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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure

Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 13453 times)

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2025, 12:05:30 PM »
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  • This has nothing to do with ignorance
    Your satire is illustrating (quite entertainingly) what you meant to highlight about the formal motive of faith and pertinicity necessary for formal heresy.

    But, it is 100% based on the internal and NOT the external (which is what is judged by the Church).

    Your examples all revolve around the internal dispositions of the priest(s) and/or his level of ignorance - Your whole approach is pastoral and not juridical - I get it. 

    But, that is just the thing. Your examples read like a normal functioning scenario In the 1940s with what would then be considered a pre-Vatican II "Karen" (in your case Helen). 

    I thought the thread as discussing what the Church teaches about the definitions/processes of determining who is a heretic and if they are then to be considered a member of the Church... How should one approach this question, pastorally, or according to the law? 

    Your story was tongue-n-cheek, as was my query, but it is still a legitimate question.



    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #62 on: October 28, 2025, 12:11:44 PM »
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  • No ... and now we have an another armchair Canonist (where did you get your degree?)
    I will have you know that I have been able to read (somewhat) since I was about 6 yrs old. I am very proud of this achievement. I am an ongoing student in the school of hard knocks. Maybe you could knock some more sense into my head and explain how addressing the internal forum rather than following the processes as laid down by the law is a better approach to this question... Does this look right?


    Any member of the faithful, including a layperson, had the right to bring a denunciation to the proper ecclesiastical authority. However, the denunciation itself did not carry any automatic canonical penalty. The cleric accused of heresy would automatically lose his ecclesiastical office only if his defection from the faith was public and notorious.
    The key canons for this process are:
    • Canon 188.4: This canon establishes the principle of "tacit resignation" for a cleric. It states that "any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if a cleric... publicly defects from the Catholic faith". This means that the cleric would lose his office automatically upon committing a public act of heresy.
    • Canon 1324: This canon (and the closely related Canon 1325) defined heresy as the "stubborn denial" of a truth proposed by the Church as divinely revealed.
    • Canon 2200: This canon explains that in the external forum (meaning, publicly), the intent to commit a crime (in this case, the pertinacity required for heresy) is presumed from the external violation of the law.
    • Canon 2314: This canon specified the penalties for the crime of heresy, including automatic excommunication. For a cleric, this was compounded by the tacit resignation of office mentioned in Canon 188.4.
    How the process worked

    While a layperson could denounce a cleric for heresy, they did not have the authority to make an official judgment. Their role was to inform the proper ecclesiastical superior, who would then investigate and make a judgment in the "external forum."

    • Denunciation: A layperson who became aware of a cleric's public heresy would bring a denunciation to the cleric's bishop or other appropriate ecclesiastical superior.
    • Investigation: The superior would investigate the claim to determine if the public defection had occurred.
    • Automatic Vacancy: If the cleric's defection was judged to be public and pertinacious (stubborn), Canon 188.4 would apply. The cleric's office would be considered vacant by the law itself, effective from the moment he committed the heretical act.
    • Declaratory Sentence: While the loss of office was automatic, a "declaratory sentence" might be issued by the Church. This sentence did not impose the penalty but confirmed that it had already been incurred. This was necessary to make the vacancy official for legal purposes and to allow for the appointment of a new office holder.


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #63 on: October 28, 2025, 12:41:02 PM »
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  • The Delict of Heresy in Its Commission, Penalization, Absolution : Published in 1932.


    “The well-known controversy of Saint Cyprian of Carthage with the Roman authorities turned not merely on the question of rebaptising heretics, but also on the extent of the punishment to be inflicted on those who had failed to profess the faith in face of civil persecution. The Montanists, at this time and later, held that apostates could not be absolved from their sin nor restored to membership in the Church, no matter how sincere their repentance. Church authorities of orthodox faith held the contrary view , but were concerned to regulate the manner of reconciliation. Typical of such measures were the decrees of Saint Cyprian and the bishops of A frica, in the Council of Carthage, 251, which were later confirmed by Pope Saint Cornelius and sixty bishops in Rome. It was determined to exclude from all ecclesiastical functions those bishops and priests who had sacrificed to the pagan gods, or who had procured for themselves certificates of sacrifice; to accord com m union to laic libellatici if they had done penance im mediately after their sin; as to the laics who had sacrificed, their cases would be decided individually, and the degree of culpability thus discovered would determine the duration of the penance to be im posed and the time to which reconciliation  would be postponed.” This course of action obviously implies a penal system of excommunication, trial, punishment, and authoritative absolution.” Pg. 5


    How could they be “restored” to their membership if they were still “members”?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #64 on: October 28, 2025, 02:18:17 PM »
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  • Your problem is that you're reducing heresy to sin alone.  No, it's more than that.  The sin of heresy is 1) a violation of the 10 commandments (i.e. a sin).  2) it's also a HUMAN violation of church law/canon law.
    There is no such thing as reducing an offense against God to a sin alone. One mortal sin is the worst thing that could ever enter creation.  
      
    What you say about heresy is also said for adultery, abortion, willful murder, sodomy, and so on. 

    Heresy is a sin, it's the worst sin of all the sins. But that's what it is, a sin.


    A heretic rejects the faith, so no, they are no longer a member.  And no, they cannot simply go to confession.  Because heresy is a two-fold violation - 1) sin against God, 2) violation of canon law.
    Then they can never obtain absolution without first taking all the classes meant for catechumens. 
     
    If they cannot simply go to confession, then why, in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance as posted below, is there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church? 

    "...May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you: and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication, suspension, and interdict, in so far as I am able and you are needful. Next, I absolve you from your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #65 on: October 28, 2025, 02:36:45 PM »
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  • The Delict of Heresy in Its Commission, Penalization, Absolution : Published in 1932.


    “The well-known controversy of Saint Cyprian of Carthage with the Roman authorities turned not merely on the question of rebaptising heretics, but also on the extent of the punishment to be inflicted on those who had failed to profess the faith in face of civil persecution. The Montanists, at this time and later, held that apostates could not be absolved from their sin nor restored to membership in the Church, no matter how sincere their repentance. Church authorities of orthodox faith held the contrary view , but were concerned to regulate the manner of reconciliation. Typical of such measures were the decrees of Saint Cyprian and the bishops of A frica, in the Council of Carthage, 251, which were later confirmed by Pope Saint Cornelius and sixty bishops in Rome. It was determined to exclude from all ecclesiastical functions those bishops and priests who had sacrificed to the pagan gods, or who had procured for themselves certificates of sacrifice; to accord com m union to laic libellatici if they had done penance im mediately after their sin; as to the laics who had sacrificed, their cases would be decided individually, and the degree of culpability thus discovered would determine the duration of the penance to be im posed and the time to which reconciliation  would be postponed.” This course of action obviously implies a penal system of excommunication, trial, punishment, and authoritative absolution.” Pg. 5


    How could they be “restored” to their membership if they were still “members”?
    Not sure what your point is here, but to answer your question, it does not say that the Church held to that, it says that the Montanists heretics held to that. It says that the Church authorities (correctly) held the contrary view.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #66 on: October 28, 2025, 02:42:58 PM »
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  • Not sure what your point is here, but to answer your question, it does not say that the Church held to that, it says that the Montanists heretics held to that. It says that the Church authorities (correctly) held the contrary view. 
    Really?

    So this is wrong?:

    What does Rev. Eric MacKenzie teach in the 1932 Canon Law Dissertation, "The Delict of Heresy" about how the Church views heretics in terms of their membership status?


    In his 1932 dissertation?The Delict of Heresy in its Commission, Penalization, Absolution, Rev. Eric MacKenzie teaches that a baptized person who becomes a formal, manifest heretic automatically ceases to be a member of the Catholic Church. He bases this canonical and theological view on the principle that the act of obstinately denying or doubting a defined truth of the faith separates the heretic from the body of the Church.

