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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure

Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 11867 times)

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Online Stubborn

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2025, 09:31:52 AM »
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  • Stubborn, we’ve been through this.  Major heresies cannot be abjured by a priest or in confession.  Martin Luther could NOT abjure his heresy in confession.  His sin was too public for that.  He had to be summoned to Rome, for a papal inquest and then formally and publicly abjure. 

    Yes, a simple heresy can be abjured by a simple confession.  But the V2 popes and modernists are at the level of error of Martin Luther.  Confession doesn’t cut it.  A public abjuration would be necessary so ALL THE FAITHFUL WORLDWIDE would know that these guys repent and were wrong.  We know this won’t happen, but that’s what it would take for them to get back into the Church.
    So what? 

    Fr. Luther only had to abjure his heresies to be absolved - yet, he remained a Catholic priest in the sin of heresy through it all. And yet the no good heretic could still do what all Catholic priests do, namely, administer the sacraments in dire emergencies. Since his death, it is to his everlasting shame that he will always be a Catholic priest for all eternity. The evil excommunicated heretic, apostate and schismatic that he was, he never ceased being a Catholic priest.    

    There is a difference there even if no one wants to admit it. The difference is between one who was never Catholic having to go through at least a few months to a year of instruction and THEN become a member of the Church before finally being absolved in confession, and a Catholic who has to make an abjuration of heresy, even if that's before the whole world, and then be absolved in confession.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #31 on: October 20, 2025, 10:01:35 AM »
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  •  There is a difference there even if no one wants to admit it. The difference is between one who was never Catholic having to go through at least a few months to a year of instruction and THEN become a member of the Church before finally being absolved in confession, and a Catholic who has to make an abjuration of heresy, even if that's before the whole world, and then be absolved in confession.
    Yes, the difference between Martin Luther (a catholic) and a guy like Charlie Kirk (protestant).  Yes, it's a big difference.  Your point is well taken.

    Quote
    Fr. Luther only had to abjure his heresies to be absolved - yet, he remained a Catholic priest in the sin of heresy through it all. And yet the no good heretic could still do what all Catholic priests do, namely, administer the sacraments in dire emergencies. Since his death, it is to his everlasting shame that he will always be a Catholic priest for all eternity. The evil excommunicated heretic, apostate and schismatic that he was, he never ceased being a Catholic priest. 
    Yes, we get your point.  He's still a priest.

    But your ignoring the other problem.  Luther was excommunicated, just like all modern-day Modernists.  Masons, heretics, etc are in a state of MAJOR excommunication (and all manner of canon law penalties).  These CANNOT be removed simply by confession.

    There's a process; a public meeting; a trial.  (assuming the Church was operating at full, anti-heretical capacity).  So a 'public, manifest heretic' can be forgiven ONLY AFTER they abjure their heresy.

    It's like a thief who stole $100,000.  Can they simply go to confession?  No.  They must also do restitution and pay the money back.

    Can an excommunicated heretic simply go to confession?  No.  They must make PUBLIC restitution and PUBLIC abjuration of heresies, towards the public, whom they scandalized and led into sin.

    Do you get the point?


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #32 on: October 20, 2025, 11:20:21 AM »
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  • Yes, the difference between Martin Luther (a catholic) and a guy like Charlie Kirk (protestant).  Yes, it's a big difference.  Your point is well taken.
    Yes, we get your point.  He's still a priest.

    But your ignoring the other problem.  Luther was excommunicated, just like all modern-day Modernists.  Masons, heretics, etc are in a state of MAJOR excommunication (and all manner of canon law penalties).  These CANNOT be removed simply by confession.

    There's a process; a public meeting; a trial.  (assuming the Church was operating at full, anti-heretical capacity).  So a 'public, manifest heretic' can be forgiven ONLY AFTER they abjure their heresy.

    It's like a thief who stole $100,000.  Can they simply go to confession?  No.  They must also do restitution and pay the money back.

    Can an excommunicated heretic simply go to confession?  No.  They must make PUBLIC restitution and PUBLIC abjuration of heresies, towards the public, whom they scandalized and led into sin.

    Do you get the point?
    I get your point of course, but you are mixed up.

     Yes, an excommunicant can simply go to confession - depending, as I already said: "it depends on the authority [who issued the penalty], the heretic and the censure that is attached to the sin, and if it is reserved to the Holy See, or to the bishop, or whatever other penalties/requirements are part of that censure."
     
    Otherwise, why, in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance, is there is a general absolution from the censures  of the Church? It is because an excommunicated heretic can simply go to confession - depending on what I said above in italics - have the censure lifted and then be absolved by the priest.

    You're failing to consider that in-between making the abjuration and being absolved, the heretic is still a heretic because not having been absolved yet he still has the sin of heresy on his soul. Abjuration is not a way to self absolve.   

    What this means is that a Catholic with the sin of heresy, whom you insist is not a member, is indeed receiving a sacrament that only members of the Church may receive.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #33 on: October 26, 2025, 04:15:36 PM »
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  • A Catholic who is guilty of  heresy commits a mortal sin. Heresy is the worst of all the sins, that is what heresy is, a sin. The only way a Catholic can be absolved of mortal sin is through confession. 

    IF the censure attached to the sin requires an abjuration then so be it, once completed in what, 60 seconds? 2 minutes? 3 minutes? they then would walk right into the confessional to be absolved exactly the same as you and I and all Catholics have done all of our lives.

    Whereas as typically, the priest always presumes our contrition and firm purpose of amendment prior to absolution, the censure attached to the sin of heresy requires the heretic to profess as much with the abjuration, privately or publicly. 

    Compare that to a heretic who was never Catholic and wanted to repent. Before they could go to confession they would first have to become a member of the Church through all the usual catechetical instructions etc.,

    This is basic Catholicism, it is not complicated. It really is not the least bit complicated.

    Provide evidence that Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis did not mean by the term "separation" that a Catholic becomes a non-Catholic by the public sin of heresy.  I have provided you evidence that the term "separation" does mean that a Catholic becomes a non-Catholic by the public sin of heresy.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 05:28:24 AM »
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  • Provide evidence that Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis did not mean by the term "separation" that a Catholic becomes a non-Catholic by the public sin of heresy.  I have provided you evidence that the term "separation" does mean that a Catholic becomes a non-Catholic by the public sin of heresy.
    Ok, so you agree that heresy is a sin, a mortal sin - the worst of all the sins. The question is, how can a penitent Catholic obtain absolution from the sin of heresy? 

    1917 Canon 2314

    § 1. All apostates from the Christian faith and each and every heretic or schismatic:
    1.° Incur by that fact excommunication"

    What is excommunication?
    Excommunication is a censure attached to certain sins (the sin of heresy in this case) by the (1917) Code of Canon Law.

    What is a censure?
    From Commentary on the 1917 Code of Canon Law (pdf attached)....
    "1525. A censure is a penalty by which a subject (by Baptism) of the Church is deprived of some spiritual benefits, or of benefits connected with matters spiritual, because of obstinate violation of some law of the Church, until such time as he repents and obtains absolution."

    Note that, contrary to popular opinion, per (1917) Canon Law, the censure of excommunication does not mean that one is outside of the Church, what the censure means is said above.

    What all of this means, is that the penitent Catholic guilty of the sin of heresy, whether the bishop decides an abjuration is required or not,  can do that which only members of the Church can do - walk into the confessional, confess his sin to the priest and be absolved by the priest. This is because in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance, there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church. 

    Honestly, all any trad needs to do is use themselves as an example, i.e. what would they do if (God forbid) they fell into the sin of heresy and wanted to repent?   



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 08:39:48 AM »
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  • I get your point of course, but you are mixed up.

     Yes, an excommunicant can simply go to confession - depending, as I already said: "it depends on the authority [who issued the penalty], the heretic and the censure that is attached to the sin, and if it is reserved to the Holy See, or to the bishop, or whatever other penalties/requirements are part of that censure."
     
    Otherwise, why, in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance, is there is a general absolution from the censures  of the Church? It is because an excommunicated heretic can simply go to confession - depending on what I said above in italics - have the censure lifted and then be absolved by the priest.
    Because a censure is a low level canon law punishment, which (most) priests are allowed to forgive.  An excommunication is the highest level, and there are various levels of these too.  A person like Martin Luther (or the current Pope Leo, or Cardinal Dolan...really bad heretics), who have the highest excommunication penalty, they CANNOT be forgiven these canon law penalties by a simple priest, in confession.  No, per canon law, it requires a formal process.  A formal hearing.  Or...it would require such AND THEN it would require a papal forgiveness or by a bishop or some roman official.  After the heretic recants his heresy (abjuration), THEN he goes to confession.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 09:46:58 AM »
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  • Because a censure is a low level canon law punishment, which (most) priests are allowed to forgive.  An excommunication is the highest level, and there are various levels of these too.
    I supplied the definition from Canon Law's Commentary on what a censure is. You change it from that to "a low level canon law punishment." Better to stick to what the commentary says Pax, it's plain and clear, your idea of what it is is your idea.

    I already posted above that the censure of excommunication can have various different penalties/remedies attached to it depending on the sin and the judge (e.g. pope or bishop). But in the end, the censure of excommunication means what is defined in my previous post. Period. You can add whatever other conditions you feel you need to, but you or anyone should not be dong that. 

    Quote
      A person like Martin Luther (or the current Pope Leo, or Cardinal Dolan...really bad heretics), who have the highest excommunication penalty, they CANNOT be forgiven these canon law penalties by a simple priest, in confession.  No, per canon law, it requires a formal process.  A formal hearing.  Or...it would require such AND THEN it would require a papal forgiveness or by a bishop or some roman official.  After the heretic recants his heresy (abjuration), THEN he goes to confession.
    Ok.

    So Deo Gratias now that the penitent heretic pope or cardinal or layman or whomever went through the "formal process," he is still a heretic because all the heretic did was essentially promise to repent, made a profession of faith and promised to be faithful till he dies. Right? HE IS STILL A HERETIC BECAUSE HE STILL HAS THE SIN OF HERESY ON HIS SOUL BECAUSE HE HAS NOT YET BEEN ABSOLVED. Here you need to admit that the "formal process" does not absolve anyone from their sin of heresy.

    So lets say that Catholics in the sin of heresy are outside of the Church - if that is so then he cannot partake of the sacrament of penance even after completing the "formal process", not even to the pope, because having the sin of heresy on his soul he is still not a member of the Church because he is still a heretic. No abjuration or "formal process"can absolve him from that sin.

    Among other important aspects, the "formal process" proves to the confessor that the heretic really wants to repent and be absolved. Normally, this is something that the confessor always initially presumes for all Catholic sinners who walk into the confessional, that's why a "formal process" for all penitent sinners going to confession is not required.  

    I am saying "formal process" or not, he is still a heretic until he receives absolution - the only way for that to happen is for the heretic to walk into the confessional and be absolved exactly the same as only members of the Church are permitted to do.

    Maybe this is all too simple, I don't know.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 10:14:08 AM »
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  • I supplied the definition from Canon Law's Commentary on what a censure is. You change it from that to "a low level canon law punishment." Better to stick to what the commentary says Pax, it's plain and clear, your idea of what it is is your idea.
    I misspoke.  A censure is a general term.  An excommunication is a TYPE of censure.  All excommunications are censures, but not all censures are excommunications.

    Quote
    So Deo Gratias now that the penitent heretic pope or cardinal or layman or whomever went through the "formal process," he is still a heretic because all the heretic did was essentially promise to repent, made a profession of faith and promised to be faithful till he dies. Right? HE IS STILL A HERETIC BECAUSE HE STILL HAS THE SIN OF HERESY ON HIS SOUL BECAUSE HE HAS NOT YET BEEN ABSOLVED. Here you need to admit that the "formal process" does not absolve anyone from their sin of heresy.
    I never said the formal process means that he is forgiven, but...it is a sign that he's repentant.  Which is a necessary sign/step, per canon law.

    Quote
    So lets say that Catholics in the sin of heresy are outside of the Church 
    I've never said this.

    Quote
    - if that is so then he cannot partake of the sacrament of penance even after completing the "formal process", not even to the pope, because having the sin of heresy on his soul he is still not a member of the Church because he is still a heretic. No abjuration or "formal process"can absolve him from that sin.
    The whole point of the "formal process" is to determine if the person is willing to recant his heresy and come back to the Church.  If he is NOT WILLING TO RECANT, then even if he were to go to confession, he would NOT be forgiven.

    Example:  A thief steals $10,000.  He can go to confession and ask forgiveness, but if he's not willing to give back the $, confession is worthless.  If he gives back the money, THEN he can go to confession.  

