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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure

Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 8816 times)

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Offline Catholic Knight

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Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« on: October 03, 2025, 09:12:19 AM »
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  • Alternate expressions of the proposition:

    1. One who knowingly, consciously, and willingly publicly asserts a proposition that is in direct contradiction to a Church teaching that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith separates himself from the Church by that very fact.
    2. One who knowingly, consciously, and willingly publicly denies or doubts a Church teaching that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith separates himself from the Church by that very fact.

    Clarifications:

    1. One who is separated from the Church is not a member of the Church.  He goes from being Catholic to non-Catholic.
    2. The separation takes place at the very instant the sin is committed.
    3. The proposition is independent of its application to a particular case.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #1 on: October 05, 2025, 07:48:20 AM »
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  • Back to the top.  Please vote.


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #2 on: October 05, 2025, 08:44:54 AM »
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  • The silence is deafening.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #3 on: October 06, 2025, 09:58:02 AM »
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  • As at the time of this post, here are the poll results:



    I am pleasantly surprised to see that 11 out of 14 votes affirmed the proposition. Deo gratias!

    Affirm = in accordance with a Church teaching that is of Divine and Catholic Faith
    Deny = heresy (I am not accusing you of being a heretic)
    Doubt = heresy but to a lesser degree than denying (I am not accusing you of being a heretic)
    Unsure = more homework needed 

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #4 on: October 07, 2025, 06:47:56 AM »
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  • At this time with 20 votes cast:

    Affirm = 17
    Deny = 1
    Doubt = 1
    Unsure = 1

    Beautiful!


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #5 on: October 11, 2025, 08:38:27 AM »
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  • Thank you to all those that voted.  For those who voted "deny", "doubt", or "unsure", will you please state the reason?

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #6 on: October 11, 2025, 07:12:43 PM »
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  •  affirm

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #8 on: October 11, 2025, 07:54:30 PM »
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  • Please define being part of the resistance. 
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #9 on: October 12, 2025, 06:42:00 AM »
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  • Alternate expressions of the proposition:

    1. One who knowingly, consciously, and willingly publicly asserts a proposition that is in direct contradiction to a Church teaching that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith separates himself from the Church by that very fact.
    2. One who knowingly, consciously, and willingly publicly denies or doubts a Church teaching that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith separates himself from the Church by that very fact.

    Clarifications:

    1. One who is separated from the Church is not a member of the Church.  He goes from being Catholic to non-Catholic.
    2. The separation takes place at the very instant the sin is committed.
    3. The proposition is independent of its application to a particular case.
    First, you should differentiate between the sin of formal heresy, and the possible sin material heresy:

    Fr. Hesse:
    Objective (or Material) heresy is: "According to the Church, salvation is attainable outside the Church".
    Formal (or Manifest) heresy is: "I don't care what the Church teaches, the Church is wrong, I say salvation is attainable outside the Church."

    Second, it might help to differentiate between the heresy of (A) a Catholic, and (B) one who never was Catholic so has always been separated from the Church. Of course for this thread, (B) is pretty much irrelevant.

    We know that a penitent heretic (A) can receive absolution of his sin of heresy through confession, or in danger of death can receive all of the sacraments of the Last Rites (Confession, Communion and Extreme Unction) and thereby the censure is removed and he is absolved of his sin of heresy (and all of his other sins) by any priest, whereas (B) those separated from the Church are forbidden by the Church to receive the sacraments.   

    How do you explain that one who is presumably no longer a member of the Church (A) can receive the sacraments at all.

    Also, how is what you say in your quote above for the sin of heresy is not also true for, say, the sin of Adultery?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #10 on: October 13, 2025, 11:13:05 AM »
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  • Please define being part of the resistance.

    You attend Masses of the Resistance and you agree with the SSPX (not neo-SSPX) position regarding the crisis of the Church.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #11 on: October 13, 2025, 11:28:31 AM »
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  • First, you should differentiate between the sin of formal heresy, and the possible sin material heresy:

    Fr. Hesse:
    Objective (or Material) heresy is: "According to the Church, salvation is attainable outside the Church".
    Formal (or Manifest) heresy is: "I don't care what the Church teaches, the Church is wrong, I say salvation is attainable outside the Church."

    Second, it might help to differentiate between the heresy of (A) a Catholic, and (B) one who never was Catholic so has always been separated from the Church. Of course for this thread, (B) is pretty much irrelevant.

    We know that a penitent heretic (A) can receive absolution of his sin of heresy through confession, or in danger of death can receive all of the sacraments of the Last Rites (Confession, Communion and Extreme Unction) and thereby the censure is removed and he is absolved of his sin of heresy (and all of his other sins) by any priest, whereas (B) those separated from the Church are forbidden by the Church to receive the sacraments.   

    How do you explain that one who is presumably no longer a member of the Church (A) can receive the sacraments at all.

    Also, how is what you say in your quote above for the sin of heresy is not also true for, say, the sin of Adultery?

    I stated public sin of manifest "formal" heresy.

    Through Confession, "A" is reconciled with the Church.  Given that "A" was a member of the Church before his public formal heresy, he has the knowledge about the Church's tenets.  Therefore, there is no need to reinstruct him on the Church's tenets prior to administering the Sacraments again to him.  "B" was never been a member of the Church.  He needs to renounce his heretical sect and be instructed on the Church's tenets prior to receiving the Sacraments.  I am granting you here that what you said about "A" is true.  You have not provided evidence, however.  If you deny that the public sin of manifest formal heresy makes a Catholic become a non-Catholic, then you deny the teaching of Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis, Paragraph 23 because that teaching is specifically about Catholics becoming severed from the Church via public heresy (and apostasy and schism).

    The sin of adultery does not by its very nature make one a non-Catholic.  It is by its very nature a mortal sin, but it does not by its very nature sever one from the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #12 on: October 13, 2025, 11:32:57 AM »
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  • So, it's really the wrong question, as nearly everyone agrees with the propostion ... with the key being when "formal" heresy can be discerned, when it's "manifest" and to whom ... and of course the term "sin" is a bit tricky as bleeds into the internal forum, and then the term "public and manifest" overlap and are redundant, so the proposition remains a bit murky.

    Many R&R would likely agree that the Conciliar papal claimants are manifest heretics, but would dispute the "formal" part.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #13 on: October 13, 2025, 11:50:16 AM »
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  • So, it's really the wrong question, as nearly everyone agrees with the propostion ... with the key being when "formal" heresy can be discerned, when it's "manifest" and to whom ... and of course the term "sin" is a bit tricky as bleeds into the internal forum, and then the term "public and manifest" overlap and are redundant, so the proposition remains a bit murky.

    Many R&R would likely agree that the Conciliar papal claimants are manifest heretics, but would dispute the "formal" part.

    I took the phrase "the public sin of manifest formal heresy" straight from Fr. Paul Kramer's First Volume of To Deceive the Elect.  I guess he didn't want to leave out any term that would lead to different interpretations.  He does use other variations as well.  Father did comment on Facebook that Bishop Pivarunas' use of the term 'manifest heretic" is not correct.  See below.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #14 on: October 13, 2025, 01:30:08 PM »
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  • I stated public sin of manifest "formal" heresy.
    I don't think so because your #1 and #2 merely state that the sin of heresy was being committed. Certainly all heresies are in direct contradiction to what the Church teaches, but for the sake of argument, your #s 1 and 2 were coming out of the mouth of an infidel, a prot minister, or a prot child for that matter. In these cases, I don't think we can say with certainty that they are speaking manifest heresy.

    Instead of saying "One who knowingly...." You could have phrased it: "A Catholic who knowingly..."  in this way it would have been more clear I think that the person was guilty of the sin of heresy.  


    Quote
    Through Confession, "A" is reconciled with the Church.  Given that "A" was a member of the Church before his public formal heresy, he has the knowledge about the Church's tenets.  Therefore, there is no need to reinstruct him on the Church's tenets prior to administering the Sacraments again to him. 
    But all non-Catholics, all of those outside of the Church, all non-members cannot receive the sacraments. So if this Catholic guilty of the sin of heresy, per the OP is ipso facto outside of the Church, then he cannot simply go to confession and be absolved as if he is a member of the Church, again, this is per the OP. 

    In reality, manifest heresy is a mortal sin, for this particular sin the Church attaches a censure, the censure of excommunication. In confession, in the traditional formula for absolution, the priest first removes the censure, then absolves the sinner. This is true for all of us trads each time we go to confession. 

    And that's why a Catholic who has committed the sin of heresy is still a member because he can simply walk into the confession like only Catholics can do and leave absolved, whereas non-Catholics cannot.   



    Quote
     I am granting you here that what you said about "A" is true.  You have not provided evidence, however.  If you deny that the public sin of manifest formal heresy makes a Catholic become a non-Catholic, then you deny the teaching of Pope Pius XII in Mystici Corporis, Paragraph 23 because that teaching is specifically about Catholics becoming severed from the Church via public heresy (and apostasy and schism).

    The sin of adultery does not by its very nature make one a non-Catholic.  It is by its very nature a mortal sin, but it does not by its very nature sever one from the Church.
    PPXII was of course right. The excommunicated Catholic cannot partake with the community of the Church, he has excommunicated or severed himself from that due to his sin of public heresy.

    This means those who are excommunicated are forbidden from taking part in the communal life of the Church, they cannot receive communion or any of the sacraments until their sin is forgiven, they cannot be a sponsor, they cannot sing in the choir, be an usher etc. etc,. The nature of the sin of heresy makes one position themselves in direct opposition to God, the Church, her teachings, her doctrines, her magisterium and all things Catholic. They have effectively severed themselves from the Church by their sin of heresy. But if they were ever Catholic, they are still a Catholic - guilty of the sin of public heresy - and need to go to confession, which again, is something only Catholics can do.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse