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Poll

Do you see anything wrong with an "Ora Pro Nobis" Harley, Academy boys running in shorts, or Mass on a Jeep hood without necessity?

Yes, these things are all problematic.
16 (51.6%)
Tempest in a Teacup (i.e., nitpicking)
9 (29%)
What's the problem?
6 (19.4%)

Total Members Voted: 29

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Author Topic: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report  (Read 7743 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2020, 01:54:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 21, 2020, 01:33:46 PM
    You're mixing up fashion norms with moral norms. (It is you who is focused strictly on sin, moral norms, when Bp. Williamson said nothing about sin or regarding shorts lenght, he said Men should not wear shorts because they are the attire of children. Why do you people keep bringing up sin when talking with me, it has nothing to do with Bp. Williamson.)


    The key distinction is that shorts have been worn by the MASCULINE gender ONLY, for your time period.  If it's not a sin for boys to wear them, then it's not a sin for men either.  Strictly speaking. (there you go again with sin)
    .
    So if it's not anti-gender for the male species to wear shorts, then the only argument is that they are scandalous.  And they can be.  But typical, cargo-style, loose shorts are not.  Neither for boys nor men. (the argument of Bp. Williamson is that they are the attire of children, that is why men should not wear them) 
    .
    There's already about a 100 different threads on this topic, but the reasons for pants being wrong for women are 1) women have different modesty standards than men, 2) pants are (and have ALWAYS been) a masculine clothing item.  Women who wear pants oppose both norms.  So said Cardinal Siri in the 1960s (as well as many other clerics). (You are just like the women who oppose Bp. Williamson by saying pants are fine if they are not revealing. Bp. Williamson Men should not wear shorts because they are the attire of children)
    My response is in red above. Do you wear knee long shorts and flip flops?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #106 on: January 21, 2020, 01:54:37 PM »
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    • Quote
    Lederhosen have never been worn in this country

    A Catholic principle applies to all countries, men, and times equally.  The fact that the Germans wore such attire, for centuries, shows that it's not against Catholic principles for men to dress this way.  Ergo, you don't understand the word 'principle' and are applying it incorrectly. 
    .
    Your argument should be concerning 'societal norms' which can (and do) change.  Such norms can cause scandal for others who are not used to them (say, if you visited Germany during Octoberfest, you'd probably be scandalized at the hairy calfs of german men, while all of Germany wouldn't see a problem at all).  Such scandal can be unavoidable or sinful, depending on the circuмstances.  But this has nothing do with Catholic Principles, in the formal sense.


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    Offline ca246

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #107 on: January 21, 2020, 01:56:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on January 21, 2020, 01:03:20 PM
    If everything Catholic required what you ask for "Bible, or in any ecuмenical or regional council, or in any papal bull or encyclical, or in the compilations of Denziger, Ott, Tanquery" we could damn near do anything.

    Take up your argument with Bp. Willianson. He says men should not wear shorts because it is the clothing of children.

    By the way, what does wearing shorts have to do with the rain, that's a new one on me and I'm in my 60's and have lived in a for all intents a rain forest practically all of my life.
    Damnation is a serious matter and you shouldn't throw words around like that. Yet on the contrary, I can't think of any particular serious sin that's not condemned either in the Bible or any of the docuмents mentioned. Anyone who knows that there is a binding ecclesiastical rule against wearing shorts sins against charity if they willfully refuse to share it but instead just downvote my comment. I appreciate many things about the bishop, but even if he were a pope, such personal opinions are not binding. I also that shorts are only proper for boys and young men but that is only a custom and nobody here has the power to bind this on all Catholics. Also, some people don't enjoy getting the bottom of their pants wet in the rain especially if there is any level of flooding. In sixty years you have never ran or used a bicycle in rainy conditions?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #108 on: January 21, 2020, 01:56:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on January 21, 2020, 01:30:39 PM
    Typical trad of today in the Summer, shorts and flip and flops, just like anyone of the world. Bp. Williamson is stepping on their toes:


    So, Matthew, Ladi, Pax and others, do you wear these shorts and flip flops?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #109 on: January 21, 2020, 01:59:16 PM »
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    the argument of Bp. Williamson is that they are the attire of children

