrong. 
    Pretend about what? that the definitions of the theological consensus on heresy and membership are wrong - like you do?

    Or no clue about the "sedes being in danger" like you claim?

    What possible danger exists for one who says that they are not Popes due to their heresy and wrecking the visible Church VS. one who says they are Popes but calls them heretics and never obeys them i.e. is "subject" to them?

    Neither are subject to the actual Pope.

    If sedes are wrong they are not subject to the actual Pope.
    If resisters are wrong they are not subject to the actual Pope.

    If sedes are right they are not subject to the false Pope.
    If resisters are wrong they are not subject to the actual Pope.

    Both can endlessly point out potential implicit heresy in the beliefs of the other, neither is subject to a living Roman Pontiff.

    capsice?

    How does conflating your opinion and need to fight/save the sedes from their "error" aid in the pursuit of the knowledge of the Church's teaching on heresy and the loss of membership?

    It doesn't.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #97 on: October 29, 2025, 12:30:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 12:02:37 PM
    I have not and do not say that. You really do have poor reading comprehension. I said YOU talk in circles and make the whole issue over complex. The reason I said that is because that's what you so.
    Bellarmine maintains that excommunicates cease to be members of the Church. He argues in the first place from the text in Saint Matthew's Gospel : " If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."  He draws his second argument from a canon in the Decree of Gratian which reads as follows......


    Stubborn, please explain to me why my saying that heretics lose membership is complex, while when +Bellarmine says they "cease to be members" is not complex.  :popcorn:
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #98 on: October 29, 2025, 12:36:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Everlast22 on October 29, 2025, 09:24:47 AM
    Would you say that to his face? just curious.
    Me, too!  (Get it?) :jester:

    Jackass!  Moron!  Just plain stupid! :fryingpan:

    I ❤️ intelligent discourse. :laugh1::laugh2:
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #99 on: October 29, 2025, 01:08:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on October 29, 2025, 12:22:53 PM
    Pretend about what? that the definitions of the theological consensus on heresy and membership are wrong - like you do?

    Or no clue about the "sedes being in danger" like you claim?

    What possible danger exists for one who says that they are not Popes due to their heresy and wrecking the visible Church VS. one who says they are Popes but calls them heretics and never obeys them i.e. is "subject" to them?

    Neither are subject to the actual Pope.

    If sedes are wrong they are not subject to the actual Pope.
    If resisters are wrong they are not subject to the actual Pope.

    If sedes are right they are not subject to the false Pope.
    If resisters are wrong they are not subject to the actual Pope.

    Both can endlessly point out potential implicit heresy in the beliefs of the other, neither is subject to a living Roman Pontiff.

    capsice?

    How does conflating your opinion and need to fight/save the sedes from their "error" aid in the pursuit of the knowledge of the Church's teaching on heresy and the loss of membership?

    It doesn't.
    Think about it.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #100 on: October 29, 2025, 01:11:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 29, 2025, 12:30:31 PM
    Bellarmine maintains that excommunicates cease to be members of the Church. He argues in the first place from the text in Saint Matthew's Gospel : " If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."  He draws his second argument from a canon in the Decree of Gratian which reads as follows......


    Stubborn, please explain to me why my saying that heretics lose membership is complex, while when +Bellarmine says they "cease to be members" is not complex.  :popcorn:
    If you actually ever said they lose their membership, that would be one thing. But you dance up,down and all around, they are but they aren't, they're Catholic but not members and on and on - that is the complexity you bring.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #101 on: October 29, 2025, 01:22:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 01:08:13 PM
    Think about it.
    :confused: a dogmatic reisister then...

    dogmatic sedes say, "If you are wrong you may go to hell for saying Leo is Pope."

    dogmatic resisters like Stubborn say, "You may go to hell for saying Leo is NOT Pope."

    The only thing that is clear is that one, both, or neither may go to hell for other sins that are entirely unrelated to either "dogma".

    But, now please elaborate, because you make the claim that the sedes are in danger of losing their salvation - why do you think that?

    What are YOU doing/believing that they don't - that they NEED to - in order to be more secure in their salvation?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #102 on: October 29, 2025, 01:26:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 01:11:55 PM
    If you actually ever said they lose their membership, that would be one thing. But you dance up,down and all around, they are but they aren't, they're Catholic but not members and on and on - that is the complexity you bring.
    You didn't answer the question.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #103 on: October 29, 2025, 01:36:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on October 29, 2025, 01:22:16 PM
    :confused: a dogmatic reisister then...

    dogmatic sedes say, "If you are wrong you may go to hell for saying Leo is Pope."

    dogmatic resisters like Stubborn say, "You may go to hell for saying Leo is NOT Pope."

    The only thing that is clear is that one, both, or neither may go to hell for other sins that are entirely unrelated to either "dogma".

    But, now please elaborate, because you make the claim that the sedes are in danger of losing their salvation - why do you think that?

    What are YOU doing/believing that they don't - that they NEED to - in order to be more secure in their salvation?
    I don't guess. I believe that our knowledge of his sins in no way qualifies us to declare the pope deprived of his office, or never to have been elected.

    My position is the default position, i.e. is he is pope because he was elected according to the law, all the cardinals accept him as pope and we must also. I think to paraphrase St. Thomas More is the position Catholic's are supposed to take: "I remain the pope's good subject, but God's first" - per the highest principle in the Church - see my sig.

       
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #104 on: October 29, 2025, 01:37:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 29, 2025, 01:26:43 PM
    You didn't answer the question.
    I said, it's not the least bit complex, certainly not as complex as you make it. 

     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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