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Author Topic: Pivarunas on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre  (Read 8554 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pivarunas on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2024, 06:33:03 AM »
What is the source of this theologically-confused position? Well for one, there's Pope Paul IV's cuм ex Apostolatus Officio: "...the Roman Pontiff, who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fullness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith."

I'd say this is quite a solid theological source, not the least bit confusing. How is it that he didn't know this?

The "dilemma" so-called is in his mind, a result of creating a circuмstance that actually is based on confused theology.

Well, your citation from cuм ex doesn't wash, since cuм ex indicates that a heretic Pope may be judged precisely because he's not the Pope, due to heresy.  In fact, it's astonishing that you cite cuм ex (100% out of context) as if it were support for the R&R position, when it's quite the opposite.

But, short of positing some kind of suspension of authority (as Fr. Chazal does or as sedeprivationism does), the criticism from Bishop Pivarunas is quite valid.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Pivarunas on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2024, 08:09:28 AM »
Well, your citation from cuм ex doesn't wash, since cuм ex indicates that a heretic Pope may be judged precisely because he's not the Pope, due to heresy.  In fact, it's astonishing that you cite cuм ex (100% out of context) as if it were support for the R&R position, when it's quite the opposite.

But, short of positing some kind of suspension of authority (as Fr. Chazal does or as sedeprivationism does), the criticism from Bishop Pivarunas is quite valid.
You give the perfect example of the theologically confused Bishop Pivarunas speaks of.

As if the pope begins with saying we must not judge the pope, and then contradicts himself by saying laymen and priests must judge the pope. :facepalm:

Nowhere in any teaching from any of the Fathers or popes do they tell anyone that they can, should, could or in any way must judge the pope, certainly not laymen or priests.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pivarunas on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2024, 09:30:32 AM »
You never cease to amaze, now going so far as to distort / warp cuм ex into an endorsement of R&R.  Entire point of the docuмent is that a Pope who has deviated from the faith ceases to be pope.  This reference to judging has to do with the individual, having fallen from the papacy, and not with the Pope as pope.  It's along the lines of what Pope Innocent III wrote before him:

Quote
He [the Roman Pontiff] can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy; because he who does not believe is already judged.

As Fr. Kramer points out, since Vatican I, the theological maxim papa a nemine judicandus has been elevated to near dogmatic status, and is the entire rationale for the papa haereticus ipso facto depositus position, namely, that the only way a Pope can be judged as guilty of heresy is if he's already ceased to be Pope first.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Pivarunas on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2024, 10:15:13 AM »
You never cease to amaze, now going so far as to distort / warp cuм ex into an endorsement of R&R.  Entire point of the docuмent is that a Pope who has deviated from the faith ceases to be pope.  This reference to judging has to do with the individual, having fallen from the papacy, and not with the Pope as pope.  It's along the lines of what Pope Innocent III wrote before him:
Quote
Quote
He [the Roman Pontiff] can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy; because he who does not believe is already judged.
As Fr. Kramer points out, since Vatican I, the theological maxim papa a nemine judicandus has been elevated to near dogmatic status, and is the entire rationale for the papa haereticus ipso facto depositus position, namely, that the only way a Pope can be judged as guilty of heresy is if he's already ceased to be Pope first.
ONLY to sedes is the "Entire point of the docuмent is that a Pope who has deviated from the faith ceases to be pope," only to sedes. And what, pray tell, does he mean when he says the pope may be judged by none in this world, BUT may be contradicted if he is a heretic?  If that sounds too much like R&R to you, that's because it is.

By the words in cuм ex, not only does Pope Paul IV tell us what our obligation is in that situation (contradict him), but also those words, the pope admits in an official Apostolic Constitution that a pope can indeed be a heretic. Again, if that sounds too much like R&R to you, that's because that's what it is.

Not sure where you got that quote, but your quote is not in cuм ex, which is only obvious because no pope says the pope can be judged by none in this world, then say he can be judged by men.

The dilemma is a conundrum, one that belongs to the sedes, not the SSPX.

Re: Pivarunas on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2024, 09:15:08 PM »
Yes.  +Lefebvre himself did not have any intention at first to set up a seminary, but was approached by some seminarians who couldn't deal with the Conciliar seminaries.  He initially asked Archbishop Thuc if he would set up and run the seminary, since +Thuc had started a few from scratch in Vietnam and had experience in that area (whereas +Lefebvre had not).
So what did Archbishop Lefebvre do in Africa? Sit around and swat mosquitoes??
WHAT A JOKE!!!!
A bunch of malarkey! And those who promote this garbage have infected minds that are easily manipulated.