    They were...for a time...in America.  Key phrase = "for a time".  Now, shorts are commonplace, for men, since the 1960s.
    .
    One could argue that in the 1800s, when boys started wearing shorts, that these were sinful too, because it wasn't common. 
    Quote
    Do you wear knee long shorts and flip flops?
    Irrelevant.  But now flip flops are sinful?  hahahahahahaha.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #110 on: January 21, 2020, 02:02:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 21, 2020, 01:54:37 PM
    A Catholic principle applies to all countries, men, and times equally.  The fact that the Germans wore such attire, for centuries, shows that it's not against Catholic principles for men to dress this way.  Ergo, you don't understand the word 'principle' and are applying it incorrectly.  
    .
    Your argument should be concerning 'societal norms' which can (and do) change.  Such norms can cause scandal for others who are not used to them (say, if you visited Germany during Octoberfest, you'd probably be scandalized at the hairy calfs of german men, while all of Germany wouldn't see a problem at all).  Such scandal can be unavoidable or sinful, depending on the circuмstances.  But this has nothing do with Catholic Principles, in the formal sense.

    And of course, as has been pointed out several times, you (and Laxislaus) only desire to look at the issue in the OP from the perspective of modesty.

    Noblesse oblige makes no impression on you at all, nor the feminizing-softening of manhood the kids will need later.

    Nor does the assimilation into modern worldly standards bother you.

    And of course, the only reason I posted this pic in the first place (ie., the SSPX now promoting wearing shorts vs their consistent teaching to the opposite until recently, and not just Bishop Williamson: Almost every SSPX priest in this country counseled against shorts (for all these reasons, in addition to the matter of modesty), so I have no idea why Matthew is suddenly drawing a blank on the matter.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #111 on: January 21, 2020, 02:04:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on January 21, 2020, 01:56:36 PM
    So, Matthew, Ladi, Pax and others, do you wear these shorts and flip flops?
    Almost certainly.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #112 on: January 21, 2020, 02:05:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on January 21, 2020, 01:54:13 PM
    My response is in red above. Do you wear knee long shorts and flip flops?

    If you're not talking about sin, then why is this even an issue? Preferences, especially based on one generational culture, are completely arbitrary. One is literally as good as another. And in case of the Baby Boomer culture, I would say their culture/way/opinion is automatically inferior if anything. But that's just my opinion ;)


    When it comes to almost every free choice in matters of culture, I go the exact opposite way of the Baby Boomers. There are some fine Catholics from that generation, so don't take this personally, but frankly I have zero respect for their culture as a whole. America descended downhill further under their watch than under any other generation, past or since.

    Baby Boomers: accepted the 30-year mortgage as a normal fact of life, started the "monthly payment for everything" debt-as-a-way-of-life mentality, limited their families, women went back to work en masse, women wore lots of makeup/earrings, women wore pants (though this started one generation earlier; the BB cemented this trend), sent their kids to public school, went with hospitals and increased C-sections to 35% of births (instead of the old solution: midwives), formula fed their babies, started the daycare/"latch key kid" phenomenon, they represent an economic model that no longer exists, but they think it does and judge later generations accordingly (for example, working for the same company 40 years and getting a company pension). That is just the beginning.

    They accepted Vatican II and its priests and faithful are responsible for the new religion being accepted and propagated. They were entering adulthood as the New Mass was being promoted -- and they, as a whole, accepted it. The biggest defenders of the new religion today are Baby Boomers. Younger generations are starting to wake up.

    Even small things like beards I disagree with them on. They still think a short haircut and clean-shave is the only dignified look for a man. Only the "hippies" and "rebels" of their generation -- looked down upon by BB I might add -- dare to grow a beard. Another strike for the BB culture. I am completely with the Millennials on this one. The Beard came back with their generation.

    I could probably go on for hours, but I don't have the time.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #113 on: January 21, 2020, 02:16:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on January 21, 2020, 02:05:14 PM
    If you're not talking about sin, then why is this even an issue?
    The modesty issue is just one issue.
    I named several additional considerations above, and find it hard to believe any trad of whatever persuasion would disagree (unless they want to argue there’s nothing wrong with being worldly effeminate slobs, which few would admit).
    Hardly the stuff to make many converts with, and reflects poorly on the church.
    I do understand the temptation to do the bare minimum you can get away with without sinning, but it certainly isn’t edifying.
    That kind of worldliness is en route to the Novus Ordo (which is why immodesty, slobbery, worldliness, laziness, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, effeminacy, and softness predominate there).
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #114 on: January 21, 2020, 02:18:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on January 21, 2020, 02:08:40 PM
    Wearing shorts for sporting activities (even recreational activity) does not feminize or soften a young man....that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life.  
    Better said:
    “It never occurred to me that wearing shorts encouraged effeminacy and softness in boys.  But having read the quote you provided from the author, I will have to reflect on it.”
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #115 on: January 21, 2020, 02:21:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on January 21, 2020, 07:52:32 AM
    Bishop Willamson taught that men should not wear shorts, so I stopped wearing shorts, no big deal.

    Those are hairy legged men in the pictures, not little children.

    Where I live it is very hot, and yet it is not wise to wear shorts because of sunburn, bug bites (mosquito, fire ants, wasps, chiggers, no-see-ums...…), thorn cuts, scrapes, muffler burns...…
    Above is my first posting on the subject of shorts, it is very clear Bishop Willamson taught that shorts are the attire of children and that men should not wear shorts, so I stopped wearing shorts, no big deal".

    It made sense to me, and no big deal.

    I am one that learns from experience, and the next time the debate comes up on men wearing shorts I will just save a lot of time and say:


    Quote
    Bishop Willamson taught that shorts are the attire of children and that men should not wear shorts, so I stopped wearing shorts, no big deal.

    Anyone that insists on contradicting Bp. Williamson, please first state if you wear long shorts and flip flops similar to these.




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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #116 on: January 21, 2020, 02:22:40 PM »
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    • Can’t wait for MSN’s next trans-phobic propaganda hit piece against Christians:  “A sobbing Baptist minister’s wife complains: ‘Cargo shorts turned my son gαy’”

    Sean called it.  If it happens by 2021, I’ll drink Sean’s kool-aid.  Hahaha
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #117 on: January 21, 2020, 02:31:32 PM »
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    • Quote
    Better said:
    “It never occurred to me that wearing shorts encouraged effeminacy and softness in boys.
    Last time I checked, the explosion of the gαy 60s happened with the intro of satin suits, pastel colors, and bell-bottoms...not shorts.  

    Maybe i missed the statistics which showed homo-saturation in the Boy Scouts, who always wore shorts.  And let’s not forget the counter-cultural solution to effeminacy, proven by the entire 80s generation - Chuck Norris/Stallone/Arnold movies and popped collars on polo shirts.  Boy George never had a chance. He was a few decades too early.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #118 on: January 21, 2020, 02:35:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 21, 2020, 02:31:32 PM
    Last time I checked, the explosion of the gαy 60s happened with the intro of satin suits, pastel colors, and bell-bottoms...not shorts.  

    Maybe i missed the statistics which showed homo-saturation in the Boy Scouts, who always wore shorts.  And let’s not forget the counter-cultural solution to effeminacy, proven by the entire 80s generation - Chuck Norris/Stallone/Arnold movies and popped collars on polo shirts.  Boy George never had a chance. He was a few decades too early.
    Bishop Willamson taught that shorts are the attire of children and that men should not wear shorts, so I stopped wearing shorts, no big deal.

    Anyone that insists on contradicting Bp. Williamson, please first state if you wear long shorts and flip flops similar to these.

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #119 on: January 21, 2020, 02:36:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 21, 2020, 02:22:40 PM
    Can’t wait for MSN’s next trans-phobic propaganda hit piece against Christians:  “A sobbing Baptist minister’s wife complains: ‘Cargo shorts turned my son gαy’”

    Sean called it.  If it happens by 2021, I’ll drink Sean’s kool-aid.  Hahaha
    Once again, you make exaggerations to discredit the principle (as though for a principle to be true, it must stand in every circuмstance, a quality reserved only for metaphysical principles and negative divine positive law, and dogma), in this case pretending I am arguing that if a child dons a pair of shorts, he has just turned himself queer, instead of acknowledging there may be some merit to the idea that forbidding shorts to children is a discipline and training in masculinity by helping toughen them to enduring discomfort, heat, and constraint of movement (and conversely, that relenting to their desire for shorts fire goes this masculinizing discipline), in addition to all the other reasons adduced for avoiding shorts.
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