    MacKenzie's analysis, which reflects the provisions of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, emphasizes several key points regarding a heretic's loss of membership:

    • External act required: The heresy must be externalized, meaning it is expressed through words or actions. Simply holding a private, erroneous belief does not constitute a canonical crime.
    • Formal heresy is distinct: MacKenzie differentiates between formal and material heretics. A heretic who denies the faith due to "inculpable ignorance" might not incur the canonical crime. However, a formal heretic, who knowingly and persistently denies a defined doctrine, is subject to penal consequences.
    • Automatic excommunication: The commission of a formal, external act of heresy incurs an automatic (ipso facto) excommunication. This penalty immediately severs the
    • heretic's legal membership in the Church. MacKenzie notes that this is a self-imposed act of separation, rather than one explicitly declared by a juridical authority.
    • No longer part of the body: By separating themselves from the Church's faith and unity, heretics also separate themselves from the visible body of the Church. MacKenzie underscores the severity of heresy as an offense against the faith itself, which strikes at the very foundation of the Church's unity.
    This canonical perspective from the 1930s is part of a long-standing tradition in Catholic thought, which holds that formal heretics, through their own actions, separate themselves from membership in the Church.

    Just an AI bug or something?


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #67 on: October 28, 2025, 03:12:11 PM »
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  • Stubborn,

    I think I can distill your position to, "once a member always a member."

    Can you quote a pre-Vatican II theologian that teaches that, (without interpolating your own interpretation), I mean just a verbatim quote that was a source acknowledged to be theologically credible prior to Vatican II?

    For me, that would be helpful so I could take your side of the argument seriously.

    Thanks!




    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #68 on: October 28, 2025, 03:21:52 PM »
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  • There is no such thing as reducing an offense against God to a sin alone. One mortal sin is the worst thing that could ever enter creation. 
     
    What you say about heresy is also said for adultery, abortion, willful murder, sodomy, and so on.

    Heresy is a sin, it's the worst sin of all the sins. But that's what it is, a sin.
    One is not excommunicated for adultery, or murder, or other sins.

    Heresy is a DIFFERENT TYPE OF SIN, which EXTRA PUNISHMENTS, per canon law.  


    Quote
    Then they can never obtain absolution without first taking all the classes meant for catechumens.
    :facepalm:  You only get baptized once; you only go through catechism classes once.

    As i've explained to you, and per canon law, a big-time heretic like Martin Luther was summoned to Rome and there was an inquiry into his actions.  Then there was a court proceeding.  Then he was given a chance to recant.  He didn't.  Then he was formally excommunicated.

    The only way for Luther to get back in "good standing" as a member of the Church was to (simplifying it):  a) abjure his heresy in an ecclesiastical court, b) profess his faith in the same court, c) do some type of penance.

    This serves as the "test" to see if the heretic is sincere.  Then he is considered to be "back in the fold" and a member.

    THEN he could go to confession, because he's a member.

    If Luther could've gone to confession 100x before, but it would've been invalid.  Canon Law "binds" an extra penalty upon heresy/schism that OTHER SINS do not.
     

    Quote
    If they cannot simply go to confession, then why, in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance as posted below, is there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church?

    "...May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you: and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication, suspension, and interdict, in so far as I am able and you are needful. Next, I absolve you from your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen
    Do you not understand this phrase?

    As we've been discussing, big-time heretics, i.e. Martin Luther, could NOT get absolution from some random priest in confession.  The random priest, PER CANON LAW, IS NOT ABLE to absolve a big-time heretic from MAJOR EXCOMMUNICATIONS and MAJOR CENSURES.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #69 on: October 28, 2025, 04:26:05 PM »
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  • Fellows, unless one of you is planning to apostatize, thinks he has a mandate from Our Lord to judge other’s souls, or bind others’ consciences, why continue hijacking nearly all theological (and some non-Theological!) threads to this argument? Traditional bishops can’t even agree. Better to pour your energy into imitating Our Lord. Why not start a thread or a few threads specifically for this and similar topics? 

    I’m now going to the Women Only section to ask for suggestions regarding sewing a certain style of dress. If any of you men are tailors, (not Taylors unless you are also a tailor), feel free to PM me.
    You’re still at it?  I got waylaid on the way to Women Only. Apparently it doesn’t matter. Bye!

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #70 on: October 28, 2025, 04:34:48 PM »
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  • Not sure what your point is here, but to answer your question, it does not say that the Church held to that, it says that the Montanists heretics held to that. It says that the Church authorities (correctly) held the contrary view. 
    :confused: Are you sure you are reading that right?

