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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure

Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 29848 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #300 on: Today at 07:55:15 AM »
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  • I would rephrase that, I would say "IF a man is ordained."  I would say that the schism occurred almost 1000 years ago, when validity of ordinations, sacraments etc., were not in question at all. But 1000 years is a long time for nothing to have changed in a schismatic religion, particularly considering all that has happened in these last 60 years. 
    :facepalm: Neither Pope St Pius X nor Pius XII ever questioned the orthodox sacramental validity.  

    Whether they are valid all the time is irrelevant.  The discussion presumes they are, because we’re discussing WHY they are valid.  Don’t change the topic.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #301 on: Today at 08:00:37 AM »
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  • I think the problem is in comparing orthodox and Protestants.  The 2 groups are incomparable.  The orthodox THINK they are Catholic, they WANT to be Catholic, they ACT like Catholics.  That’s why their sacraments are valid.  They aren’t against Catholicism, they are just against Rome.  They are like 60-70% Catholic.  

    Prottys don’t think, want or act like Catholicism in any way.  They don’t pretend to have sacraments (other than baptism and even then, not all Protestant sects believe it’s necessary).  Nor do they even believe in sacraments.  Prottys are about 2% Catholic.  


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #302 on: Today at 10:41:46 AM »
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  • :facepalm: Neither Pope St Pius X nor Pius XII ever questioned the orthodox sacramental validity. 

    Whether they are valid all the time is irrelevant.  The discussion presumes they are, because we’re discussing WHY they are valid.  Don’t change the topic. 
    :facepalm: Neither Pope St. Pius X nor Pius XII were alive for V2 either.  You believe the EO were untouched by the revolution of  V2, I am not sure.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #303 on: Today at 11:00:57 AM »
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  • We can set aside whether or not the EO have, since the end of Pope Pius XII's reign or V2, made any changes to their ordination/consecration formulas, or to what they believe about those orders, that would render them invalid.

    What is relevant is that the the Church has, at least up until PXII, held their orders to be valid. What is also relevant is that those orders, which the Church held to be valid, were illicit. They were valid but illicit. The Church did not "give permission" to the EO to perform them, the EO stole them. How can this "unite them in some way" to the Church if they perform these sacraments against the will of the Church

    The validity of their orders is why you will find theologians saying that it would be licit for a Catholic in danger of death to approach them for absolution of sins. This is the only time you can say that the Church "gives permission" to the EO in particular to confect the sacraments. But it probably is not even correct to say that the Church "gives permission" to the EO, the letter from the Holy Office gave permission to Catholics to approach EO in danger of death. Besides, the EO don't care what the Church says. They validly yet illicitly confect the Eucharist, holy orders, and Chrismation all the time. 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #304 on: Today at 12:26:12 PM »
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  • We can set aside whether or not the EO have, since the end of Pope Pius XII's reign or V2, made any changes to their ordination/consecration formulas, or to what they believe about those orders, that would render them invalid.

    What is relevant is that the the Church has, at least up until PXII, held their orders to be valid. What is also relevant is that those orders, which the Church held to be valid, were illicit. They were valid but illicit. The Church did not "give permission" to the EO to perform them, the EO stole them. How can this "unite them in some way" to the Church if they perform these sacraments against the will of the Church

    The validity of their orders is why you will find theologians saying that it would be licit for a Catholic in danger of death to approach them for absolution of sins. This is the only time you can say that the Church "gives permission" to the EO in particular to confect the sacraments. But it probably is not even correct to say that the Church "gives permission" to the EO, the letter from the Holy Office gave permission to Catholics to approach EO in danger of death. Besides, the EO don't care what the Church says. They validly yet illicitly confect the Eucharist, holy orders, and Chrismation all the time.
    I'm talking the whole time about when there is danger of death. For this discussion, neither the Church nor I care what they do any other time. The Church says that we can receive the sacraments from the EO and that they administer the sacrament validly and licitly in danger of death and as long as no Catholic priest is available. I get it that this presumes validity of the schismatic priest - it's a sticking point for me, but I accept it.

    Personally, I don't know the difference between an Eastern Orthodox and Russian Orthodox, or an Ethiopian Orthodox, or a Malankara Orthodox for that matter.        
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse