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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure
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Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 18190 times)

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2025, 08:06:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 06:17:27 AM
      No, I cannot. I imagine it's out there somewhere but I'm not going to spend time searching for something that is a basic Catholic principle. 
    Which, principle is that? 

    A) The consensus of the theologians that those who fall into public, formal, manifest heresy lose their membership status in the Church?

    Or,

    B) Your non-sourced opinion that, "Once a member always a member."?

    It seems the disagreement is mainly over how someone who was a heretic could "rejoin" the Church.

    If someone can go back and forth a million times from being a dead to living member of the Church...then why do you not understand that someone can lose and regain membership status due to loss faith - even while the baptismal character remains?

    Faith is the virtue that unites someone to the Mystical Body, without it, they cannot be joined to Her, a public, formal, manifest heretic is ruled to be outside the Church due to their lack of faith - as exhibited by their unwillingness to be corrected by the Church authorities. 

    Follow the consensus of the theologians on this...

    Or,

    Stubborn..

    I am starting to see why the name fits...
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #76 on: October 29, 2025, 08:08:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 06:38:59 AM
    I said use yourself as an example, not Luther. The reason I said that is because in this day and age, all the above is simply not gonna happen to any one no matter what the sin is.

    So use yourself as an example: You become a manifest heretic, but 10 years from now your conscience is eating you alive and you resolve to repent. What do *you* do? You go to a trad priest and he absolves you. He may or may not have you make an abjuration or profession of faith or whatever, but he *will* absolve you.
    All things considered, it is actually quite amazing how easy it is for a Catholic to be absolved vs absolutely impossible for a non-Catholic to be absolved.  
    No, moron, we're talking about major heretics, not normal people like me.  You keep changing the argument so that your example of getting absolution from a priest works.  You're a bad-willed idiot. 

    Quote
    How many times do I have to repeat myself? Again, I said: "it depends on the authority [who issued the penalty], the heretic and the censure that is attached to the sin, and if it is reserved to the Holy See, or to the bishop, or whatever other penalties/requirements are part of that censure."
    THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT...MAJOR HERESY from guys like Luther and V2 clerics.  THESE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH A PAPAL PROCESS OF ABJURATION.  You keep repeating that priests can remove censures....HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CASES WHERE PRIESTS CAN DO SUCH...WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MAJOR CASES OF EXCOMMUNICATION.

    You're like a brick wall.  I'm done.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #77 on: October 29, 2025, 08:45:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 29, 2025, 08:03:32 AM
    You are either bad-willed or just plain stupid.  Nobody said the part in red; you just made it up.  :facepalm:
    Your the one who is either bad-willed or just plain stupid. You keep talking in circles. Try to read what is written and understand it as it is written. Not sure what you're even reading half the time.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #78 on: October 29, 2025, 08:49:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 29, 2025, 08:08:54 AM
    No, moron, we're talking about major heretics, not normal people like me.  You keep changing the argument so that your example of getting absolution from a priest works.  You're a bad-willed idiot. 
    THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT...MAJOR HERESY from guys like Luther and V2 clerics.  THESE PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH A PAPAL PROCESS OF ABJURATION.  You keep repeating that priests can remove censures....HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CASES WHERE PRIESTS CAN DO SUCH...WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MAJOR CASES OF EXCOMMUNICATION.

    You're like a brick wall.  I'm done.
    No  jackass, you're talking about major heretics, either way they cannot be absolved unless they are members, regardless of an abjuration.

    Good, go away.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #79 on: October 29, 2025, 08:53:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on October 29, 2025, 08:06:14 AM
    Which, principle is that?

    A) The consensus of the theologians that those who fall into public, formal, manifest heresy lose their membership status in the Church?
    So now they did not lose membership, now they lose their membership status. Got it.

    Look, all you gotta do is remember that the Church can never absolve non-members, the Church can only absolve members.  It's really not the least bit complicated.

    If you can figure out how a non-member can be absolved, please post it. 

     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #80 on: October 29, 2025, 09:23:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 08:49:27 AM
    No  jackass, you're talking about major heretics, either way they cannot be absolved unless they are members, regardless of an abjuration.

    Good, go away.
    :facepalm:  Heresy makes them non-members, because they reject the faith.  The abjuration makes them regain membership, because they have re-accepted the Faith.

    Your idea that no one loses membership, ever, is probably a heresy as well.  It contradicts multiple popes and saints.

    Baptism is only for INITIAL membership.  As we've often heard the phrase, "he lost the faith" of sinners/heretics.  This is the same as becoming a non-member.  :facepalm:
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    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #81 on: October 29, 2025, 09:24:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 08:49:27 AM
    No  jackass, you're talking about major heretics, either way they cannot be absolved unless they are members, regardless of an abjuration.

    Good, go away.
    Would you say that to his face? just curious. 
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #82 on: October 29, 2025, 09:40:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 08:45:58 AM
     Try to read what is written and understand it as it is written. 
    As it is written:


    Quote
    [The Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.

    Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino


    Quote
    The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodore :, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. “No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic” (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88). 

    Pope Leo XII, Satis Cognitum




    Quote
    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed

    ...

    For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy


    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis

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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #83 on: October 29, 2025, 09:53:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Everlast22 on October 29, 2025, 09:24:47 AM
    Would you say that to his face? just curious.
    I sure would. Not sure I would if he was an enemy tho, but Pax is just being Pax.

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 29, 2025, 09:23:35 AM
    :facepalm:  Heresy makes them non-members, because they reject the faith.  The abjuration makes them regain membership, because they have re-accepted the Faith.

    Your idea that no one loses membership, ever, is probably a heresy as well.  It contradicts multiple popes and saints.

    Baptism is only for INITIAL membership.  As we've often heard the phrase, "he lost the faith" of sinners/heretics.  This is the same as becoming a non-member.  :facepalm:
    This book (pdf attached) was referenced in my pdf of the 1917 Code of Canon Law.

    Here is an answer to SRC.......

    The question as to whether excommunicates cease to be members of the Church has given rise to quite a controversy among theologians. Suarez is of the opinion that persons under ban of excommunication continue to be members of the Church. He states that the Fathers do not teach that excommunicates are placed outside the Church, but rather that they are separated from communication with the Church : that a person can retain his citizenship in a state and yet be deprived of the society
    of his fellow-citizens.

    Bellarmine maintains that excommunicates cease to be members of the Church. He argues in the first place from the text in Saint Matthew's Gospel : " If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."  He draws his second argument from a canon in the Decree of Gratian which reads as follows......

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #84 on: October 29, 2025, 10:18:26 AM »
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #85 on: October 29, 2025, 10:20:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 09:53:05 AM
    I sure would. Not sure I would if he was an enemy tho, but Pax is just being Pax.
    This book (pdf attached) was referenced in my pdf of the 1917 Code of Canon Law.

    Here is an answer to SRC.......

    The question as to whether excommunicates cease to be members of the Church has given rise to quite a controversy among theologians. Suarez is of the opinion that persons under ban of excommunication continue to be members of the Church. He states that the Fathers do not teach that excommunicates are placed outside the Church, but rather that they are separated from communication with the Church : that a person can retain his citizenship in a state and yet be deprived of the society
    of his fellow-citizens.

    Bellarmine maintains that excommunicates cease to be members of the Church. He argues in the first place from the text in Saint Matthew's Gospel : " If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."  He draws his second argument from a canon in the Decree of Gratian which reads as follows......
    Ok, so you finally admit that the idea of losing membership is not new, nor is it a creation of some wacko-sedes.  :facepalm:  Good grief, man.  This is the first time in probably 5 years that's you've FINALLY ADMITTED that the idea of lost membership isn't made up.  
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #86 on: October 29, 2025, 10:20:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 09:53:05 AM
    I sure would. Not sure I would if he was an enemy tho, but Pax is just being Pax.
    This book (pdf attached) was referenced in my pdf of the 1917 Code of Canon Law.
    Pax, I don't think you're going to like this book too much, maybe a little, but that's all.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #87 on: October 29, 2025, 10:28:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 29, 2025, 10:20:28 AM
    Ok, so you finally admit that the idea of losing membership is not new, nor is it a creation of some wacko-sedes.  :facepalm:  Good grief, man.  This is the first time in probably 5 years that's you've FINALLY ADMITTED that the idea of lost membership isn't made up. 
    The sedes use the idea to dethrone the pope while entirely ignoring or condemning the other side of the argument. All I've been doing in turn is essentially the same to them. I actually have no dog in this fight, they do. They have got to promote and defend the idea lest the cornerstone gives way.     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #88 on: October 29, 2025, 10:30:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Everlast22 on October 29, 2025, 10:18:26 AM
    No you wouldn't. lol
    Sure I would. If he was an actual enemy I probably would just walk away. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #89 on: October 29, 2025, 10:31:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 29, 2025, 10:20:48 AM
    Pax, I don't think you're going to like this book too much, maybe a little, but that's all.
    :facepalm:  I'm not the one with an agenda.  If it's a debated issue among theologians, then it's debated.

    The point is, the idea that "loss of membership" due to excommunication/heresy/schism is NOT an error.
    The secondary point is that your mind-numbing repetition of "it's quite simple" is proven wrong.  It's not simple.  If it was simple, then highly intellectual theologians like Suarez and St Bellarmine would agree.  But they don't.  So it's not simple.

    Thank you for FINALLY admitting that there's merit to both sides.  :facepalm:
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