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Poll

Do you see anything wrong with an "Ora Pro Nobis" Harley, Academy boys running in shorts, or Mass on a Jeep hood without necessity?

Yes, these things are all problematic.
16 (51.6%)
Tempest in a Teacup (i.e., nitpicking)
9 (29%)
What's the problem?
6 (19.4%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report  (Read 7702 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2020, 12:59:36 PM »
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  • Quote
    Your only focus on everything seems to be a whether it is sinful or not.
    The reason for this is 1) if it's not a sin for all men, that means the action is a morally neutral action.  2) Morally neutral actions CAN BE sinful based on circuмstances, or intentions, or not sinful at all.


    Quote
    Shorts are the clothes of children,
    If we define "shorts" as a clothing item which covers the waist down to the knees, then you're wrong.  History is full of examples where men commonly wore such attire 1) with no danger of moral scandal, and 2) with no insinuations of de-masculinity. 
    .
    German Lederhosen, Scottish Kilts, European 1700-1800s dress, Roman Centurian battle gear, etc.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #91 on: January 21, 2020, 01:03:20 PM »
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  • ... I really don't understand what is wrong with short pants. How are you supposed to go around in the rain? Would you rather that we all wore skirts? Around the world, countless people are in heresy and faithlessness, on the way to hell... but there are people wasting their time and energy about this?! Lederhosen have been used since when...And where is the papal condemnation?! Please, I beg that someone show me where in the Bible, or in any ecuмenical or regional council, or in any papal bull or encyclical, or in the compilations of Denziger, Ott, Tanquery, etc... does it say that men can't wear short pants (long enough to reach the knee), and I will take immediate action!
    If everything Catholic required what you ask for "Bible, or in any ecuмenical or regional council, or in any papal bull or encyclical, or in the compilations of Denziger, Ott, Tanquery" we could damn near do anything.

    Take up your argument with Bp. Willianson. He says men should not wear shorts because it is the clothing of children.

    By the way, what does wearing shorts have to do with the rain, that's a new one on me and I'm in my 60's and have lived in a for all intents a rain forest practically all of my life.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #92 on: January 21, 2020, 01:09:48 PM »
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  • The reason for this is 1) if it's not a sin for all men, that means the action is a morally neutral action.  2) Morally neutral actions CAN BE sinful based on circuмstances, or intentions, or not sinful at all.

    If we define "shorts" as a clothing item which covers the waist down to the knees, then you're wrong.  History is full of examples where men commonly wore such attire 1) with no danger of moral scandal, and 2) with no insinuations of de-masculinity.
    .
    German Lederhosen, Scottish Kilts, European 1700-1800s dress, Roman Centurian battle gear, etc.

    Thank you.  People really need to start thinking about things instead of just mindlessly repeating something that was once heard (likely taken out of context) from Bishop Williamson.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #93 on: January 21, 2020, 01:13:54 PM »
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  • German Lederhosen, Scottish Kilts, European 1700-1800s dress, Roman Centurian battle gear, etc.
    How about the French tights, they covered everything and were worn by everyone? Those are all examples of attire of a particular country and time, everyone wore them. Nobody would wear them today outside of those countries and times. In our times, the late 1800's till present, shorts have not been the attire of men, but of little boys only.

    Maybe we should all wear diapers, since it is has always been the attire of the poor Hindus in India?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #94 on: January 21, 2020, 01:17:49 PM »
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  • Thank you.  People really need to start thinking about things instead of just mindlessly repeating something that was once heard (likely taken out of context) from Bishop Williamson.
    I've repeated over and over what Bp. Williamson said,  "that shorts should not be worn by men because it is the attire of children", if you choose to ignore it that's your choice, however, don't put your own spin on what Bp. Williamson said.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #95 on: January 21, 2020, 01:21:13 PM »
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  • Exactly.  And computerized car engines, remote controls of all kinds, automatic garage doors, computers of all types, instant coffee and let's not forget the steam engine.
    .Exactly.  And Scottish kilts too.  Or what about the 1700-1800s when guys wore shorts to their knees, with knee-high white socks?  (i.e. Benjamin Franklin times)
    I guess you didn’t want to hear what I had to say, so you contrived extreme examples in order to reject the principles.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #96 on: January 21, 2020, 01:22:48 PM »
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  • Quote
    Last Tradhican posted three times to Ladislaus:
    By the way, by your only WHY, immodesty,
    you would not have a leg to stand on with regard to women wearing loose fitting pants. Bp. Williamson also taught that women can't wear pants, and it was not only because of immodesty like for instance tight form fitting jeans, it was because pants are the clothing on men. In this case of the shorts, there is a similar WHY they should not be worn by men,  it is because they are the clothes of children, my #2 above.
    Never received a response from Ladislaus or anyone else for that matter. Those of you that gauge shorts strictly by sin, how do you respond to women who wear loose unrevealing pants? That's another well known teaching of Bp. Williamson, that women should not wear any pants.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #97 on: January 21, 2020, 01:28:07 PM »
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  • Exactly.  And computerized car engines, remote controls of all kinds, automatic garage doors, computers of all types, instant coffee and let's not forget the steam engine.
    .Exactly.  And Scottish kilts too.  Or what about the 1700-1800s when guys wore shorts to their knees, with knee-high white socks?  (i.e. Benjamin Franklin times)
    Lederhosen have never been worn in this country (and we are only discussing what the SSPX has passed along to us as Catholic teachings on modesty in this country, from the 90’s vs today, as I have specified several times), and anyone wearing them would be suspected of being queer.

    This is just another attempt to justify shorts by citing extreme examples in order to disregard the principles against wearing them.

    The conversation is not about comparing standards of modesty throughout the world, but whether -at least in practice, and in this country- the SSPX is contradicting their former arguments.

    I consider that conclusion indisputable.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #98 on: January 21, 2020, 01:30:39 PM »
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  • Typical trad of today in the Summer, shorts and flip and flops, just like anyone of the world. Bp. Williamson is stepping on their toes:


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #99 on: January 21, 2020, 01:32:00 PM »
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  • How about the French tights, they covered everything and were worn by everyone? Those are all examples of attire of a particular country and time, everyone wore them. Nobody would wear them today outside of those countries and times. In our times, the late 1800's till present, shorts have not been the attire of men, but of little boys only.

    Maybe we should all wear diapers, since it is has always been the attire of the poor Hindus in India?
    😂😂😂😂
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #100 on: January 21, 2020, 01:33:46 PM »
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    How about the French tights, they covered everything and were worn by everyone? Those are all examples of attire of a particular country and time, everyone wore them. Nobody would wear them today outside of those countries and times.
    You're mixing up fashion norms with moral norms.


    Quote
    In our times, the late 1800's till present, shorts have not been the attire of men, but of little boys only.

    The key distinction is that shorts have been worn by the MASCULINE gender ONLY, for your time period.  If it's not a sin for boys to wear them, then it's not a sin for men either.  Strictly speaking.
    .
    So if it's not anti-gender for the male species to wear shorts, then the only argument is that they are scandalous.  And they can be.  But typical, cargo-style, loose shorts are not.  Neither for boys nor men.
    .
    Quote
    Those of you that gauge shorts strictly by sin, how do you respond to women who wear loose unrevealing pants? That's another well known teaching of Bp. Williamson, that women should not wear any pants.

    There's already about a 100 different threads on this topic, but the reasons for pants being wrong for women are 1) women have different modesty standards than men, 2) pants are (and have ALWAYS been) a masculine clothing item.  Women who wear pants oppose both norms.  So said Cardinal Siri in the 1960s (as well as many other clerics).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #101 on: January 21, 2020, 01:36:59 PM »
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    This is just another attempt to justify shorts by citing extreme examples in order to disregard the principles against wearing them.
    German Lederhosen, Scottish Kilts, European 1700-1800s dress, Roman Centurian battle gear - there is nothing EXTREME about these examples.  These were all worn by men of all types, for decades.  There has never been any Catholic condemnation against this fashion, therefore your "principles" don't exist.  (That, or you don't understand what a principle means, which must apply to men, of all times, in all situations).

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #102 on: January 21, 2020, 01:40:37 PM »
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  • Where I come from everyone that wore shorts and flip flops got their butts kicked, one couldn't run away with flip flops nor defend themselves like they could with shoes. You'd never catch me with flip flops.  How about earrings and long hair? First thing I'd do in a fight is rip your ear or nose off by grabbing the rings, or grab you by the hair and scalp you. But, that's just me, always expecting someone to jump me.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #103 on: January 21, 2020, 01:45:43 PM »
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  • I've repeated over and over what Bp. Williamson said,  "that shorts should not be worn by men because it is the attire of children", if you choose to ignore it that's your choice, however, don't put your own spin on what Bp. Williamson said.

    If Bishop Williamson did say that (I'd like to see the quote), then he was wrong. Period. The fact that he hasn't preached this in-and-out of season suggests it might be his opinion, which he offered at one time or another. Remember, +W isn't dogmatic about things that are not Catholic dogma. He's very good about that.

    There is nothing wrong with knee-length cargo shorts on men. Any hang-up against men wearing such shorts is cultural at best and a product of the time one grew up in. It is in the realm of culture and opinion, not Catholic principles which must apply to all men in all times.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #104 on: January 21, 2020, 01:46:40 PM »
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  • German Lederhosen, Scottish Kilts, European 1700-1800s dress, Roman Centurian battle gear - there is nothing EXTREME about these examples.  These were all worn by men of all types, for decades.  There has never been any Catholic condemnation against this fashion, therefore your "principles" don't exist.  (That, or you don't understand what a principle means, which must apply to men, of all times, in all situations).
    Refuted above, but you chose to ignore it, so here it is again:

    Lederhosen have never been worn in this country (and we are only discussing what the SSPX has passed along to us as Catholic teachings on modesty in this country, from the 90’s vs today, as I have specified several times), and anyone wearing them would be suspected of being queer.

    This is just another attempt to justify shorts by citing extreme examples in order to disregard the principles against wearing them.

    The conversation is not about comparing standards of modesty throughout the world, but whether -at least in practice, and in this country- the SSPX is contradicting their former arguments.

    I consider that conclusion indisputable
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."