    Major heresy is the same way.  A heretic is excommunicated (i.e. put on probation).  ONLY AFTER they promise to amend, recant their heresies, and formally rejoin the Church, will the Church give permission for a confession to be valid.  Martin Luther could've gone to confession 500x prior to his meeting with the Church authorities, but none of these confessions would've been valid, because Christ allows the Church to "bind", in this case, and create canon law penalties which are ADDITIONAL penalties for certain sins.

    Quote
    I am saying "formal process" or not, he is still a heretic until he receives absolution - the only way for that to happen is for the heretic to walk into the confessional and be absolved exactly the same as only members of the Church are permitted to do.
    If a heretic repents, recants his errors and wants to rejoin the Church then they are no longer a heretic, because they have rejected the heresy.  A heretic is one who holds/believes an error.  Once a person repents of this error and accepts truth again, they are no longer a heretic.  Which is the whole point of the "formal process"...to re-convert the heretic back to a catholic.

    Once this is accomplished, then the SIN of heresy is forgiven in confession.

    Just like the thief who promises to pay back the money and amend his life, is no longer a thief (i.e. spiritually speaking, because his promise to amend is required for confession).



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 10:45:40 AM »
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  • If a heretic is a major, public, heretic, then he incurs 2 penalties - 1) the sin of heresy and 2) the penalties of the Church, which is excommunication.

    A heretic must FIRST be forgiven/reconciled BY THE CHURCH (i.e. through the formal process) and THEN he can be reconciled to God (through confession).

    God will not forgive in confession, a heretic who has not humbled himself before the Church (....except in danger of death).

    Excommunication means a person is 'severed from the Church' (spiritually, due to their sin and also due to canon law).  Some popes use the term 'lose membership'.  Some saints use the term 'outside the church' (excommunication LITERALLY means to "deprive one of membership").

    The error of those who debate this topic is a lack of distinguishment. 
    An excommunicated catholic is, by definition, 'not a member' of the Church.
    A heretic, by definition, is 'not a member' of the Church.
    But...a hindu is also 'not a member' of the Church.

    Is a hindu's lack of membership the same as a heretic's lack of membership?  Of course not.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 11:41:38 AM »
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  • I misspoke.  A censure is a general term.  An excommunication is a TYPE of censure.  All excommunications are censures, but not all censures are excommunications.
    I don't know where you come up with the stuff you're saying, but I can show you where I come up with what I'm saying.....by definition (see attached from pre-V2 Catholic Dictionary), it begins: "Excommunication is an ecclesiastical censure which excludes a person from the communion of the faithful with consequent disabilities and deprivations."
    Note that it does not say that they are no longer members.

    Quote
    I never said the formal process means that he is forgiven, but...it is a sign that he's repentant.  Which is a necessary sign/step, per canon law.
    I already said: "Among other important aspects, the "formal process" proves to the confessor that the heretic really wants to repent and be absolved." 

    Basically the rest of your whole post says what I already said.

    But the heresies and conditions pertaining to Luther cannot be compared to the conciliar popes anyway. Whereas the popes all believe that their heresies are actual Church teachings, Luther flat out told the Church to go to hell and that she was wrong. Luther hated everything about the faith, the Church, and the pope - and preached against pretty much all things Catholic on purpose - and he was still a Catholic priest. Guaranteed he faced God as a Catholic priest and in hell, to his everlasting shame, he will remain a Catholic priest forever, because: "Thou art a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #40 on: Yesterday at 11:49:12 AM »
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  • Heresy doesn’t take away the priesthood.  That has nothing to do with the discussion. 


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #41 on: Yesterday at 11:50:38 AM »
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  • Heresy doesn’t take away the priesthood.  
    I know that.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 12:23:16 PM »
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  • "Excommunication is an ecclesiastical censure which excludes a person from the communion of the faithful with consequent disabilities and deprivations."

    Note that it does not say that they are no longer members.
    Notice the definition above uses the phrase "communion of the faithful".  If someone isn't part of the communion of the faithful, then they aren't a member.  THAT'S THE ARGUMENT.  How can one be a member if they aren't part of the faithful?  A catechumen isn't part of the faithful, and that's why they aren't a member.

    As I explained, if one just leaves it at that, saying "a heretic isn't a member" then that is a partial truth.  Because an excommunicated person, IS still a catholic, but not a member of the Church.  THAT is the distinction.  

    Quote
    But the heresies and conditions pertaining to Luther cannot be compared to the conciliar popes anyway. Whereas the popes all believe that their heresies are actual Church teachings, Luther flat out told the Church to go to hell and that she was wrong.
    Irrelevant to Church law.  The distinction you are making is in regards to the internal forum and their degree of guilt for the sin.  But in regards to canon law, V2 heretics are equally as guilty as Luther.  In fact, V2 clerics would be MORE guilty because Luther was a simple priest, while V2 clerics are more educated, more learned and have more graces of state.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #43 on: Yesterday at 01:19:08 PM »
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  • Notice the definition above uses the phrase "communion of the faithful".  If someone isn't part of the communion of the faithful, then they aren't a member.  THAT'S THE ARGUMENT.  How can one be a member if they aren't part of the faithful?  A catechumen isn't part of the faithful, and that's why they aren't a member.
    It excludes a person from the communion of the faithful with consequent disabilities and deprivations." The disabilities and deprivations mean that the consequences of their sin is that, they cannot receive communion, cannot be a sponsor, cannot sing in the choir, cannot be  an usher and so on. They are excluded and deprived from participating in some of the community activities due to their sin. 

    A catechumen is not a member, hence not a Catholic, not a part of the faithful because they never were. That's why the catechumen is not a member. They will never be a member until they are baptized and profess the Catholic faith.  


    Quote
    As I explained, if one just leaves it at that, saying "a heretic isn't a member" then that is a partial truth.  Because an excommunicated person, IS still a catholic, but not a member of the Church.  THAT is the distinction. 
    Irrelevant to Church law.  The distinction you are making is in regards to the internal forum and their degree of guilt for the sin.
    That is double talk, not a partial truth. One cannot be a Catholic, but at the same time not be a member of the Catholic Church. He may not be a member of the local Church, but he is still a member with all the benefits the Church offers only to her members, all he needs to do is repent and be absolved to take advantage of them. 


    Quote
    But in regards to canon law, V2 heretics are equally as guilty as Luther.  In fact, V2 clerics would be MORE guilty because Luther was a simple priest, while V2 clerics are more educated, more learned and have more graces of state.
    St. Thomas Aquinas was a simple priest, so that idea doesn't fly.

    Nope, the conciliar popes and hierarchy are only material heretics because they believe that they are carrying on the Church's Mission. That is what they believe. It is impossible to prove otherwise without them admitting that they know they are preaching heresy, or they would have to insist that the Church's teaching are wrong and they're right, or they are officially accused with an itemized list of their heresies by the bishops or cardinals - and then the popes would have to refuse to recant their heresies.

    I agree they SHOULD know better, and that before God they are culpable for losing the faith and preaching heresies, but what we cannot do is accuse them of manifest, formal heresy - because that is judging the internal forum, which is something the Church does not do.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 01:44:24 PM »
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  • It excludes a person from the communion of the faithful with consequent disabilities and deprivations." The disabilities and deprivations mean that the consequences of their sin is that, they cannot receive communion, cannot be a sponsor, cannot sing in the choir, cannot be  an usher and so on. They are excluded and deprived from participating in some of the community activities due to their sin.  
    They aren't excluded from "some" activities, but nearly all.  Save repentance/confession.

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    That is double talk, not a partial truth. One cannot be a Catholic, but at the same time not be a member of the Catholic Church. 
    :facepalm:  Yes.  It all depends on how you define "member".  You're defining it in the most general way possible -- a baptized person = member.  This true.  But there are OTHER ways to define the term.

    Is a baptized protestant a member?
    Is a baptized self-avowed apostate a member?
    Is a baptized excommunicant a member?

    Yes and no.  Yes, they are a baptized member.  No, they are not an ACTIVE member.  That's the difference.  That's why the popes can say that a heretic "severs himself from the mystical body" while not denying that he is still a member due to baptism.  You see the difference?

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    Nope, the conciliar popes and hierarchy are only material heretics because they believe that they are carrying on the Church's Mission. 
    Material vs formal heresy has nothing to do with intention, nor with the internal forum.

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    I agree they SHOULD know better, and that before God they are culpable for losing the faith and preaching heresies, but what we cannot do is accuse them of manifest, formal heresy - because that is judging the internal forum, which is something the Church does not do. 
    Manifest/formal heresy has nothing to do with the internal forum.