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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure

Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 8331 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2025, 02:16:58 PM »
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  • We should certainly try to understand the terms.

    Pertinacity is one of the most incorrectly used terms.  Let's understand it by contrast.  Priest utters a heresy.  You point it out and he says it was a slip of the tongue.  Not petinacious.  You point it out, he looks it up, and he says, "oh, my bad ..." and retracts the view.  Not pertinacious.

    Those are the types of things that pertinacity rules out, so someone doesn't lose membership for merely uttering a heresy.

    Now, pertinacity does not require someone to consciously think, "I know that the Church teaches this and that it's heretical to deny it, and I deny it anyway."  That degree of conscious and deliberate rejection of dogma is not required, and there has been an attempt by R&R to turn pertinacity into some phenomenon that can only be discerned in the internal forum.

    It suffices for petinacity that someone repeatedly make the assertion (so not a slip of the tongue or simple mistake) and appear to be very strongly in favor of it, i.e. for them to adhere to it.

    Bergoglio, for instance, and actually all the other V2 papal claimants as well, teach the heresy that there can be salvation outside the Church, that the Old Covenant continues in force and is salvific for the Jews (the heresy Father Kramer points out) ... and they're certainly PERTINACIOUS about it.  They say it over and over again and teach it, and they're clearly adhering to it as something they strongly believe in.  That suffices for pertinacity.  Period.  There's no requirement to discern the internal forum, nor is that ordinarily possible.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #16 on: October 18, 2025, 08:07:51 AM »
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  • I don't think so because your #1 and #2 merely state that the sin of heresy was being committed. Certainly all heresies are in direct contradiction to what the Church teaches, but for the sake of argument, your #s 1 and 2 were coming out of the mouth of an infidel, a prot minister, or a prot child for that matter. In these cases, I don't think we can say with certainty that they are speaking manifest heresy.

    Instead of saying "One who knowingly...." You could have phrased it: "A Catholic who knowingly..."  in this way it would have been more clear I think that the person was guilty of the sin of heresy. 

    But all non-Catholics, all of those outside of the Church, all non-members cannot receive the sacraments. So if this Catholic guilty of the sin of heresy, per the OP is ipso facto outside of the Church, then he cannot simply go to confession and be absolved as if he is a member of the Church, again, this is per the OP.

    In reality, manifest heresy is a mortal sin, for this particular sin the Church attaches a censure, the censure of excommunication. In confession, in the traditional formula for absolution, the priest first removes the censure, then absolves the sinner. This is true for all of us trads each time we go to confession.

    And that's why a Catholic who has committed the sin of heresy is still a member because he can simply walk into the confession like only Catholics can do and leave absolved, whereas non-Catholics cannot. 


    PPXII was of course right. The excommunicated Catholic cannot partake with the community of the Church, he has excommunicated or severed himself from that due to his sin of public heresy.

    This means those who are excommunicated are forbidden from taking part in the communal life of the Church, they cannot receive communion or any of the sacraments until their sin is forgiven, they cannot be a sponsor, they cannot sing in the choir, be an usher etc. etc,. The nature of the sin of heresy makes one position themselves in direct opposition to God, the Church, her teachings, her doctrines, her magisterium and all things Catholic. They have effectively severed themselves from the Church by their sin of heresy. But if they were ever Catholic, they are still a Catholic - guilty of the sin of public heresy - and need to go to confession, which again, is something only Catholics can do. 

    "They have effectively severed themselves from the Church by their sin of heresy. But if they were ever Catholic, they are still a Catholic - guilty of the sin of public heresy - and need to go to confession, which again, is something only Catholics can do."

    What?  You are essentially saying that Pope Pius XII's teaching in Mystici Corporis means that Catholics who are guilty of the public sin of heresy remain members of the Church.  They do not go from being Catholic to non-Catholic.  From where did you get this interpretation?


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #17 on: October 18, 2025, 08:09:47 AM »
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  • We should certainly try to understand the terms.

    Pertinacity is one of the most incorrectly used terms.  Let's understand it by contrast.  Priest utters a heresy.  You point it out and he says it was a slip of the tongue.  Not petinacious.  You point it out, he looks it up, and he says, "oh, my bad ..." and retracts the view.  Not pertinacious.

    Those are the types of things that pertinacity rules out, so someone doesn't lose membership for merely uttering a heresy.

    Now, pertinacity does not require someone to consciously think, "I know that the Church teaches this and that it's heretical to deny it, and I deny it anyway."  That degree of conscious and deliberate rejection of dogma is not required, and there has been an attempt by R&R to turn pertinacity into some phenomenon that can only be discerned in the internal forum.

    It suffices for petinacity that someone repeatedly make the assertion (so not a slip of the tongue or simple mistake) and appear to be very strongly in favor of it, i.e. for them to adhere to it.

    Bergoglio, for instance, and actually all the other V2 papal claimants as well, teach the heresy that there can be salvation outside the Church, that the Old Covenant continues in force and is salvific for the Jews (the heresy Father Kramer points out) ... and they're certainly PERTINACIOUS about it.  They say it over and over again and teach it, and they're clearly adhering to it as something they strongly believe in.  That suffices for pertinacity.  Period.  There's no requirement to discern the internal forum, nor is that ordinarily possible.

    I think your definition of "pertinacity" is loosey-goosey.  Do you have a source?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #18 on: October 18, 2025, 11:23:11 AM »
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  • "They have effectively severed themselves from the Church by their sin of heresy. But if they were ever Catholic, they are still a Catholic - guilty of the sin of public heresy - and need to go to confession, which again, is something only Catholics can do."

    What?  You are essentially saying that Pope Pius XII's teaching in Mystici Corporis means that Catholics who are guilty of the public sin of heresy remain members of the Church.  They do not go from being Catholic to non-Catholic.  From where did you get this interpretation?
    When one commits the sin of manifest heresy, the Church does not sever his membership, the one guilty of the sin of heresy  severs himself from the Body of the Church by committing the sin.  

    But you're reading of Pope Pius XII is as if he is saying that it was the Church who severed it and kicked him out. Now if that were the case then  yes, we could then say that he is no longer a member. But he does not say that because the Church does not work that way. St. Thomas says that for the sinner, the censures of the Church are always first and foremost medicinal, meant to prompt the sinner to repent. Not to condemn him to hell *except* as warnings to him if he does not repent. 

    The idea that the Church kicks sinners out of the Church is altogether contrary to the Church's mission.

    How do penitent Catholics get absolved from their sins? They go to confession.
    How do penitent non-Catholics get absolved from their sins? They can't.
         
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #19 on: October 18, 2025, 11:33:31 AM »
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  • How do penitent Catholics get absolved from their sins? They go to confession.
    How do penitent non-Catholics get absolved from their sins? They can't.
       
    A heretic must abjure his heresy to be absolved of his sins. There is no sacrament without absolution, right? So, is it possible that the abjuration of heresy is what causes the former member of the Church to re-enter the Church, allowing him to receive absolution (the Sacrament) which only Catholics can receive?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Russiantrad

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #20 on: October 18, 2025, 11:55:09 AM »
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  • Catholic Knight, why was Bergoglio a formal heretic, but Ratzinger was not? Please provide examples that demonstrate the difference.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #21 on: October 19, 2025, 09:23:01 AM »
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  • A heretic must abjure his heresy to be absolved of his sins. There is no sacrament without absolution, right? So, is it possible that the abjuration of heresy is what causes the former member of the Church to re-enter the Church, allowing him to receive absolution (the Sacrament) which only Catholics can receive?
    No, I thought the same thing for a long time, but if you look it up in canon law, you will find under normal circuмstances, a public abjuration of heresy is only required for new converts prior to their baptism, or if the bishop or confessor makes it a requirement. Otherwise the penitent walks into the confession as a Catholic same as you and I do.

    Obviously it depends on the authority, the heretic and the censure that is attached to the sin, and if it is reserved to the Holy See, or to the bishop, or whatever other penalties/requirements are part of that censure. But let's face it, nowadays nobody with the authority to do it is going to excommunicate anyone for heresy, schism or apostacy, which makes this whole conversation somewhat mute. But public abjuration is not always required in every case.

    Fr. Wathen notes in Who Shall Ascend?:
    "It may surprise lay readers to learn that in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church. This means, of course, that everyone who has received a censure, and everyone who is "under a censure," is a Catholic, since he goes to confession to seek its removal. [The priest first lifts the censure then forgives the sin].... "May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you: and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication, suspension, and interdict, in so far as I am able and you are needful. Next, I absolve you from your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #22 on: October 19, 2025, 09:40:10 AM »
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  • No, I thought the same thing for a long time, but if you look it up in canon law, you will find under normal circuмstances, a public abjuration of heresy is only required for new converts prior to their baptism, or if the bishop or confessor makes it a requirement. Otherwise the penitent walks into the confession as a Catholic same as you and I do.

    Obviously it depends on the authority, the heretic and the censure that is attached to the sin, and if it is reserved to the Holy See, or to the bishop, or whatever other penalties/requirements are part of that censure. But let's face it, nowadays nobody with the authority to do it is going to excommunicate anyone for heresy, schism or apostacy, which makes this whole conversation somewhat mute. But public abjuration is not always required in every case.

    Fr. Wathen notes in Who Shall Ascend?:
    "It may surprise lay readers to learn that in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church. This means, of course, that everyone who has received a censure, and everyone who is "under a censure," is a Catholic, since he goes to confession to seek its removal. [The priest first lifts the censure then forgives the sin].... "May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you: and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication, suspension, and interdict, in so far as I am able and you are needful. Next, I absolve you from your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."
    Right, but what I am saying is the abjuration of heresy (public or privately in the confessional) takes place before the absolution of sins. The censure is lifted in the confessional prior to absolution of sins. The sacrament is not effected without absolution of sins, so I think there might be some distinction to be made between the heretic abjuring his heresies/the censures being lifted, and the absolution (the sacrament, which only Catholics can receive) being given only after those things occur
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #23 on: October 19, 2025, 01:35:28 PM »
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  • Right, but what I am saying is the abjuration of heresy (public or privately in the confessional) takes place before the absolution of sins. The censure is lifted in the confessional prior to absolution of sins. The sacrament is not effected without absolution of sins, so I think there might be some distinction to be made between the heretic abjuring his heresies/the censures being lifted, and the absolution (the sacrament, which only Catholics can receive) being given only after those things occur
    Well, yes, I would expect that the priest, at the very least, would ask something along the lines of: "So you agree to stop preaching that heresy from now on and you know it's heresy and no longer believe it?" then lift the censure and then absolve the sinner.  

    But the whole point is that if it is a Catholic who commits the sin of manifest heresy, he is still a Catholic, he is still a member of the Church since he can still go to confession if he decides to repent.          
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #24 on: October 19, 2025, 02:31:08 PM »
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  • Not quite, Stubborn.  If the heresy is occult/private, then confession can be used.  

    In the case of manifest heresy (which is a public sin), then a public abjuration is required, to correct the sin of scandal which the heresy caused.  That’s why the Middle Ages had public penances for public sin; because the sinner had to make up for the ADDITIONAL sin of scandal.

    Also, even if the heresy is private, it depends on the bishop, if he has given priests power to abjure certain heresies.  A priest has power only if given it.  

    It’s not that simple.  Heresy is a MAJOR SIN.  A simple confession does NOT fix the grave harm done by heresy. 

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #25 on: October 19, 2025, 03:11:31 PM »
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  • Well, yes, I would expect that the priest, at the very least, would ask something along the lines of: "So you agree to stop preaching that heresy from now on and you know it's heresy and no longer believe it?" then lift the censure and then absolve the sinner. 

    But the whole point is that if it is a Catholic who commits the sin of manifest heresy, he is still a Catholic, he is still a member of the Church since he can still go to confession if he decides to repent.         
    There is nothing stopping anybody at all from walking into a confessional and confessing their sins. Simply being in a confessional with a priest does not necessarily mean someone is Catholic. Hypothetically, a jew, Protestant, Hindu, etc. could do that. But they cannot receive absolution (the sacrament) because they are not Catholic. My point is, a heretic must abjure his heresy before being absolved of his sins. That is what allows a former heretic, someone who was outside of the Church, but is no longer, to receive absolution.

    >Heretic enters confessional. *No sacrament at this point

    >Heretic abjures his heresy and confesses other sins if necessary. It is evident he is no longer a heretic *No sacrament at this point

    >Censure is lifted, former heretic is now a member of the Church again *Still no sacrament at this point

    >Former heretic receives absolution *The Sacrament is effected, which only Catholics can receive

    I really cannot agree with Fr. Wathen's "once a Catholic always a Catholic" and "heretics are still members of the Church" ideas. It seems incredibly novel to me and flies in the face of what the popes have taught:


    Quote
    [The Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.

    Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino

    Quote
    The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodore :, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. “No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic” (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88). 

    Pope Leo XII, Satis Cognitum

    Quote
    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed

    ...

    For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy


    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #26 on: October 19, 2025, 04:37:35 PM »
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  • When one commits the sin of manifest heresy, the Church does not sever his membership, the one guilty of the sin of heresy  severs himself from the Body of the Church by committing the sin. 

    That the one guilty of the sin of heresy severs himself is the exact point.  He severs himself from membership in the Church by the very act of the public sin of heresy.  It's called ipso facto.

    “Public heretics (and a fortiori, apostates) are not members of the Church.  They are not members because they separate themselves from the unity of Catholic faith and from the external profession of the faith.  Obviously, therefore, they lack one of the three factors-baptism, profession of the same faith, union with the hierarchy-pointed out by Pius XII as requisite for membership in the Church (see above, p. 238).  The same pontiff has explicitly pointed out that, unlike other sins, heresy, schism, and apostasy, automatically sever a man from the Church. ‘For not every sin, however grave and enormous it be, is such as to sever a man automatically from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy‘ (MCC 30, italics ours).”
    (Monsignor G. Van Noort, S.T.D., Dogmatic Theology, Volume II, Christ’s Church, 153)

    “Certain sins – viz., apostasy, heresy and schism – of their nature cut off the guilty from the living Body of Christ…..It can hardly be denied that those who take up any of these positions – most evidently is this the case with the deliberate apostate – sever themselves by their own act from membership of the Church.”
    (The Teaching of the Catholic Church, Volume II, Arranged and Edited by Canon George Smith, New York, 1961, Fourteenth Printing, p. 708)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #27 on: October 20, 2025, 06:31:56 AM »
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  • It’s not that simple.  Heresy is a MAJOR SIN.  A simple confession does NOT fix the grave harm done by heresy.
    A Catholic who is guilty of  heresy commits a mortal sin. Heresy is the worst of all the sins, that is what heresy is, a sin. The only way a Catholic can be absolved of mortal sin is through confession.  

    IF the censure attached to the sin requires an abjuration then so be it, once completed in what, 60 seconds? 2 minutes? 3 minutes? they then would walk right into the confessional to be absolved exactly the same as you and I and all Catholics have done all of our lives. 

    Whereas as typically, the priest always presumes our contrition and firm purpose of amendment prior to absolution, the censure attached to the sin of heresy requires the heretic to profess as much with the abjuration, privately or publicly.  

    Compare that to a heretic who was never Catholic and wanted to repent. Before they could go to confession they would first have to become a member of the Church through all the usual catechetical instructions etc.,

    This is basic Catholicism, it is not complicated. It really is not the least bit complicated. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #28 on: October 20, 2025, 08:01:36 AM »
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  • Stubborn, we’ve been through this.  Major heresies cannot be abjured by a priest or in confession.  Martin Luther could NOT abjure his heresy in confession.  His sin was too public for that.  He had to be summoned to Rome, for a papal inquest and then formally and publicly abjure.  

    Yes, a simple heresy can be abjured by a simple confession.  But the V2 popes and modernists are at the level of error of Martin Luther.  Confession doesn’t cut it.  A public abjuration would be necessary so ALL THE FAITHFUL WORLDWIDE would know that these guys repent and were wrong.  We know this won’t happen, but that’s what it would take for them to get back into the Church.

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #29 on: October 20, 2025, 08:31:52 AM »
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  • I have a close family member that was denied absolution by a priest for schism (not SV because this individual is a NO).  That person was sent to the bishop for absolution.