Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: SSPX delendum est  (Read 57557 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 32523
  • Reputation: +28742/-566
  • Gender: Male
SSPX delendum est
« on: January 30, 2025, 01:34:09 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm talking here about a hypothetical that takes a lot of imagination.

    Imagine tomorrow the SSPX is dissolved. Someone sues them for 750 billion, the victims are awarded the whole amount, and the SSPX is forced to be sold off and liquidated. Again, we're NOT talking about a nuke dropped on Menzingen during a rare "100% of their priests" meeting there. That wouldn't be good at all. That's why I'm specific about the organization/bank accounts/real estate/propaganda outlets being destroyed, and nothing more.

    In this scenario, all their libraries, records, recordings, etc. would go to some priest, and would end up in some new seminary, chapel(s), etc.

    That would be 100% good. Some growing pains, yes -- but it would be GOOD FOR ALL PARTIES.

    The consequences would be:
    - hundreds of priests now outside the SSPX and its control. Each priest would obviously set up shop somewhere, to serve the Faithful.
    - the Faithful would largely have to give up their beautiful buildings and illusion that "the Crisis is over". That would be 100% good, in my opinion. People *need* a bit more basement, spare room, garage, and hotel Masses in their lives. WAY TOO MANY TRADS are bombarded with evidence all around them that there is no Crisis in the Church any longer -- what with the size, manpower, equipment, and professionalism of the SSPX, which rivals that of the Catholic Church before Vatican II!
    - Like in the 1970s and 1980s, Trads would learn to appreciate having the Mass once again, and would have to stop taking it for granted.

    My point is that the SSPX adds nothing, over and above what GOD gives in the Mass, and what the Priests give by their ministrations. All the SSPX adds is evil, corruption, lies, propaganda, enabling of crimes against children, etc.
    Yes, the world would be better off without all that.

    Even the least of their "evils" -- propagating the illusion that the Crisis is over -- is not exactly good for most Trads. Because of their material success, years in business, war chest, and real estate portfolio. If that were all taken away, it would be better for Tradition -- and the world -- as a whole.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    Paypal donations: matthew@chantcd.com

    Offline Gray2023

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2309
    • Reputation: +1275/-761
    • Gender: Female
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #1 on: January 30, 2025, 02:06:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm talking here about a hypothetical that takes a lot of imagination.

    Imagine tomorrow the SSPX is dissolved. Someone sues them for 750 billion, the victims are awarded the whole amount, and the SSPX is forced to be sold off and liquidated. Again, we're NOT talking about a nuke dropped on Menzingen during a rare "100% of their priests" meeting there. That wouldn't be good at all. That's why I'm specific about the organization/bank accounts/real estate/propaganda outlets being destroyed, and nothing more.

    In this scenario, all their libraries, records, recordings, etc. would go to some priest, and would end up in some new seminary, chapel(s), etc.

    That would be 100% good. Some growing pains, yes -- but it would be GOOD FOR ALL PARTIES.

    The consequences would be:
    - hundreds of priests now outside the SSPX and its control. Each priest would obviously set up shop somewhere, to serve the Faithful.
    - the Faithful would largely have to give up their beautiful buildings and illusion that "the Crisis is over". That would be 100% good, in my opinion. People *need* a bit more basement, spare room, garage, and hotel Masses in their lives. WAY TOO MANY TRADS are bombarded with evidence all around them that there is no Crisis in the Church any longer -- what with the size, manpower, equipment, and professionalism of the SSPX, which rivals that of the Catholic Church before Vatican II!
    - Like in the 1970s and 1980s, Trads would learn to appreciate having the Mass once again, and would have to stop taking it for granted.

    My point is that the SSPX adds nothing, over and above what GOD gives in the Mass, and what the Priests give by their ministrations. All the SSPX adds is evil, corruption, lies, propaganda, enabling of crimes against children, etc.
    Yes, the world would be better off without all that.

    Even the least of their "evils" -- propagating the illusion that the Crisis is over -- is not exactly good for most Trads. Because of their material success, years in business, war chest, and real estate portfolio. If that were all taken away, it would be better for Tradition -- and the world -- as a whole.
    One could only imagine.  I wish I would be around to see what God's solution would be.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46218
    • Reputation: +27190/-5030
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #2 on: January 30, 2025, 02:20:38 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I do agree that the SSPX as institution has become part of the problem, with their 50-million-dollar seminary and 25-million-dollar church at St. Mary's, etc.

    There was something about the Hotel Mass, which, while I despised, reminded you of the crisis all the time.  But if you walk into a 25-million-dollar church at St. Mary's.  Oh, and many people had to make long commutes to Mass, whereas now they move to St. Mary's within a stone's throw of the church and school.  I believe that many of the younger priests, who are getting weaker and weaker in the battle against Modernism were raised as cradle Trads at places like St. Mary's or Post Falls or some of the other larger chapels out there.

    I could deal with an in-between, though, so not a Hotel, where you could have daily Mass, for instance, but in one of these old little church buildings that are still out there in SSPX world, the smaller chapels.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46218
    • Reputation: +27190/-5030
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #3 on: January 30, 2025, 02:22:03 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • I believe, though, that this is only a small part of the problem.  I believe that the influx of Motarians (by design after Bergoglio shut down the Motu Masses) has completely watered down the "culture" as SSPX chapels to where many are to the Left of FSSP churches even.

    Offline sayonarasatan

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 14
    • Reputation: +9/-19
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #4 on: January 30, 2025, 02:47:58 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't necessarily agree: there are still SSPX chapels that are little more than a backroom or a garage, yet I've seen irreverent, rushed masses in exactly these locations. According to your theory, you'd expect it the other way around, but no. Also, one of the only Resistance priests in Germany, was - accidentally or not - head of the largest German priory of Rheinshausen (the German equivalent of St. Mary's). He spoke out and then got demoted to a smaller, unimportant congregation. So, money, fame or position do not necessarily corrupt good priests. Meanwhile, even hardcore monks like the Transalpine Redemptorists, originally created by some of Lefevbres first priests, fell even harder and went straight back to the Conciliar Church, despite not having great accomodations.

    Why are some people more liberal / trusting Catholic authority and some are more conservative / distrusting authority? Why do some people "get it" what the fight is about and others don't? People might speculate it has to do with physicalites, i.e. if you're physically strong then you're going to automatically more steadfast - but I haven't observed that to be the case necessarily, these characters often fall into pride. Some speculate it's because of upbringing or it's about how much they had to fight to get to their baptism, i.e. converts are usually far more "on fire" than cradle Catholics. Some people seem to be more or less predisposed / inclined to liberalism, and truth is, I don't not know why. Probably it's because of how much they pray (and more about how fervently they pray and fast). Maybe it's a humble disposition of the heart?

    Second, it also shouldn't always be like this, it's not the normal state of the Church to celebrate in garages. It may be true that the weak men -> hard times -> strong men -> good times cycle runs in the Church, but the Middle Ages had "good times" for hundreds of years. But we are not Protestants or iconoclasts who reject externalities, money or beautiful buildings in general. Maybe it was because life was harsh in general? If so, neither garage Masses nor opulent Masses will help to fix that as then the problem is modern life in general.

    In general, people get the priests they deserve. The nithe cultural Sunday Catholics will get their nithe Novus Ordo bishop and then nithely fall into hell. The people who care about the smells and bells but not fighting for the doctrine will get their FSSP-TLM and suffer constant fear about having their indult Masses taken away. The people who understand Lefevbre but are more inclined towards liberalism will get the nithe SSPX. And the rest will go and seek out the garages / remaining monasteries themselves - no effort and no distance will be too great for them to seek out the Mass with a true, uncompromising priest.

    I've recently thought about the verse "your body should be a temple". Most people nowadays, including the ones in the SSPX, are museums, not temples: maybe nice to look at, but without much love for the Eucharist inside. First of all, the people in the congregations have to be temples again, then the outside temple will come naturally. 

    I don't think a financial nuke in Menzingen will change peoples behaviour, it would also completely prevent converts from finding any close Mass at all. I am a recent (2023) convert and I personally went from being raised in a Baptist-ish dispensationalist family -> NO (for 3 months, I didn't know the TLM existed) -> SSPX -> Resistance. Without the SSPX existing at that time and place, without their websites listing their Mass locations, without their youth group welcoming me at my first Mass, I would not have found the faith and would likely still be Protestant. About half of my congregation are adult converts. Not everyone has the grace of growing up in a TradCath family, and even the families who were with the "old SSPX" fell asleep at the wheel and now go along with the nithe neo-SSPX, even after I warned them.

    It's a great mystery why God picks some people over others.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46218
    • Reputation: +27190/-5030
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #5 on: January 30, 2025, 02:54:19 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • But you say they are all still Catholics anyway so who cares if they merge with the SSPX?
    You also say heresy isn't contagious contra Suarez, Mckenzie, etc.

    Even if its "watered" down Catholicism it's still Catholicism, right?

    You need psychological help.  People can still be "Catholics", you blithering idiot and cause harm.  So, for instance, many of those coming in dress immodestly during Mass (as reported here).  I'm sure that makes them non-Catholics.  Pius XII forgot to mention immodest dress in his list of things that exclude someone from membership in the Church.

    Despite your lack of brain power, there is such a thing as a bad Catholic, you moron ... as there are such things are errors short of heresy (every heard of the theological notes, you idiot), bad attitudes, poor morals, worldliness, etc.

    It's long past time for this radical schismatic baboon to be banned once and for all.

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4909
    • Reputation: +1883/-231
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #6 on: January 30, 2025, 02:56:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have to think that, in that case, many of the priests would coalesce into one or more de novo traditionalist organizations.  They wouldn't all suddenly become vagus priests, each one out on their own, some would, surely, but not all.

    Many would likely go FSSP or ICSKP.

    Offline Clare67

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 45
    • Reputation: +44/-2
    • Gender: Female
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #7 on: January 30, 2025, 03:03:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You need psychological help.  People can still be "Catholics", you blithering idiot and cause harm.  So, for instance, many of those coming in dress immodestly during Mass (as reported here).  I'm sure that makes them non-Catholics.  Pius XII forgot to mention immodest dress in his list of things that exclude someone from membership in the Church.

    Despite your lack of brain power, there is such a thing as a bad Catholic, you moron ... as there are such things are errors short of heresy (every heard of the theological notes, you idiot), bad attitudes, poor morals, worldliness, etc.

    It's long past time for this radical schismatic baboon to be banned once and for all.
    :laugh1: :laugh2: 

    "It's long past time for this radical schismatic baboon to be banned once and for all."

    Oh, I'm dying here! :laugh1: 


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46218
    • Reputation: +27190/-5030
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #8 on: January 30, 2025, 03:27:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sadly, it doesn't merely have a ring to it, but it's actually true.

    I've explained to you a dozen times now the distinctions between formal and material heretics, between forma heretics and bad Catholics.  Yes, you can still be a Catholic, formally, if you profess heresies because you mistakenly think the Church teaches them or permits belief in them.  You can in fact be a bad Catholic (bad morals, bad attitudes, worldliness, liberalism, various errors that fall short of heresy, etc.) ... and yet remain a Catholic.  Pius XII clearly taught that same distinction, where someone could be a terrible Catholic, in moral sin constantly, commiting one grievous sin after another, even sacrileges, but none of those things sever someone from membership in the Church.

    It's not the least bit difficult.  But you insist upon declaring ejected from the Church anyone that you decide holds to some error, even if the Church hasn't judged it so, even if it's an error short of heresy (even grave error or proximate to heresy don't exclude from the Church, but then you don't seem to know the difference).  So, one can be schismatic not only by refusing subjection to the Pope, but also by refusing communion with other Catholics, precisely be declaring to be outside the Church various individuals who are not in fact outside the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46218
    • Reputation: +27190/-5030
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #9 on: January 30, 2025, 03:36:03 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • He does have a way with words, doesn't he? I don't even think +Williamson could have said it better :jester:

    Indeed, Bishop Williamson would occasionally use the term baboon.

    Now, my all-time favor is Dr. Zachary Smith from the original Lost In Space TV series.
    https://irwinallen.fandom.com/wiki/Dr._Smith%27s_Insults

    # in parenthesis is the # of times he used each one.  As you can see, he liked the alliteration ...

    • Addlepated Amateur (1)
    • Addlepated Armorbearer (2)
    • Arrogant Automaton (1)
    • Astigmatic Automaton (1)
    • Babbling Birdbrain (1)
    • Babbling Bumpkin (1)
    • Bellicose Bumpkin (4)
    • Blithering Blatherskite (1)
    • Blithering Booby (3)
    • Blithering Bumpkin (1)
    • Bookmaking Booby (1)
    • Bow your Bubble (1)
    • Bubble-headed Booby (9)
    • Bumbling Birdbrain (3)
    • Bumbling Bag of Bolts (1)
    • Bumbling Bucket of Bolts (1)
    • Bumbling Booby (1)
    • Bumptious Braggart (2)
    • Cackling Cacophony (1)
    • Cackling Canister (1)
    • Cackling Clod (3)
    • Cackling Coward (1)
    • Cackling Cuckoo (1)
    • Calamitous Clump (1)
    • Cantankerous Cold-hearted Clump (1)
    • Caterwauling Clod (1)
    • Cautious Clump (1)
    • Clod-like Collection of Condensers (1)
    • Clumsy Clod (3)
    • Clumsy Clump (3)
    • Computerized Clod (4)
    • Computerized Clump (1)
    • Confused Compass (1)
    • Cowardly Clump (7)
    • cuмbersome Clod (3)
    • cuмbersome Clump (1)
    • Defective Detective (1)
    • Demented Diode (1)
    • Deplorable Dunderhead (2)
    • Despotic Dunce (1)
    • Digital Dunce (1)
    • Digitized Dunce (1)
    • Dipety Dunce (1)
    • Disreputable Dunce (2)
    • Disreputable Dunderhead (1)
    • Doddering Dunderhead (1)
    • Elephantine Adam (and Eve) (1)
    • Ferrous Frankenstein (1)
    • Floundering Flunky (2)
    • Foolish Fop (1)
    • Frightful Fractious Frump (1)
    • Gargantuan Goose (1)
    • Garrulous Gargoyle (1)
    • Gigantic Gargoyle (1)
    • Great Goose (1)
    • Gregarious Gremlin (1)
    • Hard-headed Harbinger of Evil (1)
    • Hardware Hyena (1)
    • Hopeless Heap of Tainted Tin (1)
    • Hypotensive Hypochondriac (1)
    • Ignominious Ignoramus (1)
    • Ill-informed Ignoramus (1)
    • Incompetent Idiot (1)
    • Incompetent Imbecile (1)
    • Ineffectual Ineptitude (1)
    • Inept Idiot (1)
    • Infamous Informer (1)
    • Ingot of Ingratitude (1)
    • Insensitive Idiot (1)
    • Insipid Ineptitude (1)
    • Iron-born Ingrate (1)
    • Jabbering Jackanapes (1)
    • Jabbering Jeremiah (1)
    • Jabbering Judas (2)
    • Jangling Junkheap (1)
    • Juvenile Junk Pile (1)
    • Lame-brained Lump (1)
    • Lead-lined Lothario (1)
    • Lead-lined Lump (1)
    • Lilly-livered, lead lined lummox (1)
    • Lily-livered Lump (2)
    • Ludicrous Lump (3)
    • Lugubrious Laggard (1)
    • Lugubrious Lecture3 (1)
    • Lugubrious Lump (2)
    • Meandering Mental Midget (1)
    • Mechanical Meddler (2)
    • Mechanical Misfit (3)
    • Mechanical Monolith (1)
    • Mechanical Murderer (1)
    • Mechanized Maidservant1 (1)
    • Mediocre Medical Misfit (1)
    • Mental Midget (3)
    • Mess of Metal (1)
    • Metallic Monstrosity (1)
    • Misguided Mechanical Misery (1)
    • Misshapen Mummy (1)
    • Monstrous Mechanized Misguided Moron (1)
    • Monstrous Mountebank (1)
    • Nattering Ninny (1)
    • Neanderthal Ninny (2)
    • Negligent Ninny (1)
    • Nervous Ninny (5)
    • Nickel-plated Nincompoop (1)
    • Nickering Ninny (1)
    • Noxious Ninny (1)
    • Obsolete Oaf (1)
    • Oversized Oaf (1)
    • Parsimonious Puppet (1)
    • Pathetic Pomposity (1)
    • Pedagogical Pip-Squeak (1)
    • Plasticized Parrot (1)
    • Pompous Pig Squeak (1)
    • Ponderous Plumber (1)
    • Pot-bellied Prankster (1)
    • Pot-headed Prankster (1)
    • Preening Popinjay (1)
    • Presumptuous Pip-Squeak (1)
    • Presumptuous Popinjay (1)
    • Pretentious Popinjay (1)
    • Primitive Pile of Pistons (1)
    • Pusillanimous Pinhead (2)
    • Pusillanimous Pip-squeak (1)
    • Pusilanimous Puppet Season 1 e 5, 6:12
    • Pusillanimous Punka (1)
    • Quivering Quintessence of Fear (1)
    • Ramshackle Romeo (1)
    • Robust Rock Hound (1)
    • Ridiculous Rigmarole2 (1)
    • Ridiculous Robot (1)
    • Ridiculous Roue (1)
    • Ridiculous Roustabout (1)
    • Roly-Poly Rowdy (1)
    • Rusty Rasputin (1)
    • Sanctimonious Scatterbrain (1)
    • Scurrilous Scatterbrain (1)
    • Sententious Sloth (1)
    • Sickening Cybernetic (1)
    • Silly Sausage (1)
    • Silly Sloth (1)
    • Silver-plated Sellout (1)
    • Simple Simon (2)
    • Tarnished Trumpet (1)
    • Tin-plated Tinhorn (1)
    • Tin-plated Traitor (2)
    • Tintinnabulating Tin Can (1)
    • Tiresome Thesaurus (1)
    • Traitorous Tin Tabulation (1)
    • Treasonous Tyrant (1)
    • Tyrannical Tin Plate (1)
    • Unctuous Underling (1)
    • Ungrateful Underling (1)
    • Wobbling Weakling4 (1)
    • Worry Wart (1)


    Offline Clare67

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 45
    • Reputation: +44/-2
    • Gender: Female
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #10 on: January 30, 2025, 04:01:51 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Bubble-headed Booby
    Hopeless Heap of Tainted Tin
    Lilly-livered, lead lined lummox 
    Neanderthal Ninny
    Tiresome Thesaurus
    Traitorous Tin Tabulation
    Ungrateful Underling 
    Wobbling Weakling

    I love all of them, but these are my favorite!  Oh my!  Thank you for this.  I needed the laugh after the sad news of Bishop Williamson.  

    And, by the way, I'm old enough to remember reruns of "Lost in Space".  Hated that show, even as a kid!  It was so cheesy, and yet, it is the "moon landing/take off" all over again, without a doubt!  NASA ala "Lost in Space"  Completely!  :laugh1:


    Offline Seraphina

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3772
    • Reputation: +2761/-245
    • Gender: Female
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #11 on: January 30, 2025, 04:26:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have to think that, in that case, many of the priests would coalesce into one or more de novo traditionalist organizations.  They wouldn't all suddenly become vagus priests, each one out on their own, some would, surely, but not all.

    Many would likely go FSSP or ICSKP.
    And a number would become sedevacantists or some variety thereof, in small groups or independent. 

    Offline Caminus

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3019
    • Reputation: +2/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #12 on: January 30, 2025, 10:42:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't necessarily agree: there are still SSPX chapels that are little more than a backroom or a garage, yet I've seen irreverent, rushed masses in exactly these locations. According to your theory, you'd expect it the other way around, but no. Also, one of the only Resistance priests in Germany, was - accidentally or not - head of the largest German priory of Rheinshausen (the German equivalent of St. Mary's). He spoke out and then got demoted to a smaller, unimportant congregation. So, money, fame or position do not necessarily corrupt good priests. Meanwhile, even hardcore monks like the Transalpine Redemptorists, originally created by some of Lefevbres first priests, fell even harder and went straight back to the Conciliar Church, despite not having great accomodations.

    Why are some people more liberal / trusting Catholic authority and some are more conservative / distrusting authority? Why do some people "get it" what the fight is about and others don't? People might speculate it has to do with physicalites, i.e. if you're physically strong then you're going to automatically more steadfast - but I haven't observed that to be the case necessarily, these characters often fall into pride. Some speculate it's because of upbringing or it's about how much they had to fight to get to their baptism, i.e. converts are usually far more "on fire" than cradle Catholics. Some people seem to be more or less predisposed / inclined to liberalism, and truth is, I don't not know why. Probably it's because of how much they pray (and more about how fervently they pray and fast). Maybe it's a humble disposition of the heart?

    Second, it also shouldn't always be like this, it's not the normal state of the Church to celebrate in garages. It may be true that the weak men -> hard times -> strong men -> good times cycle runs in the Church, but the Middle Ages had "good times" for hundreds of years. But we are not Protestants or iconoclasts who reject externalities, money or beautiful buildings in general. Maybe it was because life was harsh in general? If so, neither garage Masses nor opulent Masses will help to fix that as then the problem is modern life in general.

    In general, people get the priests they deserve. The nithe cultural Sunday Catholics will get their nithe Novus Ordo bishop and then nithely fall into hell. The people who care about the smells and bells but not fighting for the doctrine will get their FSSP-TLM and suffer constant fear about having their indult Masses taken away. The people who understand Lefevbre but are more inclined towards liberalism will get the nithe SSPX. And the rest will go and seek out the garages / remaining monasteries themselves - no effort and no distance will be too great for them to seek out the Mass with a true, uncompromising priest.

    I've recently thought about the verse "your body should be a temple". Most people nowadays, including the ones in the SSPX, are museums, not temples: maybe nice to look at, but without much love for the Eucharist inside. First of all, the people in the congregations have to be temples again, then the outside temple will come naturally.

    I don't think a financial nuke in Menzingen will change peoples behaviour, it would also completely prevent converts from finding any close Mass at all. I am a recent (2023) convert and I personally went from being raised in a Baptist-ish dispensationalist family -> NO (for 3 months, I didn't know the TLM existed) -> SSPX -> Resistance. Without the SSPX existing at that time and place, without their websites listing their Mass locations, without their youth group welcoming me at my first Mass, I would not have found the faith and would likely still be Protestant. About half of my congregation are adult converts. Not everyone has the grace of growing up in a TradCath family, and even the families who were with the "old SSPX" fell asleep at the wheel and now go along with the nithe neo-SSPX, even after I warned them.

    It's a great mystery why God picks some people over others.

    I think you are on the right track. This is a pretty good analysis. It begins and ends with the interior life. It is quite possible to love dogmatic formula more than your neighbor. 

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14642
    • Reputation: +6030/-903
    • Gender: Male
    Re: SSPX delendum est
    « Reply #13 on: January 31, 2025, 05:26:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't necessarily agree: there are still SSPX chapels that are little more than a backroom or a garage, yet I've seen irreverent, rushed masses in exactly these locations. According to your theory, you'd expect it the other way around, but no. Also, one of the only Resistance priests in Germany, was - accidentally or not - head of the largest German priory of Rheinshausen (the German equivalent of St. Mary's). He spoke out and then got demoted to a smaller, unimportant congregation. So, money, fame or position do not necessarily corrupt good priests. Meanwhile, even hardcore monks like the Transalpine Redemptorists, originally created by some of Lefevbres first priests, fell even harder and went straight back to the Conciliar Church, despite not having great accomodations.
    First, I agree with most of what both you and Matthew wrote, mainly that the SSPX higher-ups are slowly, slowly steering the SSPX into the NO, but for now to me, this is simply another hurdle in this crisis. The devil doesn't bother to work on those he already has, but he puts forth extra work 24/7 into dividing *all* those who are trying to get to heaven. He's working double over time on SSPX, so that's a given.

    As for groups like the Transalpine Redemptorists, the SSPX priests who've defected etc., we can only guess why they fell, so no need to be overly curious there, it's enough to know that they fell and that we need to re-double our resolve, through the Church, not to do the same.

    Quote
    Second, it also shouldn't always be like this, it's not the normal state of the Church to celebrate in garages. It may be true that the weak men -> hard times -> strong men -> good times cycle runs in the Church, but the Middle Ages had "good times" for hundreds of years. But we are not Protestants or iconoclasts who reject externalities, money or beautiful buildings in general. Maybe it was because life was harsh in general? If so, neither garage Masses nor opulent Masses will help to fix that as then the problem is modern life in general.
    After having attended SSPX masses for like the last 25-30 years in actual chapels that had all the "trimmings," the last year or so I've mostly attended Mass in a very small living room - just like we used to for decades since the crisis first started.
    Personally I loved the latest episode of going to Mass in the living room, it brought back a lot of many fine memories and I could easily see myself going to Mass in the living room for the rest of my life, but I think Matthew has a very good point here. The inconveniences that go along with Mass in the living room for the purpose of being present at the Holy Sacrifice and receiving the sacraments, present unique challenges that, IMO, can indeed help strengthen our faith.

    Quote
    In general, people get the priests they deserve. The nithe cultural Sunday Catholics will get their nithe Novus Ordo bishop and then nithely fall into hell. The people who care about the smells and bells but not fighting for the doctrine will get their FSSP-TLM and suffer constant fear about having their indult Masses taken away. The people who understand Lefevbre but are more inclined towards liberalism will get the nithe SSPX. And the rest will go and seek out the garages / remaining monasteries themselves - no effort and no distance will be too great for them to seek out the Mass with a true, uncompromising priest.
    Absolutely agree. This is a main reason that *for me* I view the potential demise of the SSPX as only one more phase, or ingredient, or hurdle in this crisis. For all those who are trying, one way or another, God will provide the priests, the Mass and the sacraments after the SSPX's potential demise same as He always has, for those who are trying. 


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse