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Poll

Do you see anything wrong with an "Ora Pro Nobis" Harley, Academy boys running in shorts, or Mass on a Jeep hood without necessity?

Yes, these things are all problematic.
16 (51.6%)
Tempest in a Teacup (i.e., nitpicking)
9 (29%)
What's the problem?
6 (19.4%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report  (Read 7382 times)

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Offline Ekim

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Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2020, 04:21:50 PM »
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  • Fr. Novak has a history of celebrating Mass in “Historical” locations as a lesson to all of what we have lost and an attempt to restore all things to Christ.  

    I have not seen the photo of Father offering the Holy Sacrifice on a Jeep hood but I am guessing it was part of his annual pilgrimage to Fr Kapun tomb where he and dozens of pilgrims hike 33 miles in reparation to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  I am confident that this was NOT done as a novelty but rather in honor of Fr.Kapun and a reminder to all present of the sacrifices and extreme measures that Priests and Catholics would go to for the Holy Sacrifice of theMass.  

    See “North Carolina” https://www.truerestoration.org/fr-paul-robinson-st-thomas-pro-cathedral-2006-wilmington-north-carolina/

    Mass offered on The Battleship USS North Carolina:

    https://www.truerestoration.org/fr-kenneth-novak-battleship-north-carolina-2006/

    May God continue to bless Fr Novak, and May His sweet Blessed Mother keep him always in her care.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #16 on: January 20, 2020, 04:27:29 PM »
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  • I am confident that this was NOT done as a novelty but rather in honor of Fr.Kapun and a reminder to all present of the sacrifices and extreme measures that Priests and Catholics would go to for the Holy Sacrifice of theMass.

    I'm sure he had "good reasons," but what I'm arguing is that they are misguided and wrong, and not in keeping with the Church's mind.  In other words, I'm sure he MEANT well.  But Beroglgio also MEANT well in putting the beach ball on the altar.  Not too many steps away from offering Mass sitting Indian-style in a wigwam while passing a peace pipe around.  We assist at Mass on account of the Mass, and not for the novelty of the setting.  That jeep served as little more than a distraction from the attention that needed to be paid to the Mass itself.


    Offline Ekim

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #17 on: January 20, 2020, 04:41:09 PM »
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  • I'm sure he had "good reasons," but what I'm arguing is that they are misguided and wrong, and not in keeping with the Church's mind.  Not too many steps away from offering Mass sitting Indian-style in a wigwam while passing a peace pipe around.  We assist at Mass on account of the Mass, and not for the novelty of the setting.  That jeep served as little more than a distraction from the attention that needed to be paid to the Mass itself.
    Definitely don’t agree.  Without being there, not knowing the context, or the priest, you assume that it is a Novusordoesque novelty serving as a distraction.    This could not be further from the truth.  You should be careful when you assume.  To lump this sacred and reverential act in Honor of the SHJ/IHM and Fr. Kapun to a blasphemous “beachball Mess” is a HUGE leap,  scandalizing a very good priest.
    The solemnity of the Sacrifice was not lost and the devotion to the cause of Fr. Kapun was magnified.
    Mary Help of Christians...Pray for us!

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #18 on: January 20, 2020, 04:53:26 PM »
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  • Definitely don’t agree.  Without being there, not knowing the context, or the priest, you assume that it is a Novusordoesque novelty serving as a distraction.    This could not be further from the truth.  You should be careful when you assume.  To lump this sacred and reverential act in Honor of the SHJ/IHM and Fr. Kapun to a blasphemous “beachball Mess” is a HUGE leap,  scandalizing a very good priest.
    The solemnity of the Sacrifice was not lost and the devotion to the cause of Fr. Kapun was magnified.
    Mary Help of Christians...Pray for us!

    Why does Ladislaus "need to be there?"  Its Mass on the hood of a Jeep, without necessity, for a sentimental motive?  

    Not sure how you can construe it as "reverential," when it is obviously nearly the textbook definition of irreverence (except again at the level of sentimentality).

    Do you think Fr. Kapuan smiled or wept when he found out about this?

    If Fr. Novak wanted to honor Fr. Kapuan, he didn't have to degrade the Mass to do it.  And he just as easily could have said Mass in a proper chapel.

    "Devotion to Fr. Kapuan was magnified," I have no doubt.

    But the honor to Our Lord was diminished.

    Maybe they could have used an army mess kit for a paten to really "honor Fr. Kapuan?"

    Do you think Fr. Kapuan would have said Mass on a Jeep if a proper altar had been readily available?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #19 on: January 20, 2020, 04:54:27 PM »
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  • Definitely don’t agree.  Without being there, not knowing the context, or the priest, you assume that it is a Novusordoesque novelty serving as a distraction.    This could not be further from the truth.  You should be careful when you assume.  To lump this sacred and reverential act in Honor of the SHJ/IHM and Fr. Kapun to a blasphemous “beachball Mess” is a HUGE leap,  scandalizing a very good priest.
    The solemnity of the Sacrifice was not lost and the devotion to the cause of Fr. Kapun was magnified.
    Mary Help of Christians...Pray for us!

    This was clearly done in a spirit of creating a "show" and introducing novelty; and the faithful participating are undoubtedly distracted from giving the Mass their full attention on account of the strangeness of the venue.

    I don't have access to the 1917 Code, but even the new Code of Canon Law specifies that Mass must be celebrated in a "sacred place unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise."  I suspect that the 1917 Code is even more strict and specific.

    Quote
    Can. 932 §1. The eucharistic celebration is to be carried out in a sacred place unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise; in such a case the celebration must be done in a decent place.



    Offline Ekim

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #20 on: January 20, 2020, 04:58:07 PM »
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  • See “North Carolina”

    http://archives.sspx.org/rcr_pdfs/2006_rcrs/november_2006_rcr.pdf

    Trust me, there was nothing “novel” about this.  It was a first hand lesson in Catholic History.  It fired up dozens of young Catholic Teenagers and adults alike to reclaim their Catholic culture and treasures that have been lost....not to mention the months, weeks, days that it took to plan and organize....all for the greater honor and glory of God and a living testament to the immemorial Tridentine Mass!

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #21 on: January 20, 2020, 04:59:28 PM »
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  • See “North Carolina”

    http://archives.sspx.org/rcr_pdfs/2006_rcrs/november_2006_rcr.pdf

    Trust me, there was nothing “novel” about this.  It was a first hand lesson in Catholic History.  It fired up dozens of young Catholic Teenagers and adults alike to reclaim their Catholic culture and treasures that have been lost....not to mention the months, weeks, days that it took to plan and organize....all for the greater honor and glory of God and a living testament to the immemorial Tridentine Mass!
    The Mass is not purposed to be an education in history.

    And your statement about being "fired up" is pure Novus Ordo: Exciting the emotions and sentiment.

    Baloney.

    I'm with Ladislaus: This was two steps away from the beach ball Mass (and by your own description, motivated by exactly the same sentimental impulses).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #22 on: January 20, 2020, 05:04:09 PM »
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  • See “North Carolina”

    http://archives.sspx.org/rcr_pdfs/2006_rcrs/november_2006_rcr.pdf

    Trust me, there was nothing “novel” about this.  It was a first hand lesson in Catholic History.  It fired up dozens of young Catholic Teenagers and adults alike to reclaim their Catholic culture and treasures that have been lost....not to mention the months, weeks, days that it took to plan and organize....all for the greater honor and glory of God and a living testament to the immemorial Tridentine Mass!

    Nonsense: The Mass you linked to on the battleship took place on a proper Catholic altar.

    Fr. Novak's Mass took place on the hood of a Jeep, without necessity, and against both codes of canon law (and is therefore obviously not the mind of the Church).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ekim

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #23 on: January 20, 2020, 05:04:53 PM »
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  • This was clearly done in a spirit of creating a "show" and introducing novelty; and the faithful participating are undoubtedly distracted from giving the Mass their full attention on account of the strangeness of the venue.

    WRONG!  

    You shouldnt assume that you know Fathers intent.  Even when you are told his intent, you still insist otherwise.  You shouldn’t do that.

    His intent was to imitate this holy and venerable priest (Fr Kapun) and honor the SHJ and IHM....and nothing more.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #24 on: January 20, 2020, 05:07:24 PM »
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  • Fr. Novak's intent does not suffice to overcome canon law, and the obligation to celebrate Mass on a proper altar if one is present.

    Neither does the desire to imitate, without necessity that which another priest only did necause of necessity.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ekim

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #25 on: January 20, 2020, 05:07:35 PM »
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  • Nonsense: The Mass you linked to on the battleship took place on a proper Catholic altar.

    Fr. Novak's Mass took place on the hood of a Jeep, without necessity, and against both codes of canon law (and is therefore obviously not the mind of the Church).
    The link was provided to show that Father has a history of offering Mass in historic context only, no comparison to a Jeep was made or implied.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #26 on: January 20, 2020, 05:10:03 PM »
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  • The link was provided to show that Father has a history of offering Mass in historic context only, no comparison to a Jeep was made or implied.

    Whether or not a priest has a history of celebrating Masses in historic venues is immaterial to the present conversation (and not in dispute), whose only consideration is whether or not it is appropriate to celebrate Mass on the hood of a Jeep without there being a necessity of doing so.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ekim

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #27 on: January 20, 2020, 05:10:58 PM »
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  • Fr. Novak's intent does not suffice to overcome canon law, and the obligation to celebrate Mass on a proper altar if one is present.

    Neither does the desire to imitate, without necessity that which another priest only did necause
    What constitutes a “proper altar” on a 33 mile trek?  I’m sure there wasn’t one “present”.  Altar stone was present as well as sacred linens, candles, vessels, and crucifix.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #28 on: January 20, 2020, 05:12:32 PM »
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  • What constitutes a “proper altar” on a 33 mile trek?  Altar stone was present as well as sacred linens.

    You said the pilgrimage was months in the planning.

    But nobody thought about bringing or constructing an altar if one was not present (like on every other Catholic pilgrimage)? 
     
    Why?

    Answer: Because they wanted to celebrate it on the hood of the Jeep.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ekim

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #29 on: January 20, 2020, 05:24:59 PM »
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  • Why does Ladislaus "need to be there?"  Its Mass on the hood of a Jeep, without necessity, for a sentimental motive?  

    Not sure how you can construe it as "reverential," when it is obviously nearly the textbook definition of irreverence (except again at the level of sentimentality).

    Do you think Fr. Kapuan smiled or wept when he found out about this?

    If Fr. Novak wanted to honor Fr. Kapuan, he didn't have to degrade the Mass to do it.  And he just as easily could have said Mass in a proper chapel.

    "Devotion to Fr. Kapuan was magnified," I have no doubt.

    But the honor to Our Lord was diminished.

    Maybe they could have used an army mess kit for a paten to really "honor Fr. Kapuan?"

    Do you think Fr. Kapuan would have said Mass on a Jeep if a proper altar had been readily available?
    You too assume much, even Fr. Kapun’s tears in heaven...WOW!
    Reverence is not restricted to gold and marble, it can found on wood, plaster, and even the hood of a Jeep.
    Reverence is a disposition that can be inspired in the most humble of places.
    You’d probably refuse to visit the babe in the lowly manger, couldn’t possibly muster up any reverence in such a deplorable location.
    HA!