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Poll

Do you see anything wrong with an "Ora Pro Nobis" Harley, Academy boys running in shorts, or Mass on a Jeep hood without necessity?

Yes, these things are all problematic.
16 (51.6%)
Tempest in a Teacup (i.e., nitpicking)
9 (29%)
What's the problem?
6 (19.4%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report  (Read 7696 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2020, 10:43:12 AM »
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  • Knee-length "shorts" were common in Catholics schools in the first part of the last century.  I'm honestly not seeing the problem with these.  It's almost like people merely hear the term "shorts" and get "triggered" by the word.
    I’m not that bad, I don’t get “triggered” that easily. I see it as just another step on the way to the inevitable destruction of society. I see fashions as having played a major role.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #76 on: January 21, 2020, 10:44:25 AM »
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  • I do ask Why with regard to a practice. Your only Why, immodestly, only applies to short shorts, and Bp. Williamson never said that immodesty was the ONLY Why. Here are some of my why's:

    They are sloven and low class
    They are the clothes of children
    They serves no purpose other than fashion (a purpose would be basketball, or swimming, then your WHY of modesty would come into play on the length)
    One opens themselves to sunburn, bug bites, thorns, cuts, bruises....
    "Do onto other as you would have them do onto you" - I don't want to see other men's hairy legs, no calf or cankles, so, I do not wear shorts myself.
    Hear, hear! Apart from the all important modesty issue, pants are far more comfortable to wear in any weather. On the rare and now rarer occasions when it does get hot up here in the near Arctic ;), a pair of light pants keeps you cooler. I dont want to advertise my body parts esp those that bear surgical scars.
    If I ran a boys school, field dress would be like onto that of a crusader, Templar or Hospitaler. Modest and militant. With all due respect to all the Lady of Carmel schools et al, we could use a St. Michael the Archangel Academy in the Resistance.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #77 on: January 21, 2020, 10:49:41 AM »
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  • Yes, I too agree that shorts in general are immodest.  Not that they would typically constitute any "occasion of sin" for girls who happen to behold their hairy legs, but, rather because I consider modesty to be a broader concept.  But these things are long enough where modesty is not a consideration really.

    With regard to dignity, that's a little slippery.  If I am a farmer and wear grungy clothes or overalls, or if I just wear jeans in general, one might make the case that thy are "undignified".  But just as it would be perfectly appropriate to compromise dignity a bit so that a man can do farm work without wearing his Sunday best, so too I don't think there's any problem with wearing these knee-length shorts in order to run.  I do not consider this level of "indignity" to be sinful ... given the context.  Now, if these boys were to dress like this at, say, the grocery store, I would consider that slovenly and undignified, and perhaps a very slight sin with regard to being sloppy, but I'm not seeing any offense against modesty or against masculinity (these shorts do not appear at all feminine).  Dressing like that for Mass, of course, would certainly be unacceptable.  Now, those 1970s short shorts were both extremely immodest and effeminate ... to the point that the men wearing them could easily be taken for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs.  But I'm not seeing that with these either.
    Generally I’m in agreement with you. Wearing a jogging suit would be a better choice. All are very good points you make!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #78 on: January 21, 2020, 11:02:10 AM »
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  • I don’t agree with everything this lady says in her article, but I do agree with this part:

    Shorts have a way of feminizing boys, softening them. In 1999 in my book, Immodesty, Satan’s Virtue, I wrote and still hold to today,
    Boys, to become men in the true sense, should be trained from a young age to be able to withstand the rigors of weather and discomfort. Even the discomforts of wearing pants; when it is very warm. We want our boys to grow up to become men who are strong, courageous and impervious to discomforts. “

    https://www.littleflowersfamilypress.com/why-must-catholic-boys-men-be-modest/

    But if boys grow up to be men without these qualities, as is the general rule nowadays, they are cupcakes, sissies, whiners, quitters, complainers, etc.

    Wearing pants at all times is a meritorious training and a discipline for the development of masculinity and manly qualities (in addition to the expectation that traditional Catholics are rightly held to a higher standard - noblesse oblige).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #79 on: January 21, 2020, 11:16:06 AM »
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  • There are a 1,000,000 "comforts" of modern life that one could argue erode catholicity.  Doesn't mean they are sinful.  They CAN be, but aren't necessarily.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #80 on: January 21, 2020, 11:23:58 AM »
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  • There are a 1,000,000 "comforts" of modern life that one could argue erode catholicity.  Doesn't mean they are sinful.  They CAN be, but aren't necessarily.

    Terrible argument, which runs squarely against the spirit of mortification, penance, nobility, modesty, masculinity, etc:

    If it isn’t sinful, let it slide.

    That’s not the Catholic way, and implies a disregard for the pursuit of perfection.

    We raise others to our level by setting an edifying example, rather than sinking to worldly reasonings and standards (Vatican II).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #81 on: January 21, 2020, 11:36:34 AM »
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  • I don’t agree with everything this lady says in her article, but I do agree with this part:

    Shorts have a way of feminizing boys, softening them. In 1999 in my book, Immodesty, Satan’s Virtue, I wrote and still hold to today,
    Boys, to become men in the true sense, should be trained from a young age to be able to withstand the rigors of weather and discomfort. Even the discomforts of wearing pants; when it is very warm. We want our boys to grow up to become men who are strong, courageous and impervious to discomforts. “

    https://www.littleflowersfamilypress.com/why-must-catholic-boys-men-be-modest/

    But if boys grow up to be men without these qualities, as is the general rule nowadays, they are cupcakes, sissies, whiners, quitters, complainers, etc.

    Wearing pants at all times is a meritorious training and a discipline for the development of masculinity and manly qualities (in addition to the expectation that traditional Catholics are rightly held to a higher standard - noblesse oblige).

    I don't think this is being done for comfort in this case ... just to better enable them to compete in a particular endeavor.  I think that the assumption here is of wearing shorts on a regular basis because it's too "hot".  There seems to be too much conflation of concerns.  This title suggests that it's a "modesty" issue.  But then this thing about it turning them into sissies is a completely different concern.  As was the earlier comment that they have practical issues.

    I can argue that using a power drill to drive in a few dozen screws makes me a "sissy" ... or that I feel that I have better use for the couple hours of my time this would save.  Or it softens women to do laundry using a washing machine.  Yeah, maybe, but what if a woman suddenly has time to homeschool instead of having to do laundry, dishes, etc. by hand every day?  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #82 on: January 21, 2020, 11:40:36 AM »
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  • I don't think this is being done for comfort in this case ... just to better enable them to compete in a particular endeavor.  I think that the assumption here is of wearing shorts on a regular basis because it's too "hot".

    If that were true, they would be wearing jogging pants.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #83 on: January 21, 2020, 11:43:18 AM »
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  • Yes, I too agree that shorts in general are immodest.  Not that they would typically constitute any "occasion of sin" for girls who happen to behold their hairy legs, but, rather because I consider modesty to be a broader concept.  But these things are long enough where modesty is not a consideration really.

    With regard to dignity, that's a little slippery.  If I am a farmer and wear grungy clothes or overalls, or if I just wear jeans in general, one might make the case that thy are "undignified".  But just as it would be perfectly appropriate to compromise dignity a bit so that a man can do farm work without wearing his Sunday best, so too I don't think there's any problem with wearing these knee-length shorts in order to run.  I do not consider this level of "indignity" to be sinful ... given the context.  Now, if these boys were to dress like this at, say, the grocery store, I would consider that slovenly and undignified, and perhaps a very slight sin with regard to being sloppy, but I'm not seeing any offense against modesty or against masculinity (these shorts do not appear at all feminine).  Dressing like that for Mass, of course, would certainly be unacceptable.  Now, those 1970s short shorts were both extremely immodest and effeminate ... to the point that the men wearing them could easily be taken for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs.  But I'm not seeing that with these either.
    Your only focus on everything seems to be a whether it is sinful or not. Like I said: 

    Quote
    By the way, by your only WHY, immodesty, you would not have a leg to stand on with regard to women wearing loose fitting pants. Bp. Williamson also taught that women can't wear pants, and it was not only because of immodesty like for instance tight form fitting jeans, it was because pants are the clothing on men. In this case of the shorts, there is a similar WHY they should not be worn by men,  it is because they are the clothes of children, my #2 above.






    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #84 on: January 21, 2020, 11:52:33 AM »
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  • Your only focus on everything seems to be a whether it is sinful or not. Like I said:
    Your mind seems to only work from a Moral Theology book, and when a discussion involves subjects not needing moral theology, but experience and common sense, you are like a fish out of water.

    An example was my thread on chaperoning and not letting daughters go out on "dates"by themselves or live by themselves. It is no sin to let ones daughters go out on "dates" by themselves or to let them live in another town by themselves, so by your "standard" it is OK, however, experience, tradition, and common sense says it is putting ones daughter into grave danger to the body, mind and soul. I could site many other examples.

    There's more to living a Catholic life than is explained in a Moral Theology book.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #85 on: January 21, 2020, 11:52:52 AM »
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  • If that were true, they would be wearing jogging pants.

    Not sure ... depends on the type of running they're doing I would imagine.  I could see the pant legs below the knee constantly flapping against ones lower legs to be a problem and a distraction on a vigorous run.  Of if you're on a cross-country type run, going up and down hills and perhaps running into things on the terrain, I could see longer pants catching on stuff or even getting stepped on by the runner.  I have little problem with the outfit.  What I'm more concerned about is the constant emphasis on the worldly aspects being so emphasized in the neo-SSPX.  It's like promoting the seminary by showing mostly pictures of seminarians playing hockey and soccer, etc. ... and de-emphasizing the studies and the spiritual formation.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #86 on: January 21, 2020, 12:06:12 PM »
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  • Not sure ... depends on the type of running they're doing I would imagine.  I could see the pant legs below the knee constantly flapping against ones lower legs to be a problem and a distraction on a vigorous run.  Of if you're on a cross-country type run, going up and down hills and perhaps running into things on the terrain, I could see longer pants catching on stuff or even getting stepped on by the runner.  I have little problem with the outfit.  What I'm more concerned about is the constant emphasis on the worldly aspects being so emphasized in the neo-SSPX.  It's like promoting the seminary by showing mostly pictures of seminarians playing hockey and soccer, etc. ... and de-emphasizing the studies and the spiritual formation.
    ::)

    Please.

    It’s called a jogging suit because it is designed to be jogged in...like at a jogathon.

    But this strained argument you make contradicts your previous claim that the wearing of shorts here was not comfort related.

    But if flapping pant legs really were the concern, these boys would be squarely condemned as sissies and wussies, per the article quoted above.

    I ran track and field in high school, and other sports which required roadwork (running), and certainly never found my sweats to be a constraint.

    Only a complete momma’s boy or pansy would argue they can’t do a jogathon in sweats.

    Hell, the priest pictured with them is doing it in cassock, and he’s not too worried about fαɢɢօty flapping feelings on his lower leg!!

    Laxislaus is back!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ca246

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #87 on: January 21, 2020, 12:31:43 PM »
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  • I get the uncanonical altar and cringe-worthy motorcycle design, but I really don't understand what is wrong with short pants. How are you supposed to go around in the rain? Would you rather that we all wore skirts? Around the world, countless people are in heresy and faithlessness, on the way to hell... but there are people wasting their time and energy about this?! Lederhosen have been used since when...And where is the papal condemnation?! Please, I beg that someone show me where in the Bible, or in any ecuмenical or regional council, or in any papal bull or encyclical, or in the compilations of Denziger, Ott, Tanquery, etc... does it say that men can't wear short pants (long enough to reach the knee), and I will take immediate action!

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #88 on: January 21, 2020, 12:44:46 PM »
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  • Quote
    Terrible argument, which runs squarely against the spirit of mortification, penance, nobility, modesty, masculinity, etc:

    If it isn’t sinful, let it slide.

    That’s not the Catholic way, and implies a disregard for the pursuit of perfection.

    I am speaking of modern "comforts" that are part of our daily life, and which every previous generation in the history of mankind has not had.  For instance, a bread toaster.  Or the nice bed mattresses we all have.  Or the internet.
    .
    All of these are luxuries that previous generations could only dream of, yet they are so intertwined with our lives that we consider them commonplace.  So it is imperfect to sleep on a mattress?  Or use the internet to get an answer instead of opening up an encyclopedia and waiting the extra 5 minutes to find out (that's assuming you even own an encyclopedia)?  Or is it luxurious and anti-Catholic to toast your bread in the morning, when 1,000s of generations ate bread untoasted?
    .
    Just because something is a comfort does not mean it must be discarded to be perfect.  We're not Jansenists and anti-material.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pics from the Latest Rorate Coeli Report
    « Reply #89 on: January 21, 2020, 12:52:09 PM »
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  • Quote
    I can argue that using a power drill to drive in a few dozen screws makes me a "sissy"
    Exactly.  And computerized car engines, remote controls of all kinds, automatic garage doors, computers of all types, instant coffee and let's not forget the steam engine.
    .
    Quote
    Lederhosen have been used since when...And where is the papal condemnation?!
    Exactly.  And Scottish kilts too.  Or what about the 1700-1800s when guys wore shorts to their knees, with knee-high white socks?  (i.e. Benjamin Franklin times)