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Poll

The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.

Affirm
Deny
Doubt (meaning I don't think so)
Unsure
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Author Topic: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance  (Read 26334 times)

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Offline WorldsAway

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Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
« Reply #270 on: Today at 11:11:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 11:05:44 AM
    This ^^ is absurd and makes no sense actually. According to your reasoning, that heretic priest is no more than an atheist layman booted out of the Church to begin with, as such he could no more administer a valid sacrament than you can - because as a heretic he is no longer a member, no longer a Catholic and no longer even a priest. Heresy made him lose it all - to the detriment of the penitent. 

    In reality, per Trent, the censured priest administers the sacrament just as validly and licitly as a non-censured priest, because once a Catholic priest, always a Catholic priest - "Thou art a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek."
    Of course he is still a priest. I never said otherwise. 

    Take the "Orthodox" for example. From your reasoning, they are not Catholic. They are outside the Church. They are not members. From the age of reason they clung to their schism and heresy. You said it yourself, they are not Catholic and are not members of the Church. Yet they can still validly, yet illicitly, confect holy orders and the Eucharist. 
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #271 on: Today at 11:23:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 11:11:53 AM
    Of course he is still a priest. I never said otherwise.

    Take the "Orthodox" for example. From your reasoning, they are not Catholic. They are outside the Church. They are not members. From the age of reason they clung to their schism and heresy. You said it yourself, they are not Catholic and are not members of the Church. Yet they can still validly, yet illicitly, confect holy orders and the Eucharist.
    I think you know that theirs is a different case altogether. As I quoted directly from Trent for the reference we are discussing, they said what they said.  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #272 on: Today at 11:35:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 11:23:15 AM
    I think you know that theirs is a different case altogether. As I quoted directly from Trent for the reference we are discussing, they said what they said. 
    Why is it a different case? Can you explain? You will find pre-V2 theologians saying it is permissible for Catholics in danger of death to approach EO priests for valid and licit confession. The priest is not Catholic, he is outside the Church. But the salvation of souls is the supreme law of the Church. Hence the permission. Trent says "all priests". EO priests are priests
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #273 on: Today at 12:19:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 11:35:32 AM
    Why is it a different case? Can you explain? You will find pre-V2 theologians saying it is permissible for Catholics in danger of death to approach EO priests for valid and licit confession. The priest is not Catholic, he is outside the Church. But the salvation of souls is the supreme law of the Church. Hence the permission. Trent says "all priests". EO priests are priests
    It's not a different case, it's just Stubborn has issues (either purposefully or not) with principles and applying them to real life.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #274 on: Today at 01:45:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 11:35:32 AM
    Why is it a different case? Can you explain? You will find pre-V2 theologians saying it is permissible for Catholics in danger of death to approach EO priests for valid and licit confession. The priest is not Catholic, he is outside the Church. But the salvation of souls is the supreme law of the Church. Hence the permission. Trent says "all priests". EO priests are priests
    Yes, in danger of death is the only time that the Church permits receiving sacraments from EO priests because Church has never invalidated their Orders / sacraments for some reason, do you know why that is? 

    But you make a good point.  I'll look into it more later or tomorrow when I have the time.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Poll for Those Who Consider Themselves Part of the Resistance
    « Reply #275 on: Today at 02:42:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 01:45:49 PM
    Yes, in danger of death is the only time that the Church permits receiving sacraments from EO priests because Church has never invalidated their Orders / sacraments for some reason, do you know why that is?

    But you make a good point.  I'll look into it more later or tomorrow when I have the time.
    I'm not sure whether or not the Church *could* invalidate their orders or liturgy. So long as they profess those parts of the faith and properly administer those sacraments I don't think they could simply be declared invalid..for better or for worse.
     If it were possible, I at least think it would already have been done so
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
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