    "The Montanists, at this time and later, held that apostates could not be absolved from their sin nor restored to membership in the Church, no matter how sincere their repentance. Church authorities of orthodox faith held the contrary view , but were concerned to regulate the manner of reconciliation." 

    The Church's view was the "contrary" view to that of the heretics.

    The heretics believed that those who apostasized COULD NOT regain membership.

    The Church held the contrary view that they COULD regain membership.

    Thus, how could they regain what they never lost - if your "once a member always a member" thesis was true.

    capisce? 





    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #71 on: October 28, 2025, 07:08:18 PM »
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  • Yes, Stubborn read it wrong.  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 06:17:27 AM »
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  • Yes, Stubborn read it wrong. 
    I'm not the one reading it wrong. 

    The Montanists are the heretics. The heretics held that apostates 1) could not be absolved from their sin 2) nor restored to membership in the Church.

    The Church authorities  held the contrary view. Which means 1) Apostates can be absolved and 2) ipso facto they were already members of the Church. 

    The Church can never absolve non-members, the Church can only absolve members.  It's really not the least bit complicated.

    Capisce? 


    MacKenzie's analysis, which reflects the provisions of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, emphasizes several key points regarding a heretic's loss of membership:
    • No longer part of the body: By separating themselves from the Church's faith and unity, heretics also separate themselves from the visible body of the Church. MacKenzie underscores the severity of heresy as an offense against the faith itself, which strikes at the very foundation of the Church's unity.
    Of course they've separated themselves from the *visible* body of the Church, this is what happens to heretics and all those who are excommunicated. 


    Really?

    So this is wrong?:

    What does Rev. Eric MacKenzie teach in the 1932 Canon Law Dissertation, "The Delict of Heresy" about how the Church views heretics in terms of their membership status?


    In his 1932 dissertation?The Delict of Heresy in its Commission, Penalization, Absolution, Rev. Eric MacKenzie teaches that a baptized person who becomes a formal, manifest heretic automatically ceases to be a member of the Catholic Church. He bases this canonical and theological view on the principle that the act of obstinately denying or doubting a defined truth of the faith separates the heretic from the body of the Church.
    No, he's not wrong. The baptized person in his description ceases to be a member of the Church once they reach the age of reason, or if they were baptized as a non-Catholic in some other religion. 

       
    Can you quote a pre-Vatican II theologian that teaches that, (without interpolating your own interpretation), I mean just a verbatim quote that was a source acknowledged to be theologically credible prior to Vatican II?
    No, I cannot. I imagine it's out there somewhere but I'm not going to spend time searching for something that is a basic Catholic principle.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #73 on: Yesterday at 06:38:59 AM »
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  • As i've explained to you, and per canon law, a big-time heretic like Martin Luther was summoned to Rome and there was an inquiry into his actions.  Then there was a court proceeding.  Then he was given a chance to recant.  He didn't.  Then he was formally excommunicated.
    I said use yourself as an example, not Luther. The reason I said that is because in this day and age, all the above is simply not gonna happen to any one no matter what the sin is. 

    So use yourself as an example: You become a manifest heretic, but 10 years from now your conscience is eating you alive and you resolve to repent. What do *you* do? You go to a trad priest and he absolves you. He may or may not have you make an abjuration or profession of faith or whatever, but he *will* absolve you.
    All things considered, it is actually quite amazing how easy it is for a Catholic to be absolved vs absolutely impossible for a non-Catholic to be absolved.  


    Do you not understand this phrase?
    :facepalm: No, I don't understand that phrase. [/sarcasm]
    How many times do I have to repeat myself? Again, I said: "it depends on the authority [who issued the penalty], the heretic and the censure that is attached to the sin, and if it is reserved to the Holy See, or to the bishop, or whatever other penalties/requirements are part of that censure."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #74 on: Yesterday at 08:03:32 AM »
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  • I'm not the one reading it wrong.

    The Montanists are the heretics. The heretics held that apostates 1) could not be absolved from their sin 2) nor restored to membership in the Church.

    The Church authorities  held the contrary view. Which means 1) Apostates can be absolved and 2) ipso facto they were already members of the Church.

    The Church can never absolve non-members, the Church can only absolve members.  It's really not the least bit complicated.
    You are either bad-willed or just plain stupid.  Nobody said the part in red; you just made it up.  :facepalm: