Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: PhxGroup on March 26, 2016, 10:25:46 PM
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We are a group of adults who have been members of Our Lady of Sorrows for many years some of us are founders who have been here from the very beginning in the late 70s
It should be of no surprise to anyone that we are unhappy with the new church ,
The fact of the matter is everyone we have talked to has complaints ,some have just a few
like the horrible sound system that makes following the Mass or hearing the sermon nearly impossible or the permanent suspension of traditional devotions and groups like the Holy Name Society or closing of the book store.
Others , Many who are established members have just left due to number of complaints being so many
All you have to do is take a trip one Sunday to the other traditional masses around the valley and you will see for yourself how many former OLOS parishioners attend
Ask the kitchen staff they will tell you Sunday doughnut and coffee sales are down by half for this time of year
Ask the Ushers they will tell you collections are down and complaints are growing ( be careful which usher you ask though some are more loyal to Fr. Riccomini then they are the church or the faith and they will report you )
The church is dying as a community . Older established members are already going and gone
soon it will be families with children, the only reason most of them stayed at all was the school
but as other traditional parishes grow with our former members they too will be able to open schools
We were going to list some of those complaints ,ones we heard over & over but this our first post is already long enough we will though list a few
The sound system
The closing of the book store
The lack of one single statue in the church
The disbanding of the Holy Name Society
The suspension of blessing religious articles
The ending of most evening masses
we could go on and on as there are a lot more but as we said this post is long enough
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At the vigil last night I was shocked at how empty the chapel was. There were maybe 3 dozen people in a building that can easily fit 300. Where is everyone? On any given Sunday you would see at least a 100. At Christmas that place was standing room only.
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I'm curious how the sound system makes it "impossible to follow a sermon".
Generally speaking, a PA system broadcasts the priest's voice louder, so people in the back can hear it better.
I'm not trying to be a heckler, as I'm completely sympathetic to your viewpoint. But as a former head of the "Audio department" of a seminary, and as a chapel coordinator who not too long ago bought a PA system along with a wireless "lavalier" microphone for the priest to use during sermons, I'm curious what your complaints are about the sound system.
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These seem like logistics complaints and disagreements. Are they related to the Resistance in some way?
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We are a group of adults who have been members of Our Lady of Sorrows for many years some of us are founders who have been here from the very beginning in the late 70s
It should be of no surprise to anyone that we are unhappy with the new church ,
The fact of the matter is everyone we have talked to has complaints ,some have just a few
like the horrible sound system that makes following the Mass or hearing the sermon nearly impossible or the permanent suspension of traditional devotions and groups like the Holy Name Society or closing of the book store.
Others , Many who are established members have just left due to number of complaints being so many
All you have to do is take a trip one Sunday to the other traditional masses around the valley and you will see for yourself how many former OLOS parishioners attend
Ask the kitchen staff they will tell you Sunday doughnut and coffee sales are down by half for this time of year
Ask the Ushers they will tell you collections are down and complaints are growing ( be careful which usher you ask though some are more loyal to Fr. Riccomini then they are the church or the faith and they will report you )
The church is dying as a community . Older established members are already going and gone
soon it will be families with children, the only reason most of them stayed at all was the school
but as other traditional parishes grow with our former members they too will be able to open schools
We were going to list some of those complaints ,ones we heard over & over but this our first post is already long enough we will though list a few
The sound system
The closing of the book store
The lack of one single statue in the church
The disbanding of the Holy Name Society
The suspension of blessing religious articles
The ending of most evening masses
we could go on and on as there are a lot more but as we said this post is long enough
I can't speak to all of these but I do know the bookstore is open but has been moved to a temporary location until the basement of the church has been completed. I talked to the bookstore manager about this less than one week ago. She went into detail about how they have re-opened using one of the offices for the priests in the (I believe) parish hall.
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We are a group of adults who have been members of Our Lady of Sorrows for many years some of us are founders who have been here from the very beginning in the late 70s
It should be of no surprise to anyone that we are unhappy with the new church ,
The fact of the matter is everyone we have talked to has complaints ,some have just a few
like the horrible sound system that makes following the Mass or hearing the sermon nearly impossible or the permanent suspension of traditional devotions and groups like the Holy Name Society or closing of the book store.
Others , Many who are established members have just left due to number of complaints being so many
All you have to do is take a trip one Sunday to the other traditional masses around the valley and you will see for yourself how many former OLOS parishioners attend
Ask the kitchen staff they will tell you Sunday doughnut and coffee sales are down by half for this time of year
Ask the Ushers they will tell you collections are down and complaints are growing ( be careful which usher you ask though some are more loyal to Fr. Riccomini then they are the church or the faith and they will report you )
The church is dying as a community . Older established members are already going and gone
soon it will be families with children, the only reason most of them stayed at all was the school
but as other traditional parishes grow with our former members they too will be able to open schools
We were going to list some of those complaints ,ones we heard over & over but this our first post is already long enough we will though list a few
The sound system
The closing of the book store
The lack of one single statue in the church
The disbanding of the Holy Name Society
The suspension of blessing religious articles
The ending of most evening masses
we could go on and on as there are a lot more but as we said this post is long enough
There are legitimate gripes, but inaccuracy detracts from the legitimate gripes.
The book store is open in Boyle Hall, smaller space, but approximately the same holdings. It is promised more space when the new church basement is built out.
There is a statue of Our Blessed Mother above the baldacchino and a Pietà at the Western entry. While I would appreciate statues at the transepts, it is evident that the parish, host of numerous priestly and lay retreats, has a church designed with side altars instead of devotional crypts to accommodate the needs of priest retreatants to celebrate their daily Mass.
While the smaller bookstore has no drop-off basket for articles to be blessed without asking a priest personally, I have heard no policy that religious articles will not be blessed. Who announced such a "policy"?
Agreed that Masses and Confessions are fewer in number, but Our Lady of Sorrows' priests are now serving distant locations. I would like the schedule to accommodate my preferences, but I cannot in good conscience imagine that my preferences for more Masses should trump the needs of those who would otherwise have no traditional sacraments at all.
At the vigil last night I was shocked at how empty the chapel was. There were maybe 3 dozen people in a building that can easily fit 300. Where is everyone? On any given Sunday you would see at least a 100. At Christmas that place was standing room only.
Really? Did you leave before Mass to rush and post your criticism? The Mass of the Paschal Vigil was PACKED in a church built for about 800 seated.
Meanwhile, our family began assisting at the 10am Mass because the 8am Mass has been so packed every Sunday. From the 300 capacity Church where it was hard to seat the family it has been déjà vu finding it hard to seat the family in a church built for 800.
I see numerous unfamiliar faces, entire families of unfamiliar faces.
All of this is good evidence that the new Church is attracting new families and the parish is growing.
That said, the sound "system," a single electrostatic speaker at the apse, is atrocious, but I think the more serious problem is the airy-fairy content of the sermons. I miss solid sermons that help us face the world, the flesh, and the devil in our daily lives.
My biggest local gripe? The recent insistence that young children not play on the lawn near the new statue of Our Lady. Who in their right mind could imagine the Mother of God frowning upon young children joyous at play? What better a place for children to play than under the gaze of the Blessed Virgin Mary?
I stand by my other criticisms of the Zionist-submissive cabal and its incompetent and dishonest dealings with the occupied Vatican and heavy-handed approach in suppressing even respectful criticism, but I cannot countenance a grossly erroneous assessment of a "dying community."
Since Fr. Riccomini has been gone for months, how are the ushers to report to him? Sorry to say so, but that comment and the gross inaccuracy of the criticisms make me question the motives of the critics.
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At the vigil last night I was shocked at how empty the chapel was. There were maybe 3 dozen people in a building that can easily fit 300. Where is everyone? On any given Sunday you would see at least a 100. At Christmas that place was standing room only.
A lot of people travel for Easter and so are at other chapels closer to their families. Some attend the morning Mass because they have children and family get togethers.
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At the vigil last night I was shocked at how empty the chapel was. There were maybe 3 dozen people in a building that can easily fit 300. Where is everyone? On any given Sunday you would see at least a 100. At Christmas that place was standing room only.
A lot of people travel for Easter and so are at other chapels closer to their families. Some attend the morning Mass because they have children and family get togethers.
Plain and simply the report is inaccurate.
The Mass of the Paschal Vigil was PACKED.
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At the vigil last night I was shocked at how empty the chapel was. There were maybe 3 dozen people in a building that can easily fit 300. Where is everyone? On any given Sunday you would see at least a 100. At Christmas that place was standing room only.
A lot of people travel for Easter and so are at other chapels closer to their families. Some attend the morning Mass because they have children and family get togethers.
Plain and simply the report is inaccurate.
The Mass of the Paschal Vigil was PACKED.
I could be wrong, but I believe TRM was referring to St. Benedict's, the SSPX chapel in Louisville, KY, not the Phoenix chapel.
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At the vigil last night I was shocked at how empty the chapel was. There were maybe 3 dozen people in a building that can easily fit 300. Where is everyone? On any given Sunday you would see at least a 100. At Christmas that place was standing room only.
Really? Did you leave before Mass to rush and post your criticism?
I should have been more explicit. I wasn't referring to Phoenix but rather my local chapel. It was just a general statement about how Easter didn't seem to draw the crowds as Christmas did.
I was there at 10:15 pm prior to the blessing of the New Fire and I left at 1:30 am after Mass was over. I probably should have stayed later but the priest and everyone else left so I figured I should too.
Sorry to have offended you Mark. My apologies. Have a blessed Eastertide.
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At the vigil last night I was shocked at how empty the chapel was. There were maybe 3 dozen people in a building that can easily fit 300. Where is everyone? On any given Sunday you would see at least a 100. At Christmas that place was standing room only.
A lot of people travel for Easter and so are at other chapels closer to their families. Some attend the morning Mass because they have children and family get togethers.
I didn't think about that. Probably so and there was a Mass this morning. It was my first time there so I was surprised.
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The book store is open in Boyle Hall, smaller space, but approximately the same holdings. It is promised more space when the new church basement is built out.
I cannot countenance a grossly erroneous assessment of a "dying community."
Since Fr. Riccomini has been gone for months, how are the ushers to report to him? Sorry to say so, but that comment and the gross inaccuracy of the criticisms make me question the motives of the critics.
You are right the book store is now open in Boyle Hall
A mere shadow of its former size and inventory and like everything that is asked for the answer is "When the basement is completed"
you want statues ? you want a permanent book store bigger then a walk in closet ? You want stained glass windows ? you want a sound system so you can hear the Mass ?
Well help pay for the basement first ...Blackmail plain and simple And how do we know this ?We have heard that very thing given as an answer
You are also right about Fr.R being gone for months
The orders to report complainers was given well before he left, as a matter of fact The original order was to find members of the resistance and report them .They did such a good job it was expanded to include complainers
I have been present as an usher took Fr. Wegner, District Superior aside to report someone.(as we are sure you know Fr.Wegner is there almost every Sunday) This same usher has shooed away parishioners who were asking the Brothers questions about Fr.R A member of our group was standing near by as the Brothers thanked this usher for his action
We can go into each complaint just as deeply If you wish but take our word for it the church does not come off looking good
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At the vigil last night I was shocked at how empty the chapel was. There were maybe 3 dozen people in a building that can easily fit 300. Where is everyone? On any given Sunday you would see at least a 100. At Christmas that place was standing room only.
Really? Did you leave before Mass to rush and post your criticism?
I should have been more explicit. I wasn't referring to Phoenix but rather my local chapel. It was just a general statement about how Easter didn't seem to draw the crowds as Christmas did.
I was there at 10:15 pm prior to the blessing of the New Fire and I left at 1:30 am after Mass was over. I probably should have stayed later but the priest and everyone else left so I figured I should too.
Sorry to have offended you Mark. My apologies. Have a blessed Eastertide.
Thanks for the clarification.
A happy and blessed Easter to you also.
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The book store is open in Boyle Hall, smaller space, but approximately the same holdings. It is promised more space when the new church basement is built out.
I cannot countenance a grossly erroneous assessment of a "dying community."
Since Fr. Riccomini has been gone for months, how are the ushers to report to him? Sorry to say so, but that comment and the gross inaccuracy of the criticisms make me question the motives of the critics.
You are right the book store is now open in Boyle Hall
A mere shadow of its former size and inventory and like everything that is asked for the answer is "When the basement is completed"
you want statues ? you want a permanent book store bigger then a walk in closet ? You want stained glass windows ? you want a sound system so you can hear the Mass ?
Well help pay for the basement first ...Blackmail plain and simple And how do we know this ?We have heard that very thing given as an answer
You are also right about Fr.R being gone for months
The orders to report complainers was given well before he left, as a matter of fact The original order was to find members of the resistance and report them .They did such a good job it was expanded to include complainers
I have been present as an usher took Fr. Wegner, District Superior aside to report someone.(as we are sure you know Fr.Wegner is there almost every Sunday) This same usher has shooed away parishioners who were asking the Brothers questions about Fr.R A member of our group was standing near by as the Brothers thanked this usher for his action
We can go into each complaint just as deeply If you wish but take our word for it the church does not come off looking good
As I said, I agree that there are legitimate problems, dare I say, big problems. Like you, I cited the heavy-handed suppression of even polite questions or disagreements. Another big problem is Fr. Beck's school diktats, the absence of Catholic plays. Perhaps it is unique to me, but I think the sermons are a big problem both in delivery and content. A monotone drone of a barely audible sermon on an "airy-fairy" topic is no help to me.
The departure of Fr. Riccomini was done in a fashion that would raise questions for anyone with a working brain. Tired??? Stressed??? When has even a "tired" and "stressed" pastor slipped away without the usual fête? Then there are the extensions—a month turned into a few months and that turned into never. The timing coincided with the Post Falls debacle. What gives?
With the Rothschild-Gutman endowment, I can only wonder why the big squeeze is put on parishioners to pay off the $2.5M sans basement.
Anyway, despite all the problems I do see the parish growing.
Can you hint which usher ratted on the critic?
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The book store is open in Boyle Hall, smaller space, but approximately the same holdings. It is promised more space when the new church basement is built out.
I cannot countenance a grossly erroneous assessment of a "dying community."
Since Fr. Riccomini has been gone for months, how are the ushers to report to him? Sorry to say so, but that comment and the gross inaccuracy of the criticisms make me question the motives of the critics.
You are right the book store is now open in Boyle Hall
A mere shadow of its former size and inventory and like everything that is asked for the answer is "When the basement is completed"
you want statues ? you want a permanent book store bigger then a walk in closet ? You want stained glass windows ? you want a sound system so you can hear the Mass ?
Well help pay for the basement first ...Blackmail plain and simple And how do we know this ?We have heard that very thing given as an answer
You are also right about Fr.R being gone for months
The orders to report complainers was given well before he left, as a matter of fact The original order was to find members of the resistance and report them .They did such a good job it was expanded to include complainers
I have been present as an usher took Fr. Wegner, District Superior aside to report someone.(as we are sure you know Fr.Wegner is there almost every Sunday) This same usher has shooed away parishioners who were asking the Brothers questions about Fr.R A member of our group was standing near by as the Brothers thanked this usher for his action
We can go into each complaint just as deeply If you wish but take our word for it the church does not come off looking good
How is it blackmail to ask for payment of a debt that is owed? Isn't Phoenix 2 million in the hole or something like that?
Have you offered to help out with anything?
Have you asked why there are less evening Masses?
Have you asked the brothers why you can't ask about the parish priest?
Has anyone asked about why there aren't any devotions?
Has anyone stopped you from re-starting the devotions?
Please let us know-thanks!
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Has anyone asked about why there aren't any devotions!
They do the 1st Saturday devotions to the 7 Sorrows of Our Blessed Virgin Mother.
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mark:
The timing coincided with the Post Falls debacle. What gives?
This "Post Falls debacle" must either be described on some other thread, or it is something that I missed. Would you please explain, Mark? I know of another "debacle," or scandal which has emerge in Post Falls; but I certainly have not revealed it yet. Was waiting for the right time. Maybe the scandal of which we are aware coincides with the "debacle" you reference.
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There is a statue of Our Blessed Mother above the baldacchino and a Pietà at the Western entry.
Plus angel statues on the 4 corners of the baldacchino.
Regarding the basement, it is cost-prohibitive to build it up now, as they would have to install a $200,000+ elevator to make it meet building codes.
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As I said, I agree that there are legitimate problems, dare I say, big problems. Like you, I cited the heavy-handed suppression of even polite questions or disagreements. Another big problem is Fr. Beck's school diktats, the absence of Catholic plays. Perhaps it is unique to me, but I think the sermons are a big problem both in delivery and content. A monotone drone of a barely audible sermon on an "airy-fairy" topic is no help to me.
The departure of Fr. Riccomini was done in a fashion that would raise questions for anyone with a working brain. Tired??? Stressed??? When has even a "tired" and "stressed" pastor slipped away without the usual fête? Then there are the extensions—a month turned into a few months and that turned into never. The timing coincided with the Post Falls debacle. What gives?
With the Rothschild-Gutman endowment, I can only wonder why the big squeeze is put on parishioners to pay off the $2.5M sans basement.
Anyway, despite all the problems I do see the parish growing.
Can you hint which usher ratted on the critic?
Your right about the departure of Fr. Riccomini no one was even afforded the opportunity to say good-bye but maybe it is a good thing . a lot of the complaints listed fall on his shoulders
Those secular school plays
Disbanding the Holy Name Society
Ending daily Mass for the school students
Ending the blessing of religious articles after Mass the 3rd Sunday of the month
Suppressing devotions
Watered down sermons
None of these things were happening with Fr. Burfitt or Pastors before him .
To be honest If we could get some answers to a few simple questions maybe these concerns would not fester into complaints
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They do the 1st Saturday devotions to the 7 Sorrows of Our Blessed Virgin Mother.
Yes a watered down version of the entire 7 Sorrows Rosary that was said
between Masses in the old church . This particular devotion was ended about the same time Fr. R. disbanded the "Black Scapular Confraternity"
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How is it blackmail to ask for payment of a debt that is owed? Isn't Phoenix 2 million in the hole or something like that? ...
Excuse me?
Understand the money available to the SSPX: http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
Parishioners at large were never consulted about the prudence of $2.5 Million in debt. The project and the financing was presented as fait accompli.
We are obligated to love even an abusive parent, but we are not obligated to suffer abuse.
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As I said, I agree that there are legitimate problems, dare I say, big problems. Like you, I cited the heavy-handed suppression of even polite questions or disagreements. Another big problem is Fr. Beck's school diktats, the absence of Catholic plays. Perhaps it is unique to me, but I think the sermons are a big problem both in delivery and content. A monotone drone of a barely audible sermon on an "airy-fairy" topic is no help to me.
The departure of Fr. Riccomini was done in a fashion that would raise questions for anyone with a working brain. Tired??? Stressed??? When has even a "tired" and "stressed" pastor slipped away without the usual fête? Then there are the extensions—a month turned into a few months and that turned into never. The timing coincided with the Post Falls debacle. What gives?
With the Rothschild-Gutman endowment, I can only wonder why the big squeeze is put on parishioners to pay off the $2.5M sans basement.
Anyway, despite all the problems I do see the parish growing.
Can you hint which usher ratted on the critic?
Your right about the departure of Fr. Riccomini no one was even afforded the opportunity to say good-bye but maybe it is a good thing . a lot of the complaints listed fall on his shoulders
Those secular school plays
Disbanding the Holy Name Society
Ending daily Mass for the school students
Ending the blessing of religious articles after Mass the 3rd Sunday of the month
Suppressing devotions
Watered down sermons
None of these things were happening with Fr. Burfitt or Pastors before him .
To be honest If we could get some answers to a few simple questions maybe these concerns would not fester into complaints
Fr. Burfitt is an exceptional priest- I am sure the parish misses him.
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How is it blackmail to ask for payment of a debt that is owed? Isn't Phoenix 2 million in the hole or something like that? ...
Excuse me?
Understand the money available to the SSPX: http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
Parishioners at large were never consulted about the prudence of $2.5 Million in debt. The project and the financing was presented as fait accompli.
We are obligated to love even an abusive parent, but we are not obligated to suffer abuse.
How long have you been attending this parish?
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How is it blackmail to ask for payment of a debt that is owed? Isn't Phoenix 2 million in the hole or something like that? ...
Excuse me?
Understand the money available to the SSPX: http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
Parishioners at large were never consulted about the prudence of $2.5 Million in debt. The project and the financing was presented as fait accompli.
We are obligated to love even an abusive parent, but we are not obligated to suffer abuse.
How long have you been attending this parish?
What is your real name and home phone number?
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JMJ
Hello to all. I have been reading CathInfo for some time. This is my first ever post on a forum. I beg your patience!
Last year, we moved to the Phoenix area from another SSPX Mass center. It has been difficult since September: we were one Sunday away from permanently cutting ties with the SSPX. And then there was Ambrose. For the sake of maintaining a semblance of stability for our children, we have continued – painfully – with the SSPX.
I have no previous history with OLS so cannot comment about the past of the parish. However, I believe I can say that it suffers as so many other parishes suffer. It suffers from the creeping liberalism and modernism that affects people everywhere. And I do mean everywhere – it is not just in the SSPX. The empty, “airy-fairy” sermons are definitely everywhere in the SSPX. It is one reason why the faithful are slowly becoming faithless. They are not hearing what they need to hear to keep their faith alive. Yes, it can be done without talking about “The Crisis”, but it is a lot harder if no one is fighting for anything anymore.
Specifically regarding OLS, I have observed several things that are troubling:
• The All-Saints party did not really seem to be a celebration of the saints. We arrived a bit late and so missed what must have been an extremely short presentation of saints. Many children did not dress as saints. Of the ones who did it appeared to be only the younger children. At the former location, the parish party (separate from the school’s observance) was very much focused on the children’s presentations. We all gathered in the hall and enjoyed Father guessing who each child represented. At OLS, the event is outside and was basically a free-for-all with bounce houses and volleyball. My oldest especially felt out of place as no one her age was in costume. The older girls spent their time on the courts playing volleyball with the boys, and the brothers!
• We are very disappointed in the school fundraiser masquerading as an event in honor of St. Joseph. It is hard to believe that an adults only night out with appetizers, wine, and beer on an Ember Day in Lent is an appropriate expression of the traditional St. Joseph’s Table.
• The now bulletin contains this message:
NOTA BENE:
No food or drink (anything to be chewed or swallowed)
is allowed anywhere at anytime in the church including the cry room - nursing babies excepted. Further, never leave any trash whatsoever anywhere in the church.
As such an offense is wholly unfitting for the House of God; anyone noticing another doing such should admonish them per the dictates of St. Paul, and report them to one of the priests assigned to OLS for educational purposes.
Terribilis est Locus!
I do agree in principal, but are we really supposed to report an offender to one of the priests for correction? Shouldn’t we be more concerned about spiritual formation? Modesty in dress, action, intention? Fighting the errors in the world? Not texting while in the confession line? Yes, I have seen that!
• There is also this:
Registration cards are available at the entrance of the church for the parish records. This entitles you in canon law to receive the sacraments by the priests of the SSPX. Please complete to keep your information up to date and place in the collection basket.
Is that correct? What canon is referred to here?
• Lastly, I would agree that the parish is growing since the opening of the new building. There are many many people who are clearly not traditional. Their manner of dressing is a giveaway (although I would say that OLS is very lax overall in it’s dress code.) New people are in attendance each week. Are they interested in tradition? Do they return? Do they think it is the Novus Ordo with a Mass in Latin?
Thank you for being patience with me in this my first post.
In Jesus, Risen as He said.
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How is it blackmail to ask for payment of a debt that is owed? Isn't Phoenix 2 million in the hole or something like that? ...
Excuse me?
Understand the money available to the SSPX: http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
Parishioners at large were never consulted about the prudence of $2.5 Million in debt. The project and the financing was presented as fait accompli.
We are obligated to love even an abusive parent, but we are not obligated to suffer abuse.
How long have you been attending this parish?
What is your real name and home phone number?
I am not sure why you would need to know that.... I was simply trying to understand your history with the parish but you are hostile so we will leave it at that.
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wanting to know names ,numbers and ones history with the parish
.......maybe we are paranoid but that sounds like the very questions that certain ushers ask before you reported . Are you a usher or spouse of an usher at OLoS Aleah ?
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The empty, “airy-fairy” sermons are definitely everywhere in the SSPX.
Everywhere, really? Is it fair to make a blanket statement that "airy-fairy" sermons are definitely everywhere in the SSPX"? That is your subjective opinion. I have never heard an "empty, airy-fairy sermon" in our chapel, quite the opposite.
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The empty, “airy-fairy” sermons are definitely everywhere in the SSPX.
Everywhere, really? Is it fair to make a blanket statement that "airy-fairy" sermons are definitely everywhere in the SSPX"? That is your subjective opinion. I have never heard an "empty, airy-fairy sermon" in our chapel, quite the opposite.
Before we got our new priest, I would say that justG's "empty, “airy-fairy” sermons" perfectly described to a "T" the sermons for the previous 3 years or so at the SSPX chapel I go to, thankfully lately, Fr.'s sermons are substantially and overwhelmingly way, way better.
So for now at least justG, I can personally attest to one SSPX chapel that has some pretty good sermons.
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wanting to know names ,numbers and ones history with the parish
.......maybe we are paranoid but that sounds like the very questions that certain ushers ask before you reported . Are you a usher or spouse of an usher at OLoS Aleah ?
The only thing I asked was how long Mark had attended the parish so I could understood his history and the changes that have occurred during his time.
If you and Mark want to be that paranoid- then have fun.
Sheesh.
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JMJ
Very interesting responses to my post. Thank you.
Allow me to clarify just a bit:
I used the term “airy fairy” based on an earlier response from someone in this topic. In my opinion, “airy fairy” would mean sermons that, while good in themselves, do not address “The Crisis”, the evils we face, or how to go about the business of Restoring All Things in Christ. Yes, there are plenty of good sermons that address our own personal spiritual lives, but we are more than just our own personal selves. We are also members of the Church Militant. We are in a battle for souls – World War Three as Archbishop Lefebvre said. God bless you if you have a priest that is actively and directly addressing the Crisis and how to fight against the evils we face! You are indeed blessed.
Additionally, I apologize for offending anyone by use of the word “everyone.” Perhaps that is too broad. “Many” people are affected by and infected with liberalism and modernism these days. If not you personally, then I would imagine those in your family or friends or acquaintances in the church. Again, you are blessed if the creeping liberalism and modernism has not touched you or your parish.
Regarding my comments on the All Saints event: of course, religious recreate! I did not say they should not. However, there must be better times and places for completely secular activities. A parish event that is to honor the saints should be edifying for all and not used as an excuse to just play. Other than a few children in costume there was not much to indicate the event was Catholic. Also, I would think my point is made overall if traditional Catholics believe it is acceptable for girls to play a “harmless volleyball game” against boys and the brothers. We are indeed living in very different worlds with very different perspectives.
I might say the same about the St. Joseph Table. At our former parish, both St. Patrick and St. Joseph are honored on a Sunday with raffles and fun things and a beautiful St. Joseph Table adorned with donated baked goods. Because it is on Sunday, everyone may participate. Perhaps I am guilty of comparing too much to the other parish, but they do some things very very well and I found myself disappointed at OLS. I am sorry if that hurts the feelings of anyone at OLS.
God bless you.
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It is hard to believe that an adults only night out with appetizers, wine, and beer on an Ember Day in Lent is an appropriate expression of the traditional St. Joseph’s Table.
(From the time modern beer was invented in the middle ages) Benedictine monks drank beer every day during Lent. Alcohol is not part of the lenten fast, if that's what you're implying.
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No food or drink (anything to be chewed or swallowed) is allowed anywhere at anytime in the church
Why is eating in church a good idea? We have similar rules at our chapel, except it's even more stringent - it's minimized to 2 areas only. If people were allowed to eat/drink everywhere, (and leave their trash) the few who actually clean up would never have time to rest!
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wanting to know names ,numbers and ones history with the parish
.......maybe we are paranoid but that sounds like the very questions that certain ushers ask before you reported . Are you a usher or spouse of an usher at OLoS Aleah ?
The only thing I asked was how long Mark had attended the parish so I could understood his history and the changes that have occurred during his time.
If you and Mark want to be that paranoid- then have fun.
Sheesh.
That paranoid ?..let me tell you a story
about 9 or 10 months ago as a few members of our group were sitting in the hall another group of younger couples all with kids were sitting as a group off to the side . They were all discussing this and that as people do, sitting with them was an usher ( not the same one as we mentioned before but an usher none the same ) later when we were leaving I noticed that same usher talking to Fr. R and Br. Louis outside the priory. Br. was writing in his little book he carries
Within 6 months every single one of those parishioners were gone That is 2 families and 2 older gentlemen ....all gone and yes it just so happens they were all either sede' or resistance
we love our church and we know this reign will pass so we don't want to be banned from the property .Call that paranoid if you wish but
better safe then sorry
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wanting to know names ,numbers and ones history with the parish
.......maybe we are paranoid but that sounds like the very questions that certain ushers ask before you reported . Are you a usher or spouse of an usher at OLoS Aleah ?
The only thing I asked was how long Mark had attended the parish so I could understood his history and the changes that have occurred during his time.
If you and Mark want to be that paranoid- then have fun.
Sheesh.
That paranoid ?..let me tell you a story
about 9 or 10 months ago as a few members of our group were sitting in the hall another group of younger couples all with kids were sitting as a group off to the side . They were all discussing this and that as people do, sitting with them was an usher ( not the same one as we mentioned before but an usher none the same ) later when we were leaving I noticed that same usher talking to Fr. R and Br. Louis outside the priory. Br. was writing in his little book he carries
Within 6 months every single one of those parishioners were gone That is 2 families and 2 older gentlemen ....all gone and yes it just so happens they were all either sede' or resistance
we love our church and we know this reign will pass so we don't want to be banned from the property .Call that paranoid if you wish but
better safe then sorry
My original question remains- did you inquire about anything that you have stated in the original post? Have you spoken to the priests, brothers, or the usher?
No need to be paranoid with me- I am just inquiring to understand the situation. This is the same thing I did when someone posted incorrect information about my parish. I asked whether or not they went directly to the source.
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wanting to know names ,numbers and ones history with the parish
.......maybe we are paranoid but that sounds like the very questions that certain ushers ask before you reported . Are you a usher or spouse of an usher at OLoS Aleah ?
The only thing I asked was how long Mark had attended the parish so I could understood his history and the changes that have occurred during his time.
If you and Mark want to be that paranoid- then have fun.
Sheesh.
That paranoid ?..let me tell you a story
about 9 or 10 months ago as a few members of our group were sitting in the hall another group of younger couples all with kids were sitting as a group off to the side . They were all discussing this and that as people do, sitting with them was an usher ( not the same one as we mentioned before but an usher none the same ) later when we were leaving I noticed that same usher talking to Fr. R and Br. Louis outside the priory. Br. was writing in his little book he carries
Within 6 months every single one of those parishioners were gone That is 2 families and 2 older gentlemen ....all gone and yes it just so happens they were all either sede' or resistance
we love our church and we know this reign will pass so we don't want to be banned from the property .Call that paranoid if you wish but
better safe then sorry
My original question remains- did you inquire about anything that you have stated in the original post? Have you spoken to the priests, brothers, or the usher?
No need to be paranoid with me- I am just inquiring to understand the situation. This is the same thing I did when someone posted incorrect information about my parish. I asked whether or not they went directly to the source.
Also, when you spoke with the two families and the two gentlemen about why they no longer attended Our Lady Of Sorrows- what was the response?
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...No need to be paranoid with me...
Here's a question for you—What tribe perfected the tactic of treating political and religious opposition as mental illness?
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The empty, “airy-fairy” sermons are definitely everywhere in the SSPX.
Everywhere, really? Is it fair to make a blanket statement that "airy-fairy" sermons are definitely everywhere in the SSPX"? That is your subjective opinion. I have never heard an "empty, airy-fairy sermon" in our chapel, quite the opposite.
Fr. Wegener's two Christmastime sermons, where he went over two Summa articles on the fittingness of the incarnation, were very good. It's good to see Thomistic priests.
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Fr. Wegener's two Christmastime sermons, where he went over two Summa articles on the fittingness of the incarnation, were very good. It's good to see Thomistic priests.
III q. 1 a. 1 (http://dhspriory.org/thomas/summa/TP/TP001.html#TPQ1A1THEP1) & 2 (http://dhspriory.org/thomas/summa/TP/TP001.html#TPQ1A2THEP1)
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Aleah
How is it blackmail to ask for payment of a debt that is owed? Isn't Phoenix 2 million in the hole or something like that?
Have you offered to help out with anything?
Have you asked why there are less evening Masses?
Have you asked the brothers why you can't ask about the parish priest?
Has anyone asked about why there aren't any devotions?
Has anyone stopped you from re-starting the devotions?
Please let us know-thanks!
It is blackmail in that we are expected to pay the money we pledged (which we do )if we want to use the basement or have any statuary or have a real bookstore but we were not consulted on any of the very expensive changes to the plans for the new church nor have we been told why the stained glass windows are not in even though they were all pledged for separate from the building fund.
Yes we help out
Next 3 questions - I thought we made it clear questions of that nature are not welcome or wise at this time at OLoS
Next question- you can not in any traditional chapel just start up a devotion or reinstate one that has been suppressed
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I recall the one person asking Mark for what I consider private information, and this would set wrong for me also. I know what some people complain about and some of it is valid. What I did not like is people making observations that are just not true or unfounded , or just quite overstated. What I cannot figure out is that all parishes will have people come and go. Just like we switch jobs or move to a new house. I have been a member of the parish for over 35 years and I know a lot of you have not. The temp bookstore is a lot larger than a walk in closet ( again an untrue remark in most cases).They brought in 58 new titles several weeks ago so, when I hear someone say that it is the same old thing, then I wonder where they get their information. Instead of the complaining why do not more of you get involved and offer to do volunteer work. We beg people to help of clean the church and yet few come forward. for those of you that are not willing to work within your parish, than I suggest you move on. For those that want to make it work then do not be afraid to do so and step up to the plate. So much to do at this parish and so few come forward to give their time.
You talk about reduction of devotions, here is a sad point; every 12th of the month a 6:00p.m. rosary is said for an ending of all abortions. So very very few ever attend. Our Lady of the Americas is waiting their for your prayers in this most serious of all offences and no one comes. Yet it is published in the bulletin, just not every time.
It is not a perfect parish, nor do we have perfect priests, brothers, or ushers; only heaven is perfect!
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We find it interesting that you would bring up the "12th of the month rosary" as it proves our point
Has it ever been properly promoted from the pulpit during announcements ?
Even though the devotion is conducted every month at the same time does it's announcement have a permanent placement in the bulletin ?
Do the religious attend thereby leading by example until the devotion is established ?
The answer to all of these we are guessing is a resounding NO!
This is their plan you see, to suppress it through designed apathy
As for the book store Have you been to other parishes in the SSPX family ? Churches a quarter the size of ours have huge book stores selling everything a Traditional Catholic would want or need Our church has on the other hand a book store so small there is not even room for the cash register
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You talk about reduction of devotions, here is a sad point; every 12th of the month a 6:00p.m. rosary is said for an ending of all abortions. So very very few ever attend. Our Lady of the Americas is waiting their for your prayers in this most serious of all offences and no one comes. Yet it is published in the bulletin, just not every time.
It is not a perfect parish, nor do we have perfect priests, brothers, or ushers; only heaven is perfect!
Congratulation on having your devotion mentioned at the late Mass by Fr. Scott though in truth it would have been nice to see a little more enthusiasm about its importance
Let us see if now you can get a permanent place in the bulletin
This is one of the reasons we decided to began posting on Cathinfo , to bring to light the many problems at OLoS . It is most pleasing to see our work coming to fruition
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This Sunday was very interesting
We found out Fr. R. is gone for good
We found out there will be no sign in front or anywhere on church property
We found out the basement will not be completed until the debt is paid
We found out the interior of the church will not be completed until the
basement is
This is wrong OLoS took our pledges under false pretenses ,changing the plans and increasing the debt . We are now left with a half built modernist spectacle and pledges we are constantly told are holy obligations to pay.
It is no wonder the mass attendance numbers and contributions are down
none are so blind as those who won't see
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This Sunday was very interesting
We found out Fr. R. is gone for good
We found out there will be no sign in front or anywhere on church property
We found out the basement will not be completed until the debt is paid
We found out the interior of the church will not be completed until the
basement is
That wasn't at the 10 AM, was it?
Also, do you know what happened to the statues from the old church? I'm wondering why those aren't in the new church.
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This Sunday was very interesting
We found out Fr. R. is gone for good
We found out there will be no sign in front or anywhere on church property
We found out the basement will not be completed until the debt is paid
We found out the interior of the church will not be completed until the
basement is
That wasn't at the 10 AM, was it?
Also, do you know what happened to the statues from the old church? I'm wondering why those aren't in the new church.
No the information we are relaying is reliable and comes from sources who are "in the know" We would not repeat idle gossip or theories
The old statues are for the most part gone . Fr.R had some sent to another church some were given away & some were disposed of
Fr. R. did not want any of the statues from the old church cluttering the new church
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Instead of the complaining why do not more of you get involved and offer to do volunteer work. We beg people to help of clean the church and yet few come forward. for those of you that are not willing to work within your parish, than I suggest you move on.
Just some observations as an outsider person who has not ever set foot at OLOS:
This entire thread's discussion on both sides sounds like another SSPX chapel, I know well, and one I do attend frequently. What Lunatik states above is exactly describes what someone "on the inside" would say, not because of the plea for help, but for the the last part, which betrays a despotic lack of charity on the part of the writer.
"If you are not willing to work "within the parish then move on".
This attitude of "If you are not willing to follow orders without questions, then we do not want you", is Menzigen talking, it cetainly is not Fr. Ricomini, maybe this is why he was removed, he could not continue to follow orders without question, he was fed up with being the front lines lieutenant that had to give these despotic orders? Maybe my theory explains his strange departure:
The departure of Fr. Riccomini was done in a fashion that would raise questions for anyone with a working brain. Tired??? Stressed??? When has even a "tired" and "stressed" pastor slipped away without the usual fête? Then there are the extensions—a month turned into a few months and that turned into never.
Again, this sounds like Menzigen is giving the orders and Fr. Riccomini was just the face following the orders, till he could no longer go against his conscience. Having known Fr. Riccomini, it does not sound like him to:
-Give orders to report complainers
-the heavy-handed suppression of even polite questions or disagreements.
-the sermons are a big problem both in delivery and content. A monotone drone of a barely audible sermon on an "airy-fairy" topic
-The lack of one single statue in the church
-The disbanding of the Holy Name Society
-The suspension of blessing religious articles
-The ending of most evening masses
-not consulted on any of the very expensive changes to the plans
There are many other similarities with my chapel between the OLOS happenings as described by both sides, many more. For this reason I think this is all coming from the top, a handful of men at Menzigen (maybe just 2 or 3 men), and their comrades, most just following orders though they don't necessarily agree, a few others (petty despots, life long insignificant men now given power over others.) liking the power it gives them. The political model for this is totalitarian communism, it is not of the children of light.
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The old statues are for the most part gone . Fr.R had some sent to another church some were given away & some were disposed of
Fr. R. did not want any of the statues from the old church cluttering the new church
This is patently false. I saw the old church's Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Sorrows, and St. Joseph statues inside the basement entryway on the NE side of the church yesterday.
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This Sunday was very interesting
We found out Fr. R. is gone for good
We found out there will be no sign in front or anywhere on church property
We found out the basement will not be completed until the debt is paid
We found out the interior of the church will not be completed until the
basement is
That wasn't at the 10 AM, was it?
Also, do you know what happened to the statues from the old church? I'm wondering why those aren't in the new church.
No the information we are relaying is reliable and comes from sources who are "in the know" We would not repeat idle gossip or theories
Why are you called "PhxGroup"? I thought you attended the Phoenix SSPX parish. If you don't, then why do you start a thread complaining about it?
From Fr. Wegner's announcements this past Sunday at the 10 AM, he said nothing, that I recall, about Fr. Riccomini. He mentioned that much of the loan contributed to Phoenix's new church came from another SSPX parish in Kentucky, I think it was, and that contributing to paying of the debt serves a twofold purpose: satisfying justice and helping the Kentucky SSPX church's school.
Also, the reason for the loan in the first place is because they wanted to build the church sooner than later, as the city's zoning regulations might've prevented it if they delayed.
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In my opinion, it sounds like a New Order take over. That would be very shocking, wouldn't it. The peoples money is a church, that won't belong to them. That is an opinion.
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This Sunday was very interesting
We found out Fr. R. is gone for good
We found out there will be no sign in front or anywhere on church property
We found out the basement will not be completed until the debt is paid
We found out the interior of the church will not be completed until the
basement is
That wasn't at the 10 AM, was it?
Also, do you know what happened to the statues from the old church? I'm wondering why those aren't in the new church.
No the information we are relaying is reliable and comes from sources who are "in the know" We would not repeat idle gossip or theories
Why are you called "PhxGroup"? I thought you attended the Phoenix SSPX parish. If you don't, then why do you start a thread complaining about it?
From Fr. Wegner's announcements this past Sunday at the 10 AM, he said nothing, that I recall, about Fr. Riccomini. He mentioned that much of the loan contributed to Phoenix's new church came from another SSPX parish in Kentucky, I think it was, and that contributing to paying of the debt serves a twofold purpose: satisfying justice and helping the Kentucky SSPX church's school.
Also, the reason for the loan in the first place is because they wanted to build the church sooner than later, as the city's zoning regulations might've prevented it if they delayed.
You know very well the answers to your own questions . You are attempting to bait us into a argument
Interesting how you were not so against our posting when you were asking about the statues . Don't blame the messenger we are merely passing on reliable information
If you think anything we have posted is contrary to the truth or scandalous gossip Try asking your statue question next Sunday. Ask a Brother or better yet test your theory and ask an usher
don't say we didn't warn you Geremia
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Pardon me, PhxG, if this question has already been asked, or the information already provided. But I would like to ask it again, if such is the case:
What individual, individuals, or corporate entity holds title to the new chapel in Phoenix? Or, whose name is on the mortgage?
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I didn't hear anyone fall out of their pew with a loud noise when Fr. W's sermon admonished parishioners about "the justice" of paying interest on a loan from a Catholic pastor?
That's right—the US District Superior thinks it is justice for Catholics to charge and pay each other interest!!!
One can only wonder how many seminary hours are spent teaching about the INJUSTICE of taking interest on a simple loan of money (hint: it is the mortal sin of USURY judaism DOT is/usury.html).
Maybe the class on usury was superseded by a class on the super-dogma of the h0Ɩ0h0αx to which every bishop must kneel... and a seminar on how to ignore parental warnings about an active pederast set amongst the children in the parish and summer camps because the pederasty wasn't happening "in the church or at the camps." You know, off-campus pederasty and psychotic attempts to "circuмcise" oneself in the seminary are not reasons to be excluded from being a counsellor to Catholic children.
Test questions: Where is one of the priests who ignored the parental warnings? What is his title in his new location? Is there a grammar school and a high school there?
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Pardon me, PhxG, if this question has already been asked, or the information already provided. But I would like to ask it again, if such is the case:
What individual, individuals, or corporate entity holds title to the new chapel in Phoenix? Or, whose name is on the mortgage?
To the best of our knowledge The SSPX holds title to OLoS
We after some deliberation this morning believe that may public knowledge.
If our endeavor to find out for sure leads to our initial answer being wrong we will post it
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PhX:
To the best of our knowledge The SSPX holds title to OLoS
Thanks. Can't one or several of you go to the County Recorder and dig up a copy of the deed? It would be interesting to have the copy of any such docuмent, together with the signatories. Has this effort been made in the past?
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PhX: To the best of our knowledge The SSPX holds title to OLoS
Thanks. Can't one or several of you go to the County Recorder and dig up a copy of the deed? It would be interesting to have the copy of any such docuмent, together with the signatories. Has this effort been made in the past?
The county assessor says "SOCIETY OF SAINT PIUS X PHOENIX AZ INC" owns it.
Here's the URL of the record:
mcassessor DOT maricopa DOT gov/?s=114-17-007B
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I didn't hear anyone fall out of their pew with a loud noise when Fr. W's sermon admonished parishioners about "the justice" of paying interest on a loan from a Catholic pastor?
Fr. Wegner did not say the Catholic pastor is charging the Phoenix parish interest. That would indeed be usurious.
There are two loans: one from the Catholic pastor and another from a usurer to cover the rest of the costs of the church. Paying interest on the loan from the usurer* makes it easier to repay the Catholic pastor and support his school while at the same time paying off the Phoenix parish's debt. This is what Fr. Wegner meant by saying that almsgiving in this case is both an act of charity and an act of justice.
*(It is lawful to borrow from a usurer: dhspriory DOT org/thomas/summa/SS/SS078.html#SSQ78A4THEP1 )
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Fr. Wegener's two Christmastime sermons, where he went over two Summa articles on the fittingness of the incarnation, were very good. It's good to see Thomistic priests.
Is this Fr Jurgen Wegner who produced the rebranding firm? Does anyone know if he's Swiss, or is he German?
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PhxG, this may be of interest to you, I don't know. But if you go to the URL Recorder.Maricopa.gov it may turn up some information of interest to a few of you. Just scroll down to "Business Name" and type in 'Society Saint Pius X, Phoenix, Arizona.' you come up with a slew of docuмents relating to the OLS property. You also see names like Lazlo Kovacs, Arnaud Rostand, John Fullerton, Peter Scott appearing on certain docuмents.
On other sites I've seen docs that seem to lead to Platte, MO and from there directly to Menzingen. This guy Kovacs, an architect, apparently, seems to have represented St. Pius X, inc. on a couple of occasions. Just thought I'd pass this along. You may have already seen all this stuff. But if not, maybe you OLS folks down there can make more sense of the material than I can at a distance. There are also, on several docs, several names of women with whom you might be acquainted.
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PhxG, this may be of interest to you, I don't know. But if you go to the URL Recorder.Maricopa.gov it may turn up some information of interest to a few of you. Just scroll down to "Business Name" and type in 'Society Saint Pius X, Phoenix, Arizona.' you come up with a slew of docuмents relating to the OLS property. You also see names like Lazlo Kovacs, Arnaud Rostand, John Fullerton, Peter Scott appearing on certain docuмents.
On other sites I've seen docs that seem to lead to Platte, MO and from there directly to Menzingen. This guy Kovacs, an architect, apparently, seems to have represented St. Pius X, inc. on a couple of occasions. Just thought I'd pass this along. You may have already seen all this stuff. But if not, maybe you OLS folks down there can make more sense of the material than I can at a distance. There are also, on several docs, several names of women with whom you might be acquainted.
I cited the direct link:The county assessor says "SOCIETY OF SAINT PIUS X PHOENIX AZ INC" owns it.
Here's the URL of the record:
mcassessor DOT maricopa DOT gov/?s=114-17-007B
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I didn't hear anyone fall out of their pew with a loud noise when Fr. W's sermon admonished parishioners about "the justice" of paying interest on a loan from a Catholic pastor?
Fr. Wegner did not say the Catholic pastor is charging the Phoenix parish interest. That would indeed be usurious.
There are two loans: one from the Catholic pastor and another from a usurer to cover the rest of the costs of the church. Paying interest on the loan from the usurer* makes it easier to repay the Catholic pastor and support his school while at the same time paying off the Phoenix parish's debt. This is what Fr. Wegner meant by saying that almsgiving in this case is both an act of charity and an act of justice.
*(It is lawful to borrow from a usurer: dhspriory DOT org/thomas/summa/SS/SS078.html#SSQ78A4THEP1 )
Fr. W gave two sermons last Sunday. Perhaps he was clear in one and fumbled the other. Despite his accent and the awful sound system, I heard him say there was "justice" in paying interest to the Catholic pastor. As I said, I will allow that he may have fumbled his English....
Does that also excuse ignoring parental warnings about a pederast who also tried to "circuмcise" himself? Does that also excuse placing one of the malfeasant priests in yet another position of authority at a different parish that has both a grammar school and a high school?
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the awful sound system
The sound system has been working well this week. I haven't heard any feedback.
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Feedback has been part of the problem, but I believe the greater problem is the poor quality of the electrostatic speaker in a building that reflects the sound, producing phase noise. Hopefully the people who never admit mistakes will consult a sound engineer before they do any expensive interventions.
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The county assessor says "SOCIETY OF SAINT PIUS X PHOENIX AZ INC" owns it.
But who owns the Society of Saint Pius X Pheonix AZ, Inc.? I just thought I'd ask.
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TKGS:
But who owns the Society of Saint Pius X Pheonix AZ, Inc.? I just thought I'd ask.
Or put another way: Who are the principals in the SSPX, Phoenix, AZ, Inc? That's what I was trying to get at. I think you can trace 'ownership' all the way back to Menzingen. At the very least one can trace it to Platte, MO and Fr. Rostand.
That's why, for those who are interested, going to the docuмents found at the Maricopa Recorder's Office might be more useful and informative than trying to get info from the Maricopa Assessor. The County Recorder provides photostat copies of most, if not all of the docuмents, pursuant to OLS, from around 2001 forward. But I don't have a dog in this fight, so it is of no real concern to me.
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TKGS: But who owns the Society of Saint Pius X Pheonix AZ, Inc.? I just thought I'd ask.
Or put another way: Who are the principals in the SSPX, Phoenix, AZ, Inc? That's what I was trying to get at. I think you can trace 'ownership' all the way back to Menzingen. At the very least one can trace it to Platte, MO and Fr. Rostand.
That's why, for those who are interested, going to the docuмents found at the Maricopa Recorder's Office might be more useful and informative than trying to get info from the Maricopa Assessor. The County Recorder provides photostat copies of most, if not all of the docuмents, pursuant to OLS, from around 2001 forward. But I don't have a dog in this fight, so it is of no real concern to me.
Here's the deed:
Name(s)
KOVACS LASZLO
SOCIETY OF ST PIUS THE X
Recording Date/Time
8/7/2002 11:34:32 AM
Docuмent Code(s)
Q/CL DEED
Recording Number
20020805079
URL: recorder.maricopa.gov/recdocdata/getrecdatadetail.aspx?rec=20020805079&suf=
I've also attached a PDF scan of it taken from the above URL. The grantor field says:
"THE SOCIETY OF ST. PIUS THE X BY LASZLO KOVACS"
Laszlo Kovacs is the design architect.
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But who owns the Society of Saint Pius X Pheonix AZ, Inc.?
According to this: nonprofitfacts.com/AZ/Society-Of-Saint-Plus-X-Phoenix-Arizona-Inc-Our-Lady-Of-Sorrows-Church-Retre.html#affiliatedList_a
"Society Of Saint Plus X Phoenix Arizona Inc, Our Lady Of Sorrows Church & Retrea in Phoenix, Arizona (AZ)" is subordinate to the central organization "Society Of Saint Pius X South-West District Inc" (Platte City, MO).
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I heard him say there was "justice" in paying interest to the Catholic pastor.
Also, a donation is not a mutuum loan, so usury isn't possible in this case anyways.
Even if it is a mutuum loan between the Phoenix parish and the lending Catholic pastor, Fr. W. requesting "interest" (really it'd be an "extrinsic title") is not usury. As Vix Pervenit says:By these remarks, however, We do not deny that at times together with the loan contract certain other titles—which are not at all intrinsic to the contract—may run parallel with it. From these other titles, entirely just and legitimate reasons arise to demand something over and above the amount due on the contract.
Franciscans were known to give to the poor, to help them get back on their feet. Sometimes the recipients of these donations would pay the Franciscans back more than they "lent" them. The Franciscans thus made some "interest" off their donations. Is that usury?
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I heard him say there was "justice" in paying interest to the Catholic pastor.
Also, a donation is not a mutuum loan, so usury isn't possible in this case anyways.
Even if it is a mutuum loan between the Phoenix parish and the lending Catholic pastor, Fr. W. requesting "interest" (really it'd be an "extrinsic title") is not usury. As Vix Pervenit says:By these remarks, however, We do not deny that at times together with the loan contract certain other titles—which are not at all intrinsic to the contract—may run parallel with it. From these other titles, entirely just and legitimate reasons arise to demand something over and above the amount due on the contract.
Franciscans were known to give to the poor, to help them get back on their feet. Sometimes the recipients of these donations would pay the Franciscans back more than they "lent" them. The Franciscans thus made some "interest" off their donations. Is that usury?
For the third time, I specifically heard him insist on the "justice" of paying "interest" on a "loan" (of money) from the Catholic pastor.
"Donation"? The parishioners donate. Fr. W, as others before him, explicitly characterized the "loan," not "donation," from the Catholic pastor. Why muddy the waters with your gratuitous mention that a donation involves no usury?
Among the possibilities.... maybe he flubbed his English at one or both of his sermons... or maybe you flubbed your hearing.
"Extrinsic title"? Sure, the apportioned cost of salaries to staff, the rent on space to store items at a mons pietas, the apportioned actual expense of making a loan, et al. are genuine "other titles." "Time value of money," "lost investment opportunities," and INTEREST are NOT legitimate "other titles" and the Council of Nicaea §17 explicitly condemned "contrivances" to take interest under another name.
Summa, Second Part of the Second Part, Question 78, Article 2, Pt. II-II, Reply Obj. 5: “He who lends money transfers the ownership of the money to the borrower. Hence the borrower holds the money at his own risk and is bound to pay it back: wherefore the lender must not exact more.”
Vix pervenit, “...(Sec 3), I. That species of sin which is called usury, and which has its proper seat and place in a contract of lending, consists in this: that someone, from the loan itself, which of its very nature demands that only as much be returned as was received, which is more to be returned to him than was received, and therefore contends that some profit beyond the principal, by reason of the lending, is due to him. Therefore, all profit of this sort, which surpasses the principal, is unlawful and is usurious.
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Another interesting Sunday at OLoS
We found out Fr. Mark Stafki is returning to OLoS as the new Prior
We found out the donut/coffee sales are down another 20%
We found out the drop in attendance is primarily due to the debt
Now how do we know these things ?
One of our members over heard the coffee count and the talking that went along with it after late Mass. This brings the grand total of the drop to around 60-70%
one of our members volunteers her time helping to clean the church. She overheard the office or individuals in the office complaining about the number of complaints coming in about the heavy handed debt collection
-And here we thought the parishioners were upset at going to Mass in a half built modernist spectacle ,turns out they are just as mad about having to pay for such a thing
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I have been with OLOS for many years and can comment on several things mentioned here:
- There is one statue from the old Church (the Pieta, which was on the Epistle-side wall of the old Church) that is now in the vestibule of the new Church. I haven't seen the Our Lady of Sorrows statue, or the St. Joseph one, which are presumably stored somewhere.
- There is an overall change in tone of the way the priests are talking to the faithful on Sundays, from the pulpit, and it is not a good thing. I have never heard SSPX priests talk to parishioners this way. It is rather ugly. It all started the Sunday after the new Church was consecrated on Sep. 13th, when Fr. Riccomini chastised everyone with what apparent "slobs" we all are, in his words, "leaving trash" all over the Church. I don't think our people are slobs, but my impression was that perhaps +Fellay, or Wegner, or someone higher up had complained to Riccomini and told him to say these things. I could be wrong.
- Yes, the bulletins have recently contain several "nasty notes" about reporting your fellow parishioners to the priests, etc. Again, the tone is just unacceptable.
- Wegner has been around a lot. A lot. In fact, he recently gave an entire sermon about how some woman in another parish who had a child in the parish school expected him to solve a conflict between her child and another child. He said he had better things to do, bigger problems to solve. Pardon me, but I have better things to do on Sunday than listen to my priest complain about his job and/or his parishioners.
- Wegner took to the pulpit last Sunday (though he was NOT the one celebrating Mass) to chastise the parish for ten minutes that we were not giving enough money on our debt to the other priest, Fr. McMahon at La Sallette. He told us to think of the debt as our "rent" and that we only "rent this parish" for our sacraments, and that we needed to budget for our debt the way we set aside money for our rent.
- The "airy-fairy" sermons are real. Not one fighting priest amongst the many faces passing through this place. They are all neutered. Not one mentions the errors of the present Church. Which is ironic considering Bergoglio is doing or saying the craziest things virtually daily, and not a peep of protest from the priests. They MUST have been ordered by +Fellay, or God knows who, to NOT speak against what is happening in the Church. It is not a SOFTENING of the SSPX's opposition to modernism, it is the now total ABSENCE of the SSPX's opposition to modernism. +Abp. Lefebvre must be rolling in his grave.
- Fr. McDonald announced from the pulpit Sunday (and in the bulletin) that the community Rosary is now relegated to the (tiny, but lovely) Retreat Chapel. I have no idea why they would do such a thing. So, we paid a lot of money for this new Church, but can't use it for the Rosary? What on earth?
- There was a debacle with the St. Joseph's auction. They were tracking who was attending and who wasn't, who was donating and who wasn't. It was emailed out publicly, thereby shaming those on the "list". Why they are keeping track I cannot imagine, because it is wrong. It should be NOBODY'S business if you attend, or donate, or not. A lot of people must have complained, because they were forced to quickly issue an "apology" saying it was a "mistake" email. However, what was clear to all who read it is that them keeping track of who donated or not, is no mistake.
- Yes, Fr. Crane arrived here immediately after the arrest of Kevin Sloniker. He is the acting prior and in charge of finances. He rarely gives Sunday Mass. Hard to believe how no one has raised the issue of what his involvement in the Sloniker scandal was.
- In my opinion, there is something spiritually not right with this new Church since it opened. I know some feel it, others may not agree, but there is an overall "empty" feeling there, and a "coldness" there. Even though I know that God is present on the altar, it feels as though God has withdrawn His blessing on this place.
I miss the old OLOS because things have changed here, and not for the better.
I think many of these things are driving people away, hence, the drop in money donations, etc.
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Nice post mw2016.
You just described the political morphology of a typical novus ordo takeover of a parish.
Your faithful have riled-up Father Wegner, and his superiors. Your parishioners don't trust them and they don't trust you, so now they are out to kick butt.
It will never be the same. Time to find an independent Tridentine Mass priest and get the Sacraments without the assistance of the xSPX.
They have shown you their colors and they are Novus ordo, in long cassocks.
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- In my opinion, there is something spiritually not right with this new Church since it opened. I know some feel it, others may not agree, but there is an overall "empty" feeling there, and a "coldness" there. Even though I know that God is present on the altar, it feels as though God has withdrawn His blessing on this place.
Our family stopped in at the new chapel the SSPX built in Cincinnati shortly after it was consecrated, and we felt the same spiritual "coldness". It could have been a trick of the architecture and lack of stained glass windows, but nevertheless it felt empty, too.
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I have been with OLOS for many years and can comment on several things mentioned here:
- There is one statue from the old Church (the Pieta, which was on the Epistle-side wall of the old Church) that is now in the vestibule of the new Church. I haven't seen the Our Lady of Sorrows statue, or the St. Joseph one, which are presumably stored somewhere.
- There is an overall change in tone of the way the priests are talking to the faithful on Sundays, from the pulpit, and it is not a good thing. I have never heard SSPX priests talk to parishioners this way. It is rather ugly. It all started the Sunday after the new Church was consecrated on Sep. 13th, when Fr. Riccomini chastised everyone with what apparent "slobs" we all are, in his words, "leaving trash" all over the Church. I don't think our people are slobs, but my impression was that perhaps +Fellay, or Wegner, or someone higher up had complained to Riccomini and told him to say these things. I could be wrong.
- Yes, the bulletins have recently contain several "nasty notes" about reporting your fellow parishioners to the priests, etc. Again, the tone is just unacceptable.
- Wegner has been around a lot. A lot. In fact, he recently gave an entire sermon about how some woman in another parish who had a child in the parish school expected him to solve a conflict between her child and another child. He said he had better things to do, bigger problems to solve. Pardon me, but I have better things to do on Sunday than listen to my priest complain about his job and/or his parishioners.
- Wegner took to the pulpit last Sunday (though he was NOT the one celebrating Mass) to chastise the parish for ten minutes that we were not giving enough money on our debt to the other priest, Fr. McMahon at La Sallette. He told us to think of the debt as our "rent" and that we only "rent this parish" for our sacraments, and that we needed to budget for our debt the way we set aside money for our rent.
- The "airy-fairy" sermons are real. Not one fighting priest amongst the many faces passing through this place. They are all neutered. Not one mentions the errors of the present Church. Which is ironic considering Bergoglio is doing or saying the craziest things virtually daily, and not a peep of protest from the priests. They MUST have been ordered by +Fellay, or God knows who, to NOT speak against what is happening in the Church. It is not a SOFTENING of the SSPX's opposition to modernism, it is the now total ABSENCE of the SSPX's opposition to modernism. +Abp. Lefebvre must be rolling in his grave.
- Fr. McDonald announced from the pulpit Sunday (and in the bulletin) that the community Rosary is now relegated to the (tiny, but lovely) Retreat Chapel. I have no idea why they would do such a thing. So, we paid a lot of money for this new Church, but can't use it for the Rosary? What on earth?
- There was a debacle with the St. Joseph's auction. They were tracking who was attending and who wasn't, who was donating and who wasn't. It was emailed out publicly, thereby shaming those on the "list". Why they are keeping track I cannot imagine, because it is wrong. It should be NOBODY'S business if you attend, or donate, or not. A lot of people must have complained, because they were forced to quickly issue an "apology" saying it was a "mistake" email. However, what was clear to all who read it is that them keeping track of who donated or not, is no mistake.
- Yes, Fr. Crane arrived here immediately after the arrest of Kevin Sloniker. He is the acting prior and in charge of finances. He rarely gives Sunday Mass. Hard to believe how no one has raised the issue of what his involvement in the Sloniker scandal was.
- In my opinion, there is something spiritually not right with this new Church since it opened. I know some feel it, others may not agree, but there is an overall "empty" feeling there, and a "coldness" there. Even though I know that God is present on the altar, it feels as though God has withdrawn His blessing on this place.
I miss the old OLOS because things have changed here, and not for the better.
I think many of these things are driving people away, hence, the drop in money donations, etc.
I said before and I'll repeat it again, this is EXACTLY word for word what happened in the SSPX chapel I attend. It by no means is Catholic behavior, gone is charity towards all men, these are totalitarian communistic tactics. I've come to realize that it is what it is, and it is not going to change. The spirit and charity of Abp. Lefevbre is dead and gone, and the SSPX's new leaders modus operandi is what is described above in every detail.
He told us to think of the debt as our "rent" and that we only "rent this parish" for our sacraments,
I have serious doubts about the validity of the new ordination rites and the new consecration of bishops ceremony, therefore of course, VERY serous doubts about the sacraments. I now ONLY expect one thing from my SSPX chapel, valid sacraments, and I thank God for providing them to me. Everything else I have to provide for myself and those that God places in my path. We truly are now down to just "renting the sacraments".
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Even though I know that God is present on the altar, it feels as though God has withdrawn His blessing on this place.
I believe that God withdrew His blessings upon the SSPX when they began to grant annulments. The SSPX had no authority to grant them, and the modern annulments (a euphemism for Catholic divorce) ARE what killed all grace to the conciliar bishops who allowed them.
God established the SSPX strictly as a haven for Catholics and nothing else. It is not a builder of monuments (building grand churches and $125,000,000 seminaries), they are not the pope (granting annulments).
Only ask God for valid sacraments, that is our only haven today, and God has not withdrawn that blessing from the SSPX priests ordained by Abp. Lefevbre and the other SSPX bishops.
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Even though I know that God is present on the altar, it feels as though God has withdrawn His blessing on this place.
I believe that God withdrew His blessings upon the SSPX when they began to grant annulments. The SSPX had no authority to grant them, and the modern annulments (a euphemism for Catholic divorce) ARE what killed all grace to the conciliar bishops who allowed them.
God established the SSPX strictly as a haven for Catholics and nothing else. It is not a builder of monuments (building grand churches and $125,000,000 seminaries), they are not the pope (granting annulments).
Only ask God for valid sacraments, that is our only haven today, and God has not withdrawn that blessing from the SSPX priests ordained by Abp. Lefevbre and the other SSPX bishops.
Does this sound like a classic case of ex opera operato - ex opera operantis. Is there grace coming from here. Also, very much sounds like a lack of charity!! Please discuss?
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- In my opinion, there is something spiritually not right with this new Church since it opened. I know some feel it, others may not agree, but there is an overall "empty" feeling there, and a "coldness" there. Even though I know that God is present on the altar, it feels as though God has withdrawn His blessing on this place.
Our family stopped in at the new chapel the SSPX built in Cincinnati shortly after it was consecrated, and we felt the same spiritual "coldness". It could have been a trick of the architecture and lack of stained glass windows, but nevertheless it felt empty, too.
Interestingly there is nothing of this coldness in some very humble chapels in the Resistance. I've heard people describe the opposite.
Bigger doesn't equal automatically better. And the building is just a building -- it's what goes in the building that's important. What the priests believe, what they preach about, what they fight for (or fail to fight for). That is the important part.
Yes, validity is the most important. But validity of the Mass isn't everything! If you have any options, it behooves you to choose a better one, or HELP MAKE a better option, with everything in your power.
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Even though I know that God is present on the altar, it feels as though God has withdrawn His blessing on this place.
I believe that God withdrew His blessings upon the SSPX when they began to grant annulments. The SSPX had no authority to grant them, and the modern annulments (a euphemism for Catholic divorce) ARE what killed all grace to the conciliar bishops who allowed them.
God established the SSPX strictly as a haven for Catholics and nothing else. It is not a builder of monuments (building grand churches and $125,000,000 seminaries), they are not the pope (granting annulments).
Only ask God for valid sacraments, that is our only haven today, and God has not withdrawn that blessing from the SSPX priests ordained by Abp. Lefevbre and the other SSPX bishops.
Does this sound like a classic case of ex opera operato - ex opera operantis. Is there grace coming from here. Also, very much sounds like a lack of charity!! Please discuss?
I'll be glad to discuss as soon as you explain what you wrote. Where is "here", and what exactly "very much sounds like a lack of charity"? It "sounds" to me like you are misinterpreting what I wrote.
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I agree, Tradhican. I don't know what Croagh is trying to say.
The only lack of charity going on in Phoenix is from the priests to the faithful. They are turning the place into East Germany and trying to make a Stasi force, I guess. It's completely bizarre.
It's as though the priests view the faithful as some sort of disgraceful nuisance they are forced to deal with so they can have their new palace.
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My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave? In my opinion they will go to the FSSP Mission. Remember, 2 years ago in June, 1 priest murdered with 11 gun shots. The number of shots were never disclosed in public newspapers/news, only from mom in the "Four Marks" newspaper. Then the other priest was beaten so bad, he could not stay on and you get 2 new FSSP clergy. Hm?
And now the problems with OLOS. Hm? Does this sound like a plan, a scheme? Hm? But all is very sad indeed!
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My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave?
Perhaps to Queen of the Holy Rosary (http://www.cmri.org/latin-mass-directory/phoenix-queen-of-holy-rosary-parish.shtml) with Fr. Cordova, CMRI.
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The number of shots were never disclosed in public newspapers/news, only from mom in the "Four Marks" newspaper.
I didn't know that was reported in Four Marks. Four Marks is a sedevecantist paper.
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It is blackmail in that we are expected to pay the money we pledged (which we do )if we want to use the basement or have any statuary or have a real bookstore but we were not consulted on any of the very expensive changes to the plans for the new church nor have we been told why the stained glass windows are not in even though they were all pledged for separate from the building fund.
Next question- you can not in any traditional chapel just start up a devotion or reinstate one that has been suppressed
When did the windows pledge happen and what was the price?
I have some info for you on that topic.
Did you take Fr. McDonald's Rosary "suppression announcement" on Sunday to be referring to the Rosary said before Masses on Sundays? I know someone else who thought he was referring to the 6pm one.
I remember dear old John Marshall (RIP) doing it before Mass back in the day.
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...No need to be paranoid with me...
Here's a question for you—What tribe perfected the tactic of treating political and religious opposition as mental illness?
Good post!
*raises hand*
Teacher, pick me! I know the answer, yes I do!
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This Sunday was very interesting
We found out Fr. R. is gone for good
We found out there will be no sign in front or anywhere on church property
We found out the basement will not be completed until the debt is paid
We found out the interior of the church will not be completed until the
basement is
That wasn't at the 10 AM, was it?
Also, do you know what happened to the statues from the old church? I'm wondering why those aren't in the new church.
No the information we are relaying is reliable and comes from sources who are "in the know" We would not repeat idle gossip or theories
The old statues are for the most part gone . Fr.R had some sent to another church some were given away & some were disposed of
Fr. R. did not want any of the statues from the old church cluttering the new church.
That sounds very wasteful. Why would anyone dispose statues??
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If Father Wegner was on the scene, you can bet newChurch "re-branding" was the theme.
While I'm sorry to hear about the demise of you chapel, the xSPX's attempt to demolish the faithful's traditional Catholic spirit will blow-up in their face.
This story should be reported far and wide as an example of their true modernist spirit .
Start calling a spade... a spade. Father Wegner is a two-faced con man.
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My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave?
Perhaps to Queen of the Holy Rosary (http://www.cmri.org/latin-mass-directory/phoenix-queen-of-holy-rosary-parish.shtml) with Fr. Cordova, CMRI.
Maybe no one else caught that but we did
So you are implying if parishioners leave they are leaving because they are sede? Cant be any other reason HUH?
Your position on sedevacantist is well known so your post can only be described a sarcasm
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My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave?
There are many places in the valley besides Mater Misericordiae FSSP
that by the way is full of people that left OLoS
Our Lady of the Sun Catholic Church
Our Lady of Quito Fr.Finnigan
not to mention at least 3 diocese locations . We are not recommending any one of these. For the time being we are going to stay and fight but we see many have gone to these other locations
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That sounds very wasteful. Why would anyone dispose statues??
According to Fr. R they had to go . So if they could not be sold or transferred to another church or sold to King Richards ( http://www.kingrichards.com/ )
or given to loyal parishioners they were disposed of , they had to go
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My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave?
There are many places in the valley besides Mater Misericordiae FSSP
that by the way is full of people that left OLoS
Our Lady of the Sun Catholic Church
Our Lady of Quito Fr.Finnigan
not to mention at least 3 diocese locations . We are not recommending any one of these. For the time being we are going to stay and fight but we see many have gone to these other locations
Interesting, the majority of the people leaving because of the SSPX change are going to the FSSP and the Diocese indult mass. This shows that the complaints have nothing to do with the Resistance. The people are leaving because they are being treated badly, treated like servants.
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My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave?
Perhaps to Queen of the Holy Rosary (http://www.cmri.org/latin-mass-directory/phoenix-queen-of-holy-rosary-parish.shtml) with Fr. Cordova, CMRI.
I am not aware of anyone heading to a sede parish. I'm not sede either, so I would never go to Bp. Sanborn's place or others.
I aware of one family who went to the FSSP, and the reason why, which relates to some of the "changes" taking place.
I'm not surprised there are others there. I have no issue with the FSSP in particular, although I am not a fan of Fr. Remski.
I do wonder what he will do with his dislike of the SSPX when the deal happens shortly...haha.
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Interesting, the majority of the people leaving because of the SSPX change are going to the FSSP and the Diocese indult mass. This shows that the complaints have nothing to do with the Resistance. The people are leaving because they are being treated badly, treated like servants.
I do wonder about this.
Fr. Pfeiffer is the Resistance priest here, and since some of the OLOS crowd may not view him favorably, I wonder if that may be why they don't end up at the Resistance.
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It is also to be mentioned that Fr. Wegner (in his money chastisement) said that SSPX parishes pay a "tax" to the SSPX that goes into a legal fund to defend lawsuits against them.
Perhaps PhxGroup can expand on that a bit.
Lawsuits??
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This one was way before my time, but it came up when I googled SSPX lawsuits...
http://www.leagle.com/decision/19841482586FSupp896_11315/BOLDUC%20v.%20BAILEY
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My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave?
There are many places in the valley besides Mater Misericordiae FSSP
that by the way is full of people that left OLoS
Our Lady of the Sun Catholic Church
Our Lady of Quito Fr.Finnigan
not to mention at least 3 diocese locations . We are not recommending any one of these. For the time being we are going to stay and fight but we see many have gone to these other locations
Interesting, the majority of the people leaving because of the SSPX change are going to the FSSP and the Diocese indult mass. This shows that the complaints have nothing to do with the Resistance. The people are leaving because they are being treated badly, treated like servants.
In my case, because I have doubts about the new ordination rite and the new formula for the consecration of bishops (to be blunt, I have doubts as to whether they are priests), the FSSP and the Diocese Indult mass is not an option. Since the people leaving have no such doubts, I wonder why they chose to go to the SSPX chapel in the first place, instead of just going to the FSSP and indult? The FSSP and Indult mass communities do not need money, they have the diocese buildings and "old money" from 100's of years of donations. Why would they go through all the expense and trouble of building OLOS? Is it just because of the school?
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In my case, because I have doubts about the new ordination rite and the new formula for the consecration of bishops (to be blunt, I have doubts as to whether they are priests), the FSSP and the Diocese Indult mass is not an option. Since the people leaving have no such doubts, I wonder why they chose to go to the SSPX chapel in the first place, instead of just going to the FSSP and indult? The FSSP and Indult mass communities do not need money, they have the diocese buildings and "old money" from 100's of years of donations. Why would they go through all the expense and trouble of building OLOS? Is it just because of the school?
You can't be 100% sure you get a priest ordained in the old rite by bishop consecrated in the old right with the SSPX because Novus Ordo priests do convert to the SSPX. You can be more certain with CMRI and other such sedevacantist priests, can't you?
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In my case, because I have doubts about the new ordination rite and the new formula for the consecration of bishops (to be blunt, I have doubts as to whether they are priests), the FSSP and the Diocese Indult mass is not an option. Since the people leaving have no such doubts, I wonder why they chose to go to the SSPX chapel in the first place, instead of just going to the FSSP and indult? The FSSP and Indult mass communities do not need money, they have the diocese buildings and "old money" from 100's of years of donations.
Why would they go through all the expense and trouble of building OLOS? Is it just because of the school? [/quote]
You've asked a question that may have a more explosive answer than we could imagine ?
So, Msgr. Fellay et al, have known they were going to do a deal with Rome since at least 2009.
1. Why then, have they kept pumping their faithful for money?
2. Why do they push to accuмulate more and more chapel properties?
3. Why do the feign poverty and go begging for seminary donations, when the Jaidhoff's have given them 80 million Euros?
A very handy strategy would be to drain the traditional Catholic movement of as much financial resources as possible before they go newChuch.
The xSPX's new theology is: "We are Church and Trads outside of the xSPX are schismatic and going to Hell".
It is very likely Msg. Fellay has colluded with his newChurch masters to try and gut the Trad movement as much as they can.
Surely the both of them... do not want any further competition.
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...No need to be paranoid with me...
Here's a question for you—What tribe perfected the tactic of treating political and religious opposition as mental illness?
Good post!
*raises hand*
Teacher, pick me! I know the answer, yes I do!
OK.... the person over there with the raised hand.... the answer?
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My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave?
Perhaps to Queen of the Holy Rosary (http://www.cmri.org/latin-mass-directory/phoenix-queen-of-holy-rosary-parish.shtml) with Fr. Cordova, CMRI.
I am not aware of anyone heading to a sede parish. I'm not sede either, so I would never go to Bp. Sanborn's place or others.
I aware of one family who went to the FSSP, and the reason why, which relates to some of the "changes" taking place.
I'm not surprised there are others there. I have no issue with the FSSP in particular, although I am not a fan of Fr. Remski.
I do wonder what he will do with his dislike of the SSPX when the deal happens shortly...haha.
Fr. Remski? If I remember correctly:
Fr. Remski is the one who, after having surgery to fix his deafness, started giving abusive sermons, setting parishioner against parishioner... AND... he gave to the Novus Ordo bishop $300,000 of money that the parishioners had donated set aside for chapel improvements. The owner of the property and the remaining parishioners had the FSSP leave and invited the SSPX instead.
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It is also to be mentioned that Fr. Wegner (in his money chastisement) said that SSPX parishes pay a "tax" to the SSPX that goes into a legal fund to defend lawsuits against them.
Perhaps PhxGroup can expand on that a bit.
Lawsuits??
Have you seen this?
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/farmingville-church-misused-donations-lawsuit-claims-1.11680441
Fr. Wegner is named as a defendant.
More here: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=40585&min=0&num=10
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I have been involved with OLOS for a while and made an account just to raise a few points. Although I do not attend a Resistence mass site, due to constant travel with work and unavailability of resistence priests where I live/work, I empathize and agree with multiple points that you all and Bishop Williamson raise.
Now, there are some legitimate issues being raised in this thread but a big chunk is based on unfactual rumors. Many of them stem from something that many "Sunday"parishioners do not understand: (1) Building and maintaining a church is very, very expensive.
- Yes the sound system was an issue. Adjustments are made on a weekly basis,to my understanding.
- The infamous bookstore. Gosh I never knew moving the bookstore to the Hall was such a contested issue. The manager is the same person and the books areexactly the same at the exact same prices. They still do special orders and do not charge parishioners the extra shipping charges. The size is smaller but they carry the exact same materials. The new location will be larger and more digitized to ensure faster processing of special orders. They are also planning on expanding the Spanish books section.
- Lack of Statuary. During the design phase, the priests emphasized the need for additional side alters for easier scheduling of private priest masses. We had two options. One was to use one of the priest offices and stick 4 wooden altars there for use or to build the main parish with multiple side chapels. We agreed on building spaces for the priests to say their private masses. Honestly, none of the priests or the directors or donors regret this. There are about 3 one-week long retreats for priests during the year and these spaces have proven very useful and have allowed the priests to celebrate their morning masses without disturbance.
- The stained glass: These will be installed, AT THE EARLIEST, one year from now. There were only 2 firms in the entire country (TWO!) that make custom stained glass that fit our needs and budget. You can't make stained glass on a home printer. They take months to make and are increadibly expensive. We are luckey to even be getting them. It was very contested because of the price.
Some more important points:
- Fr. R. Yes, he left and, from what people are saying, he will probably not be back. Priests get moved all the time and get re-assigned. Fr. R was seriously overworked to the bone. Anyone that actually knows him knows that he woke up at 6 in the morning and worked until sundown with few breaks. After his morning prayers and mass, he was with the schoolchildren unless he was assigned to say the 8AM public mass. He was involved with the school until 5PM, disciplining children and speaking with parents and teaching religion. He was also in charge of the grounds. Often times he was also responsible for scheduling the other priest's mass times, the retreat schedules, and preaching the retreat meditations. He deserves a break. Because of this, the duties are now evenly split between the priests and brothers. He would always ask for more help from the parishoners would, with fathers working full days and mothers doing the work of the home and school, it was an increadibly difficult task. Please pray for him and all the priests.
- OLOS is growing and this brings large challenges for the community. Yes, there are more people not wearing their SUnday best and the chapel is looking a little sluggish. It is raising important questions about who we are as a faithful of Tradition and our relationships with "newcomers." The older generation and the younger generation have different answers and this is causing controversy and problems. Sometimes I see some parishioners speak to newcomers with a serious lack of prudence. One interaction I will never forget was how, while sipping on coffee, someone was asking a young-adult about how his confirmation was "probably invalid" and pushing him to talk to Fr. R. about being conditionally confirmed. Prudence my friends! Not all at once!
- OLOS has an attached school. Mass and confession times for the parish have to allign well with the school's schedule to minimize parking and other inconveniences. The priests have, however, all stated, multiple times, that there is a priory next door and, as long as you call in advance, one of the fathers is always willing to sit in the confessional for you at a selected time.
- There are also issues of the maintanence costs for the parish, the increase in mission parishes, and other issues that I'll discuss in detail in another post in the future.
Please pray for our priests!
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Reminds me of another Roger -- Mr. Rogers, to be precise -- painting a rosy picture while deflecting attention from certain points.
A lot of what he said didn't contradict the other statements at all.
Lack of statuary: Did he say "no, there are 12 statues there, the lack of statuary is a rumor." No, we went on about side altars. Is that any reason to get rid of all or most of the statues?
There is a serious controversy at this chapel, causing many parishioners to leave and not just for the Resistance. When parishioners leave in significant numbers in every which direction (indult, Resistance, sedevacantist chapels) you know the SSPX chapel in question has a problem!
Of course, I'll grant that this post might not have been intended as a full rebuttal, and I hope not because it certainly didn't achieve that!
Notice how he didn't address Fr. Wegner's heavy handed debt-collection tactics, and many other points given in this thread.
And he casually mentions "more missions" -- yeah, like the San Antonio, TX chapel. I heard that recently it came out at the SSPX chapel that, indeed, all the money is being spent on flying these priests in from Phoenix, AZ. Both on plane tickets, and support for the priory which supports the priests. All in all, San Antonio can forget their own much-needed chapel upgrade for a while longer (they've waited 15 years, what's another 1 or 2?)
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Roger is my first name.
Some of the statuary is in the Chapel, some of it was moved to the priory, some of it is in storage for when the basement is fixed, a few were sent to the new Colorado SSPX Chapel months ago, and I do not know where the rest is. I doubt it was sold to a company and don't know how anyone would know that unless you are on the board of directors or heard it from the priest directly.
I do not know where this sentiment of large chunks of parishioners leaving is coming from. The Vigil mass was packed with dozens of people standing outside. Both Sunday masses are also full. I don't know how/where people are coming up with these statements. The collection amounts have been the same and are about avewrage for the typical American SSPX chapel in a mid sized city.
Also, I do not know of where these accusations of devotions not being celebrated are coming from. There are first friday, first saturday devotions. Rosary is said in the retreat chapel.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, the chapel is, by the grace of God, producing vocations.
Yes, they mention the debt many times. Their is a debt that has to be repayed! Do you expect them to just ignore it? It's a huge chapel! There are thousands of dollars of costs every month. If the fathers were not heavy handed how would we close the debt? I think these will slowly subside as Fr. Crane transitions into the full time pastor and Fr. Wegner leaves.
I didn't say everything was perfect. I didn't try to paint a rosy picture. I am not happy with how quickly Fr. R. left. I do not like the rotating priests. I do not like Fr. Wegner, even though his homilies are usually excellent because he employs a ton of Aquinas. I think the chapel was built too quickly. There was little fundraising before the project began. Everything was rushed to ensure the project was complete before the city zoning requirements changed.
I do not anything about the San Antonio chapel and, out of prudence and a lack of proper information, I will not comment on that. I travel with my work often and am closely familiar with the Pheonix, Los Angeles, and Denver chapels. Although, if things work out, I might be permanently stationed in Chicago for the next four years!
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It is also to be mentioned that Fr. Wegner (in his money chastisement) said that SSPX parishes pay a "tax" to the SSPX that goes into a legal fund to defend lawsuits against them.
Perhaps PhxGroup can expand on that a bit.
Lawsuits??
Have you seen this?
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/farmingville-church-misused-donations-lawsuit-claims-1.11680441
Fr. Wegner is named as a defendant.
More here: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=40585&min=0&num=10
This lawsuit goes far to explain why Fr. Veggy's need to abandon the Faith and "re-brand".
(http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2014/09/12/12166569/gI_60006_fr_jurgen_wegner460.png)
Alas, Judas had a lot of "jew-pressure" on him too.
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...the board of directors....
While the Rothschild-Gutmann commissariat is quick to insist on the "imprudence" of Bp. Williamson's historically accurate (yet criminalized) statements about the most organized of God's opposition on this earth, it is actually the commissariat, "management," that is bereft of prudence.
There was nothing prudent about presenting the project, its design, and it financing as fait accompli handed down by "directors" who now demand "rent." A simple survey before announcing the design and handing out pledge cards would have engaged the "renters" in the project.
Parishioners are responding to the lukewarm ѕуηαgσgυє-submissive "re-branding," lack of charity ("slobs," haranguing children at play and parents feeding their babies, restraining orders, lawsuits, etc.), and malfeasance (Sloniker, Oscar Wilde plays) with the only means at their disposal: their wallets and their feet.
To pretend that the size of the bookstore is the measure of the issues is a тαℓмυdic misdirection meant to hide the fundamental issues.
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Some of the statuary is in the Chapel, some of it was moved to the priory, some of it is in storage for when the basement is fixed, a few were sent to the new Colorado SSPX Chapel months ago, and I do not know where the rest is. I doubt it was sold to a company and don't know how anyone would know that unless you are on the board of directors or heard it from the priest directly.
I do not know where this sentiment of large chunks of parishioners leaving is coming from. The Vigil mass was packed with dozens of people standing outside. Both Sunday masses are also full. I don't know how/where people are coming up with these statements. The collection amounts have been the same and are about avewrage for the typical American SSPX chapel in a mid sized city.
Smoke and Mirrors The "rest" of the statuary that you allude to accounts for about 75% hardly any went to the priory and what "storage" ? The basement is what is being used for storage now. Are you saying the statues are in the basement Rodger?
You still didn't answer the question about why there is no statuary in the church NOW. Though the novus ordo style palm trees and ivy drapped around the alter is interesting, all that is missing is a water fountain
While we are on the subject of the secular sanitizing of our church
Why was the small grotto of Our Lady of Grace outside the old cry room removed and where is it ?
Why was the large icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help removed from the hall ?
Why were ALL of the pictures of St. Pius X removed from the main chapel ,retreat chapel, conference room and hall ?
Why was the Our Lady of Guadalupe removed from the old church vestibule and not put in the new one as promised ?
These questions only concern the statuary and alike we have many more about the devotions ,HNS and sacraments but we will wait until later for that
How can you in good conscience say that parishioners are not leaving and collections are not down ...only that is not what you said is it ? you just wondered who could have said such a thing You try to be clever with words to avoid or hind the truth only it is not clever it is condescending
What does "about average for the typical American SSPX chapel in a mid sized city" even mean ?
for those that are interested ,
Regular Mass attendance is down as are collections The church is not even close to making its debt payment through the building fund collection and those are hard cold facts
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How can you in good conscience say that parishioners are not leaving and collections are not down ...only that is not what you said is it ? you just wondered who could have said such a thing You try to be clever with words to avoid or hind the truth only it is not clever it is condescending
What does "about average for the typical American SSPX chapel in a mid sized city" even mean ?
for those that are interested ,
Regular Mass attendance is down as are collections The church is not even close to making its debt payment through the building fund collection and those are hard cold facts
Good catch. You gotta watch these Trads -- they often want to avoid lying, so they use mental reservation and redirection to avoid telling outright falsehoods. They try to trick you into deceiving YOURSELF by assuming something totally false after reading their words, which is "totally not their problem."
If the both Masses were really standing room only, and collections were fine, then why is Fr. Wegner getting involved at all? And why is he hammering home the point so hard about repaying the debt? With the optimism of Roger, you'd think there were no issues there. They should be making their loan payments AND THEN SOME.
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Matthew:
Good catch. You gotta watch these Trads -- they often want to avoid lying, so they use mental reservation and redirection to avoid telling outright falsehoods. They try to trick you into deceiving YOURSELF by assuming something totally false after reading their words, which is "totally not their problem."
Never trust a "trad." LOL
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I do not know where this sentiment of large chunks of parishioners leaving is coming from. The Vigil mass was packed with dozens of people standing outside. Both Sunday masses are also full. I don't know how/where people are coming up with these statements. The collection amounts have been the same and are about avewrage for the typical American SSPX chapel in a mid sized city.
I do not know where this sentiment of large chunks of parishioners leaving is coming from.
But what about the fact of the chapel loosing parishioners?
Let me put in the proper punctuation for the next bit:
"The Vigil mass was packed with dozens of people standing outside.", "Both Sunday masses are also full."
I don't know how/where people are coming up with these statements.
Yeah, kind of outlandish, aren't they?
The collection amounts have been the same and are about avewrage for the typical American SSPX chapel in a mid sized city.
Yes, they've been the same (down 50%?) for the past ? (six?) months.
And Phoenix is the #6 city in the USA in terms of population. (San Antonio is #7) How is that a mid-sized city?
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/a0763098.html
It's great that a Priory (3-4 resident priests) with a new church building in the #6 American city can manage to pull in donations that are "about average for the typical American SSPX chapel in a mid sized city."
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It is easy to defend the truth. The opposite is not so easy. That is why the Vatican II popes write 264 page docuмents, where St. Paul says the opposite in one sentence.
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...No need to be paranoid with me...
Here's a question for you—What tribe perfected the tactic of treating political and religious opposition as mental illness?
Good post!
*raises hand*
Teacher, pick me! I know the answer, yes I do!
OK.... the person over there with the raised hand.... the answer?
It's the Jews!
Or, would that specifically be the Tribe of Dan?
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...No need to be paranoid with me...
Here's a question for you—What tribe perfected the tactic of treating political and religious opposition as mental illness?
Good post!
*raises hand*
Teacher, pick me! I know the answer, yes I do!
OK.... the person over there with the raised hand.... the answer?
It's the Jews!
Or, would that specifically be the Tribe of Dan?
Correct answer. Unfortunately, the prize money went to... "rent." (Just kidding.)
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...No need to be paranoid with me...
Here's a question for you—What tribe perfected the tactic of treating political and religious opposition as mental illness?
Good post!
*raises hand*
Teacher, pick me! I know the answer, yes I do!
OK.... the person over there with the raised hand.... the answer?
It's the Jews!
Or, would that specifically be the Tribe of Dan?
(http://handbill.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Perfidious-Jew.png)
"Ultimately, it's the devil, the world and the flesh...
We're just here to help these three processes become more efficient."
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The owner of the property and the remaining parishioners had the FSSP leave and invited the SSPX instead.
Owner of what property?
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If the both Masses were really standing room only, and collections were fine, then why is Fr. Wegner getting involved at all? And why is he hammering home the point so hard about repaying the debt? With the optimism of Roger, you'd think there were no issues there. They should be making their loan payments AND THEN SOME.
I can attest to the fact that both Masses are certainly not "standing room only."
The 8 am is usually pretty busy, (but not full, the chapel does seat close to 700 after all!) due to the fact that most of the larger families with kids attend that one. The 10 am is much less busy.
I would say attendence seems a little down, but I don't have numbers.
The interesting thing about the debt is that they said the payment is $11K per month, but the "total debt" amount ($2,553,703) listed in the bulletin each Sunday NEVER CHANGES.
Shouldn't the total debt amount go down by $11K each month?....LOL.
A recent collections summary in the bulletin showed that the "building fund" collection is down dramatically:
2012 Avg.: 21,510
2013 Avg.: 33,127
2014 Avg.: 46,966
Jan 2016: 15,579
Feb 2016: 9,526
Mar 2016: 9,067
A steep drop, eh?
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...No need to be paranoid with me...
Here's a question for you—What tribe perfected the tactic of treating political and religious opposition as mental illness?
Good post!
*raises hand*
Teacher, pick me! I know the answer, yes I do!
OK.... the person over there with the raised hand.... the answer?
It's the Jews!
Or, would that specifically be the Tribe of Dan?
Correct answer. Unfortunately, the prize money went to... "rent." (Just kidding.)
I'm starting to wonder if my landlord might be a Jew.
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- The stained glass: These will be installed, AT THE EARLIEST, one year from now. There were only 2 firms in the entire country (TWO!) that make custom stained glass that fit our needs and budget. You can't make stained glass on a home printer. They take months to make and are increadibly expensive. We are luckey to even be getting them. It was very contested because of the price.
Where is the stained glass?
Everybody wants to know, and it is something I hear a lot.
It should have been done at the outset, especially if the money was already collected from the parishioners for them.
You do not need new stained glass.
It is much better, both in terms of the beauty of the finished product, and in cost-effectiveness, to get windows that are from defunct 120-year old Churches that have been shuttered by the Novus Ordo. The reason is that they just don't make them in 2016 the way they used to!
OLOS's baldachin, altar and altar rail, pulpit, and side altars were procured this way. They came from Immaculate Conception Church in East Germantown, a suburb of Pittsburgh, PA.
See original photos here:
http://www.friendsofimmaculate.com/photo_album.htm
Immaculate Conception's original stained glass windows are available for our Church, and they would fit into the design of our windows.
It would cost around $180K-$200K, which is about HALF of what the quote was for new windows, if your figures are the same as mine.
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...
The interesting thing about the debt is that they said the payment is $11K per month, but the "total debt" amount ($2,553,703) listed in the bulletin each Sunday NEVER CHANGES.
Shouldn't the total debt amount go down by $11K each month?....
It depends what interest rate is being charged by Shylock for his "donation."
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It is also to be mentioned that Fr. Wegner (in his money chastisement) said that SSPX parishes pay a "tax" to the SSPX that goes into a legal fund to defend lawsuits against them.
Perhaps PhxGroup can expand on that a bit.
Lawsuits??
Have you seen this?
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/farmingville-church-misused-donations-lawsuit-claims-1.11680441
Fr. Wegner is named as a defendant.
More here: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=40585&min=0&num=10
WHOA!! How interesting.
It seems there is an awful lot of misused donations.
I guess the money has already been collected on the windows, but was not used to buy the windows.
So, now how do you "collect" money to buy the windows? And what do you tell the people who thought they "bought" a window?
It occurs to me that this was the very reason a group of parishioners drove out Fr. Pfeiffer years ago - they said he was co-mingling funds between Denver and Phoenix, paying for Phoenix stuff from Denver or vice versa.
But, now this same group is doing the exact same thing?? Using money for another purpose other than it's intended one?
People just want their money to go to what they donated it for.
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The interesting thing about the debt is that they said the payment is $11K per month, but the "total debt" amount ($2,553,703) listed in the bulletin each Sunday NEVER CHANGES.
Shouldn't the total debt amount go down by $11K each month?....LOL.
No, the whole debt service payment doesn't go to the principal. There is also interest. You know, to make usurers like this guy wealthy:
(http://handbill.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Perfidious-Jew.png)
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.
It seems there is an awful lot of misused donations.
I guess the money has already been collected on the windows, but was not used to buy the windows.
So, now how do you "collect" money to buy the windows? And what do you tell the people who thought they "bought" a window?
It occurs to me that this was the very reason a group of parishioners drove out Fr. Pfeiffer years ago - they said he was co-mingling funds between Denver and Phoenix, paying for Phoenix stuff from Denver or vice versa.
But, now this same group is doing the exact same thing?? Using money for another purpose other than it's intended one?
People just want their money to go to what they donated it for.
You don't tell the people anything you don't have up dates or parish meetings you don't answer questions and on the odd occasion you are questioned and there is not a usher around to help you just play dumb like you have no idea what is going on
We know of one family ( a very well established SSPX family if you get our drift) what paid cash up front . They are still waiting and left wondering
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Also with all this talk of the debt and pledges lets keep in mind that almost all of the pledges were made for an entirely different church .We saw the painting , it was prominently displayed during the first pledge drive
Would that not void a pledge ? Changing what the money was used for ? Or is it close enough ( still a church sort-of) to make said pledge still valid ?
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More admonishments for the faithful from Fr. Wegner this week.
Although I happened to agree with him on the subject matter, it still rubbed me the wrong way. It is getting tiresome to be berated by him virtually every Sunday he is here.
I have heard it said somewhere that the SSPX sends foreign priests intentionally to American parishes to demoralize the faithful. I am starting to wonder if it is true, because it is working! Even if he weren't constantly telling this parish that we are doing something wrong, I would be alienated and irritated by his accent every week. American parishioners deserve American priests, European parishioners deserve Eurpoean priests, etc. Thankfully, Fr. Stafki will be taking over soon.
His subject was that some parishioner last week had apparently incharitably scolded a new attendee for their manner of dress. He said the faithful should leave that job to the priests, and I agree - don't want to scare off new people with something they can't help not knowing, since our culture is so rotten. However, the lack of charity the people showed the new person is likely an extension of the lack of charity the priests show the faithful around here, IMO.
Doesn't it say in the Book of Revelation that in the End Times charity will grow cold??
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Anyone notice last month's "deficit"? About $2,500. Anyone price Phoenix AZ-Platte City MO round trip air flights lately? (about $450)
I have an idea for reducing the deficit.
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Fr. Stafki was sent to OLoS to try a different approach
He is to play the part of happy-go-lucky friend to all parish priest BUT nothing is going to change as far as the church itself goes "Debt & interest first then construction will resume
How do we know ? when asked about a sign out front or on site the answer given was "that decision has already been made " not a yes or no just "that decision has already been made"
from what we hear that is the answer given to many questions that where asked
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More admonishments for the faithful from Fr. Wegner this week.
His subject was that some parishioner last week had apparently incharitably scolded a new attendee for their manner of dress. He said the faithful should leave that job to the priests, ?
Interesting that after Mass Father Wegner walked up to one of the ushers ( one who happens to be deep on the inside with keys to every lock on the property ) just outside the bookstore closet and asked him what he thought of the sermon then asked "is that what we needed " the reply was "yes" then they stepped away and talked further
We were sitting right there within ear shot
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More admonishments for the faithful from Fr. Wegner this week.
His subject was that some parishioner last week had apparently incharitably scolded a new attendee for their manner of dress. He said the faithful should leave that job to the priests, ?
Interesting that after Mass Father Wegner walked up to one of the ushers ( one who happens to be deep on the inside with keys to every lock on the property ) just outside the bookstore closet and asked him what he thought of the sermon then asked "is that what we needed " the reply was "yes" then they stepped away and talked further
We were sitting right there within ear shot
Except.... on the Feast of St. Joseph the Worker, a man, the sermon was almost entirely about a woman, a holy woman (St. Terese of Lisieux), but a woman nonetheless. St. Joseph received only a brief gloss.
What we needed was a rousing sermon aimed at fathers, husbands, working men, not another airy-fairy sermon with a woman as our example.
Incidentally, I appreciate knowing what is overheard. Thank you.
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.
Incidentally, I appreciate knowing what is overheard. Thank you.
Your Welcome ,
though the point of the post was our sheer amazement at hearing our district superior not only ask a usher if that (being the sermon) is what we needed
but ask if he liked the sermon. Outrageous !
In this instance we were not the only ones who heard it . that is why we think the usher with his hand on Fathers arm walked a few feet away before they started talking again
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.
Incidentally, I appreciate knowing what is overheard. Thank you.
Your Welcome ,
though the point of the post was our sheer amazement at hearing our district superior not only ask a usher if that (being the sermon) is what we needed
but ask if he liked the sermon. Outrageous !
In this instance we were not the only ones who heard it . that is why we think the usher with his hand on Fathers arm walked a few feet away before they started talking again
Oh, Father Veggy is fun...
(http://laportelatine.org/images/portrait/wegner_140828.jpg)
Cause you can read this foreigner like a book.
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More admonishments for the faithful from Fr. Wegner this week.
His subject was that some parishioner last week had apparently incharitably scolded a new attendee for their manner of dress. He said the faithful should leave that job to the priests, ?
Interesting that after Mass Father Wegner walked up to one of the ushers ( one who happens to be deep on the inside with keys to every lock on the property ) just outside the bookstore closet and asked him what he thought of the sermon then asked "is that what we needed " the reply was "yes" then they stepped away and talked further
We were sitting right there within ear shot
That is totally depressing.
And I am 90% sure I know who you are referring to, but even still it is sort of shocking if that is the level of "power" wielded. Requesting certain types of sermons? I want to gag.
I have a bad feeling that all hell could break loose after the deal.
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Who else heard Fr. Chavarria wax about the feminine, "mother," qualities of the Holy Ghost in his Trinity Sunday sermon?
Is this Apostolic? Can it be found in the Fathers? …or Doctors? ...or Popes? Is there legitimate support for such?
Or is Scott Hahn's First Comes Love, Judaism's Shekinah (http://judaism.is/paganism.html), feminine, goddess, refer-to-the-Holy-Ghost-as-"she" now part of SSPX priestly formation?
We have a mother in Our Blessed Mother. We have a mother in Holy Mother Church. But the Holy Ghost a mother? Mary, a woman, conceived Jesus through another "mother"?
Even the Novus Ordo "Catechism" insists that the Holy Ghost is properly "He." §683, 687
This seems born of wiccan, Gaia "geologians," feminists, women's ordination disorientation, not Catholic doctrine or theology.
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Who else heard Fr. Chavarria wax about the feminine, "mother," qualities of the Holy Ghost in his Trinity Sunday sermon?
Is this Apostolic? Can it be found in the Fathers? …or Doctors? ...or Popes? Is there legitimate support for such?
Or is Scott Hahn's First Comes Love, Judaism's Shekinah (http://judaism.is/paganism.html), feminine, goddess, refer-to-the-Holy-Ghost-as-"she" now part of SSPX priestly formation?
We have a mother in Our Blessed Mother. We have a mother in Holy Mother Church. But the Holy Ghost a mother? Mary, a woman, conceived Jesus through another "mother"?
Even the Novus Ordo "Catechism" insists that the Holy Ghost is properly "He." §683, 687
This seems born of wiccan, Gaia "geologians," feminists, women's ordination disorientation, not Catholic doctrine or theology.
I missed the second half of the sermon due to a screeching little one.
However, I did notice that there was not one word of protest from Fr. Chavarria regarding the Pope's comparison of the Apostle's preaching with ISIS's "conquest."
The priests are neutered. They never say a word against any of the nonsense that Bergoglio spews.
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There was nothing prudent about presenting the project, its design, and its financing as a fait accompli handed down by "directors" who now demand "rent." A simple survey before announcing the design and handing out pledge cards would have engaged the "renters" in the project.
Parishioners are responding to the lukewarm ѕуηαgσgυє-submissive "re-branding," lack of charity ("slobs," haranguing children at play and parents feeding their babies, restraining orders, lawsuits, etc.), and malfeasance (Sloniker, Oscar Wilde plays) with the only means at their disposal: their wallets and their feet.
This is a very good post.
It is absoultely true. Many people have left for parts unknown since Fellay's mutiny of 2012.
It will be interesting to see how the "imminent" deal with Rome plays out for the parish.
I will be sickened if they hold some sort of "celebration" Mass to commemorate being "brought back" to Rome and would not plan on attending.
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Who else heard Fr. Chavarria wax about the feminine, "mother," qualities of the Holy Ghost in his Trinity Sunday sermon?
Is this Apostolic? Can it be found in the Fathers? …or Doctors? ...or Popes? Is there legitimate support for such?
Or is Scott Hahn's First Comes Love, Judaism's Shekinah (http://judaism.is/paganism.html), feminine, goddess, refer-to-the-Holy-Ghost-as-"she" now part of SSPX priestly formation?
We have a mother in Our Blessed Mother. We have a mother in Holy Mother Church. But the Holy Ghost a mother? Mary, a woman, conceived Jesus through another "mother"?
Even the Novus Ordo "Catechism" insists that the Holy Ghost is properly "He." §683, 687
This seems born of wiccan, Gaia "geologians," feminists, women's ordination disorientation, not Catholic doctrine or theology.
I missed the second half of the sermon due to a screeching little one.
However, I did notice that there was not one word of protest from Fr. Chavarria regarding the Pope's comparison of the Apostle's preaching with ISIS's "conquest."
The priests are neutered. They never say a word against any of the nonsense that Bergoglio spews.
Indeed when Fr. Chavarria got to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, it was in the "second half" that you missed. Horrifying to hear such feminization of the Holy Ghost coming from an SSPX priest.
My search has found nothing in Catholic theology remotely like Fr. Chavarria's theory.
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Who else heard Fr. Chavarria wax about the feminine, "mother," qualities of the Holy Ghost in his Trinity Sunday sermon?
Is this Apostolic? Can it be found in the Fathers? …or Doctors? ...or Popes? Is there legitimate support for such?
Or is Scott Hahn's First Comes Love, Judaism's Shekinah (http://judaism.is/paganism.html), feminine, goddess, refer-to-the-Holy-Ghost-as-"she" now part of SSPX priestly formation?
We have a mother in Our Blessed Mother. We have a mother in Holy Mother Church. But the Holy Ghost a mother? Mary, a woman, conceived Jesus through another "mother"?
Even the Novus Ordo "Catechism" insists that the Holy Ghost is properly "He." §683, 687
This seems born of wiccan, Gaia "geologians," feminists, women's ordination disorientation, not Catholic doctrine or theology.
[color=darkblue]It's Heresy, with a capital "H".[/color]
Hahn's "maternal spirit" compared to ancient heresies (http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2009/09/scott-hahns-maternal-spirit-compared-to.html)
Just another sign the xSPX's liberalism is spiraling out of control.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6vRJc30xGnk/Ub8gV0BN5lI/AAAAAAAAHOU/98Do5NxNDm8/s1600/Downward+spiral.png)
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Who else heard Fr. Chavarria wax about the feminine, "mother," qualities of the Holy Ghost in his Trinity Sunday sermon?
Is this Apostolic? Can it be found in the Fathers? …or Doctors? ...or Popes? Is there legitimate support for such?
Or is Scott Hahn's First Comes Love, Judaism's Shekinah (http://judaism.is/paganism.html), feminine, goddess, refer-to-the-Holy-Ghost-as-"she" now part of SSPX priestly formation?
We have a mother in Our Blessed Mother. We have a mother in Holy Mother Church. But the Holy Ghost a mother? Mary, a woman, conceived Jesus through another "mother"?
Even the Novus Ordo "Catechism" insists that the Holy Ghost is properly "He." §683, 687
This seems born of wiccan, Gaia "geologians," feminists, women's ordination disorientation, not Catholic doctrine or theology.
[color=darkblue]It's Heresy, with a capital "H".[/color]
Hahn's "maternal spirit" compared to ancient heresies (http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2009/09/scott-hahns-maternal-spirit-compared-to.html)
Just another sign the xSPX's liberalism is spiraling out of control.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6vRJc30xGnk/Ub8gV0BN5lI/AAAAAAAAHOU/98Do5NxNDm8/s1600/Downward+spiral.png)
Truly a worthwhile find, including Hahn's defense, a defense that underscores the flaws of Wojtyla the Second Worst's "saint" factory. …and Yves Congar as a witness for the defense? Risible.
I find the author's citation of gnostics as more credible evidence of the roots of the feminization of the Holy Ghost:
Belief in a divine mother was always popular with the gnostics, as with the pagans, and many early gnostics ended up denying the Personhood of the Holy Spirit and replacing it with some kind of "mother-spirit" consort of God the Father. Consider:
In the Gospel of the Egyptians, a gnostic-Coptic work written in the 2nd century, God is referred to as the Father, the Son and "the Mother, the virginal Barbelon."
Another contemporary gnostic work, the Trimorphic Pretennoia, we find a reference to "the Father, the Mother and the Son."
In the Apocryphon of John, a 2nd century gnostic work referred to by St. Irenaeus, a mystical voice announces to John the Disciple: "I am the one who is with you always. I am the Father; I am the Mother; I am the Son."
The famous Gospel of Philip presents Christ as conceived by a union between the Father and the Spirit who is both Virgin and Mother. The author sees the spirit as essentially female (perhaps following on the fact that the Hebrew word ruah (spirit) is feminine) and attempts to rebuff the orthodox position by saying: "Some said, 'Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit.' These are in error. They do not know what they are saying. When did a woman ever conceive by a woman?"
In the Gospel of the Hebrews, Jesus speaks of "my Mother, the Holy Spirit."
In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus contrasts His earthly mother and father, Joseph and Mary, with His heavenly Father and His "divine" Mother, the Holy Spirit. Jesus is made to say that whoever becomes a Christian gains both a Father and a Mother, who is the Spirit.
When we see how many early heretical writings saw the Holy Spirit as a feminine mother, we should not be surprised that Dr. Hahn can muster up so little genuine patristic support for his ideas. The fact that heretics believe something does not mean it is wrong ipso facto, but if a whole bunch of heretics profess something and none of the legitimate Church Fathers do, it ought to give you pause.
My stomach is still churning that such a maternal view of both spouses, the gnostic lesbianization of the Incarnation, made its way into an allegedly traditional Church.
As far as Hahn goes, he is solid evidence why (with very rare exceptions) converts should keep their big mouths shut. When their big mouths are open, they are not listening or learning.
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Obviously an old heresy, concocted by the "seed-bag of all heresies", the jews. (St. Pope Pius V)
This тαℓмυdic "shekinah" image is from the 14th Century.
(http://www.the-branch.org/i/shekinah-second-ann-p3.jpg)
An an xSPX priest is promoting it? Doesn't that beat all.
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Who else heard Fr. Chavarria wax about the feminine, "mother," qualities of the Holy Ghost in his Trinity Sunday sermon?
Is this Apostolic? Can it be found in the Fathers? …or Doctors? ...or Popes? Is there legitimate support for such?
Or is Scott Hahn's First Comes Love, Judaism's Shekinah (http://judaism.is/paganism.html), feminine, goddess, refer-to-the-Holy-Ghost-as-"she" now part of SSPX priestly formation?
We have a mother in Our Blessed Mother. We have a mother in Holy Mother Church. But the Holy Ghost a mother? Mary, a woman, conceived Jesus through another "mother"?
Even the Novus Ordo "Catechism" insists that the Holy Ghost is properly "He." §683, 687
This seems born of wiccan, Gaia "geologians," feminists, women's ordination disorientation, not Catholic doctrine or theology.
I missed the second half of the sermon due to a screeching little one.
However, I did notice that there was not one word of protest from Fr. Chavarria regarding the Pope's comparison of the Apostle's preaching with ISIS's "conquest."
The priests are neutered. They never say a word against any of the nonsense that Bergoglio spews.
Indeed when Fr. Chavarria got to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, it was in the "second half" that you missed. Horrifying to hear such feminization of the Holy Ghost coming from an SSPX priest.
My search has found nothing in Catholic theology remotely like Fr. Chavarria's theory.
What exactly did he say? Like, the Holy Ghost is the "mother" or something in the Trinity?? I'm sorry I missed that!
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
On the other hand, if one goes into a chapel looking for something to be outraged by, one will find it without much difficulty.
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
Likely they have nowhere else to go.
I could make similar complaints about my SSPX chapel, however, I don't bother, it will not change anything, I don't run the show. I'm down to only one reason why I go there, I have no doubt the priest is valid. Whereas, I have doubts as to the validity of orders of ALL the priests within a 1 hour radius of my home.
And I thank God for providing me with undoubtedly valid priests.
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
Likely they have nowhere else to go.
I could make similar complaints about my SSPX chapel, however, I don't bother, it will not change anything, I don't run the show. I'm down to only one reason why I go there, I have no doubt the priest is valid. Whereas, I have doubts as to the validity of orders of ALL the priests within a 1 hour radius of my home.
And I thank God for providing me with undoubtedly valid priests.
Yes, this is the same with me. I go for the Mass and the sacraments and I usually do not stick around very long after Mass or I would surely be one of the complainers myself I think.
For me, I think the prior makes a big difference. The last one we had spoke of nothing but charity and love from the pulpit for the few years he was here, whereas this one actually talks about the sacraments and sin and hell and etc.. Last Sunday, he even told us to start praying the Athanasian Creed daily or at least once a week!
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
Likely they have nowhere else to go.
I could make similar complaints about my SSPX chapel, however, I don't bother, it will not change anything, I don't run the show. I'm down to only one reason why I go there, I have no doubt the priest is valid. Whereas, I have doubts as to the validity of orders of ALL the priests within a 1 hour radius of my home.
And I thank God for providing me with undoubtedly valid priests.
Yes, this is the same with me. I go for the Mass and the sacraments and I usually do not stick around very long after Mass or I would surely be one of the complainers myself I think.
For me, I think the prior makes a big difference. The last one we had spoke of nothing but charity and love from the pulpit for the few years he was here, whereas this one actually talks about the sacraments and sin and hell and etc.. Last Sunday, he even told us to start praying the Athanasian Creed daily or at least once a week!
Good points. Thank you.
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
I note that a number on this forum still attend an SSPX Mass center. Though most of them seem to be scandalized by the obvious decline of the Society, and are outraged by by the Rome-bound behavior of Fellay & Co., they nevertheless continue going to SSPX chapels. Why? Most of these will contend that SSPX still has "valid priests" and "valid Sacraments." They are apparently comforted by this thought. So while the SSPX collapses around them, they hold on desperately to the flotsam and jetsam of perceived "validity." I don't get it either. But then again, we don't have children whom we're trying to raise as Catholics. However, it would seem to me that the SSPX needs to be abandoned altogether, children or no children. The apostolate has failed utterly.
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
I note that a number on this forum still attend an SSPX Mass center. Though most of them seem to be scandalized by the obvious decline of the Society, and are outraged by by the Rome-bound behavior of Fellay & Co., they nevertheless continue going to SSPX chapels. Why? Most of these will contend that SSPX still has "valid priests" and "valid Sacraments." They are apparently comforted by this thought. So while the SSPX collapses around them, they hold on desperately to the flotsam and jetsam of perceived "validity." I don't get it either. But then again, we don't have children whom we're trying to raise as Catholics. However, it would seem to me that the SSPX needs to be abandoned altogether, children or no children. The apostolate has failed utterly.
Here again, I think, for now at least, it depends on which SSPX chapel you're speaking about. Where I go, it has not failed utterly. Since the new Prior, it has even improved, he celebrates an awesome Mass as well.
This priest gives solid sermons, even preaches about the heresy of V2 - not very much or very often, but at least he says something - unlike the last Prior. This Prior has preached strongly on the dogma EENS, the necessity of the sacraments, always urges us to get to confession, preaches every week about sin and so on - all unlike the last Prior.
So for now and for some, there is no good reason not to go to SSPX for Mass because some of the chapels, like mine, are still very solid - even though I know it's only a matter of time before it's leadership steps in and screws it all up. When (not if) that happens, it'll be time to bail.
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Who else heard Fr. Chavarria wax about the feminine, "mother," qualities of the Holy Ghost in his Trinity Sunday sermon?
Is this Apostolic? Can it be found in the Fathers? …or Doctors? ...or Popes? Is there legitimate support for such?
Or is Scott Hahn's First Comes Love, Judaism's Shekinah (http://judaism.is/paganism.html), feminine, goddess, refer-to-the-Holy-Ghost-as-"she" now part of SSPX priestly formation?
We have a mother in Our Blessed Mother. We have a mother in Holy Mother Church. But the Holy Ghost a mother? Mary, a woman, conceived Jesus through another "mother"?
Even the Novus Ordo "Catechism" insists that the Holy Ghost is properly "He." §683, 687
This seems born of wiccan, Gaia "geologians," feminists, women's ordination disorientation, not Catholic doctrine or theology.
I missed the second half of the sermon due to a screeching little one.
However, I did notice that there was not one word of protest from Fr. Chavarria regarding the Pope's comparison of the Apostle's preaching with ISIS's "conquest."
The priests are neutered. They never say a word against any of the nonsense that Bergoglio spews.
Indeed when Fr. Chavarria got to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, it was in the "second half" that you missed. Horrifying to hear such feminization of the Holy Ghost coming from an SSPX priest.
My search has found nothing in Catholic theology remotely like Fr. Chavarria's theory.
What exactly did he say? Like, the Holy Ghost is the "mother" or something in the Trinity?? I'm sorry I missed that!
Not "is a mother," but "like a mother."
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
On the other hand, if one goes into a chapel looking for something to be outraged by, one will find it without much difficulty.
Your question reminds me of talking with "Jews." If you point out even very-well-docuмented heinous acts by "Jews," before you finish your sentence, they are already calling you a hater. In their culture, heinous crimes against humanity is not "hate," but mentioning the crimes or who committed the heinous crimes is "hate." Have you inculturated that behavioral pattern?
I have stopped voting because I refuse to vote for "the lesser of two evils." In that vein, maybe my entire family should stop receiving the sacraments because of glaring lapses that several readers here have noted?
Do you advise that plan?
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I'm down to only one reason why I go there, I have no doubt the priest is valid.
Is this because of the New / Old Rite of Ordinations or is there something else to dissipate your doubts about the validity of a particular priest?
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Who else heard Fr. Chavarria wax about the feminine, "mother," qualities of the Holy Ghost in his Trinity Sunday sermon?
Is this Apostolic? Can it be found in the Fathers? …or Doctors? ...or Popes? Is there legitimate support for such?
Or is Scott Hahn's First Comes Love, Judaism's Shekinah (http://judaism.is/paganism.html), feminine, goddess, refer-to-the-Holy-Ghost-as-"she" now part of SSPX priestly formation?
We have a mother in Our Blessed Mother. We have a mother in Holy Mother Church. But the Holy Ghost a mother? Mary, a woman, conceived Jesus through another "mother"?
Even the Novus Ordo "Catechism" insists that the Holy Ghost is properly "He." §683, 687
This seems born of wiccan, Gaia "geologians," feminists, women's ordination disorientation, not Catholic doctrine or theology.
I missed the second half of the sermon due to a screeching little one.
However, I did notice that there was not one word of protest from Fr. Chavarria regarding the Pope's comparison of the Apostle's preaching with ISIS's "conquest."
The priests are neutered. They never say a word against any of the nonsense that Bergoglio spews.
Indeed when Fr. Chavarria got to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, it was in the "second half" that you missed. Horrifying to hear such feminization of the Holy Ghost coming from an SSPX priest.
My search has found nothing in Catholic theology remotely like Fr. Chavarria's theory.
What exactly did he say? Like, the Holy Ghost is the "mother" or something in the Trinity?? I'm sorry I missed that!
Not "is a mother," but "like a mother."
Aren't male and female characteristics human distinctions? God is the perfection of ALL of those qualities, no? He divided them into generally male and female characteristics for us so that we would complement each other, but my understanding is that if a nurturing quality is good then He is the Author and Origin of such a good. It is encompassed in its perfection in Him. And the Holy Ghost does seem to be the One in the background Who whispers and nurtures the soul.
Is that more what the priest meant? By your account it doesn't sound like he was saying the HG is actually female or a woman or that we ought to refer to Him as She, which I agree would be quite shocking.
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
On the other hand, if one goes into a chapel looking for something to be outraged by, one will find it without much difficulty.
Your question reminds me of talking with "Jews." If you point out even very-well-docuмented heinous acts by "Jews," before you finish your sentence, they are already calling you a hater. In their culture, heinous crimes against humanity is not "hate," but mentioning the crimes or who committed the heinous crimes is "hate." Have you inculturated that behavioral pattern?
I have stopped voting because I refuse to vote for "the lesser of two evils." In that vein, maybe my entire family should stop receiving the sacraments because of glaring lapses that several readers here have noted?
Do you advise that plan?
To answer your questions . . .
No, no, and no.
I never called you, or anyone, a hater. I simply asked a question, because I wasn't understanding why one would continue to go to a place one had such significant problems with. I wouldn't recommend anyone stop receiving the sacraments.
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
On the other hand, if one goes into a chapel looking for something to be outraged by, one will find it without much difficulty.
Your question reminds me of talking with "Jews." If you point out even very-well-docuмented heinous acts by "Jews," before you finish your sentence, they are already calling you a hater. In their culture, heinous crimes against humanity is not "hate," but mentioning the crimes or who committed the heinous crimes is "hate." Have you inculturated that behavioral pattern?
I have stopped voting because I refuse to vote for "the lesser of two evils." In that vein, maybe my entire family should stop receiving the sacraments because of glaring lapses that several readers here have noted?
Do you advise that plan?
To answer your questions . . .
No, no, and no.
I never called you, or anyone, a hater. I simply asked a question, because I wasn't understanding why one would continue to go to a place one had such significant problems with. I wouldn't recommend anyone stop receiving the sacraments.
I read your post quite carefully, as carefully as I have phrased my criticisms. It was then and still is clear to me that you did not call me a hater, but neither was the inference of your ALL CAPS "HATE" lost on me. That is why I referenced "your question."
While I do not believe the Holy Ghost is feminine, I do believe that hysterically assuming that objective recognition of specific, delineated, and docuмented problems is a matter of subjective emotional "HATE" is feminine, Judaic feminine at that.
The re-branded SSPX has some serious objective problems. Among them:
(1) Malfeasance in ignoring parental warnings abut the pederast Sloniker and a subsequent statement that is bereft of priestly holiness and stinks of mental reservation in the style of Pharisee lawyers;
(2) Retreat from preaching "in and out of season" about the most organized of Jesus Christ's earthly enemies;
(3) A distinctly anti-Christ-like pattern of killing-the-messenger as though the society arrogates to itself the charism of infallibility and the authority of Peter;
(4) A distinctly anti-Christ-like pattern of lying about their secret negotiations and changes in policies;
(5) A recent sermon that, at best, was perilously ambiguous about the nature of the Holy Ghost;
(6) Etc.
While a parallel list for the Novus Ordo would be longer, that does not excuse the SSPX from its abject failure at self-reflection, repentence, and reparation for its objective lapses.
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My initial question definitely should not have used the word "HATE." "difficulties/problems with" would have much better captured my intention.
My apologies if I have offended you in some way. That was not my intention. I just know that I love my chapel, and don't have many problems with it at all. God bless you.
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Apology accepted. That is behind us.
You are very blessed and very lucky that you do not have many local problems. I pray that it remains that way.
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As far as what is preached from the pulpit, everything is fantastic. We regularly hear about the errors of Vatican II and the New Mass, the traditional roles of men and women, the crisis in the church, etc. This last week, we were told to pray for the superiors, because "reintegration" is likely a bad thing, or at least it would put us in a dangerous situation. We've been having excerpts from +ABL's writings and sermons on the back of our bulletins to support this idea of reintegration not being good.
I attend two different SSPX chapels in my state, as I travel for work to both sides of the state. The difficulties we have come from the devil working on the people, causing personality clashes and whatnot.
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Who heard today's sermon?
Who heard the condemnation of internet complaints?
Who heard the invitation to come in and talk about the problems?
Who has noticed the pattern of "killing the messenger"?
Any volunteers???
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Who heard today's sermon?
Who heard the condemnation of internet complaints?
Who heard the invitation to come in and talk about the problems?
Who has noticed the pattern of "killing the messenger"?
Any volunteers???
UGH.
It was so ridiculous.
First, the lecture about giving more money yet again, (as if we haven't heard it enough over the past few months from Fr. Wegner) then the condemnation of all of us who talk about the parish on the internet.
Yes, and then the invitation to "come to him and talk about it."
What he failed to acknowledge is that people are on the internet in order to maintain their anonymity because of all the retaliation if they went public. People have been kicked out of parishes. Our own bulletin suggests we "report parishioners to priests."
The SSPX fails to acknowledge they themselves are responsible for the culture they have created. They made it by having a failure of leadership with Bp. Fellay's mutiny on his watch, and his failure to resign after the mutiny and let someone else be in charge. And now they have this overly paranoid atmosphere, where they are worried about what the priests are saying in opposition to Rome (see Fr. Pierre Roy's statement about being silenced) and they are overly worried about the Faithful's opinions of EVERYTHING.
They have completely gotten AWAY from their MISSION.
I could not help but wonder yesterday as I sat hearing this exact same sermon for the umpteenth time about how I would have much rather heard a sermon about Bergoglio saying ISIS is like the Apostles, or how Amoris Laetitiae will be the death of the Church. But, it seems THAT version of the SSPX is dead and gone.
They are no longer focused on the REAL enemy - Rome - they have deluded themselves into thinking their own parishinoners are the enemy.
Really, really sad.
BTW, I saw a man I'd not seen before (maybe he was new?) taking his missal and walking angrily out the door after Fr. Stafki finished. He did not return.
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
On the other hand, if one goes into a chapel looking for something to be outraged by, one will find it without much difficulty.
The sort of scandals that are happening did not occur before the 2012 split.
The priests were not muzzled and mute against Rome.
The faithful were not encouraged in the bulletin to "report" on fellow parishioners.
No one was pressuring the faithful with heavy-handed guilt-laden sermons to give more money.
It was not a paranoid place.
This is not about anyone being overly criticial or looking for a problem.
What is happening IS scandalous!
So, what would you have us do? Find another Church?? Where?
Or, should we stand up for what is going wrong that OUGHT NOT to be happening there?
I think the answer is self-evident.
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We regularly hear about the errors of Vatican II and the New Mass, the traditional roles of men and women, the crisis in the church, etc. This last week, we were told to pray for the superiors, because "reintegration" is likely a bad thing, or at least it would put us in a dangerous situation. We've been having excerpts from +ABL's writings and sermons on the back of our bulletins to support this idea of reintegration not being good.
WOW!
Well, consider yourself very blessed, indeed.
I cannot tell you the last time I heard the good Archbishop's name even mentioned in a sermon.
And I have NEVER - in the past year - heard a priest say ANYTHING against a deal with Rome.
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We regularly hear about the errors of Vatican II and the New Mass, the traditional roles of men and women, the crisis in the church, etc. This last week, we were told to pray for the superiors, because "reintegration" is likely a bad thing, or at least it would put us in a dangerous situation. We've been having excerpts from +ABL's writings and sermons on the back of our bulletins to support this idea of reintegration not being good.
WOW!
Well, consider yourself very blessed, indeed.
I cannot tell you the last time I heard the good Archbishop's name even mentioned in a sermon.
And I have NEVER - in the past year - heard a priest say ANYTHING against a deal with Rome.
I definitely consider myself blessed. I go to two different SSPX chapels, depending where I am for work (east or west side of the state). The priests at both preach very regularly on the crisis in the church and all of the errors and scandals. At one of the locations, the priest regularly and openly talks against the "reconciliation," but I haven't heard it at the other location. To be fair though, I only make it to Mass there about once every other month, so the priest could be saying the same things at that location as well.
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As far as what is preached from the pulpit, everything is fantastic. We regularly hear about the errors of Vatican II and the New Mass, the traditional roles of men and women, the crisis in the church, etc. This last week, we were told to pray for the superiors, because "reintegration" is likely a bad thing, or at least it would put us in a dangerous situation. We've been having excerpts from +ABL's writings and sermons on the back of our bulletins to support this idea of reintegration not being good.
I attend two different SSPX chapels in my state, as I travel for work to both sides of the state. The difficulties we have come from the devil working on the people, causing personality clashes and whatnot.
You are very fortunate, what state are you in? I'm in AZ and go to OLS although I have been travelling much of late and have missed being there for the last 3 Sundays.
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SanAmbrosi, are you in Minnesota? We have a lot of SSPX chapels here, including two within about an hour of each other.
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So... no suicidal volunteers to talk with Fr. Stafki... and no volunteers to have Fr. Crane watch your children... and no volunteers to ask Fr. Vassal who he recommends to teach your children. Clear thinking. Express yourself with an empty collection plate. That is a message they understand.
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As far as what is preached from the pulpit, everything is fantastic. We regularly hear about the errors of Vatican II and the New Mass, the traditional roles of men and women, the crisis in the church, etc. This last week, we were told to pray for the superiors, because "reintegration" is likely a bad thing, or at least it would put us in a dangerous situation. We've been having excerpts from +ABL's writings and sermons on the back of our bulletins to support this idea of reintegration not being good.
I attend two different SSPX chapels in my state, as I travel for work to both sides of the state. The difficulties we have come from the devil working on the people, causing personality clashes and whatnot.
You are very fortunate, what state are you in? I'm in AZ and go to OLS although I have been travelling much of late and have missed being there for the last 3 Sundays.
If he answers with his location, he draws attention to a good priest.
How long would those great sermons continue?
Remember, their M.O. is "Kill the messenger!"
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I sure wish I had not missed Fr. Stafki's sermon. It's a shame they don't upload the sermons like St. Isidore's does.
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I sure wish I had not missed Fr. Stafki's sermon. It's a shame they don't upload the sermons like St. Isidore's does.
Just imagine all of Fr. Wegner's recent admonishments regarding money and whatnot, and you're close enough.
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So... no suicidal volunteers to talk with Fr. Stafki... and no volunteers to have Fr. Crane watch your children... and no volunteers to ask Fr. Vassal who he recommends to teach your children. Clear thinking. Express yourself with an empty collection plate. That is a message they understand.
:laugh1:
You crack me up.
I'm expressing my displeasure through $$$.
The harder they beat that drum, the faster my wallet snaps shut.
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Get rid of your board games, give funny money.
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Get rid of your board games, give funny money.
Have the ushers and spies put that songbird on report! File a restraining order! Break the seal of the confessional and chastise her in a sermon at Mass (Anyone remember the "Bernadette"** who reported on Ignis Ardens being so victimized at her chapel? She reported that she told the one who follows a seer and he punished her with expulsion and did nothing to the priest who announced her confessed sins.)... then crucify her!
**There were two Bernadettes that were active at the time–one who frequently criticized the cult-like behavior of the SSPX and the one who reported that an SSPX priest had broken the seal of the confessional in a sermon at Mass.
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We have just learned that Father S. , desperate to stop the exodus of older established parishioners is trying a few new approaches
Fr S. has made himself available outside the church after Mass
Asked the ushers to temporarily make themselves scarce and focus on visitors
Suspended sermons about the debt
Placed a statue in the church
Brought back the practice of Blessing religious articles
Increased the times and time priests are available for confession
Collections are down WAY DOWN . We believe that parishioners are protesting with their purse and we applaud their effort
All the changes that have come about in the last month or 2 have been directly tied to the drop in collections
BTW Father S. will be leaving on vacation and pilgrimage soon as soon as he is gone the statue is gone
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We have just learned that Father S. , desperate to stop the exodus of older established parishioners is trying a few new approaches
Suspended sermons about the debt
This is not exactly true, seeing as how Fr. Stafki gave a sermon exactly two Sundays ago that was ALL about our duty to donate and pay down the DEBT. And the other half of the sermon was all about how we should not talk on the internet, and come see him instead - haha.
I was personally very offended by Fr. Stafki making a literal REPEAT of Fr. Wegner's many, many parish-shaming sermons. I don't know what he was thinking!
Talk about how to get off on the wrong foot with the faithful.
People are voting with their wallets, eh?
FANTASTIC!
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We have just learned that Father S. , desperate to stop the exodus of older established parishioners is trying a few new approaches
Suspended sermons about the debt
This is not exactly true, seeing as how Fr. Stafki gave a sermon exactly two Sundays ago that was ALL about our duty to donate and pay down the DEBT. And the other half of the sermon was all about how we should not talk on the internet, and come see him instead - haha.
I was personally very offended by Fr. Stafki making a literal REPEAT of Fr. Wegner's many, many parish-shaming sermons. I don't know what he was thinking!
Talk about how to get off on the wrong foot with the faithful.
People are voting with their wallets, eh?
FANTASTIC!
The history of JSPX (http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-file-on-maximilian-krah.html) reprisals against practicing Catholics justifies mutual suspicion. Unfortunately that mutual suspicion has destroyed parish life at Our Lady of Sorrows.
Thank goodness that parishioners are retaliating with closed wallets and purses.
The Zionist-corrupted Society (http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-file-on-maximilian-krah.html) forced the multi-million-dollar edifice upon parishioners and in a sermon last month even justified interest on a loan of money (usury) by a priest, so let the unrepentant Society justly suffer because of its "Edifice Complex."
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The history of JSPX (http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-file-on-maximilian-krah.html) reprisals against practicing Catholics justifies mutual suspicion. Unfortunately that mutual suspicion has destroyed parish life at Our Lady of Sorrows.
And this is exactly the reason why no one will take Fr. Stafki up on his ofer to "coome talk to him."
They are aware of the reprisals - of people being kicked out of parishes. They're not stupid.
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mw:
And this is exactly the reason why no one will take Fr. Stafki up on his ofer to "coome talk to him."
They are aware of the reprisals - of people being kicked out of parishes. They're not stupid.
Fr. Stafki is a company priest to the very marrow of his bones. Personally, I would not discuss the weather with him. And I disagree that the people are not stupid. They're stupid enough to continue going there, even though the donations may be down.
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mw: And this is exactly the reason why no one will take Fr. Stafki up on his ofer to "coome talk to him."
They are aware of the reprisals - of people being kicked out of parishes. They're not stupid.
Fr. Stafki is a company priest to the very marrow of his bones. Personally, I would not discuss the weather with him. And I disagree that the people are not stupid. They're stupid enough to continue going there, even though the donations may be down.
Probably because he was homeschooled, and then entered the seminary at a very young age -- around 18.
So he doesn't really know anything else.
I don't know how long his family was Traditional, but I do know that he's from Minnesota and there have been several SSPX chapels in Minnesota for many years now. I don't know if he can remember when his family was still Novus Ordo (if they ever were).
I really wouldn't want to be a life-long SSPX member. It's too easy to think that's all there is. I'm glad I grew up in an Independent chapel instead, and only encountered the SSPX as an adult.
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Fr. Stafki is a company priest to the very marrow of his bones.
I had to chuckle at your description...
Yes, someone enlightened me as to his background, so your mention of his bones is now in context. :wink:
I am somewhat disappointed, as I was really hoping we would get a better style of SSPX priest - one with the fire in his belly still intact - but it seems he will just be holding Menzingen's line. At least I don't have to listen to an unintelligible accent. Oh well.
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
On the other hand, if one goes into a chapel looking for something to be outraged by, one will find it without much difficulty.
There are other traditional options in Phoenix.... isn't Father Finnegan still offering Mass? What about Father Cordova?
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There are other traditional options in Phoenix.... isn't Father Finnegan still offering Mass? What about Father Cordova?
The story -- an absolutely true one -- of how a young man a good number of years ago led the police on a wild chase for miles through the Phoenix area only to be shot to death in the parking lot of Our Lady of Sorrows by the police when Father Finnegan was the pastor there is fairly amazing to say the least. The young man was related to a parish employee.
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In defense of Fr. Stafki, and although it's been many years since I attended a chapel where he was pastor, I must say that he always struck me as someone who stove to do the right thing in all situations. I found his sermons most edifying, but of course that was before 2012, and maybe things have changed with him.
He did not, however, have any love for the conciliar church. He wasn't happy when I mentioned to him that I was leaving the SSPX and going to the FSSP parish, and the way he explained why I shouldn't attend the FSSP indicated to me that he believes that there are very serious problems with attending a diocesan Mass, even if its a TLM.
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Meg:
In defense of Fr. Stafki, and although it's been many years since I attended a chapel where he was pastor, I must say that he always struck me as someone who stove to do the right thing in all situations. I found his sermons most edifying, but of course that was before 2012, and maybe things have changed with him.
No one, I think, accuses Fr. S of not wanting to do the right thing. His wanting to do the right thing, (according to his lights), is not at issue. What is at issue is the fact that he was appointed to be the "pastor" of that chapel, a very cynical move on the part of his superiors, IMO. Anyone who knows Stafki has to realize that he is a creature of Menzingen. He will do the SSPX hierarchy's bidding, come what may. Assurances that Father wants to do the right thing does not really go to the question. Why? Because the right thing for him is doing whatever +Fellay , the U.S. District and Menzingen dictate.
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There are other traditional options in Phoenix.... isn't Father Finnegan still offering Mass? What about Father Cordova?
Yes and it is an option many parishioners are taking
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Meg: In defense of Fr. Stafki, and although it's been many years since I attended a chapel where he was pastor, I must say that he always struck me as someone who stove to do the right thing in all situations. I found his sermons most edifying, but of course that was before 2012, and maybe things have changed with him.
No one, I think, accuses Fr. S of not wanting to do the right thing. His wanting to do the right thing, (according to his lights), is not at issue. What is at issue is the fact that he was appointed to be the "pastor" of that chapel, a very cynical move on the part of his superiors, IMO. Anyone who knows Stafki has to realize that he is a creature of Menzingen. He will do the SSPX hierarchy's bidding, come what may. Assurances that Father wants to do the right thing does not really go to the question. Why? Because the right thing for him is doing whatever +Fellay , the U.S. District and Menzingen dictate.
You my be right about Fr. S doing what Bp. Fellay/Menzingen wants him to do, but how can you be so absolutely sure of it? I never got the impression that he was a creature of Menzingen, but that was before 2012. IMO, when someone believes strongly in always trying to do the right thing, it can also mean that that person is loyal and obedient, maybe to a fault.
However, has anyone tried speaking to him on the subject of the problems at the parish? I understand that there may be fear of reprisals for doing so. How about just sending him an email, which could be anonymous? It would need to be charitable, though. I could send one, if you like. Not that I have any better chance than anyone else in changing things for the better.
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I have known Fr. Stafki since he was a little boy. Unfortunately, Hollingsworth really has him pegged. He is a very nice priest who is unfailingly cordial, but he will always choose to obey his superiors' orders and execute those orders with exactitude. He has been trained to prize obedience above all other virtues.
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Meg: In defense of Fr. Stafki, and although it's been many years since I attended a chapel where he was pastor, I must say that he always struck me as someone who stove to do the right thing in all situations. I found his sermons most edifying, but of course that was before 2012, and maybe things have changed with him.
No one, I think, accuses Fr. S of not wanting to do the right thing. His wanting to do the right thing, (according to his lights), is not at issue. What is at issue is the fact that he was appointed to be the "pastor" of that chapel, a very cynical move on the part of his superiors, IMO. Anyone who knows Stafki has to realize that he is a creature of Menzingen. He will do the SSPX hierarchy's bidding, come what may. Assurances that Father wants to do the right thing does not really go to the question. Why? Because the right thing for him is doing whatever +Fellay , the U.S. District and Menzingen dictate.
You my be right about Fr. S doing what Bp. Fellay/Menzingen wants him to do, but how can you be so absolutely sure of it? I never got the impression that he was a creature of Menzingen, but that was before 2012. IMO, when someone believes strongly in always trying to do the right thing, it can also mean that that person is loyal and obedient, maybe to a fault.
However, has anyone tried speaking to him on the subject of the problems at the parish? I understand that there may be fear of reprisals for doing so. How about just sending him an email, which could be anonymous? It would need to be charitable, though. I could send one, if you like. Not that I have any better chance than anyone else in changing things for the better.
During his time in California before going to Phoenix, I did get a chance to get to know Fr. Stafki briefly. A very affable and genuine person. And I won't lie when I say, in my experience, he is probably one of the holiest priests that I know of in the SSPX.
However, he did strike me as somewhat naive to political and current events. He obviously is and was a very busy priest, so I am not surprised that he is not able to keep up to date with all the latest news/gossip. To him, his priestly duties come first. Also as others have pointed out, he strongly believes that the will of his superiors is the will of God.
Given his accommodating nature, I am sure that he will listen to whatever complaints one may have relating to the Phoenix parish. Hopefully he can improve the situation.
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Fr. Stafki's case is classic.
Just because a priest is good, holy and highly beloved by God doesn't mean we should imitate that priest.
Worthy of imitation and full of Sanctifying Grace/charity are NOT the same thing.
For example, there are probably some very holy adults with Downs Syndrome living a holy child's life. But due to the fact that my mind is much more complicated (filled with thoughts and information) than theirs, I can say without hesitation that their path to holiness is NOT God's will for me.
Fr. Stafki believes that the will of God is expressed in the will of HIS superiors, and that it trumps even the cause of truth. He is wrong about this, but since he doesn't know that he is wrong, he is not guilty.
Subjective innocence might get a person to heaven. God judges you based on what you knew and what you understood. But subjective innocence doesn't make you worthy of admiration or imitation.
I'll see your "Fr. Stafki trusts his neo-SSPX superiors" and raise you "Fr X in the Novus Ordo believes that Obedience is where it's at, and that one has to be officially united to the Pope/Conciliar Church to be good." There are plenty of those. I'm sure there are a few good, holy priests in the Novus Ordo. It doesn't make them any less wrong about their priorities.
But for those of us "who know better", joining them is simply not an option. God has given us more, and he expects more of us.
Specifically, we know that Obedience comes under the cardinal virtue of Justice. Whereas Faith, Hope and Charity are Theological virtues which have FIRST RANK. That is why it is not wise or permitted to follow OBEDIENCE when it goes against FAITH. You are chasing after a lesser good (a hundred dollar bill is blowing away) and ignoring a greater good (saving your family from your crashed vehicle, which is on fire).
The fact that a man was confused, emotional, and didn't know what to do MIGHT excuse his behavior chasing after a hundred dollar bill he dropped after getting into an accident. But the fact remains that he SHOULD HAVE saved his family and not worried about the hundred dollar bill blowing away.
That is why we can say that objectively speaking WE ARE CORRECT and everyone who disagrees with us is simply wrong. Truth is objective.
That is also why we can't obey our parents when they command us to do something against charity, like murder someone. Faith/Hope/Charity always come first.
In conclusion, I have nothing against Fr. Stafki personally, so I most certainly don't hate him. I don't need to tear him down. God love him, I hope he saves his soul. But I can't follow his course of action, as it's objectively less than the good I am currently following. If I joined him, it would involve a malicious compromise on my part.
But for me to get to where Fr. Stafki is, would involve something bad: willful ignoring of the truth, and/or brainwashing and/or drugs and/or brain surgery.
I can't un-know what I know. And it's not just my personal opinion, but it's right there in the manuals of Catholic morality. Therefore I can't follow him or any other "holy priest" in the neo-SSPX.
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I'm learning a lot from the last few pages of posts.
I could be wrong, but it's possible that given time, Fr. Stafki (who is not unintelligent, and who strives for holiness, and expects others to do so as well) may see the problems in the SSPX for himself. He evidently doesn't see them now, but that could change, even though he places too much importance on obedience to SSPX leadership. After all, Fr. Pierre Roy's situation was similar, until he woke up, and realized that something was very wrong.
It can be really difficult to try to get Catholics to see that there's a big problem. How can we convince them of it? They may just have to see it for themselves, hopefully.
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I'm learning a lot from the last few pages of posts.
I could be wrong, but it's possible that given time, Fr. Stafki (who is not unintelligent, and who strives for holiness, and expects others to do so as well) may see the problems in the SSPX for himself. He evidently doesn't see them now, but that could change, even though he places too much importance on obedience to SSPX leadership. After all, Fr. Pierre Roy's situation was similar, until he woke up, and realized that something was very wrong.
It can be really difficult to try to get Catholics to see that there's a big problem. How can we convince them of it? They may just have to see it for themselves, hopefully.
1. There are highly intelligent men who apparently believe in atheistic evolution -- that the whole ordered universe came from nothing, with no Creator. So intelligence itself isn't a guarantee of anything.
2. I agree with you on this one point: that we should/must hold out hope for Fr. Stafki to "see the light" at some point, if we are giving him the benefit of the doubt at all.
Either he
A) sees it already and made his (malicious) choice, or
B) is innocent, but doesn't see the problem yet.
You really only have those 2 options.
For Bishop Fellay, I'm choosing A). I would make the same choice for certain other SSPX priests who are hostile to the Resistance, being willing to use the Devil's handbook when fighting them. Sadly, I must also place Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer in this category.
Our Lord said, "By their fruits you shall know them."
But for those priests who haven't shown evidence of malice (like Fr. Stafki), the virtue of Charity inclines me to choose B). To assume he is innocent, hold out hope for him, and pray that he sees the light.
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As a side note, I believe it is a fault/weakness (but not a sin) when a priest knows nothing of the World.
A secular priest (defined as a priest who works in a parish, rather than a Religious priest who offers only private Masses in his monastery or Friary) needs to work with the people, and help them live sanctified Catholic lives in the World.
A priest has to help his flock fight the World. But how can you fight, much less teach others to fight, that which you don't know?
Well, for the naive priest, he is more isolated from the world. He can keep his soul alive (in Sanctifying Grace) without needing to know how to deal with non-Catholic co-workers. But what about your flock, who DO need to struggle more directly with the World? The laymen in your charge can't just retreat to their Priory and recharge like the priests do.
Would you receive self-defense training from a man who had never been in a fight? How can he teach you defense moves and techniques, if the man has no idea how real people are likely to attack you?
That is a major principle that I feel very strongly about: ignorance is NOT a virtue.
I'll take the priest who knows what trends are going on in the world, who is up-to-date on his knowledge of the World, the better to fight it. He should know the World intimately, like a psychologist or doctor knows his patient. It has nothing to do with being immersed in the world, loving it, or being part of it.
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I'm learning a lot from the last few pages of posts.
I could be wrong, but it's possible that given time, Fr. Stafki (who is not unintelligent, and who strives for holiness, and expects others to do so as well) may see the problems in the SSPX for himself. He evidently doesn't see them now, but that could change, even though he places too much importance on obedience to SSPX leadership. After all, Fr. Pierre Roy's situation was similar, until he woke up, and realized that something was very wrong.
It can be really difficult to try to get Catholics to see that there's a big problem. How can we convince them of it? They may just have to see it for themselves, hopefully.
1. There are highly intelligent men who apparently believe in atheistic evolution -- that the whole ordered universe came from nothing, with no Creator. So intelligence itself isn't a guarantee of anything.
2. I agree with you on this one point: that we should/must hold out hope for Fr. Stafki to "see the light" at some point, if we are giving him the benefit of the doubt at all.
Either he
A) sees it already and made his (malicious) choice, or
B) is innocent, but doesn't see the problem yet.
You really only have those 2 options.
For Bishop Fellay, I'm choosing A). I would make the same choice for certain other SSPX priests who are hostile to the Resistance, being willing to use the Devil's handbook when fighting them. Sadly, I must also place Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer in this category.
Our Lord said, "By their fruits you shall know them."
But for those priests who haven't shown evidence of malice (like Fr. Stafki), the virtue of Charity inclines me to choose B). To assume he is innocent, hold out hope for him, and pray that he sees the light.
Makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
However, in you subsequent post after this one, describing how a priest needs to know about the world in order to lead his flock, I think that there's truth to it, but how does it differ from, say, Protestants and progressive Catholics who believe that priests should be able to marry in order to relate to their flock (just to cite one example).
Is the internet really the best way to learn about the world? How did priests learn about the world before the internet existed? You know a lot more about the Faith than I do (since I'm a convert). But these are questions that seem important. Thanks.
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Johnfollower:
During his time in California before going to Phoenix, I did get a chance to get to know Fr. Stafki briefly. A very affable and genuine person. And I won't lie when I say, in my experience, he is probably one of the holiest priests that I know of in the SSPX.
Again, you make a point, which, IMO, is totally irrelevant. If, indeed, Father is one of the Society's "holiest priests," It will in no way affect the situation on the ground in Phoenix. Stafki works for some very unholy superiors, IMO, the chief of whom is Bp Fellay. He will follow their lead and obey their instructions to the letter. He may be very "affable" and "genuine," as you say, but his handlers are not. Bp. Williamson describes Bp Fellay in a word: He is a "rat." That is a quote.
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I have known Fr. Stafki since he was a little boy. Unfortunately, Hollingsworth really has him pegged. He is a very nice priest who is unfailingly cordial, but he will always choose to obey his superiors' orders and execute those orders with exactitude. He has been trained to prize obedience above all other virtues.
I am sure Fr. Stafki really strives to do the right thing. I have no other impression in that regard.
However, the problem with the first impression he made upon the parish in his first sermon is one of utter tone-deafness.
We had been being lectured FOR MONTHS every Sunday by Fr. Wegner to "pay our debt" and stop being such "slobs" and "pigs, while being encouraged to engage in Stasi-like behavior and "report our fellow parishioners to the priests."
So, for Fr. Stafki to show up and immediately give his opening sermon on why we all need to GIVE THEM MORE MONEY - when our money has been misspent - and why we should NOT TALK ON THE INTERNET, but go talk to him instead, seems like he was taking MARCHING ORDERS from someone on what to say in his introduction. Now, I don't know WHO exactly is giving the marching orders, but I think it is safe to assume it is his District Superior, Fr. Wegner. Who apparently is totally tone-deaf.
Apparently as tone-deaf as Bp. Fellay, who also ignores the faithful WHO DO NOT WANT A DEAL WITH ROME - but keeps on negotiating anyway!
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...
...ignorance is NOT a virtue. …
...and studied willful ignorance is an outright vice.
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Why would one attend a chapel that they seem to HATE going to? I am having a hard time getting it. If I was regularly scandalized, I'd simply leave.
On the other hand, if one goes into a chapel looking for something to be outraged by, one will find it without much difficulty.
Your question reminds me of talking with "Jews." If you point out even very-well-docuмented heinous acts by "Jews," before you finish your sentence, they are already calling you a hater. In their culture, heinous crimes against humanity is not "hate," but mentioning the crimes or who committed the heinous crimes is "hate." Have you inculturated that behavioral pattern?
I have stopped voting because I refuse to vote for "the lesser of two evils." In that vein, maybe my entire family should stop receiving the sacraments because of glaring lapses that several readers here have noted?
Do you advise that plan?
Just go to Father Finnegan's Mass.
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Apparently as tone-deaf as Bp. Fellay, who also ignores the faithful WHO DO NOT WANT A DEAL WITH ROME - but keeps on negotiating anyway!
I wonder if some sort of "cultural misunderstanding" is going on between many SSPX parishioners (and some clergy) and the SSPX authorities. The society is not an political or social American organization. The SSPX is not a direct democracy. Because some parishioners have agendas that are different from the SSPX leadership, folks are getting bent out of shape.
The parish building belongs to the Society. Like someone already said, you all in Phoenix have many independent chapels to attend. No one is forcing you to remain members of OLS.
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Apparently as tone-deaf as Bp. Fellay, who also ignores the faithful WHO DO NOT WANT A DEAL WITH ROME - but keeps on negotiating anyway!
I wonder if some sort of "cultural misunderstanding" is going on between many SSPX parishioners (and some clergy) and the SSPX authorities. The society is not an political or social American organization. The SSPX is not a direct democracy. Because some parishioners have agendas that are different from the SSPX leadership, folks are getting bent out of shape.
The parish building belongs to the Society. Like someone already said, you all in Phoenix have many independent chapels to attend. No one is forcing you to remain members of OLS.
While I agree completely that factually the Society is a priestly order, which shouldn't have much of anything to do with the faithful, per se, but the problem that is in REALITY the Society is funded solely by the Faithful.
Therefore, we don't own that building, but we sure as heck paid for it.
I think that entitles the attendees to some level of consideration in their opinion about whether or not we want to be a part of the entirely corrupt and perverse Novus Ordo.
Don't you agree?
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Therefore, we don't own that building, but we sure as heck paid for it.
I think that entitles the attendees to some level of consideration in their opinion about whether or not we want to be a part of the entirely corrupt and perverse Novus Ordo.
Don't you agree?
I don't agree.
We owe our priests and pastor's obedience. Now that is very offensive to the American ear; I understand that, I'm an American too. But we have to take off our "secular hat" and be Roman Catholic.
Now if the priests do something sinful and encourage the flock to do likewise, we aren't obliged to follow them anymore. If you believe that is the case, for the sake of your ever lasting soul, you should attend mass elsewhere.
You think there should be a referendum or petition? Maybe a committee formed to craft a proposition that would then be put to a vote among all registered parishioners who have donated a certain amount of money? Perhaps elect a vestry or board of directors? That's how most Protestants run their churches.
When you contribute to a building fund, general parish support, or what have you, it is "with no strings attached." Most of us know that. That money goes to a supranational organization, head quartered in Switzerland.
And, more importantly, that's the legal reality.
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...We owe our priests and pastor's obedience. Now that is very offensive to the American ear; I understand that, I'm an American too. But we have to take off our "secular hat" and be Roman Catholic....
Rubbish. We owe obedience to GOD, not men.
Acts Of Apostles 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.
We took no vow of obedience to Bp. Fellay or his re-branded anti-society.
We are bound to resist Bp. Fellay's efforts and the efforts of his cabal to draw us into clericalism, Zionism, usury, and modernism.
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When you contribute to a building fund, general parish support, or what have you, it is "with no strings attached." Most of us know that. That money goes to a supranational organization, head quartered in Switzerland.
And, more importantly, that's the legal reality.
I am well aware of the reality.
What you seem to have forgotten is that what is playing out now in the SSPX is a micro-version of what happened over the entire Church in the 1960's.
The Church will have the real estate (built off our blood, sweat, and tears) and we will have the Faith.
The same is happening in the SSPX now. They will have the real estate, and depending upon the outcome of +Fellay's actions, the faithful may have nothing but the Faith left to them.
So, it's back to hotel conference rooms and school gymnasiums, I guess, if +Fellay chooses poorly.
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When you contribute to a building fund, general parish support, or what have you, it is "with no strings attached." Most of us know that. That money goes to a supranational organization, head quartered in Switzerland.
And, more importantly, that's the legal reality.
I am well aware of the reality.
What you seem to have forgotten is that what is playing out now in the SSPX is a micro-version of what happened over the entire Church in the 1960's.
The Church will have the real estate (built off our blood, sweat, and tears) and we will have the Faith.
The same is happening in the SSPX now. They will have the real estate, and depending upon the outcome of +Fellay's actions, the faithful may have nothing but the Faith left to them.
So, it's back to hotel conference rooms and school gymnasiums, I guess, if +Fellay chooses poorly.
I agree, except for one detail --
The SSPX started out in hotel rooms and garages, and eventually saved up enough resources to become what it is today.
So what I'd like to add is: those pioneers, those brave souls who BEGAN THE PROCESS 1-3 years ago, are going to be that much further ahead.
In Houston they already have a chapel. In the San Antonio area, we have a dedicated building which pews and a wide array of equipment. We're about to build a wooden altar next.
We'll be better off than many other places because we got on board on the ground floor of the Resistance. I'm sure a similar thing happened in the 1970's. Those places who were quick to organize, quick to leave the Novus Ordo, etc. got the first pick of the faithful priests who refused the Novus Ordo.
On the one hand, I realize that we're blessed/fortunate/lucky to have two very good priests willing to drive out and say Mass for us weekly. I don't deny that truth.
But it's also true that I corresponded with God's grace by:
A) being extremely vocal at my SSPX chapel about the Resistance from May 2012 onwards, risking expulsion
B) along with my wife, we got kicked out of our volunteer positions in choir and accounting
C) did lots of promoting/recruiting for the Resistance and Fr. Pfeiffer, at the cost of my own reputation there. This included in-person talking in the parish hall, as well as sending out e-mail invites to everyone I could get an e-mail address for.
D) Gave up most of a good-sized warehouse building that we had just built for my family's own storage needs. (Our house has neither garage, nor basement, nor attic, nor any empty rooms for storage) The 30x40 concrete slab alone cost $11,000.
E) But I didn't just give up the building and get weekly Mass in the same move. That would have been easy: I had to allocate the space and then WAIT for literally years before we got a priest here. Fr. Pfeiffer only came here 3 times, and we had absolutely nothing for a whole year. I was very vocal online about this. I was a squeaky wheel. The cause of the Resistance was my main "passion" which I promoted on CathInfo in countless ways. If I hadn't been the owner of CathInfo, I still would have started a blog or something, and/or post on existing Trad fora.
I have a personal philosophy which says that "Winners make their own luck." To a certain extent, a lot of things are outside your control. But what you CAN do is increase your chances. Do everything you can do, and leave the rest to God. Make yourself more attractive than the other options. Give yourself as many "edges" as possible over your competition. Each thing you do improves your chances, until you end up getting "lucky" (in the eyes of others).
This might come across as boasting, but I'm just stating these facts as simple facts. Please feel free to draw your own conclusions.
Everything I listed A through E is absolutely true. Nothing anyone says here is going to magically turn what I did (above) into a lie. It all happened. Now maybe it all didn't count for anything; maybe I could have jumped rope 100 times instead, and I'd still have a fully-equipped chapel on my property with weekly Mass today. Maybe it was just meant to be.
But I doubt it.
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We Phoenicians need to make quite certain that no more of the Post Falls sodomite sewage ends up in our laps. We already have Fr. Crane who ignored the warnings about Slinkier.
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CORRECTION OF THE ABOVE POST: To rub salt in our wounds, Fr. Crane's sermon in Phoenix today was about how parents should be putting their children in Society schools. What gall! Fr. Crane is among the ones who "allegedly" turned a deaf ear when students and parents warned him about the "camp counselor" pederast Sloniker.
Anyone who has children in a Society school needs to be vigilant and to teach their children to flee shrieking from any sɛҳuąƖ overtures and to immediately report the problem to mom and dad, who, in turn, should call the police, completely bypassing any liars and enablers.
Sad to say, we cannot trust the Society denials and reassurances. They have earned our mistrust.
On a happier note, TWO confessionals were used today and all penitents were seen in time for Holy Communion. Let's hold our breath that that will continue.
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CORRECTION OF THE ABOVE POST: To rub salt in our wounds, Fr. Crane's sermon in Phoenix today was about how parents should be putting their children in Society schools. What gall! Fr. Crane is among the ones who "allegedly" turned a deaf ear when students and parents warned him about the "camp counselor" pederast Sloniker.
I don't see anything about Fr. Crane that I would qualify as "allegedly" in this report on the matter:
One alleged victim told a detective that Sloniker took him on a long trip in his truck through seven Western states when the boy was between 10 and 15 years old. Sloniker sɛҳuąƖly assaulted him repeatedly during the journey, the boy stated.
Another boy said he spent one summer at the Latah farm when he was about 12. Sloniker’s attention escalated to nightly sɛҳuąƖ abuse, and Sloniker also hit him with a whip, he told police.
Several of those interviewed said they reported their concerns to the priests at Immaculate Conception Church. The boy who said he was whipped by Sloniker said he shared that with Father Patrick Crane. He also told the priest that Sloniker made him strip naked.
Crane, who now is with another Society of Saint Pius X church – Our Lady of Sorrows in Phoenix – was interviewed by a detective Sept. 22. He said Sloniker worked with the church camp from 2003 to 2006 and that he did not have any issues with him.
When the detective shared that one of the alleged victims said he had told Crane about Sloniker whipping him, “Crane said he remembers part of it, but it was mostly because (the boy) did not want to attend the camp.”
Crane added that he remembers not asking Sloniker back after that, and also told the detective that if something had been brought forward, he would have said something “because this was during the time the church was being looked into for other abuse allegations across America,” the detective wrote.
I think Fr. Crane has a lot to answer for and a formal meeting should be held on the matter with our school's parents and Fr. Stafki.
It is outrageous that he is in our parish under these circuмstances.
Sloniker plead guilty and is going to be sentenced in July:
A Coeur d’Alene long-haul truck driver pleaded guilty Wednesday to molesting seven boys between the ages of 8 and 14.
Kevin Gerard Sloniker faces a prison term of up to seven consecutive life sentences when he is sentenced July 13.
He accepted a plea deal in a hearing before 1st District Judge Cynthia Meyer. Sloniker, 30, answered “guilty” as Meyer read each of the seven counts. He then described his “hand to genital” contact with each of the victims.
Sloniker met and befriended boys in his role as a youth camp counselor at Immaculate Conception Church in Post Falls, according to investigators. The church is part of the Society of Saint Pius X, a traditionalist group with no canonical standing in the Roman Catholic Church.
One boy said he attended the church’s Immaculate Conception Academy, and that Sloniker was involved with a group of boys who attended the K-12 school in Post Falls. Sloniker also taught boys how to be altar boys through the Guild of St. Stephen, an international organization of altar servers, investigators learned.
Witnesses told investigators Sloniker liked to spend time with kids much younger than him and would buy them lavish gifts. One boy told a detective Sloniker took him on a long trip in his truck through seven states and sɛҳuąƖly assaulted him repeatedly during the journey.
Some parents told police they knew of or strongly suspected the abuse and advised others to keep their kids away from Sloniker. In some cases Sloniker lived for a time with the families of his alleged victims.
The charges stem from investigations by the Coeur d’Alene and Post Falls police departments. Sloniker was arrested on a warrant Sept. 14 in Menomonie, Wisconsin, and extradited to Kootenai County, where he was booked into jail Oct. 9.
In a police interview, Sloniker said he wanted help for an addiction to touching young boys, a police detective said in court filings.
In exchange for the guilty plea, the Kootenai County Prosecuting Attorney’s Office agreed not to pursue other charges, including production of child pornography charges for photos Sloniker allegedly made of two of the boys.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/mar/09/idaho-truck-driver-pleads-guilty-to-molesting-7-bo/
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News station video here:
http://www.kxly.com/news/north-idaho-news/post-falls-man-admits-abusing-boys-for-last-decade/36083196
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SNAP is calling for Fr. Crane's suspension by Bp. Olmsted.
I wonder how that would work, exactly.... :facepalm:
http://www.snapnetwork.org/az_victims_ask_phoenix_bishop_to_help_re_predator
A Phoenix priest is accused of ignoring reports that a now-admitted child molester made a boy strip naked and whipped him.
Fr. Patrick Crane is with Our Lady of Sorrows in Phoenix. Last month, he was interviewed by a detective because he worked for three years - from 2003 to 2006 – with Kevin Sloniker, who faces recent child sex charges in Washington and Idaho. Crane said he remembers part of the conversation with the boy.
For the safety of kids, we call on Phoenix Bishop Thomas Olmstead to suspend Fr. Crane.
And we call on Idaho Bishop Peter F. Christensen and Spokane Bishop Thomas Daly to use church websites, parish bulletins, pulpit announcements and personal appeals to reach out to others who may have seen, suspected or suffered crimes by Sloniker.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/oct/26/coeur-dalene-man-jailed-on-1-million-bond-suspecte/
Sloniker was at Immaculate Conception Church in Post Falls. He’s part of an arch-conservative Catholic group called the Society of St. Pius X. He’s not the first man with that group to face abuse allegations:
http://www.snapnetwork.org/exclusive_after_us_sex_abuse_scandals_an_accused_priest_rises_again_in_paraguay
Sloniker was recently arrested on abuse charges and may face more charges since he took boys across state lines.
All too often, when church staff and volunteers are arrested on child sex charges, bishops do nothing. All too often, corrupt church officials refuse to act and thus essentially protect criminals and endanger children. And all too often, secular officials with the power and duty to safeguard society’s most vulnerable pursue only church staff who commit abuse and ignore church staff who conceal abuse.
Christensen, Daly and hundreds of other church members and employees in northern Idaho and eastern Washington have a moral and civic duty to help law enforcement investigate and prosecute Sloniker. They’ll be tempted, of course, to do nothing. But that’s wrong. And their inaction might help enable Sloniker to exploit legal technicalities and escape punishment and hurt more kids.
And Phoenix Catholic officials will be tempted to do nothing about Fr. Crane. That too is wrong. Their inaction might well encourage other clerics to ignore or conceal known or suspected child sex crimes by their colleagues.
So we hope that anyone who saw, suspected or suffered Sloniker’s crimes will speak up, call police, protect kids, expose wrongdoers, deter cover ups and start healing. We hope Phoenix Catholic officials will suspend Fr. Crane.
And we hope that Idaho and Washington Catholic officials will ignore their defense lawyers, show real courage, and aggressively reach out to anyone with information or suspicions about Sloniker that might help law enforcement keep him away from kids for a long time.
(SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, is the world’s oldest and largest support group for clergy abuse victims. SNAP was founded in 1988 and has more than 20,000 members. Despite the word “priest” in our title, we have members who were molested by religious figures of all denominations, including nuns, rabbis, bishops, and Protestant ministers. Our website is SNAPnetwork.org)
Contact - David Clohessy (314-566-9790 cell, davidgclohessy@gmail.com, SNAPclohessy@aol.com), Barbara Dorris (314-503-0003 cell, bdorris@SNAPnetwork.org), Barbara Blaine(312-399-4747, bblaine@snapnetwork.org)
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FIRST let us say
We are of no opinion about the question of Rome or the SSPX outside of how it pertains to OLOS
Back to the topic at hand
we heard that Father S has put forward proposals about the windows to district in hopes that will inspire people to start donating again
also one of our "group" was standing in ear shot as an usher told Br.D there had been questions about the removal of the Sacred Heart statue "what did you tell them ?" ask Br.D It was only there temperately was the reply "tell them there will be statues when they pay for the side altars"
"Can't say that but it would nice to put them in their place" said the usher then they both had a light laugh
Our place ??
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The windows had already been paid for by donors. Where is that money?
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SNAP is calling for Fr. Crane's suspension by Bp. Olmsted.
I wonder how that would work, exactly.... :facepalm:
That's right, Olmstead has no authority over SSPX priests.
For everyone's sake, including his, I think Fr. Crane should be transferred to some administrative position.
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SNAP is calling for Fr. Crane's suspension by Bp. Olmsted.
I wonder how that would work, exactly.... :facepalm:
That's right, Olmstead has no authority over SSPX priests.
For everyone's sake, including his, I think Fr. Crane should be transferred to some administrative position.
...AND at a location where there are NO children.
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SNAP is calling for Fr. Crane's suspension by Bp. Olmsted.
That's funny.
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We as a group have decided to stop posting
We have come to the realization that nothing is going to change and by bringing up the faults of that half built modernist spectacle we are vilified instead of the lying blackmailers who built it
We started posting here in an attempt to coordinate concrete solutions but know see that we are stuck with that insult to our Sorrowful Mother because not enough people will stand up ....Oh not in person , not openly but right here on this forum.We know many many people from OLOS read this forum and most agree with everything said here...well where are you ? why have you not posted your support and added your take on what is going on ? ....exactly
We are still going to withhold the majority of our donations and other forms of support
We will not contribute so long as we are lied to, blackmailed and treated like dirt and plead with other parishioners to join in our silent protest
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We as a group have decided to stop posting
We have come to the realization that nothing is going to change and by bringing up the faults of that half built modernist spectacle we are vilified instead of the lying blackmailers who built it
We started posting here in an attempt to coordinate concrete solutions but know see that we are stuck with that insult to our Sorrowful Mother because not enough people will stand up ....Oh not in person , not openly but right here on this forum.We know many many people from OLOS read this forum and most agree with everything said here...well where are you ? why have you not posted your support and added your take on what is going on ? ....exactly
We are still going to withhold the majority of our donations and other forms of support
We will not contribute so long as we are lied to, blackmailed and treated like dirt and plead with other parishioners to join in our silent protest
Bad timing methinks to withdraw when hard questions are being asked from many quarters.
We have a series of 4 SSPX child sex scandals that have justly earned the attention of concerned parents and we have the apparent misappropriation of funds for the stained glass windows for the new church. Donors' money was earmarked specifically for stained glass windows. Where is that money?
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Phx:
We are still going to withhold the majority of our donations and other forms of support
We will not contribute so long as we are lied to, blackmailed and treated like dirt and plead with other parishioners to join in our silent protest
I may be naive, or insensitive, or ignorant, or unaware, or just plain not in the proper know.... but why is it that you are going to withhold only the "majority" of your donations and support? Why don't you simply leave the parish altogether?
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We as a group have decided to stop posting
We have come to the realization that nothing is going to change and by bringing up the faults of that half built modernist spectacle we are vilified instead of the lying blackmailers who built it
We started posting here in an attempt to coordinate concrete solutions but know see that we are stuck with that insult to our Sorrowful Mother because not enough people will stand up ....Oh not in person , not openly but right here on this forum.We know many many people from OLOS read this forum and most agree with everything said here...well where are you ? why have you not posted your support and added your take on what is going on ? ....exactly
We are still going to withhold the majority of our donations and other forms of support
We will not contribute so long as we are lied to, blackmailed and treated like dirt and plead with other parishioners to join in our silent protest
"Attempt to coordinate?"
I pm'ed you and got no response!
I withhold my donations for the same reasons as you, but nobody is trying to coordinate.
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Donors' money was earmarked specifically for stained glass windows. Where is that money?
It was used for other purposes.
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Donors' money was earmarked specifically for stained glass windows. Where is that money?
It was used for other purposes.
misappropriation of funds
Who had custody of that money?
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Donors' money was earmarked specifically for stained glass windows. Where is that money?
It was used for other purposes.
misappropriation of funds
Who had custody of that money?
Perhaps this is not common knowledge, but the SSPX District Office controls all of the money of all of its chapels in the U.S. They are like a central bank and the chapels are the branches. Once you give money to the SSPX you have no control over how it is used. This applies even to people who bequeath money in their will for a specific purpose. Once that money goes over to the SSPX they will use it as they see fit.
The individual priors have no control over how money is distributed either. They must seek permission from the District for large expenditures (like stained glass windows) or new a/c, or remodeling, etc. Even if the money is there to be used; they are not free to use it without permission. If the District needs the money that is in the priory bank account they have complete access to it. As a parishioner you will never know how much money your chapel has lost to the District or has been redistributed to another chapel by the District Office. Once everything became computerized a few years ago all that's required is the press of a button to transfer the money. That's the reality of how it works.
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These parishioners should get together to see that that children are protected.
Instead, they have novus ordo mentality of denial, silence and indifference.
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We as a group have decided to stop posting
We have come to the realization that nothing is going to change and by bringing up the faults of that half built modernist spectacle we are vilified instead of the lying blackmailers who built it
We started posting here in an attempt to coordinate concrete solutions but know see that we are stuck with that insult to our Sorrowful Mother because not enough people will stand up ....Oh not in person , not openly but right here on this forum.We know many many people from OLOS read this forum and most agree with everything said here...well where are you ? why have you not posted your support and added your take on what is going on ? ....exactly
We are still going to withhold the majority of our donations and other forms of support
We will not contribute so long as we are lied to, blackmailed and treated like dirt and plead with other parishioners to join in our silent protest
Bad timing methinks to withdraw when hard questions are being asked from many quarters.
We have a series of 4 SSPX child sex scandals that have justly earned the attention of concerned parents and we have the apparent misappropriation of funds for the stained glass windows for the new church. Donors' money was earmarked specifically for stained glass windows. Where is that money?
Might be going to lawyers, courts, victims...
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Perhaps this is not common knowledge, but the SSPX District Office controls all of the money of all of its chapels in the U.S. They are like a central bank and the chapels are the branches. Once you give money to the SSPX you have no control over how it is used.
Yes, I think that is exactly what the district office is, as you say. It's a central bank and the chapels are branches- kind of a mini Federal Reserve system headquartered in Kansas, while overseeing member banks, but sans the 12 major regional banks.
I have only one piece of advice for sspxers: Get the hell out of it while you can!!!
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I don't know how many of you received the last SSPX newsletter entitled: "The apostolate behind the apostolate". (What a misnomer that is!) It is most informative about the overall control over all of the chapels which the District now has. It is even more far reaching than I thought it was. Quoting from the newsletter:
"The district office in Kansas City is more like a central command (read control) center. Its clerical and lay staff work in a variety of departments to serve priories, schools, clergy, and the faithful, providing the behind-the-scenes support that allows priests to spend more time ministering to spiritual needs and gives them abilities beyond their years in the practical realm."
It goes on: "Running a chapel or a school is much like running a small business....Imagine juggling all of that when you are just out of school, have no experience....By providing these young priests with support and guidance on various business issues -- such as accounting, travel, construction, zoning, insurance, government regulations, fund raising, human resources, and legal matters -- the priest are enabled to focus their energies on their supernatural priestly duties." And they learn nothing about how to manage a parish in the process. Just leave it all up to the District to make all the decisions for the priory.
So, if anyone still wonders why young priests are being placed in positions of authority beyond their years, while the older more experienced ones are passed over, this is how they are doing it. They don't want priests who are capable of running a priory and who don't need a nursemaid in the District Office. Why do priests remain under such blatant disrespect for their abilities?
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".... the priests are enabled to focus their energies on their supernatural priestly duties."...
Thank goodness for that at Our Lady of Sorrows in Phoenix!
5 priests in residence struggle to provide approximately 17 seconds scheduled confession time per week per family.
Poor babies! Imagine how little time for "supernatural priestly duties" if they did not have such heavy logistical (read "control freak") support to allow their sports and recreation time.
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I don't know how many of you received the last SSPX newsletter entitled: "The apostolate behind the apostolate". (What a misnomer that is!) It is most informative about the overall control over all of the chapels which the District now has. It is even more far reaching than I thought it was. Quoting from the newsletter:
"The district office in Kansas City is more like a central command (read control) center. Its clerical and lay staff work in a variety of departments to serve priories, schools, clergy, and the faithful, providing the behind-the-scenes support that allows priests to spend more time ministering to spiritual needs and gives them abilities beyond their years in the practical realm."
It goes on: "Running a chapel or a school is much like running a small business....Imagine juggling all of that when you are just out of school, have no experience....By providing these young priests with support and guidance on various business issues -- such as accounting, travel, construction, zoning, insurance, government regulations, fund raising, human resources, and legal matters -- the priest are enabled to focus their energies on their supernatural priestly duties." And they learn nothing about how to manage a parish in the process. Just leave it all up to the District to make all the decisions for the priory.
So, if anyone still wonders why young priests are being placed in positions of authority beyond their years, while the older more experienced ones are passed over, this is how they are doing it. They don't want priests who are capable of running a priory and who don't need a nursemaid in the District Office. Why do priests remain under such blatant disrespect for their abilities?
The above post causes me to wonder if the average Novus Ordo parish has less control over it by the diocesan authorities than the average SSPX chapel has from the SSPX district offices. Aren't pastors supposed to have most of the control over their parish (chapel)? That seems like the traditional way to do things. Maybe I'm wrong.
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The above post causes me to wonder if the average Novus Ordo parish has less control over it by the diocesan authorities than the average SSPX chapel has from the SSPX district offices. Aren't pastors supposed to have most of the control over their parish (chapel)? That seems like the traditional way to do things. Maybe I'm wrong.
I can speak to the Catholic parishes before Vat II. Each parish had an older priest who knew from the experience of his years how to take care of his parish. The younger priests came in as assistants to learn under his tutelage. In time they were ready to be given the responsibility of their own parish. Yes, they had primary control. They often stayed as pastor for many years.
The SSPX in the beginning didn't have many priests and none that were older. The District was in its infancy, each chapel was small, and the priest often relied on lay people to help to keep the books. So the few priories that existed (and the missions they served) were under the control of the priest in charge. The micro-managers at the District Office came much later as the Society grew and prospered. Little by little it has evolved into a full-blown bureaucratic, totalitarian "apostolate". It's perfect for the passive, don't bother me too much, kind of priest we're seeing more and more often. If the priest is a doer, one who wants the responsibilites that come with running a parish, and is not happy with spiritual mediocrity, then there will be problems for him at the District level. The chapel may love him but his superiors will not. Here I am not speaking of blatantly disobedient and rebellious priests. I am speaking of very capable, intelligent and respected priests who will be (have been) treated with contempt because they possess all of those qualities that no longer fit this new business model of the SSPX.
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The SSPX in the beginning didn't have many priests and none that were older. The District was in its infancy, each chapel was small, and the priest often relied on lay people to help to keep the books. So the few priories that existed (and the missions they served) were under the control of the priest in charge. The micro-managers at the District Office came much later as the Society grew and prospered. Little by little it has evolved into a full-blown bureaucratic, totalitarian "apostolate". It's perfect for the passive, don't bother me too much, kind of priest we're seeing more and more often. If the priest is a doer, one who wants the responsibilites that come with running a parish, and is not happy with spiritual mediocrity, then there will be problems for him at the District level. The chapel may love him but his superiors will not. Here I am not speaking of blatantly disobedient and rebellious priests. I am speaking of very capable, intelligent and respected priests who will be (have been) treated with contempt because they possess all of those qualities that no longer fit this new business model of the SSPX.
And this is PRECISELY the reason why the District (and a disgruntled group of parishioners) ran Fr. Pfeiffer out of PHX in 2005.
He was the best priest Phoenix ever had and the place has never been the same since he left.
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...
The above post causes me to wonder if the average Novus Ordo parish has less control over it by the diocesan authorities than the average SSPX chapel has from the SSPX district offices. Aren't pastors supposed to have most of the control over their parish (chapel)? That seems like the traditional way to do things. Maybe I'm wrong.
From news reports over the years, I see a variety of situations:
(1) pastor controls
(2) parish council controls
(3) diocese controls
(4) founders control (e.g., ethnic & immigrant parishes)
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...
The above post causes me to wonder if the average Novus Ordo parish has less control over it by the diocesan authorities than the average SSPX chapel has from the SSPX district offices. Aren't pastors supposed to have most of the control over their parish (chapel)? That seems like the traditional way to do things. Maybe I'm wrong.
From news reports over the years, I see a variety of situations:
(1) pastor controls
(2) parish council controls
(3) diocese controls
(4) founders control (e.g., ethnic & immigrant parishes)
The parish councils came in after Vat II. Each parish was required to have one whether the pastor agreed to it or not. It diminished the role of the pastor as he could be out voted by the parish council. As often happens, the lay people let their position go to their head which created new headaches for the pastor who is directly responsible for the souls within the boundaries of his parish. Those parish councils were the beginning of the end of the pastor as sole (or soul) authority.
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And this is PRECISELY the reason why the District (and a disgruntled group of parishioners) ran Fr. Pfeiffer out of PHX in 2005.
He was the best priest Phoenix ever had and the place has never been the same since he left.
Really!!? Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer, or his brother Tim? If you're talking about Fr. Joe, then all I have to say is "What happened to the man?"
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And this is PRECISELY the reason why the District (and a disgruntled group of parishioners) ran Fr. Pfeiffer out of PHX in 2005.
He was the best priest Phoenix ever had and the place has never been the same since he left.
Really!!? Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer, or his brother Tim? If you're talking about Fr. Joe, then all I have to say is "What happened to the man?"
What are you talking about?? You sound like you don't know him at all. Have you ever been in a parish of his? If not, then you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
There are very few brave priests like Fr. Pfeiffer and Phoenix has had nothing but milquetoasts ever since.
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MW2016:
I am confused, you seem to know exactly what happened when father Pfeiffer was here as a priest. Were you here the entire time that he was a priest here? I was. No one ran him out of Phoenix as far as I am concerned. I think that before you make such a statement that maybe you should get all of you facts straight. Back then I happened to like Father Pfeiffer myself. Yet a lot of stuff has happened since then. He was not run out of town. In fact he was well liked and respected. I am sorry that he got involved with certain people and I have always felt that these relationships have hurt him. He also had a problem with financial issues and was not very good at budgeting the parish money. Yet he was still a good priest. Please unless you were here at that time then you do not have the right to speak about his time spent here and what he did or what went on. If you were here the entire time, then feel free to express your opinion on what went on.
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And this is PRECISELY the reason why the District (and a disgruntled group of parishioners) ran Fr. Pfeiffer out of PHX in 2005.
He was the best priest Phoenix ever had and the place has never been the same since he left.
Really!!? Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer, or his brother Tim? If you're talking about Fr. Joe, then all I have to say is "What happened to the man?"
Says a lot about Phoenix :rolleyes:
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".... the priests are enabled to focus their energies on their supernatural priestly duties."...
Thank goodness for that at Our Lady of Sorrows in Phoenix!
5 priests in residence struggle to provide approximately 17 seconds scheduled confession time per week per family.
Poor babies! Imagine how little time for "supernatural priestly duties" if they did not have such heavy logistical (read "control freak") support to allow their sports and recreation time.
5 priests? Philadelphia area doesn't even get any residence Priest. Just one priest driving back and forth from Connecticut.
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They should sell the property in Philly and buy in NJ. Most of the parishioners are from South Jersey anyway. It is surrounded by dangerous neighborhoods. A SSPX priest was shot and lived in the past. With all these riots going on Philly area isn't safe.
The SSPX should up some of the beautiful historic churches ( with school buildings, halls) in South Jersey. Local South Jersey diocese just sold beautiful old Church with school on main high way to a convenience store when there is a big wawas being built in next town over. There is land for sale all over South Jersey with access to turn pike and 295.
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[quote}]
The parish councils came in after Vat II. Each parish was required to have one whether the pastor agreed to it or not. It diminished the role of the pastor as he could be out voted by the parish council. As often happens, the lay people let their position go to their head which created new headaches for the pastor who is directly responsible for the souls within the boundaries of his parish. Those parish councils were the beginning of the end of the pastor as sole (or soul) authority. [/quote]
As a novus ordo parishioner and generally a "lurker" on the site, I do want to offer a point of information. I was born in 1951 for chronological contest regarding my experience with the Church.
It is true that parish or pastoral councils are a post VII phenomena, I have sat on them in three different parishes. THEY ARE NOT REQUIRED, but most pastors will have one. Depending on a pastor's inclinations or a parish's customs, the members are elected by the parish, selected by the sitting council from nominations each year, or selected by the pastor. These councils are purely advisory in nature and have ZERO authority to "out vote" the pastor. I know of situations where pastors have dissolved a council because they "got out of hand".
A parish having a finance committee is required (I believe mandated by current canon law, but I don't have time to look it up). It is permitted for a pastor to designate his parish council as the finance committee also, rather than having a separate free standing one. Again, while a finance committee is mandatory it is advisory in nature. Sometimes this might be as informal as the pastor going golfing Saturday morning with parishioners who are "business savvy" or "know about building". This just makes sense to me as across my now six and a half decades I've known of examples of very holy priests who made some very bad decisions about things like investing the building fund, building maintenance, spent too much time (in my opinion) shopping for a copier (or mimeograph) machine rather than making Communion Calls or hearing confessions, or just let a parish's temporal infrastructure deteriorate (brick mortar not being repointed when needed, stained glass window leading not being repaired), and such like.
One can certainly "hear tales" about a pastor allowing himself to "be subordinate" to a lay council. One can also "hear tales" about pre VII pastors being under the thumb of a parish's "first families", "prime benefactors", the Mother Superior of the school's convent, or even an overpowering rectory housekeeper. This is not a new phenomena in the life of the Church.
In my humble opinion a wise pastor, while being cognizant that he has primary responsibility for both the spiritual and temporal care of his parish, will "consult" with the laity, especially regarding the latter. In the "old days" a wise pastor would routinely circulate among the various lay organizations in a parish (Altar Society, Knights of Columbus, Catholic Daughters, Holy Names Association, St. Vincent de Paul Society, Rosary sodalities, etc.) and while primarily providing leadership and counsel to these lay organizations, ALSO he would seek and welcome their input regarding certain aspects of parish life.
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We as a group have decided to stop posting
We have come to the realization that nothing is going to change and by bringing up the faults of that half built modernist spectacle we are vilified instead of the lying blackmailers who built it
We started posting here in an attempt to coordinate concrete solutions but know see that we are stuck with that insult to our Sorrowful Mother because not enough people will stand up ....Oh not in person , not openly but right here on this forum.We know many many people from OLOS read this forum and most agree with everything said here...well where are you ? why have you not posted your support and added your take on what is going on ? ....exactly
We are still going to withhold the majority of our donations and other forms of support
We will not contribute so long as we are lied to, blackmailed and treated like dirt and plead with other parishioners to join in our silent protest
I'm sorry to hear that, I've learned a lot from you because you seem to have your ear to the ground. What kind of solutions were you looking for?
I hope you will reconsider if only to post what you hear is going on and keep those of us who are not in the loop up to date.
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I can speak to the Catholic parishes before Vat II. Each parish had an older priest who knew from the experience of his years how to take care of his parish. The younger priests came in as assistants to learn under his tutelage. In time they were ready to be given the responsibility of their own parish. Yes, they had primary control. They often stayed as pastor for many years.
The SSPX in the beginning didn't have many priests and none that were older. The District was in its infancy, each chapel was small, and the priest often relied on lay people to help to keep the books. So the few priories that existed (and the missions they served) were under the control of the priest in charge. The micro-managers at the District Office came much later as the Society grew and prospered. Little by little it has evolved into a full-blown bureaucratic, totalitarian "apostolate". It's perfect for the passive, don't bother me too much, kind of priest we're seeing more and more often. If the priest is a doer, one who wants the responsibilites that come with running a parish, and is not happy with spiritual mediocrity, then there will be problems for him at the District level. The chapel may love him but his superiors will not. Here I am not speaking of blatantly disobedient and rebellious priests. I am speaking of very capable, intelligent and respected priests who will be (have been) treated with contempt because they possess all of those qualities that no longer fit this new business model of the SSPX.
Thanks for the good explanation. I have to wonder if this new business model is going to work out for the SSPX in the long run. Can there be anyone (of the faithful) who is actually like how things are done now? Maybe some haven't noticed a change.
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I can speak to the Catholic parishes before Vat II. Each parish had an older priest who knew from the experience of his years how to take care of his parish. The younger priests came in as assistants to learn under his tutelage. In time they were ready to be given the responsibility of their own parish. Yes, they had primary control. They often stayed as pastor for many years.
The SSPX in the beginning didn't have many priests and none that were older. The District was in its infancy, each chapel was small, and the priest often relied on lay people to help to keep the books. So the few priories that existed (and the missions they served) were under the control of the priest in charge. The micro-managers at the District Office came much later as the Society grew and prospered. Little by little it has evolved into a full-blown bureaucratic, totalitarian "apostolate". It's perfect for the passive, don't bother me too much, kind of priest we're seeing more and more often. If the priest is a doer, one who wants the responsibilites that come with running a parish, and is not happy with spiritual mediocrity, then there will be problems for him at the District level. The chapel may love him but his superiors will not. Here I am not speaking of blatantly disobedient and rebellious priests. I am speaking of very capable, intelligent and respected priests who will be (have been) treated with contempt because they possess all of those qualities that no longer fit this new business model of the SSPX.
Thanks for the good explanation. I have to wonder if this new business model is going to work out for the SSPX in the long run. Can there be anyone (of the faithful) who is actually like how things are done now? Maybe some haven't noticed a change.
Truly it is run like a corporation with all power in "Command Central", i.e. the District Office. It makes the Prior no more than a figurehead and, to me, it is demeaning to his office. The laity have no way of knowing how things have changed over the years. It's the seasoned priors who know and most of them are being or have been replaced by the younger ones who will be compliant. Those of us who know the SSPX from the ground up in this country are up in years so there are fewer of us as time passes. It is only because we spent so many years helping the priests, working in the offices, etc., that we were close enough to see the changes.
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As our departure seems to have raised more questions then answers
we wish to clarify and continue to post until your questions are answered
We started this thread as a way to voice our concern about the appalling half built faux-chapel
and the U-turn in tradition presently found in said faux-chapel
we started this thread as way of creating a SAFE place for those that feel as we do, attend OLOS, read Cathinfo and want our church put right to voice their opinions ,their ideas ..frankly anything
It was not started as a sounding board for problems with the society in general or as way to promote parishioners
leaving . With that being said maybe CathInfo was not the forum we should have come to but it is the only Trad forum not on
permanent hibernation and an admin. willing to let things run their coarse
Well as they say "the best laid plans of mice and men"
We know that many ,many parishioners at OLOS read Cathinfo. We know the vast majority agree with our observations and yet will not post
This is the very reason forums operate as they do ,so one may safely and with out the fear of retribution convey ideas ,facts or even rants
but the parishioners of OLOS seem afraid of doing even that
Resigning themselves to worshiping in that sacrilegious insult to our Lord and we are left rehashing the same arguments to and with the same handful of brave souls who have been posting from the beginning That is one of the reasons we are leaving there is no use screaming for help if no one is paying attention
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Apparently OLOS parishioners are speaking out in the most traditional way, withholding donations. The "renters" were over $4,000 short with the June "rent."
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As our departure seems to have raised more questions then answers
we wish to clarify and continue to post until your questions are answered
We started this thread as a way to voice our concern about the appalling half built faux-chapel
and the U-turn in tradition presently found in said faux-chapel
we started this thread as way of creating a SAFE place for those that feel as we do, attend OLOS, read Cathinfo and want our church put right to voice their opinions ,their ideas ..frankly anything
It was not started as a sounding board for problems with the society in general or as way to promote parishioners
leaving . With that being said maybe CathInfo was not the forum we should have come to but it is the only Trad forum not on
permanent hibernation and an admin. willing to let things run their coarse
Well as they say "the best laid plans of mice and men"
We know that many ,many parishioners at OLOS read Cathinfo. We know the vast majority agree with our observations and yet will not post
This is the very reason forums operate as they do ,so one may safely and with out the fear of retribution convey ideas ,facts or even rants
but the parishioners of OLOS seem afraid of doing even that
Resigning themselves to worshiping in that sacrilegious insult to our Lord and we are left rehashing the same arguments to and with the same handful of brave souls who have been posting from the beginning That is one of the reasons we are leaving there is no use screaming for help if no one is paying attention
*waves*
again
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Apparently OLOS parishioners are speaking out in the most traditional way, withholding donations. The "renters" were over $4,000 short with the June "rent."
Do we get "evicted" if we are short on our "rent?"
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I wonder how many will bolt when Fellay finally accepts the personal prelature.
Although I think it will happen eventually, I will wait until it is official to leave.
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marlelar:
I wonder how many will bolt when Fellay finally accepts the personal prelature.
Although I think it will happen eventually, I will wait until it is official to leave.
Most of the sspxers, who think as you do, will testify that sspx has valid Sacraments and validly ordained priests. They go to sspx chapels, because they believe, despite all the current problems and scandals, the supposed fact of sspx Sacramental and priestly validity is paramount. "Validity" trumps everything else. So they continue to attend sspx chapels.
But my question for all of them is this: Will sspx priests and sacramenrs be any more or less valid if Fellay strikes a deal? Even If the SG makes it official, how would that affect the matter of validity? so why not just continue doing what you have done. I mean it's all about the "salvation of our souls." as we hear so often. How would that salvation be jeopardized simply by an official announcement?
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Our family returned to OLOS last fall. We'd been assisting there for 25 years up until the debacle of 2012. We're not happy about having to come back, not to mention the current political situation with Rome, amd it's reflected in our contributions to the collection plate. Why is the SSPX holding us hostage for statues in the new church? I know they have statues of Jesus and Mary that would fit in the front niches. Why not put them out for the faithful? The whole atmosphere of this parish is nothing like it was back in the 80s and 90s. Sad.
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Our family returned to OLOS last fall. We'd been assisting there for 25 years up until the debacle of 2012. We're not happy about having to come back, not to mention the current political situation with Rome, amd it's reflected in our contributions to the collection plate. Why is the SSPX holding us hostage for statues in the new church? I know they have statues of Jesus and Mary that would fit in the front niches. Why not put them out for the faithful? The whole atmosphere of this parish is nothing like it was back in the 80s and 90s. Sad.
I don't know who told parishioners statues would not fit - that is wrong, as you can see from the photo.
Here's the pictures of the original Church (Immaculate Conception in Germantown, a suburb of Philly), where they came from.
Also, the original 120 year-old stained glass windows from there will fit the Church here, if they want to buy them for around $180K - a bargain.
This an album of photos taken after the closing of Immaculate Conception Parish, as it was being readied for sale. They are sad photos, seeing that beautiful church that meant so much to us being stripped. The photos are meant to bring closure, that IC is no more other than in our hearts and in our memories. The intent was to photograph the church after all removal work was done. But, they still had another week of work to do at the time. The intended buyer and use is that of a church. The beautiful altar with the statue of the Blessed Mother on top, the two side altars, the pulpit and the altar rails have all found a new home in the new church that at Our Lady of Sorrows Parish in Phoenix Arizona is building. Almost all of these photos were taken by Nancie Hendrie Capozzi. Nancie and Nick Capozzi graciously answered our call for help in getting these closure photos, and we are very grateful to them for the time, effort and expense they made in this effort. Gratitude also needs to be expressed to Fr. Sy. Peterka C.M. for allowing us access to the church. Much appreciated. While these photos are sad, they represents the final chapter of the grand old parish that will always live on in our hearts and our memories.
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Here's a link to see all the photos, including the glass:
http://pub3.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=199947123#bn-photocenter-1-1-199947123/55516/1/
Closeup of statue in side altar:
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Closeup of baldachin:
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The side altars in the donor church look just like they should -- so why do they not contain statues here in Phoenix? As previously stated, OLOS already has statues that are ready to use.
The new church looks looks nothing like the original renderings presented to us way back when. I assume it has to do with a lack of funds for the project. Bishop Fellay should have considered the financial implications before he purged +Williamson and alienated so many long-time supporters.
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The side altars in the donor church look just like they should -- so why do they not contain statues here in Phoenix? As previously stated, OLOS already has statues that are ready to use.
The new church looks looks nothing like the original renderings presented to us way back when. I assume it has to do with a lack of funds for the project. Bishop Fellay should have considered the financial implications before he purged +Williamson and alienated so many long-time supporters.
It is not lack of funds that have the church looking as it does . There are statues in the basement
along with crucifixes and all manner of holy reminders crates of the stuff But we will see none of it until we pay down the debt
BTW the church was made an offer on the windows from Germantown but we declined one of the reasons was Fr.R and others said they did not fit the new style of the church
As it is now the money for windows is gone
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Here's a link to see all the photos, including the glass:
http://pub3.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?usernum=199947123#bn-photocenter-1-1-199947123/55516/1/
Closeup of statue in side altar:
The stained glass windows are gorgeous!
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marlelar: I wonder how many will bolt when Fellay finally accepts the personal prelature.
Although I think it will happen eventually, I will wait until it is official to leave.
Most of the sspxers, who think as you do, will testify that sspx has valid Sacraments and validly ordained priests. They go to sspx chapels, because they believe, despite all the current problems and scandals, the supposed fact of sspx Sacramental and priestly validity is paramount. "Validity" trumps everything else. So they continue to attend sspx chapels.
But my question for all of them is this: Will sspx priests and sacramenrs be any more or less valid if Fellay strikes a deal? Even If the SG makes it official, how would that affect the matter of validity? so why not just continue doing what you have done. I mean it's all about the "salvation of our souls." as we hear so often. How would that salvation be jeopardized simply by an official announcement?
An official announcement would not invalidate the ordination of any priests, the consecrations of any bishop, the validity of the sacraments celebrated by SSPX priests who were validly ordained, nor would anyone's salvation be jeopardized by an official announcement alone.
The problem is not in the validity of the sacraments from true priests. The problem is the fact that the SSPX has already begun to accept the sacraments of all Novus Ordo priests and bishops and the faithful will have no guarantee after an official announcement that the priest at Mass in an SSPX chapel is definitely validly ordained.
People's salvation will be jeopardized, indeed, some may already have been jeopardized, as Conciliar heresies begin to creep into the sermons preached in those chapels.
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Apparently OLOS parishioners are speaking out in the most traditional way, withholding donations. The "renters" were over $4,000 short with the June "rent."
deo gratias
and those brave souls who are willing to suffer the slings and arrows from the pulpit to do the right thing
We have heard that the parishioners may have to do with out a few other things while this protest continues
We have no word yet as to what that might be
sunt pugnae servabit
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The side altars in the donor church look just like they should -- so why do they not contain statues here in Phoenix? As previously stated, OLOS already has statues that are ready to use.
The new church looks looks nothing like the original renderings presented to us way back when. I assume it has to do with a lack of funds for the project. Bishop Fellay should have considered the financial implications before he purged +Williamson and alienated so many long-time supporters.
It is not lack of funds that have the church looking as it does . There are statues in the basement
along with crucifixes and all manner of holy reminders crates of the stuff But we will see none of it until we pay down the debt
BTW the church was made an offer on the windows from Germantown but we declined one of the reasons was Fr.R and others said they did not fit the new style of the church
As it is now the money for windows is gone
As I said in my earlier post, I know the parish has statues. But has any reason been given by the pastor or district superior for them not being displayed?
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The side altars in the donor church look just like they should -- so why do they not contain statues here in Phoenix? As previously stated, OLOS already has statues that are ready to use.
The new church looks looks nothing like the original renderings presented to us way back when. I assume it has to do with a lack of funds for the project. Bishop Fellay should have considered the financial implications before he purged +Williamson and alienated so many long-time supporters.
It is not lack of funds that have the church looking as it does . There are statues in the basement
along with crucifixes and all manner of holy reminders crates of the stuff But we will see none of it until we pay down the debt
BTW the church was made an offer on the windows from Germantown but we declined one of the reasons was Fr.R and others said they did not fit the new style of the church
As it is now the money for windows is gone
As I said in my earlier post, I know the parish has statues. But has any reason been given by the pastor or district superior for them not being displayed?
There will be no statues or anything else coming up from the basement until the debt is paid down
that goes for the windows as well .
the statue of the sacred heart has been returned to the basement where it has been wrapped up
We hope it is not being gotten rid of as so many holy reminders from the old church have
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It is not lack of funds that have the church looking as it does . There are statues in the basement along with crucifixes and all manner of holy reminders crates of the stuff But we will see none of it until we pay down the debt
BTW the church was made an offer on the windows from Germantown but we declined one of the reasons was Fr.R and others said they did not fit the new style of the church
As it is now the money for windows is gone
The man who runs the company that holds the windows said they would indeed fit the Church and that is BECAUSE the style of the two Churches was the same. It is about the architectural shape.
Unless by "new style" you mean the artwork of the painting, and not the shape. If that is the case, and you actually had Fr. Riccomini or other people complain about the "artwork" of 120 year-old windows that were hand-painted in Munich, Germany "not fitting the new style," then the people really do deserve whatever less-beautiful, more-expensive windows they get.
I would love to hear an explanation of how these beautiful windows "don't fit the style."
http://www.sacredwindowrescueproject.org/indcatalog.php?jawn=ICGP
Oh well. As you said the money is gone, and the Church is dead.
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It is not lack of funds that have the church looking as it does . There are statues in the basement along with crucifixes and all manner of holy reminders crates of the stuff But we will see none of it until we pay down the debt
BTW the church was made an offer on the windows from Germantown but we declined one of the reasons was Fr.R and others said they did not fit the new style of the church
As it is now the money for windows is gone
The man who runs the company that holds the windows said they would indeed fit the Church and that is BECAUSE the style of the two Churches was the same. It is about the architectural shape.
Unless by "new style" you mean the artwork of the painting, and not the shape. If that is the case, and you actually had Fr. Riccomini or other people complain about the "artwork" of 120 year-old windows that were hand-painted in Munich, Germany "not fitting the new style," then the people really do deserve whatever less-beautiful, more-expensive windows they get.
http://www.sacredwindowrescueproject.org/indcatalog.php?jawn=ICGP
As we have said before
/that is exactly what is meant by "NEW STYLE". Fr. R was heard to say that the windows and statues previously planned "cluttered" the church It is all a mute point now like we said the money is gone so even if the church was able to get the single color glass Fr.R wanted they couldn't
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The side altars in the donor church look just like they should -- so why do they not contain statues here in Phoenix? As previously stated, OLOS already has statues that are ready to use.
The new church looks looks nothing like the original renderings presented to us way back when. I assume it has to do with a lack of funds for the project. Bishop Fellay should have considered the financial implications before he purged +Williamson and alienated so many long-time supporters.
It is not lack of funds that have the church looking as it does . There are statues in the basement
along with crucifixes and all manner of holy reminders crates of the stuff But we will see none of it until we pay down the debt
BTW the church was made an offer on the windows from Germantown but we declined one of the reasons was Fr.R and others said they did not fit the new style of the church
As it is now the money for windows is gone
As I said in my earlier post, I know the parish has statues. But has any reason been given by the pastor or district superior for them not being displayed?
There will be no statues or anything else coming up from the basement until the debt is paid down
that goes for the windows as well .
the statue of the sacred heart has been returned to the basement where it has been wrapped up
We hope it is not being gotten rid of as so many holy reminders from the old church have
So this this the official position of the current or former pastor? If so, was it announced from the pulpit or in the bulletin? I'm trying to get to something concrete here.
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Our family returned to OLOS last fall. We'd been assisting there for 25 years up until the debacle of 2012. We're not happy about having to come back,
Why did you come back? I'm just curious because there are other traditional options in the valley besides OLS.
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As we have said before that is exactly what is meant by "NEW STYLE". Fr. R was heard to say that the windows and statues previously planned "cluttered" the church It is all a mute point now like we said the money is gone so even if the church was able to get the single color glass Fr.R wanted they couldn't
Fr. Riccomini wanted SINGLE COLOR GLASS??
That is certifiably INSANE.
Just flat out - insane.
What Traditional PRIEST in his right mind would want to turn a newly built Church into a Novus Ordo-like monstrosity??
Good thing he was "retired" after all.
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Isth there the posssibillity....
That Our Lady of Sorrows, in Phoenix and Our Mother of Perpetual Help in N. CA are going to become Novus ordo priest, Retreat meccas after the deal?
In thisth case, they'd have to "Trad-down" and make the chapels more comfy for the Conciliarisssts.
(http://www.seomoz.org/images/post_images/daffy-duck.jpg)
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Phx:
As we have said before
/that is exactly what is meant by "NEW STYLE". Fr. R was heard to say that the windows and statues previously planned "cluttered" the church It is all a mute (sic) point now like we said the money is gone so even if the church was able to get the single color glass Fr.R wanted they couldn't
I have tried to follow this whole OLS affair, but have to confess that the whole matter is so bizzare, (even by neo-sspx standards), that I fail to make heads or tails of it.
So, OLS has a statue of the Sacred Heart and other traditional-type statues and decorative items in the basement, but won't bring them upstairs because they don't conform to the new architectural design? The sspx brass wants single color windows, because the more traditional stain glass look just doesn't fit in? Wegner spends several weeks haranguing the faithful over the their failure to pay down the outstanding loan. Now it's all too little too late anyway. The sspx prior there, who was pushing all this, has been sent off . Say what!!? Do you all realize how crazy and grimly humorous this all sounds to some of us on the outside looking in? I mean, you've got to be kidding. You are kidding, aren't you?
Why doesn't Menzingen's Grand Pooh-Bah step in with a final word? Why doesn't he formally adjudicate the matter? After all, the building and grounds do belong to the sspx corporate structure don't they?
I'll have to say this, though. This subject still seems to have legs. The story hasn't fallen off appreciably. It still commands some attention, unlike the ICA scandal, which fell off the edge of the earth.
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Our family returned to OLOS last fall. We'd been assisting there for 25 years up until the debacle of 2012. We're not happy about having to come back,
Why did you come back? I'm just curious because there are other traditional options in the valley besides OLS.
There are no decent options beside OLOS. There's the Society of St. Peter church (might as well stay with SSPX), two Sede parishes (we're not of that persuasion), Fr. Finegan's church (he's pretty unstable) and St. Catherine indult mass (we don't speak Spanish).
What other options are you referring to?
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The side altars in the donor church look just like they should -- so why do they not contain statues here in Phoenix? As previously stated, OLOS already has statues that are ready to use.
The new church looks looks nothing like the original renderings presented to us way back when. I assume it has to do with a lack of funds for the project. Bishop Fellay should have considered the financial implications before he purged +Williamson and alienated so many long-time supporters.
It is not lack of funds that have the church looking as it does . There are statues in the basement
along with crucifixes and all manner of holy reminders crates of the stuff But we will see none of it until we pay down the debt
BTW the church was made an offer on the windows from Germantown but we declined one of the reasons was Fr.R and others said they did not fit the new style of the church
As it is now the money for windows is gone
As I said in my earlier post, I know the parish has statues. But has any reason been given by the pastor or district superior for them not being displayed?
There will be no statues or anything else coming up from the basement until the debt is paid down
that goes for the windows as well .
the statue of the sacred heart has been returned to the basement where it has been wrapped up
We hope it is not being gotten rid of as so many holy reminders from the old church have
So this this the official position of the current or former pastor? If so, was it announced from the pulpit or in the bulletin? I'm trying to get to something concrete here.
Still waiting for an answer to my question above...
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There are no decent options beside OLOS. There's the Society of St. Peter church (might as well stay with SSPX), two Sede parishes (we're not of that persuasion), Fr. Finegan's church (he's pretty unstable) and St. Catherine indult mass (we don't speak Spanish).
What other options are you referring to?
St. Catherine's on Central has an Indult TLM?? Is that true? What time?
I've jumped ship to the FSSP for the moment because I am sick of some other shenanigans, but the FSSP is not really a great long-term solution. I won't go sede, either, and I've heard if Fr. Finegan thinks you "favor the Resistance" he gives you the boot, so I didn't even bother trying there.
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So, OLS has a statue of the Sacred Heart and other traditional-type statues and decorative items in the basement, but won't bring them upstairs because they don't conform to the new architectural design? The sspx brass wants single color windows, because the more traditional stain glass look just doesn't fit in? Wegner spends several weeks haranguing the faithful over the their failure to pay down the outstanding loan. Now it's all too little too late anyway. The sspx prior there, who was pushing all this, has been sent off . Say what!!? Do you all realize how crazy and grimly humorous this all sounds to some of us on the outside looking in? I mean, you've got to be kidding. You are kidding, aren't you?
I wish they WERE kidding, but it's all true. As someone upthread already stated, it is a den of vipers. The parish is in a real mess.
But, I also want an answer from PHXGroup as to how the priests are even able to hold some statues "hostage" in the basement. What kind of baloney is that? Why doesn't ANYONE ask the OBVIOUS question of Fr. Stafki: "Hey, would you please unlock the basement and bring our statues upstairs?? Thanks!" It's a five-minute expedition, no?
Is everyone in this parish really so SCARED that they can't even go ask some simple questions?
If so, what is everyone so AFRAID of??
Getting kicked out of the parish? Is that it?
You don't REALLY think they are kicking people out of the parish do you??
wink wink nudge nudge
:wink:
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mw:
I wish they WERE kidding, but it's all true. As someone upthread already stated, it is a den of vipers. The parish is in a real mess.
A real mess, you say? Well then it's a perfect time to re-unite with the 'real mess' in Rome. Now that SSPX becomes more and more like fallen church, assimilation should be easy.
But, I also want an answer from PHXGroup as to how the priests are even able to hold some statues "hostage" in the basement. What kind of baloney is that? Why doesn't ANYONE ask the OBVIOUS question of Fr. Stafki: "Hey, would you please unlock the basement and bring our statues upstairs?? Thanks!" It's a five-minute expedition, no?
Yeah, just go on up to the Communion rail after Mass, and say: "Hey Father, give us the key to the basement. We won't inconvenience you. Just go on reading your Breviary. We'll get the stuff up here by ourselves."
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There are no decent options beside OLOS. There's the Society of St. Peter church (might as well stay with SSPX), two Sede parishes (we're not of that persuasion), Fr. Finegan's church (he's pretty unstable) and St. Catherine indult mass (we don't speak Spanish).
What other options are you referring to?
St. Catherine's on Central has an Indult TLM?? Is that true? What time?
I've jumped ship to the FSSP for the moment because I am sick of some other shenanigans, but the FSSP is not really a great long-term solution. I won't go sede, either, and I've heard if Fr. Finegan thinks you "favor the Resistance" he gives you the boot, so I didn't even bother trying there.
St. Catherine of Sienna Mass times (http://www.stcatherinephoenix.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19&Itemid=3)
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I think going FSSP or Indult is jumping from the frying pan into the fire. They are both thoroughly V2 creations.
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Our family returned to OLOS last fall. We'd been assisting there for 25 years up until the debacle of 2012. We're not happy about having to come back,
Why did you come back? I'm just curious because there are other traditional options in the valley besides OLS.
There are no decent options beside OLOS. There's the Society of St. Peter church (might as well stay with SSPX), two Sede parishes (we're not of that persuasion), Fr. Finegan's church (he's pretty unstable) and St. Catherine indult mass (we don't speak Spanish).
What other options are you referring to?
I was thinking of the CMRI and also Our Lady of the Sun. But if those are not an option for you then yes, you are stuck. FSSP and Indult are just V2 churches with smells and bells.
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If so, what is everyone so AFRAID of??
Getting kicked out of the parish? Is that it?
You don't REALLY think they are kicking people out of the parish do you??
wink wink nudge nudge
:wink:[/quote]
Yes they are.
They will have to drive-off at least 50% of the real trads at Our Lady of Sorrows to give them control and put them back on-track for the coming changes.
That's why you're seeing "new faces"
(http://www.traditio.com/comment/com1604r.jpg)
The current stand-off is one of the Consiliar church's, "best practices" techniques.
Father Wegner is still working on a plan to drive off the rest of the stalwarts.
The problem is... the real trads at your chapel figured out where the xSPX is headed and they don't like it.
Your chapel is destined to be one of the larger orientation/retreat centers in the South West.
Novus ordo priest & lay folks will be coming en masse, into neo-traditionalism after the deal.
Of course, Bp. Fellay will claim it to be another miracle from his Rosary crusades.
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fingegan
Fr. Finegan's church (he's pretty unstable)
Can you tell me when and under what circuмstances Fr. Finegan exited the SSPX, where his church is now, and why you say, "he's pretty unstable?"
In your opinion is going to Fr. Finegan's church a fairly unacceptable alternative to OLS? Thanks much for any info and or opinion you can provide.
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fingegan
Fr. Finegan's church (he's pretty unstable)
Can you tell me when and under what circuмstances Fr. Finegan exited the SSPX, where his church is now, and why you say, "he's pretty unstable?"
In your opinion is going to Fr. Finegan's church a fairly unacceptable alternative to OLS? Thanks much for any info and or opinion you can provide.
I don't know who said Fr. Finegan is "unstable."
It is widely known that he has health problems appropriate to his age, but I would not use the word "unstable" to describe that.
His chapel, Our Lady of Quito, is just up the hill from Our Lady of Sorrows. When he isn't harping on his dislike of Bp. Williamson, he gives very edifying and practical sermons. His sermons are typically very long, often about an hour, but they are so well organized and so full of useful content that his sermons are enjoyable. I have never heard him give an airy-fairy sermon or complain about "renters." I have never heard him preach anything dubious like I have heard at Our Lady of Sorrows (usury, Holy Ghost is like a mother, etc.).
Years ago he explained to me why he left the SSPX/Our Lady of Sorrows, something to do with a disagreement about "Feeneyism," but I do not recall specifics.
Further, when I couldn't get the priests at Our Lady of Sorrows to answer their phone (or even open the front gate) to visit a dying Catholic, Fr. Finnegan answered his own phone and was at my friend's bedside within a half-hour. God bless Fr. Finnegan!
I think he and his chapel are arguably a better alternative than Our Lady of Sorrows.
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The side altars in the donor church look just like they should -- so why do they not contain statues here in Phoenix? As previously stated, OLOS already has statues that are ready to use.
The new church looks looks nothing like the original renderings presented to us way back when. I assume it has to do with a lack of funds for the project. Bishop Fellay should have considered the financial implications before he purged +Williamson and alienated so many long-time supporters.
It is not lack of funds that have the church looking as it does . There are statues in the basement
along with crucifixes and all manner of holy reminders crates of the stuff But we will see none of it until we pay down the debt
BTW the church was made an offer on the windows from Germantown but we declined one of the reasons was Fr.R and others said they did not fit the new style of the church
As it is now the money for windows is gone
As I said in my earlier post, I know the parish has statues. But has any reason been given by the pastor or district superior for them not being displayed?
There will be no statues or anything else coming up from the basement until the debt is paid down
that goes for the windows as well .
the statue of the sacred heart has been returned to the basement where it has been wrapped up
We hope it is not being gotten rid of as so many holy reminders from the old church have[/quote
The novus ordo have been getting rid of Sacred Heart of Jesus statues. Many religious statues on sale or tossed into the trash. Same with Crucifixes.
Sacred Heart of Jesus is being replaced with Divine Mercy Jesus. Many parishes have zero picture or statue; nothing about Our Blessed Mother. Traditional Crucifixes have been replaced with a controversial version of St. Francis of Assisi. ( this version used by sodomist friendly parishes).
More and more new age or even satanic artwork in churches like The late Cardinal Bernardin.
Female deaconesses? They are all ready there and rapidly increasing in many no parishes. They are replacing little girls and little boys on the altar. In our area, they are mannish females.
The SSPX deal with Rome was made many years ago. They are just going through phases of easing the people into the next phase.
In the mean time, most historical Churches are being sold while ugly cold modern churches remain. Rich parishes remain while working class mide class are shut down.
Most bishops are working against Jesus Christ and the true Catholic Church. A couple bishops do the minimal.
Yes, there are wolves among the sheep including within Traditional Catholicism.
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It is not lack of funds that have the church looking as it does . There are statues in the basement
along with crucifixes and all manner of holy reminders crates of the stuff But we will see none of it until we pay down the debt
Well, maybe the OLS parishoners would be more amenable to paying down the debt, if they got all that stuff out of basement and set it all back up in the sanctuary. Meanwhile, that would leave plenty of room in the basement to store Fr. Stafki and his four assistants. It's just a suggestion, and will probably not be taken seriously.
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Golly, that's funny.
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And the lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the lord of that servant being moved with pity, let him go and forgave him the debt
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fingegan
Fr. Finegan's church (he's pretty unstable)
Can you tell me when and under what circuмstances Fr. Finegan exited the SSPX, where his church is now, and why you say, "he's pretty unstable?"
In your opinion is going to Fr. Finegan's church a fairly unacceptable alternative to OLS? Thanks much for any info and or opinion you can provide.
My family went to OLS back when Fr. Finegan was pastor. He baptized our oldest daughter. He is well meaning. That being said, he is prone to emotional tirades and other odd behavior. I recall him delivering sermons that lasted well over an hour, with no substantive instruction at all -- just conspiracy theories involving other traditional priests in the area. It was simply too much. His church would be my last resort when (not if) OLS goes Novus Ordo.
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There are no decent options beside OLOS. There's the Society of St. Peter church (might as well stay with SSPX), two Sede parishes (we're not of that persuasion), Fr. Finegan's church (he's pretty unstable) and St. Catherine indult mass (we don't speak Spanish).
What other options are you referring to?
St. Catherine's on Central has an Indult TLM?? Is that true? What time?
I've jumped ship to the FSSP for the moment because I am sick of some other shenanigans, but the FSSP is not really a great long-term solution. I won't go sede, either, and I've heard if Fr. Finegan thinks you "favor the Resistance" he gives you the boot, so I didn't even bother trying there.
St. Catherine of Sienna Mass times (http://www.stcatherinephoenix.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19&Itemid=3)
Sun: 8:00am (Sermon en Español)
12:00pm (English Sermon) @ St. John Bosco Chapel
I see now why Marlelar said "we don't speak Spanish" ...haha.
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There are no decent options beside OLOS. There's the Society of St. Peter church (might as well stay with SSPX), two Sede parishes (we're not of that persuasion), Fr. Finegan's church (he's pretty unstable) and St. Catherine indult mass (we don't speak Spanish).
What other options are you referring to?
St. Catherine's on Central has an Indult TLM?? Is that true? What time?
I've jumped ship to the FSSP for the moment because I am sick of some other shenanigans, but the FSSP is not really a great long-term solution. I won't go sede, either, and I've heard if Fr. Finegan thinks you "favor the Resistance" he gives you the boot, so I didn't even bother trying there.
St. Catherine of Sienna Mass times (http://www.stcatherinephoenix.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19&Itemid=3)
Sun: 8:00am (Sermon en Español)
12:00pm (English Sermon) @ St. John Bosco Chapel
I see now why Marlelar said "we don't speak Spanish" ...haha.
I don't believe they have the 12 noon Latin Mass any longer.
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So this this the official position of the current or former pastor? If so, was it announced from the pulpit or in the bulletin? I'm trying to get to something concrete here.
OK so this is their plan
First things first .The parishioners have to pay down the debt with the building fund then finish the basement with said fund then and only then will the focus be on the inside of the church
Even then most of the statues that are to be put in the church including the side altars are to be purchased new as very little of the things in the basement fit the new style
This could all take years and years but the thought is that if we want stage three we will hurry and pay off stage 1 and 2 and no none of this information came from the pulpit but never the less it is all true or we would not print it
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Here is an example of their first things first plan in action
one of our members who's spouse sings in the choir asked Fr. if they may put a statue or crucifix from the basement in the choir loft The answer was that there was nothing in the basement and no they could not put anything in the loft because it would not fit the style
this person asked if maybe the members of the choir could purchase a statue that did fit the style of the church, Maybe a St. Cecilia as the one from the old church had been discarded. The answer was NO and furthermore if they had money for such a statue they should donate it to the building fund
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Here is an example of their first things first plan in action
one of our members who's spouse sings in the choir asked Fr. if they may put a statue or crucifix from the basement in the choir loft The answer was that there was nothing in the basement and no they could not put anything in the loft because it would not fit the style
this person asked if maybe the members of the choir could purchase a statue that did fit the style of the church, Maybe a St. Cecilia as the one from the old church had been discarded. The answer was NO and furthermore if they had money for such a statue they should donate it to the building fund
Sounds like a dysfunctional Novus ordo parish?
Sorry to say, I think your chapel is finished.
Time to find an independent priest and retreat from these modernist political shennigans.
Otherwise, you'll never find peace.
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Isth there the posssibillity....
That Our Lady of Sorrows, in Phoenix and Our Mother of Perpetual Help in N. CA are going to become Novus ordo priest, Retreat meccas after the deal?
In thisth case, they'd have to "Trad-down" and make the chapels more comfy for the Conciliarisssts.
(http://www.seomoz.org/images/post_images/daffy-duck.jpg)
There are many in novus ordo who prefer beautiful Churches with stain glass windows.
Sodomist clergy. either go lace and beauty or there are the sodomist clergy that wants zero statues. Especially of the Virgin Mary. And don't forget the clergy with Masonic and demonic ties.
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If the Pastor says "no". Then write letters to Superior General with copy sent to Bishop Fellay.
Why build brand new Churches when there are so many traditional Catholic Churches and Cathedrals for sale.
It is a sin to be wasteful. Those statues should be placed in the Church; not sold off in the future.
In the novus ordo, there has been many priests stealing from the parishes. Up in New York, there was priest stealing to support his double life of sodomy with a man.
There are priests selling religious statues too to profit their luxury lifestyles of fancy dinners, exotic travel and vacation homes, mansions with swimming pools while laity mostly female are handing out communion to shut ins and hospital visits. I'm not accusing anyone in SSPX but this what is going on in novus ordo. People die and donate money and no sign of the money that was specifically for the upkeep of the parish.
Plenty of gαy friendly parishes but the Latin Mass parishes aren't allowed.
They are working on the next demonic phase which would gαy friendly Latin parishes with zero moral theology. Divorced Catholics are accepted to hold positions within parishes.
Female deacons are next. Many are already in place in many parishes just waiting for the official title while children and grandchildren are running the streets with zero religion.
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The answer (from Father) was that there was nothing in the basement and no they could not put anything in the loft because it would not fit the style
"Does not fit the style" is a conditioned mantra. When the priest says it does not fit the style, he is merely reflecting the will of his superior(s)
It's much like the the mantra which came out of the Williamson interview in 2009. Priest parrots went about chirping that "he was very imprudent." They were taught to say this from above, by their handlers.
VCR:
If the Pastor says "no". Then write letters to Superior General with copy sent to Bishop Fellay.
See above. You mean, I suppose, 'District Superior' with a copy to the SG. VCR, it's the D.S. and the SG who are refusing to allow these items to be brought upstairs. Don't you get it?
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Which choir loft are you referring to? There are already 2 icons in the choir loft, one of the Madonna with Child and another of the Sacred Heart. I'm a little confused....
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Which choir loft are you referring to?
Is there more than one?
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The answer (from Father) was that there was nothing in the basement and no they could not put anything in the loft because it would not fit the style
"Does not fit the style" is a conditioned mantra. When the priest says it does not fit the style, he is merely reflecting the will of his superior(s)
It's much like the the mantra which came out of the Williamson interview in 2009. Priest parrots went about chirping that "he was very imprudent." They were taught to say this from above, by their handlers.
VCR:
If the Pastor says "no". Then write letters to Superior General with copy sent to Bishop Fellay.
See above. You mean, I suppose, 'District Superior' with a copy to the SG. VCR, it's the D.S. and the SG who are refusing to allow these items to be brought upstairs. Don't you get it?
I understand what you are saying. I get it. Superior General had to approve that hideous chapel in Madrid.
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We lose so much when we do not have great art in our churches. I was sitting there last Sunday (Phx) and was just overwhelmed by the barrenness of the building. It looks so unfinished. There are no beautiful statues of our Lord or Lady to inspire reflection, no richly colored windows to tell the Gospel story. No saints to give example to our children.
Although it is named Our Lady of Sorrows, we do not have a statue of Our Lady of Sorrows, who would know why it is called that? What were her sorrows? Why do we have that particular devotion? What do we tell the children? It is the next generation that loses for they will have no vivid memories of beautiful churches and what they meant. They may never come to appreciate the importance of religious art.
Catholicism isn't Calvinism, why do our churches look like something Calvin would approve of?
Not to mention that we have no hymnals and no way of knowing what music the choir will sing so that we can join in the processional and recessional.
Such a sorry state of affairs.
p.s. If you ever come to Phx go to St. Mary's Basilica to see an absolutely beautiful church. It breaks my heart that it is in the hands of rabid Novus Ordo Franciscans.
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What's even more interesting is the financials from last Sunday's bulletin.
Plenty of people on the thread have said they are voting with their wallets and this is proven in the financials.
June's building fund collection was $7,497 and July's was even less at $6,926. The previous few months averaged $10-15K. And the previous year's averages were much, much higher.
They have the "rent" listed at $11,522 each month, so they are running a hefty deficit now.
So, I guess they can keep holding the parishioners' statues hostage in the basement until they reach a point where they can't even pay the light bill.
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Here is an example of their first things first plan in action
one of our members who's spouse sings in the choir asked Fr. if they may put a statue or crucifix from the basement in the choir loft The answer was that there was nothing in the basement and no they could not put anything in the loft because it would not fit the style
this person asked if maybe the members of the choir could purchase a statue that did fit the style of the church, Maybe a St. Cecilia as the one from the old church had been discarded. The answer was NO and furthermore if they had money for such a statue they should donate it to the building fund
Why don't you elaborate on who is making these decisions for the parish, since you seem to be aware of how it works?
Is there a board? A committee?
Because from where I sit in the pews, it looks as if there is one person making the decisions - and that isn't Fr. Stafki.
Why don't people go and demand the stuff be brought up or whatever other actions are needed?
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Incredulous:
Sounds like a dysfunctional Novus ordo parish?
Sorry to say, I think your chapel is finished.
Time to find an independent priest and retreat from these modernist political shennigans.
Otherwise, you'll never find peace.
No, it's a dysfunctional sspx traditional Catholic parish. Yes, it is finished, but some of the folks in Phoenix must be too close to the situation to see it.
Yes, get an independent priest and leave in a body!
ICC in Post Falls, ID is dysfunctional too. They, too, need to be searching for independent priests.
I'll take it a step further. the entire sspx organization is finished.
Good riddance!
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Here is an example of their first things first plan in action
one of our members who's spouse sings in the choir asked Fr. if they may put a statue or crucifix from the basement in the choir loft The answer was that there was nothing in the basement and no they could not put anything in the loft because it would not fit the style
this person asked if maybe the members of the choir could purchase a statue that did fit the style of the church, Maybe a St. Cecilia as the one from the old church had been discarded. The answer was NO and furthermore if they had money for such a statue they should donate it to the building fund
This is called "Priorities". We all should use these. The problem here is that you have different priorities and less information. It's easy to question authorities based on our limited information. Just as someone in customer service can question the actions of a CEO, you are judging based on ridiculously limited information.
My gosh. Who knew that statues would cause such a problem. We're really grasping at straws to call Phoenix a dysfunctional parish because they don't have the funds to purchase new statues. How many of the people complaining here actually spent time in front of the statues that they DEMAND be restored? I don't recall seeing anyone, so that is curious to say the least.
Because, everything that you see here is 100% speculation. It's a disgruntled customer service rep complaining/speculating about the decisions of his superiors. Guys like hollingsworth have had problems with the SSPX since its inception, so the SSPX is literally incapable of doing anything that isn't evil in his mind.
Let's think about the side altars. White marble with a green marble inlay. No one here might be an interior designer, but old styled and fully colored statues just won't look good. Even the pictures posted by someone here of how the altars were previously set up show that they had plain white statues.
Yet another newbie signs in to leave horse droppings and straw man arguments.
What a farce to pretend that statues are the only issue! ... that you never saw anyone in front of the statues previously. Blind in one eye and can't see out of the other?
Any honest review of the thread finds these complaints:
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) misappropriation of donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports and lounge around
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) clandestinely running off Fr. Riccomini by the "usual suspects" because Fr. Riccomini refused to have a girls volleyball team
(15) suppression of devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty supercilious attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) suppression of the adult catechism classes,
and, yes,
(21) the statues.
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Dogma:
Guys like hollingsworth have had problems with the SSPX since its inception, so the SSPX is literally incapable of doing anything that isn't evil in his mind.
We began to associate with sspx in 2001 or 02. Were those the years of that organization's inception?
Point of fact: I didn't become a NO Catholic until 1986, two years before ABL consecrated the four bishops.
Does that help you put things in perspective, Dogma? I think your remark was a bit careless.
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It occurs to me that Dogma's post is a really good example of why the parish (and the overall Society as a whole) is really in its death throes.
I predict once the deal is announced and OLOS and the Society is officially part of the N.O. again that the Society's lay persons will become the biggest persecutors of the Traditional Catholics who avoid the Society and stay away from the Vatican structure.
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Perhaps with Fr. Scott's return we will have evening adult catechism classes once again. His series on the problems with V2 was very good. He used The Errors of Vatican II (http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/2003_January/errors_of_vatican_II.htm) as his outline for the talks.
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Perhaps with Fr. Scott's return we will have evening adult catechism classes once again. His series on the problems with V2 was very good. He used The Errors of Vatican II (http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/2003_January/errors_of_vatican_II.htm) as his outline for the talks.
But... if we are to believe Msgr. Fellay:
There are no more errors... just misunderstandings and pastorial misinterpretations of VII.
The word "Errors" has been deleted from his vocabulary and Father Scott's lectures are now passe'.
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Yet another newbie signs in to leave horse droppings and straw man arguments.
What a farce to pretend that statues are the only issue! ... that you never saw anyone in front of the statues previously. Blind in one eye and can't see out of the other?
Any honest review of the thread finds these complaints:
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) misappropriation of donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports and lounge around
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) clandestinely running off Fr. Riccomini by the "usual suspects" because Fr. Riccomini refused to have a girls volleyball team
(15) suppression of devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty supercilious attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) suppression of the adult catechism classes,
and, yes,
(21) the statues.
I've read through your list of "complaints" which are far more similar to the horse droppings that you reference than my comments on people moaning. So, let's address them all!
1. I've never run to a priest who hasn't been willing or able to make time. Ever. Of course, they are busy.....
2. I love this complaint. Please tell me what is more effective. Preaching on HOW we should act, rather than how terrible Vatican II was and is. This is once again an example of things not going your way, so it must be wrong, right?
3. I must not have been there for this sermon, so I cannot comment.
4a. That is not what I or anyone else that I spoke to got out of Fr. Wegner's sermon. Someone who, like yourself, is itching to find fault with the SSPX might, but most people didn't and don't.
4b. Another misrepresentation. To say that the Holy Ghost has qualities that are motherly is different from your false quote. Any twit can grab a quote and tear it shreds without looking at the whole picture.
5. I love this one. And which play was this? Does the morals of the author affect the morality of a play? Oscar Wilde is indeed a reprehensible, but the play (as it was executed) was not.
6. You can nitpick ANY play and find fault with it. This is purely based on what YOU deem is right and appropriate. You're so blinded by hate that you can't see past it.
7. A donation is a donation. Unless you've signed a legal agreement, once the money has left your hands, it's up to them how to use it. I guess it would have been better to not build a church at all, so that we can use the glass funds "appropriately". What I love is how people complain about not having things in the church and then want to stop donating. So.....you reap what you sow? Is it misleading what was done? Yes, it was and it is extremely unfortunate that it was handled that way. But neither you nor I know the reasons why. The difference is that you assume that it was abused because you're bitter.
8. Yep. And both the priests and the builder have expressed their dislike of it. It isn't great. This shows that the church is dysfunctional????
9. Let's dive in to this particular horse dropping. We all know that the media has no love for Catholics. They will report WHATEVER it takes to paint Catholic priests in a poor light. One would think that the police would be pursuing Fr. Crane if they were able to actually verify what the local paper reported. Or, perhaps, the media didn't do a great job of investigating (Shocking, I'm sure) and simply wanted to throw a priest under a bus. You have NO idea what Fr. Crane was told and how he responded. But, you choose to believe the liberal and anti-Catholic media (who don't care whether you're resistance, SSPX, or Norvus Ordo) because it helps justify your blind hatred.
10. Between a lack of really active members and the fact that they hardly did anything, I doubt that the majority have even noticed.
11. The chapel offers the early morning Mass for the working men. This is a preference problem.
12. I have yet to see a priest "lounge" around so that's a blatant lie and you know it. They offer Confessions on Saturdays, during the week for the school kids, Thursdays and all morning on Sundays when they have more than one priest. What more do you want?
13. Simply false.
14. You're speculating and the decision to remove the girls' volleyball team was handed down to him from up top. So, that doesn't really hold water.
15. Suppression? You're really reaching now.
16. I guess they really should just fill up pinatas with holy cards and medals. I mean, hearing the descriptions of the saints from 90 children wouldn't take hours and is totally practical.
17. I agree that they could do a better job of this.
18. Notice how they removed that once the grass became more established? Wasn't that the original problem? OH yeah......
19. So, report it. But, remember that the current ushers were all members of your beloved "Holy Name Society". What went wrong?
20. I love your abuse of the word "suppression". To stop having something is not a suppression, but rather just stopping. I agree that they should have something for the adults, though. Time is a factor that you fail to recognize.
21. Uhuh....
I may be new to this forum, but I've watched the Resistance from it's beginnings. So, your ad hominem attack is noted. Well done.
Great post!
-
(Laughing) Yeah, "great" if you believe "2 is not less than 3," etc.
I've read through your list of "complaints" which are far more similar to the horse droppings that you reference than my comments on people moaning. So, let's address them all!
1. I've never run to a priest who hasn't been willing or able to make time. Ever. Of course, they are busy.....
If you are a sycophant cultist, nobody would expect you to have been "killed" or blown off.
Whether you are pro-SSPX or anti-SSPX seems to be a moot point because you spew constant disrespect and hatefulness and I am blown away that you even bother attending Mass there. I don't see how it can be fruitful for you when you manage to spend the entire time adding more and more to your list of problems.
Man up and have a meeting with the clergy of Our Lady of Sorrows- if the answers aren't what you are looking for-then help find resolutions or just leave.
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Whether you are pro-SSPX or anti-SSPX seems to be a moot point because you spew constant disrespect and hatefulness and I am blown away that you even bother attending Mass there. I don't see how it can be fruitful for you when you manage to spend the entire time adding more and more to your list of problems.
Man up and have a meeting with the clergy of Our Lady of Sorrows- if the answers aren't what you are looking for-then help find resolutions or just leave.
Whenever you can't rebut the charges, accuse the messenger of "hate" ... or invoke the most outrageous of lies (e.g., 2 is not less than 3).
What tribe taught you that?
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12 July 2012
The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies
A sends:
The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5
1. COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum
2. Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
3. Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
4. How to Spot a Spy (Cointelpro Agent)
5. Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
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COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum..
There are several techniques for the control and manipulation of a internet forum no matter what, or who is on it. We will go over each technique and demonstrate that only a minimal number of operatives can be used to eventually and effectively gain a control of a 'uncontrolled forum.'
Technique #1 - 'FORUM SLIDING'
If a very sensitive posting of a critical nature has been posted on a forum - it can be quickly removed from public view by 'forum sliding.' In this technique a number of unrelated posts are quietly prepositioned on the forum and allowed to 'age.' Each of these misdirectional forum postings can then be called upon at will to trigger a 'forum slide.' The second requirement is that several fake accounts exist, which can be called upon, to ensure that this technique is not exposed to the public. To trigger a 'forum slide' and 'flush' the critical post out of public view it is simply a matter of logging into each account both real and fake and then 'replying' to prepositined postings with a simple 1 or 2 line comment. This brings the unrelated postings to the top of the forum list, and the critical posting 'slides' down the front page, and quickly out of public view. Although it is difficult or impossible to censor the posting it is now lost in a sea of unrelated and unuseful postings. By this means it becomes effective to keep the readers of the forum reading unrelated and non-issue items.
Technique #2 - 'CONSENSUS CRACKING'
A second highly effective technique (which you can see in operation all the time at www.abovetopsecret.com) is 'consensus cracking.' To develop a consensus crack, the following technique is used. Under the guise of a fake account a posting is made which looks legitimate and is towards the truth is made - but the critical point is that it has a VERY WEAK PREMISE without substantive proof to back the posting. Once this is done then under alternative fake accounts a very strong position in your favour is slowly introduced over the life of the posting. It is IMPERATIVE that both sides are initially presented, so the uninformed reader cannot determine which side is the truth. As postings and replies are made the stronger 'evidence' or disinformation in your favour is slowly 'seeded in.' Thus the uninformed reader will most like develop the same position as you, and if their position is against you their opposition to your posting will be most likely dropped. However in some cases where the forum members are highly educated and can counter your disinformation with real facts and linked postings, you can then 'abort' the consensus cracking by initiating a 'forum slide.'
Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION'
Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a 'RESOURCE BURN.' By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to 'drive in the wedge.' By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.
Technique #4 - 'INFORMATION COLLECTION'
Information collection is also a very effective method to determine the psychological level of the forum members, and to gather intelligence that can be used against them. In this technique in a light and positive environment a 'show you mine so me yours' posting is initiated. From the number of replies and the answers that are provided much statistical information can be gathered. An example is to post your 'favourite weapon' and then encourage other members of the forum to showcase what they have. In this matter it can be determined by reverse proration what percentage of the forum community owns a firearm, and or a illegal weapon. This same method can be used by posing as one of the form members and posting your favourite 'technique of operation.' From the replies various methods that the group utilizes can be studied and effective methods developed to stop them from their activities.
Technique #5 - 'ANGER TROLLING'
Statistically, there is always a percentage of the forum posters who are more inclined to violence. In order to determine who these individuals are, it is a requirement to present a image to the forum to deliberately incite a strong psychological reaction. From this the most violent in the group can be effectively singled out for reverse IP location and possibly local enforcement tracking. To accomplish this only requires posting a link to a video depicting a local police officer massively abusing his power against a very innocent individual. Statistically of the million or so police officers in America there is always one or two being caught abusing there powers and the taping of the activity can be then used for intelligence gathering purposes - without the requirement to 'stage' a fake abuse video. This method is extremely effective, and the more so the more abusive the video can be made to look. Sometimes it is useful to 'lead' the forum by replying to your own posting with your own statement of violent intent, and that you 'do not care what the authorities think!!' inflammation. By doing this and showing no fear it may be more effective in getting the more silent and self-disciplined violent intent members of the forum to slip and post their real intentions. This can be used later in a court of law during prosecution.
Technique #6 - 'GAINING FULL CONTROL'
It is important to also be harvesting and continually maneuvering for a forum moderator position. Once this position is obtained, the forum can then be effectively and quietly controlled by deleting unfavourable postings - and one can eventually steer the forum into complete failure and lack of interest by the general public. This is the 'ultimate victory' as the forum is no longer participated with by the general public and no longer useful in maintaining their freedoms. Depending on the level of control you can obtain, you can deliberately steer a forum into defeat by censoring postings, deleting memberships, flooding, and or accidentally taking the forum offline. By this method the forum can be quickly killed. However it is not always in the interest to kill a forum as it can be converted into a 'honey pot' gathering center to collect and misdirect newcomers and from this point be completely used for your control for your agenda purposes.
CONCLUSION
Remember these techniques are only effective if the forum participants DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM. Once they are aware of these techniques the operation can completely fail, and the forum can become uncontrolled. At this point other avenues must be considered such as initiating a false legal precidence to simply have the forum shut down and taken offline. This is not desirable as it then leaves the enforcement agencies unable to track the percentage of those in the population who always resist attempts for control against them. Many other techniques can be utilized and developed by the individual and as you develop further techniques of infiltration and control it is imperative to share then with HQ.
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Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
Note: The first rule and last five (or six, depending on situation) rules are generally not directly within the ability of the traditional disinfo artist to apply. These rules are generally used more directly by those at the leadership, key players, or planning level of the criminal conspiracy or conspiracy to cover up.
1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what you know, don't discuss it -- especially if you are a public figure, news anchor, etc. If it's not reported, it didn't happen, and you never have to deal with the issues.
2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the 'How dare you!' gambit.
3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method which works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such 'arguable rumors'. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a 'wild rumor' from a 'bunch of kids on the Internet' which can have no basis in fact.
4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sɛҳuąƖ deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism, reasoning -- simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent's viewpoint.
7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could be taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.
8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough 'jargon' and 'minutia' to illustrate you are 'one who knows', and simply say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man -- usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with - a kind of investment for the future should the matter not be so easily contained.) Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually then be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues -- so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.
11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor matter or element of the facts, take the 'high road' and 'confess' with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made -- but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities which, 'just isn't so.' Others can reinforce this on your behalf, later, and even publicly 'call for an end to the nonsense' because you have already 'done the right thing.' Done properly, this can garner sympathy and respect for 'coming clean' and 'owning up' to your mistakes without addressing more serious issues.
12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to lose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards or with an apparent deductive logic which forbears any actual material fact.
14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best with issues qualifying for rule 10.
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.
16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.
17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.
18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'
19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.
20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations -- as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.
21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed and unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable verdict is achieved, the matter can be considered officially closed. Usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking to frame a victim.
22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.
23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such as trials, create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract the multitudes.
24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of their character by release of blackmail information, or merely by destroying them financially, emotionally, or severely damaging their health.
25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.
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Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
1) Avoidance. They never actually discuss issues head-on or provide constructive input, generally avoiding citation of references or credentials. Rather, they merely imply this, that, and the other. Virtually everything about their presentation implies their authority and expert knowledge in the matter without any further justification for credibility.
2) Selectivity. They tend to pick and choose opponents carefully, either applying the hit-and-run approach against mere commentators supportive of opponents, or focusing heavier attacks on key opponents who are known to directly address issues. Should a commentator become argumentative with any success, the focus will shift to include the commentator as well.
3) Coincidental. They tend to surface suddenly and somewhat coincidentally with a new controversial topic with no clear prior record of participation in general discussions in the particular public arena involved. They likewise tend to vanish once the topic is no longer of general concern. They were likely directed or elected to be there for a reason, and vanish with the reason.
4) Teamwork. They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players will infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength.
5) Anti-conspiratorial. They almost always have disdain for 'conspiracy theorists' and, usually, for those who in any way believe JFK was not killed by LHO. Ask yourself why, if they hold such disdain for conspiracy theorists, do they focus on defending a single topic discussed in a NG focusing on cօռspιʀαcιҽs? One might think they would either be trying to make fools of everyone on every topic, or simply ignore the group they hold in such disdain.Or, one might more rightly conclude they have an ulterior motive for their actions in going out of their way to focus as they do.
6) Artificial Emotions. An odd kind of 'artificial' emotionalism and an unusually thick skin -- an ability to persevere and persist even in the face of overwhelming criticism and unacceptance. This likely stems from intelligence community training that, no matter how condemning the evidence, deny everything, and never become emotionally involved or reactive. The net result for a disinfo artist is that emotions can seem artificial.
Most people, if responding in anger, for instance, will express their animosity throughout their rebuttal. But disinfo types usually have trouble maintaining the 'image' and are hot and cold with respect to pretended emotions and their usually more calm or unemotional communications style. It's just a job, and they often seem unable to 'act their role in character' as well in a communications medium as they might be able in a real face-to-face conversation/confrontation. You might have outright rage and indignation one moment, ho-hum the next, and more anger later -- an emotional yo-yo.
With respect to being thick-skinned, no amount of criticism will deter them from doing their job, and they will generally continue their old disinfo patterns without any adjustments to criticisms of how obvious it is that they play that game -- where a more rational individual who truly cares what others think might seek to improve their communications style, substance, and so forth, or simply give up.
7) Inconsistent. There is also a tendency to make mistakes which betray their true self/motives. This may stem from not really knowing their topic, or it may be somewhat 'freudian', so to speak, in that perhaps they really root for the side of truth deep within.
I have noted that often, they will simply cite contradictory information which neutralizes itself and the author. For instance, one such player claimed to be a Navy pilot, but blamed his poor communicating skills (spelling, grammar, incoherent style) on having only a grade-school education. I'm not aware of too many Navy pilots who don't have a college degree. Another claimed no knowledge of a particular topic/situation but later claimed first-hand knowledge of it.
8) Time Constant. Recently discovered, with respect to News Groups, is the response time factor. There are three ways this can be seen to work, especially when the government or other empowered player is involved in a cover up operation:
a) ANY NG posting by a targeted proponent for truth can result in an IMMEDIATE response. The government and other empowered players can afford to pay people to sit there and watch for an opportunity to do some damage. SINCE DISINFO IN A NG ONLY WORKS IF THE READER SEES IT - FAST RESPONSE IS CALLED FOR, or the visitor may be swayed towards truth.
b) When dealing in more direct ways with a disinformationalist, such as email, DELAY IS CALLED FOR - there will usually be a minimum of a 48-72 hour delay. This allows a sit-down team discussion on response strategy for best effect, and even enough time to 'get permission' or instruction from a formal chain of command.
c) In the NG example 1) above, it will often ALSO be seen that bigger guns are drawn and fired after the same 48-72 hours delay - the team approach in play. This is especially true when the targeted truth seeker or their comments are considered more important with respect to potential to reveal truth. Thus, a serious truth sayer will be attacked twice for the same sin.
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How to Spot a Spy (Cointelpro Agent)
One way to neutralize a potential activist is to get them to be in a group that does all the wrong things. Why?
1) The message doesn't get out.
2) A lot of time is wasted
3) The activist is frustrated and discouraged
4) Nothing good is accomplished.
FBI and Police Informers and Infiltrators will infest any group and they have phoney activist organizations established.
Their purpose is to prevent any real movement for justice or eco-peace from developing in this country.
Agents come in small, medium or large. They can be of any ethnic background. They can be male or female.
The actual size of the group or movement being infiltrated is irrelevant. It is the potential the movement has for becoming large which brings on the spies and saboteurs.
This booklet lists tactics agents use to slow things down, foul things up, destroy the movement and keep tabs on activists.
It is the agent's job to keep the activist from quitting such a group, thus keeping him/her under control.
In some situations, to get control, the agent will tell the activist:
"You're dividing the movement."
[Here, I have added the psychological reasons as to WHY this maneuver works to control people]
This invites guilty feelings. Many people can be controlled by guilt. The agents begin relationships with activists behind a well-developed mask of "dedication to the cause." Because of their often declared dedication, (and actions designed to prove this), when they criticize the activist, he or she - being truly dedicated to the movement - becomes convinced that somehow, any issues are THEIR fault. This is because a truly dedicated person tends to believe that everyone has a conscience and that nobody would dissimulate and lie like that "on purpose." It's amazing how far agents can go in manipulating an activist because the activist will constantly make excuses for the agent who regularly declares their dedication to the cause. Even if they do, occasionally, suspect the agent, they will pull the wool over their own eyes by rationalizing: "they did that unconsciously... they didn't really mean it... I can help them by being forgiving and accepting " and so on and so forth.
The agent will tell the activist:
"You're a leader!"
This is designed to enhance the activist's self-esteem. His or her narcissistic admiration of his/her own activist/altruistic intentions increase as he or she identifies with and consciously admires the altruistic declarations of the agent which are deliberately set up to mirror those of the activist.
This is "malignant pseudoidentification." It is the process by which the agent consciously imitates or simulates a certain behavior to foster the activist's identification with him/her, thus increasing the activist's vulnerability to exploitation. The agent will simulate the more subtle self-concepts of the activist.
Activists and those who have altruistic self-concepts are most vulnerable to malignant pseudoidentification especially during work with the agent when the interaction includes matter relating to their competency, autonomy, or knowledge.
The goal of the agent is to increase the activist's general empathy for the agent through pseudo-identification with the activist's self-concepts.
The most common example of this is the agent who will compliment the activist for his competency or knowledge or value to the movement. On a more subtle level, the agent will simulate affects and mannerisms of the activist which promotes identification via mirroring and feelings of "twinship". It is not unheard of for activists, enamored by the perceived helpfulness and competence of a good agent, to find themselves considering ethical violations and perhaps, even illegal behavior, in the service of their agent/handler.
The activist's "felt quality of perfection" [self-concept] is enhanced, and a strong empathic bond is developed with the agent through his/her imitation and simulation of the victim's own narcissistic investments. [self-concepts] That is, if the activist knows, deep inside, their own dedication to the cause, they will project that onto the agent who is "mirroring" them.
The activist will be deluded into thinking that the agent shares this feeling of identification and bonding. In an activist/social movement setting, the adversarial roles that activists naturally play vis a vis the establishment/government, fosters ongoing processes of intrapsychic splitting so that "twinship alliances" between activist and agent may render whole sectors or reality testing unavailable to the activist. They literally "lose touch with reality."
Activists who deny their own narcissistic investments [do not have a good idea of their own self-concepts and that they ARE concepts] and consciously perceive themselves (accurately, as it were) to be "helpers" endowed with a special amount of altruism are exceedingly vulnerable to the affective (emotional) simulation of the accomplished agent.
Empathy is fostered in the activist through the expression of quite visible affects. The presentation of tearfulness, sadness, longing, fear, remorse, and guilt, may induce in the helper-oriented activist a strong sense of compassion, while unconsciously enhancing the activist's narcissistic investment in self as the embodiment of goodness.
The agent's expresssion of such simulated affects may be quite compelling to the observer and difficult to distinguish from deep emotion.
It can usually be identified by two events, however:
First, the activist who has analyzed his/her own narcissistic roots and is aware of his/her own potential for being "emotionally hooked," will be able to remain cool and unaffected by such emotional outpourings by the agent.
As a result of this unaffected, cool, attitude, the Second event will occur: The agent will recompensate much too quickly following such an affective expression leaving the activist with the impression that "the play has ended, the curtain has fallen," and the imposture, for the moment, has finished. The agent will then move quickly to another activist/victim.
The fact is, the movement doesn't need leaders, it needs MOVERS. "Follow the leader" is a waste of time.
A good agent will want to meet as often as possible. He or she will talk a lot and say little. One can expect an onslaught of long, unresolved discussions.
Some agents take on a pushy, arrogant, or defensive manner:
1) To disrupt the agenda
2) To side-track the discussion
3) To interrupt repeatedly
4) To feign ignorance
5) To make an unfounded accusation against a person.
Calling someone a racist, for example. This tactic is used to discredit a person in the eyes of all other group members.
Saboteurs
Some saboteurs pretend to be activists. She or he will ....
1) Write encyclopedic flyers (in the present day, websites)
2) Print flyers in English only.
3) Have demonstrations in places where no one cares.
4) Solicit funding from rich people instead of grass roots support
5) Display banners with too many words that are confusing.
6) Confuse issues.
7) Make the wrong demands.
Cool Compromise the goal.
9) Have endless discussions that waste everyone's time. The agent may accompany the endless discussions with drinking, pot smoking or other amusement to slow down the activist's work.
Provocateurs
1) Want to establish "leaders" to set them up for a fall in order to stop the movement.
2) Suggest doing foolish, illegal things to get the activists in trouble.
3) Encourage militancy.
4) Want to taunt the authorities.
5) Attempt to make the activist compromise their values.
6) Attempt to instigate violence. Activisim ought to always be non-violent.
7) Attempt to provoke revolt among people who are ill-prepared to deal with the reaction of the authorities to such violence.
Informants
1) Want everyone to sign up and sing in and sign everything.
2) Ask a lot of questions (gathering data).
3) Want to know what events the activist is planning to attend.
4) Attempt to make the activist defend him or herself to identify his or her beliefs, goals, and level of committment.
Recruiting
Legitimate activists do not subject people to hours of persuasive dialog. Their actions, beliefs, and goals speak for themselves.
Groups that DO recruit are missionaries, military, and fake political parties or movements set up by agents.
Surveillance
ALWAYS assume that you are under surveillance.
At this point, if you are NOT under surveillance, you are not a very good activist!
Scare Tactics
They use them.
Such tactics include slander, defamation, threats, getting close to disaffected or minimally committed fellow activists to persuade them (via psychological tactics described above) to turn against the movement and give false testimony against their former compatriots. They will plant illegal substances on the activist and set up an arrest; they will plant false information and set up "exposure," they will send incriminating letters [emails] in the name of the activist; and more; they will do whatever society will allow.
This booklet in no way covers all the ways agents use to sabotage the lives of sincere an dedicated activists.
If an agent is "exposed," he or she will be transferred or replaced.
COINTELPRO is still in operation today under a different code name. It is no longer placed on paper where it can be discovered through the freedom of information act.
The FBI counterintelligence program's stated purpose: To expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, and otherwise neutralize individuals who the FBI categorize as opposed to the National Interests. "National Security" means the FBI's security from the people ever finding out the vicious things it does in violation of people's civil liberties.
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
Strong, credible allegations of high-level criminal activity can bring down a government. When the government lacks an effective, fact-based defense, other techniques must be employed. The success of these techniques depends heavily upon a cooperative, compliant press and a mere token opposition party.
1. Dummy up. If it's not reported, if it's not news, it didn't happen.
2. Wax indignant. This is also known as the "How dare you?" gambit.
3. Characterize the charges as "rumors" or, better yet, "wild rumors." If, in spite of the news blackout, the public is still able to learn about the suspicious facts, it can only be through "rumors." (If they tend to believe the "rumors" it must be because they are simply "paranoid" or "hysterical.")
4. Knock down straw men. Deal only with the weakest aspects of the weakest charges. Even better, create your own straw men. Make up wild rumors (or plant false stories) and give them lead play when you appear to debunk all the charges, real and fanciful alike.
5. Call the skeptics names like "conspiracy theorist," "nutcase," "ranter," "kook," "crackpot," and, of course, "rumor monger." Be sure, too, to use heavily loaded verbs and adjectives when characterizing their charges and defending the "more reasonable" government and its defenders. You must then carefully avoid fair and open debate with any of the people you have thus maligned. For insurance, set up your own "skeptics" to shoot down.
6. Impugn motives. Attempt to marginalize the critics by suggesting strongly that they are not really interested in the truth but are simply pursuing a partisan political agenda or are out to make money (compared to over-compensated adherents to the government line who, presumably, are not).
7. Invoke authority. Here the controlled press and the sham opposition can be very useful.
8. Dismiss the charges as "old news."
9. Come half-clean. This is also known as "confession and avoidance" or "taking the limited hangout route." This way, you create the impression of candor and honesty while you admit only to relatively harmless, less-than-criminal "mistakes." This stratagem often requires the embrace of a fall-back position quite different from the one originally taken. With effective damage control, the fall-back position need only be peddled by stooge skeptics to carefully limited markets.
10. Characterize the crimes as impossibly complex and the truth as ultimately unknowable.
11. Reason backward, using the deductive method with a vengeance. With thoroughly rigorous deduction, troublesome evidence is irrelevant. E.g. We have a completely free press. If evidence exists that the Vince Foster "ѕυιcιdє" note was forged, they would have reported it. They haven't reported it so there is no such evidence. Another variation on this theme involves the likelihood of a conspiracy leaker and a press who would report the leak.
12. Require the skeptics to solve the crime completely. E.g. If Foster was murdered, who did it and why?
13. Change the subject. This technique includes creating and/or publicizing distractions.
14. Lightly report incriminating facts, and then make nothing of them. This is sometimes referred to as "bump and run" reporting.
15. Baldly and brazenly lie. A favorite way of doing this is to attribute the "facts" furnished the public to a plausible-sounding, but anonymous, source.
16. Expanding further on numbers 4 and 5, have your own stooges "expose" scandals and champion popular causes. Their job is to pre-empt real opponents and to play 99-yard football. A variation is to pay rich people for the job who will pretend to spend their own money.
17. Flood the Internet with agents. This is the answer to the question, "What could possibly motivate a person to spend hour upon hour on Internet news groups defending the government and/or the press and harassing genuine critics?" Don t the authorities have defenders enough in all the newspapers, magazines, radio, and television? One would think refusing to print critical letters and screening out serious callers or dumping them from radio talk shows would be control enough, but, obviously, it is not.
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Perhaps with Fr. Scott's return we will have evening adult catechism classes once again. His series on the problems with V2 was very good. He used The Errors of Vatican II (http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/2003_January/errors_of_vatican_II.htm) as his outline for the talks.
That sounds like wishful thinking. There has not been a single mention of the errors of Vatican II from the pulpit of OLOS by a priest in over a year. Not a single one.
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Which choir loft are you referring to? There are already 2 icons in the choir loft, one of the Madonna with Child and another of the Sacred Heart. I'm a little confused....
We relay the story as told at no time did we mention paintings or Icons or for that matter if there were already statues there
Though it seems to us you support the barren look or you would not have used the fact that there were already holy reminders there as an argument
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This is called "Priorities". We all should use these. The problem here is that you have different priorities and less information. It's easy to question authorities based on our limited information. Just as someone in customer service can question the actions of a CEO, you are judging based on ridiculously limited information.
My gosh. Who knew that statues would cause such a problem. We're really grasping at straws to call Phoenix a dysfunctional parish because they don't have the funds to purchase new statues. How many of the people complaining here actually spent time in front of the statues that they DEMAND be restored? I don't recall seeing anyone, so that is curious to say the least.
Because, everything that you see here is 100% speculation. It's a disgruntled customer service rep complaining/speculating about the decisions of his superiors. Guys like hollingsworth have had problems with the SSPX since its inception, so the SSPX is literally incapable of doing anything that isn't evil in his mind.
Let's think about the side altars. White marble with a green marble inlay. No one here might be an interior designer, but old styled and fully colored statues just won't look good. Even the pictures posted by someone here of how the altars were previously set up show that they had plain white statues.
"Priorities" ? Is that what you call what is being done?
we call it a host of other names
Lies : Parishioners were told FROM THE PULPIT that the statues from the old church would come over. Parishioners were told again FROM THE PULPIT the new church would have windows thanks to funding specifically for that
Manipulation : the way they opened up a book closet right in the hall as a constant reminder letting the parish know if they want a proper store pay the debt The placing and removing of statues.. manipulation ,The horrible sound system want better ? pay the debt Fact is they moved us into that church before it was ready because they had run out of money with their over priced and unwarranted Novus Ordo changes in hopes to manipulate the parish into paying even more then our pledges so as to have a finished church
We could go on & on but it has all been said before
We will say this though How dare you question or faith or prayer life because we question our church ...We were building that parish from nothing before you knew where OLoS was even at
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5 priests? And no adult education?
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Thou shalt not lend to thy brother money to usury, nor corn, nor any other thing:
Douay Rheims Bible
? Deuteronomy 23:19 ?
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Bottom line: In your first post you pretended that statues were the only issue. I provided a list of 21 issues.
That you are trying to make this thread about me is a solid indication that you are just another disinformation agent.
If you are a sycophant cultist, nobody would expect you to have been "killed" or blown off.
This is called another ad hominem or simply poisoning the well and doesn't address the actual point. You haven't even tried, but you KNOW that you'll be blown off
There you go reading my heart, mind, and soul. Will you bilobate next?
Do you think that my criticism was born of thin air? Of course I have repeatedly attempted to discuss matters with the priests and have been blown off every single time.
How does one judges acts if one is not reminded of doctrine and morals and relevant errors?
This should be both obvious and simple. Doctrine is not taught in light of error. It stands on its own by its own merits. I don't need to know how horribly irreverent the Norvus Ordo Mass is at its core to be taught that I should be reverent during Mass.
Instead of trying to divert the thread, focus on your very first post. You insinuated that statues were the only issue and I was able to assemble a list of almost 2 dozen complaints. Airy-fairy sermons were among the complaints. You like airy-fairy sermons, then you should be happy. Some of us are not happy about airy-fairy sermons that have been sanitized of all reference to Vatican 2 errors, immodesty, the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan's cultural and theological influence, etc.
Lucky you. Several here heard it and have so testified. Several here have also prayed before the now-missing statues and have seen others pray before the now-missing statues.
At best, people would kneel before the Pieta (which is still present and actually MORE available. While statues are obviously nice to have, they are also just that. NICE to have. And here's the kicker. Let's say that they brought the statues out. Would this actually mean that something "right" was done? Given how you post, you'd manage to turn it in to another opportunity to bash the priests.
Instead of trying to divert the thread, focus on your very first post. You insinuated that statues were the only issue and I was able to assemble a list of almost 2 dozen complaints. #3 on the list was Fr. Wegner's railing against "renters."
Fr. Wegner repeatedly insisted that it was "justice" to pay back the money that was loaned by a priest at interest. There is no nuance that excuses finding "justice" in usury.
The quote is a verbatim quote.
And yet....are we being charged interest? If this was indeed Fr. Wegner's point, why wouldn't be paying at an interest rate?
Just as with Fr. Chavarria's sermon, you intentionally ignore what is stated as a whole and focus on one aspect.
As if slipping toxic teaching into a sermon is OK? In point of fact, Fr. Wegner elaborated on the justice of paying interest to the priest for his loan of money. Fr. Wegner therefore elaborated on the "justice" of usury, a mortal sin.
Are you seriously saying that justifying usury is OK because it was "just one aspect" of the sermon? Go figure.
The play was moving forward without one word explaining who Oscar Wilde was—until a hue and cry by parents prompted a few words in preface. We are short Catholic plays by Catholic authors who are not infamous?
Perhaps you can do that. Fiddler on the Roof clearly portrays Jews as innocent victims. Again, are we short Catholic plays by Catholic authors who are not infamous? You are so blinded by false obedience to the cult that you can't see past it.
The complaint was made by one person who stoked the fires of nothing. You're dodging my point in any event.
This isn't about obedience. It's a school play that the TEACHERS put on, rewrote, and worked on. Not the priests. This is YOUR opinion versus another. You just don't like it when someone has the "audacity" to challenge you on it. And your response is to simply attack me because you don't have an argument to make beyond "I'm right and you're not". Well done.
Again, you are the one who pretended there was only one issue, statues. I provided list of 21 issues. Obviously you do NOT have your finger on the pulse of the parish. I have made a few snide comparisons, but the bottom line is this: I provided the evidence that your ploy was risible. There is far more than statues, bothering some parishioners.
Really, "one person"? What demon channeled that lie to you? Several parents and one teacher complained. The issue was substantive and when forced to do so, Fr. Riccomini reluctantly responded. If there was no substantive argument as you claim, why was there a preface?
I see. The word of Catholic priests is worthless unless sealed as kosher by rabbis and lawyers.
You assume the misappropriation is acceptable because you are a sap.
Hyperbole and ad hominen at the best here.....
I assume that the decision to use the funds elsewhere was made by people who had more information than either you or I. As I stated, it is unfortunate, but the building of a church takes a LONG time. You simply don't have an informed opinion. You just have an opinion that doesn't have any more or less merit than my own.
No hyperbole. You are the one who insisted that donations earmarked for windows could be spent elsewhere because a written contract was not part of the donation, so you are the one who tells us that the word of a priest is not good enough to trust without lawyers sealing the promise.
It was your straw man argument that statues were the issue. There are almost two dozen issues. The sound system among them.
Your use of the word "issues" is laughable. Disagreements for sure. But issues? Give me a break. You mean to tell me that a hired professional that made false promises and didn't do a decent job is indicative of a problem with OLS itself? As I initially stated, you are REALLY reaching here.
Instead of trying to divert the thread, focus on your very first post. You insinuated that statues were the only issue and I was able to assemble a list of almost 2 dozen complaints. #8 on the list was the sound system.
Your counter-evidence? Maybe the mealy-mouthed statement from the SSPX rabbi that the complaints weren't about crimes committed "in the church or camps"? Is it your position that Fr. Crane demonstrated exemplary care for children when he selected a camp counselor who was booted from the seminary for mutilating his own genitals??? Is it your position that Fr. Crane demonstrated exemplary care for children when he ignored warnings about crimes against children because the crimes didn't occur "in the church or camp"???
The counter evidence is simply a lack of evidence and a lack of legal action against Fr. Crane at Sloniker's sentencing.
And how would Fr. Crane have known about his past? Do you really think that the SSPX has the man power to maintain a system of all the failed seminarians and alerts the entire district about them?
Considering that Sloniker was dismissed from his position before anything was brought to the public's attention, it would seem that something was done, no?
Evidently you have not read the public record carefully. Fr. Crane admitted that he ignored the warning and explained why—he decided that the child just didn't want to go to the camp (and be sodomized).
If there is no "warning system" to alert priests about dangerous perverts that is prima facie malfeasance—exactly the point that is being made by so many of us.
Further, as has been adduced here by others, Idaho law required Fr. Crane to report the incident described by the child. It is a crime. Just because a person is not charged with a crime does not mean a crime was not committed. How do you spell Hillary Clinton?
It was your straw man argument that statues were the issue. There are almost two dozen issues. Disbanding the Holy Name Society among them.
Given that the Holy Name Society no longer "exists" because it is inactive, I would say that this is a non-issue.
The issue was important enough to some here that they mentioned it and so it still stands as evidence against your ploy of pretending that statues were the only issue.
It was your straw man argument that statues were the issue. There are almost two dozen issues. The lack of evening Masses among them.
And another abuse of the word "issue". Once again, this is your preference versus the majority. Another non-issue
Pilpul, Rabbi, pilpul. The issue was important enough to some here that they mentioned it and so it still stands as evidence against your ploy of pretending that statues were the only issue.
I see. Because you don't people praying before statues and don't see priests lounging, it is a lie when others see people praying before statues and see priests lounging???
Many of us can testify to day after day seeing the priests playing baseball and basketball, yet a parish of 5-600 families and 5 priests in residence has a nominal 2 hours, 50 minutes total confession time. I also note that since the complaint was posted here, the Sunday limits on confessions are no longer posted, only the start times.
"All Sunday morning," you say. That is a lie.
What do I want? Daily confession. As I said there are 5 priests who can sacrifice some of their play time.
Given that 99% of what you state is speculation and personal experience, I feel that's fair to do the same as far as the statues are concerned. Here's the thing. The reason why people didn't really get up and go pray in front of the missing statues was likely a logistical problem as the sanctuary didn't really lend itself to it.
And, you can't even back up your own statements. For example, you say that priests are "lounging". This is bold faced lie as you would have to have exclusive access to the priory itself to know how the priests spend their time. But you don't and when challenged on it, you ignored your original statement.
And yes, priests do play baseball. MY GOSH! THEY CAN'T DO THAT!! Never mind that the Archbishop himself stressed the importance of priests taking the time to recreate. I guess you know better, right?
I've never not made it in to confession in the past 4 months. SHOOT! I forgot that as a cult member, I've been brainwashed in to thinking that they make enough time for most people to make it. Or, I can always go up to a priest and ask to have my confession heard, if the need is dire. But that's not the point. The point is that it isn't up to YOUR standards. Nothing else matters.
As if the long lines of disappointed penitents are in our imagination? It is amusing hypocrisy that you denigrate the experiences of posters here while you exalt your own experiences. If you don't see it, it doesn't exist and couldn't possibly exist. Anyone who does see it is a liar.
"All Sunday morning," you say. That is a lie.
Also, you wrongly insist that the laity are never in the rectory, so how do you know the priests do not lounge? Do you live in the rectory? What are you telling us, Rabbi? or is it "Father"?
There were 7am, 9am, and 11:15am Masses on Sundays in the old church. There are now a 7:30am and a 10am Mass on Sundays. Last time I checked 2 < 3. So much for your gratuitous lie.
This one is genuinely funny. Let's see. Old parish held what? 200 people? Give or take? The new church holds 500+? Easily? Do some "high level" math here that goes beyond 2<3.
The NEED for 3 Masses came about when the population of the parish was such that the two Masses were jammed. So, the alleviate this problem, the added the third Mass.
So, YES. They did drop the third Mass because there was no longer a need. This is neither a good nor a bad thing. What you're trying to imply is that the ACCESS to Mass has diminished. Which is simply wrong and is the gratuitous lie.
How тαℓмυdic to change your tune when you get caught in a ridiculous lie. In response to criticism "(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated," you responded, "13. Simply false." Two is less than three… "simply."
Even if we indulge your equivocation, as far as "access," fewer time choices is less access.
On your say so? Sorry, you have already demonstrated that you are an untrustworthy supporter who will even claim that 2 is not less than 3.
As opposed to yours? Support your claim. Oh shoot! You can't because it is speculation. A decision to remove a priest is not made by the laity. You love to bash on the priests for ONLY doing what their superiors tell them to do, but you seem to forget those statements when it best fits your agenda.
Why pretend that I am the only one to have given testimony here, Rabbi?
Influential parishioners sometimes make the mistake of thinking that we all agree with their methods and so they make the mistake of blabbing inconvenient revelations.
I don't even know who most of the posters are in this thread. To insist there is a conspiracy among us is you grasping at straws.
Read the testimonials in the thread. In this case I merely report what can be found here, plenty of evidence that statues are not the only problem.
The devotions haven't been "suppressed". The same public devotion that was offered for years in the old church is still offered today. It's a misuse of the word which you do tend to do.
Your gratuitous assertion is gratuitously rejected.
Fr. Burfitt did it with joy written all over his face... and we all were home at an early hour.
The only thing that the children did was go up in front of him and state their saint name. Not exactly the highlight of the evening. And, frankly, it couldn't be simply because it wasn't practical.
Having attended in those better days under Fr. Burfitt, I saw more than "stating their saint name," but also summaries about the saints' lives suitable to the age of the child. Of course, if you didn't see it, it couldn't have happened and anyone who says otherwise is a "liar."
Good to hear that you agree that massage parlor certificates (plural!) are not apropos a benefit dedicated to St. Joseph.
Sigh....the St. Joseph Table has been used as a fundraiser for years. The contents of which don't weigh in to that at all. The dedication to St. Joseph is that people donate what they are able to offer for to help the school. I must have missed the catechism class where massages were sinful or generally inappropriate, though.
I thought we agreed that massage parlor certificates were inappropriate. Have you changed your mind about such occasions of sin? (cf. Baltimore Catechism)
Fr. Wegner railed that as a matter of decorum, not gardening, it was inappropriate for the children to be playing near the holy statue.
And yet you complained about the bulletin announcement which SPECIFICALLY stated that it was due to the newness of the grass. And, technically, as a matter of decorum, it isn't. And yet, when the grass was/is strong enough, one saw that there was no longer an announcement about staying off the grass. Odd how we forget these small details
Fr. Wegner indicated from the pulpit that it was unseemly for children to play around the statue. I never cited the bulletin as the source of the decorum issue.
Apparently there are those who consider themselves insiders.
And you still won't man up and report it
If you have bait, go fishing, Rabbi.
I see time for sports and lounging. Time is not the issue. To quote you, it is a matter of "preference" and "priorities."
Yes. Recreation (not the lounging that you lie about) is allowed and recommended. But, here's the funny thing. The adult catechism was between the Masses. Do you see priest's lounging or playing sports in its stead? No. But, you twist reality to support your bogus claims.
Fr. Scott's adult catechism was Thursday at 7pm, Rabbi.
You are the one who insinuated that the issue was merely statues, insinuated that nobody prayed before the statues, and then called all critical testimony "speculation."
You were called on your horse droppings/straw man argument. My counter-evidence centered on your straw man arguments, not you personally. Hence "ad hominem" is added to your list of lies.
The claims that were being made in regards to the statues where that the parish was being held "hostage" to the debt that was owed. There is a large difference between stating that OLS doesn't have the funds to purchase new statues and stating that the awful priests are using the statues as a means of control and manipulation for some unstated (but definitely awful and underhanded) reason.
My point is that the majority of your complaints are either a difference in opinion, outrage based on uninformed speculation, or simply blown well out of proportion.
BTW, an ad hominem attack is one where you attack the person, and not the argument. To call someone a "newbie" in a dismissive manner has no reflection whatsoever on what was stated. To say that I am a sycophant cultist is an attack on me personally. Those are classic examples of ad hominem attacks. You do yourself no favors by resorting to those
Get over yourself.
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Re-focusing on the issues
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) misappropriation of donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports and lounge around
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) clandestinely running off Fr. Riccomini by the "usual suspects" because Fr. Riccomini refused to have a girls volleyball team
(15) suppression of devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty supercilious attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) suppression of the adult catechism classes,
and, yes,
(21) the statues.
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Thou shalt not lend to thy brother money to usury, nor corn, nor any other thing:
Douay Rheims Bible
? Deuteronomy 23:19 ?
the mortal sin of usury
http://judaism.is/usury.html
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Perhaps, by now the priest would back off any demand for interest and just make it clear that being paid back the principal would be fine. Wouldn't it just be a matter of going to the priest with the complaint about the usury so as to help him see the light and then he could "gracefully" back off any demand for interest? Or has this already been tried?
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The title of this thread is a "OLOS - A Church DYING to be new."
And that is exactly what has happened to OLOS. It is DYING.
The Society itself is DYING.
Bp. Fellay had a mutiny on his watch. Due to his failure of leadership he lost a HUGE number of his priests from all over the world. He should have stepped down, or been forcibly replaced, as Superior General by his fellow Bishops, but he was not.
The fruits of the failure to replace Bp. Fellay in 2012 are now catastrophic to the Society as a whole. Bp. Fellay has (rightly) lost the confidence of the faithful, and his new orientation of the Society due to his slow-dance with Rome shows neutered priests who no longer criticize the REGULAR atrocities coming out of Rome.
The fruits of Bp. Fellay show as an incredibly uncharitable and condescending attitude toward the faithful and a Stasi-like atmosphere in the parish of OLOS where parishioners are afraid to speak up and talk about any changes happening - much less actually speak (out loud!) about the pink elephant in the living room - the deal with Rome.
The deal with Rome which NOBODY wants.
But, no matter to Bp. Fellay - he continues apace with his "dream" as he pridefully feels he and his Society are to be the "Savior" to the Church itself.
The fruits of Bp. Fellay show up as families leaving the parish and scattering to parts unknown, a nearly FIFTY PERCENT drop in donations, and several families taking their children out of the school this year.
The fruits of Bp. Fellay show up in people like Dogma87.
Dogma's comments are just another example of Bp. Fellay's "new" Society - here is a parishioner who has become overly comfortable and doesn't want to risk it all by calling out the changes taking place in front of his very eyes. So comfortable and so uncharitable is he that he will lash out with anger at any other parishioner who points out the changes happening by calling them an "ungrateful troublemaker" or even worse, minimizing something as serious as a priest's involvement in a child being injured by a pedophile.
As I predicted earlier, after the deal is announced people like Dogma87 will become the most severe persecutors of Traditional Catholics who stay outside of Rome.
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I Think you should remove #11 since
Before 1953, Mass could not be celebrated after 12 noon. In 1953, Pius XII allowed Masses to be celebrated in the evening, but not daily. On feast days and Holy Days of Obligation, yes; but not every day.
Christus Dominus Pope Pius XII issued on January 6, 1953:
Rule VI. If the circuмstance calls for it as necessary, We grant to the local Ordinaries the right to permit the celebration of Mass in the evening, as we said, but in such wise that the Mass shall not begin before four o'clock in the afternoon, on holy days of obligation still observed, on those which formerly were observed, on the first Friday of every month, and also on those days on which solemn celebrations are held with a large attendance, and also, in addition to these days, on one day a week; with the requirement that the priest observe a fast of three hours from solid food and alcoholic beverages, and of one hour from non-alcoholic beverages. At these Masses the faithful may approach the Holy Table, observing the same rule as regards the Eucharistic fast, the presumption of Canon 857 remaining in force.
so in reality evening masses can't be celebrated unless there was permission already given by the bishop of Phoenix before '62
that being said, it seems from what you have posted that this was again for the convenience of the priests and not because they are upholding the law
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My question still hasn't been answered.
I think there are already 2 large icons/paintings in the choir loft. Is there another choir loft the poster is referring to?
If you're not "happy" with the church, why do you keep attending?
I'm just curious. I feel like there is something deeper here than just you being upset about the statuary or that the Pieta isn't where you think it should be.
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My question still hasn't been answered.
I think there are already 2 large icons/paintings in the choir loft. Is there another choir loft the poster is referring to?
If you're not "happy" with the church, why do you keep attending?
I'm just curious. I feel like there is something deeper here than just you being upset about the statuary or that the Pieta isn't where you think it should be.
I have not been in the choir loft, so I cannot post and have not posted specifically about the choir loft.
Why would you ass-u-me we are not assisting Mass elsewhere according to our respective schedules and preferences?
Besides, we are not donatists. Even bad priests still confect valid sacraments.
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If you're not "happy" with the church, why do you keep attending?
I'm just curious. I feel like there is something deeper here than just you being upset about the statuary or that the Pieta isn't where you think it should be.
Of course it is deeper than that.
I'm just curious. Why do you studiously ignore the obvious, deeper problem?
It is DYING.
The Society itself is DYING.
Bp. Fellay had a mutiny on his watch. Due to his failure of leadership he lost a HUGE number of his priests from all over the world. He should have stepped down, or been forcibly replaced, as Superior General by his fellow Bishops, but he was not.
The fruits of the failure to replace Bp. Fellay in 2012 are now catastrophic to the Society as a whole. Bp. Fellay has (rightly) lost the confidence of the faithful, and his new orientation of the Society due to his slow-dance with Rome shows neutered priests who no longer criticize the REGULAR atrocities coming out of Rome.
The fruits of Bp. Fellay show as an incredibly uncharitable and condescending attitude toward the faithful and a Stasi-like atmosphere in the parish of OLOS where parishioners are afraid to speak up and talk about any changes happening - much less actually speak (out loud!) about the pink elephant in the living room - the deal with Rome.
The deal with Rome which NOBODY wants.
But, no matter to Bp. Fellay - he continues apace with his "dream" as he pridefully feels he and his Society are to be the "Savior" to the Church itself.
The fruits of Bp. Fellay show up as families leaving the parish and scattering to parts unknown, a nearly FIFTY PERCENT drop in donations, and several families taking their children out of the school this year.
The fruits of Bp. Fellay show up in people like Dogma87.
Dogma's comments are just another example of Bp. Fellay's "new" Society - here is a parishioner who has become overly comfortable and doesn't want to risk it all by calling out the changes taking place in front of his very eyes. So comfortable and so uncharitable is he that he will lash out with anger at any other parishioner who points out the changes happening by calling them an "ungrateful troublemaker" or even worse, minimizing something as serious as a priest's involvement in a child being injured by a pedophile.
As I predicted earlier, after the deal is announced people like Dogma87 will become the most severe persecutors of Traditional Catholics who stay outside of Rome.
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There are almost two dozen issues that posters have complained about. Instead of addressing the problems, these are the sorts of responses we have seen:
• trying to make the thread about an individual poster
• inquiring who we are and assuming we have not left (partially or otherwise)
• diversions
• invoking "hatred" as our motivation
• minimizing the extent of the problems, individually and in aggregate
• gratuitous denials
• outright fabrications ("simply false")
• insisting that personal testimonies are "lies"
How sad.
Bottom line: Many problems, some great, some small, some arguable, some incontrovertible...
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) misappropriation of donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports and lounge around
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) clandestinely running off Fr. Riccomini by the "usual suspects" because Fr. Riccomini refused to have a girls volleyball team
(15) suppression of devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty supercilious attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) suppression of the adult catechism classes,
and, yes,
(21) the statues.
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Apparently OLOS parishioners are speaking out in the most traditional way, withholding donations. The "renters" were over $4,000 short with the June "rent."
deo gratias
and those brave souls who are willing to suffer the slings and arrows from the pulpit to do the right thing
We have heard that the parishioners may have to do with out a few other things while this protest continues
We have no word yet as to what that might be
Well it has taken awhile but have had word on a few things
If you notice it is a bit warmer in the faux-church as of late. It is because the thermostat has been raised and locked so as to save money
the candle holders in the vestibule have been empty for 2 weeks this is also a money saving measure
The church is hurting financially. The debt is not being met. One of the collections last week (we are not sure which one ) was less then 550.00 $
We feel it is only a matter of time before Fr. Stafki honorable concedes to the protest and begins work on the interior. To do otherwise would be a fight without winners (an attempt to win a fight through attrition ) After all a promise is a promise
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Money? :thinking:
The xSPX has access to multiple lines of Jєωιѕн finance.
It seems the faithful's financial embargo and management intractability are designed to villainize and break the resistors, to drive them out.
If it was me, I wouldn't worry about sticking around. After the "prelature" is announced, you're not going to want to be with them anyway.
Besides, the Phoenix chapel is destined to be the next trad orientation site for Novus ordo laymen and priests.
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My question still hasn't been answered.
I think there are already 2 large icons/paintings in the choir loft. Is there another choir loft the poster is referring to?
[/b]
If you're not "happy" with the church, why do you keep attending?
I'm just curious. I feel like there is something deeper here than just you being upset about the statuary or that the Pieta isn't where you think it should be.
Asked and answered
It does not have anything to do with the original post concerning the Choir loft as to whether there is or is not paintings up there ..but you know that don't you ? You are trying to make this about the loft when the point was about Fathers reaction to the question concerning the loft .A juvenile attempt at transference
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A juvenile attempt at transference.
A lot of that goes on here on CathInfo.
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So, how many of you are going to take Fr. Stafki up on his invitation to write in "advice" to the box in the vestibule?
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And here's another topic:
the not-small number of families whose kids are not returning to the school this year.
Discuss.
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PhxGroup should have plenty of "advice" to put in the box, right?
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This thread has gotten sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long, I'm going to start a new one so we can discuss our comments to Fr. Stafki.
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And here's another topic:
the not-small number of families whose kids are not returning to the school this year.
Discuss.
I never heard about that. All I hear is how wonderful it is and is growing by leaps and bounds. Why ARE people not returning? I have adult children who plan to put their daughter in next year so I'd really like to know about problems, aside from the absolutely outrageous tuition.
The priests keep saying how important it is to have a solid Catholic education but then they price it out of the reach of ordinary people :confused1:
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PhxGroup should have plenty of "advice" to put in the box, right?
No we will not be putting any "questions or suggestions" in that box. This is a not so veiled attempt at ending the protest with dialog,
To explain it all away in person one on one or over the phone to maximize their control over the situation
We have said before and repeat again Finish the interior of the faux-church AS YOU PROMISED ! No amount of excuses or discussion
is going to end the protest
Nor is the taking with one hand and giving with the other in an attempt to divide us going to work ( the expanding of the book closet while at the same time going on 4 weeks without a single candle in the vestibule)
Fr. Stafki talked today about meeting their financial obligations , We're sorry but what does that have to do with the windows ? They were paid for . What does it have to do with the statues, paintings and crucifixes NOT in the new faux-church ? they are in the basement ...the ones that are left that is
You want to talk about obligations How about your obligation to keep a promise made from the pulpit of the old church when you wanted our money
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PhxGroup should have plenty of "advice" to put in the box, right?
No we will not be putting any "questions or suggestions" in that box. This is a not so veiled attempt at ending the protest with dialog,
To explain it all away in person one on one or over the phone to maximize their control over the situation
We have said before and repeat again Finish the interior of the faux-church AS YOU PROMISED ! No amount of excuses or discussion
is going to end the protest
Nor is the taking with one hand and giving with the other in an attempt to divide us going to work ( the expanding of the book closet while at the same time going on 4 weeks without a single candle in the vestibule)
Fr. Stafki talked today about meeting their financial obligations , We're sorry but what does that have to do with the windows ? They were paid for . What does it have to do with the statues, paintings and crucifixes NOT in the new faux-church ? they are in the basement ...the ones that are left that is
You want to talk about obligations How about your obligation to keep a promise made from the pulpit of the old church when you wanted our money
There may be many legitimate gripes you may have, but exactly how will those you want to act on them do that if you refuse to tell them?
Is Fr. Stafki a mind reader?
Perhaps he or other have done many things wrong. I'm not a local, so I have no background on this. I have no dog in this fight, and certainly have no interest in defending their decisions on something I don't know anything about, but just reading this response here makes you sound unreasonable and unwilling to actually have any solution except your own.
Is not dialog exactly how you can express to Fr. Stakfi what you want done, or do you just want to keep protesting no matter what? How do you propose to inform Father of what you want done? What if what you are asking is impossible? Then what?
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And here's another topic:
the not-small number of families whose kids are not returning to the school this year.
Discuss.
I never heard about that. All I hear is how wonderful it is and is growing by leaps and bounds. Why ARE people not returning? I have adult children who plan to put their daughter in next year so I'd really like to know about problems, aside from the absolutely outrageous tuition.
The priests keep saying how important it is to have a solid Catholic education but then they price it out of the reach of ordinary people :confused1:
No, the school doesn't grow. It remains static or the numbers fall. This year they are losing about 15 students from several families.
Although, I am sure there is a small cadre of incoming kindergarteners from the various large families - hence, the reason the overall number of enrollees stays static and it doesn't grow.
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PhxGroup should have plenty of "advice" to put in the box, right?
No we will not be putting any "questions or suggestions" in that box. This is a not so veiled attempt at ending the protest with dialog,
To explain it all away in person one on one or over the phone to maximize their control over the situation
We have said before and repeat again Finish the interior of the faux-church AS YOU PROMISED ! No amount of excuses or discussion
is going to end the protest
Nor is the taking with one hand and giving with the other in an attempt to divide us going to work ( the expanding of the book closet while at the same time going on 4 weeks without a single candle in the vestibule)
Fr. Stafki talked today about meeting their financial obligations , We're sorry but what does that have to do with the windows ? They were paid for . What does it have to do with the statues, paintings and crucifixes NOT in the new faux-church ? they are in the basement ...the ones that are left that is
You want to talk about obligations How about your obligation to keep a promise made from the pulpit of the old church when you wanted our money
There may be many legitimate gripes you may have, but exactly how will those you want to act on them do that if you refuse to tell them?
Is Fr. Stafki a mind reader?
Perhaps he or other have done many things wrong. I'm not a local, so I have no background on this. I have no dog in this fight, and certainly have no interest in defending their decisions on something I don't know anything about, but just reading this response here makes you sound unreasonable and unwilling to actually have any solution except your own.
Is not dialog exactly how you can express to Fr. Stakfi what you want done, or do you just want to keep protesting no matter what? How do you propose to inform Father of what you want done? What if what you are asking is impossible? Then what?
With all due respect did you read the post in its entirety or just hit the quote button?
our "gripes" as you call them are well spelled out as are our reasons for not participating in the "questions or suggestions" box May we suggest you read this thread from the beginning for a better understanding as to what is going on
this is one of the many reasons mw2016 we oppose slitting this thread It divides the subject and makes it that much harder to follow
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There already is a "Fr. Stafki's box" thread: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=42035#p3
May I suggest that at the very least, critics put links to relevant cathinfo threads in Fr. Stafki's box?
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An xSPX advocate mentioned recently, that the Phoenix chapel's upgrade cost was $17 million and that the current debt is $6 million.
Are these number correct?
If so, I'm astounded by all the money the xSPX is throwing around?
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Ha - no, that is not correct. They put the financials in the bulletin every month.
I don't know what the total cost of the Church was (PhxGroup probably does) but the debt is $2.5 million.
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May I suggest that at the very least, critics put links to relevant cathinfo threads in Fr. Stafki's box?
I must very respectfully say that I disagree with this suggestion.
Even though I imagine they probably monitor things here, I think people need to have a place where they feel they can safely discuss things with some level of anonymity.
The SSPX has a bad habit of bringing real-world repercussions to people that can be really damaging to their lives, people who may not have a certain level of financial freedom in order to remedy things.
I think sending him CI links would cause them to start spending time trying to figure out who is saying what, if they aren't already.
This place has become such a trainwreck. It is such a sad state of affairs to see what has become of OLOS.
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this is one of the many reasons mw2016 we oppose splitting this thread It divides the subject and makes it that much harder to follow
You seem to have me confused with MARLELAR.
I never said to make another thread. I'm with you- I think all discussion needs to be left here, in one place.
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May I suggest that at the very least, critics put links to relevant cathinfo threads in Fr. Stafki's box?
I must very respectfully say that I disagree with this suggestion.
Even though I imagine they probably monitor things here, I think people need to have a place where they feel they can safely discuss things with some level of anonymity.
The SSPX has a bad habit of bringing real-world repercussions to people that can be really damaging to their lives, people who may not have a certain level of financial freedom in order to remedy things.
I think sending him CI links would cause them to start spending time trying to figure out who is saying what, if they aren't already.
This place has become such a trainwreck. It is such a sad state of affairs to see what has become of OLOS.
Perhaps you are right, but what a sad situation that is.
What are parishioners really asking? Show diligence in protecting the children we entrust to you. Tell us the truth. Preach the Truth. Be prudent with our donations. Provide the sacraments. Be kind.
Those basic Golden Rule decencies would have completely prevented the complaints and resentment noted in this thread.
I think Fr. Stafki got off on the wrong foot with some mis-steps, but I think he may be trying to do the right thing to fix the problems he has inherited from his predecessors and superiors. His suggestion box and the increased confession time are steps in the right direction. Time will tell.
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mw:
This place has become such a trainwreck. It is such a sad state of affairs to see what has become of OLOS.
And by extension, does this sad state of affairs not extend to the sspx movement worldwide? Tell me, someone, where is there a healthy, vibrant, truly Catholic sspx chapel anywhere in the world? How can an organization, headed by a bumbling, basically insincere and dishonest SG, IMO, who is controlled, IMO, by and invisible Jєωιѕн hand, possibly sustain the Faith in any viable and representative manner?
Is it the Tridentine Mass which keeps the sspx faithful on board? Is that it? Why, we've had the TLM in more or less its present form since at least 1570. I can't see that that rite has revolutionized the Church. Here in America, the TLM did little to cement the authority and superiority of the Catholic Faith. In fact, if you believe authors like Solange Hertz, the Catholic Church helped immensely in spearheading the eventual triumph of Americanism, Masonry and indifferentism. But, by golly, they had the TLM all the while the Americanist experiment was going on
It's time to move on. You in Post Falls folks need to abandon the sspx basket case at Immaculate Conception Church. Come on over to the Grange when Fr. Voigt is in town. He celebrates a beautiful TLM. His sermons are so much better than the general fare at ICC, that there is really no comparison. And he's very good in the confessional. I'd rather wait it out in that kind of an environment than continue to wade and immerse myself in the warm, fetid waters of corrupt sspx tridentinism
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.....the Catholic Church helped immensely in spearheading the eventual triumph of Americanism, Masonry and indifferentism....
I would amend that phrase to: "....heretics, perverts, and infiltrators subverted the Church and helped immensely in spearheading the eventual triumph of Americanism, Masonry and indifferentism. ..."
....Come on over to the Grange when Fr. Voigt is in town. He celebrates a beautiful TLM. His sermons are so much better than the general fare at ICC, that there is really no comparison. And he's very good in the confessional. I'd rather wait it out in that kind of an environment than continue to wade and immerse myself in the warm, fetid waters of corrupt sspx tridentinism
I met Fr. Voight once and was very favorably impressed.
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this is one of the many reasons mw2016 we oppose splitting this thread It divides the subject and makes it that much harder to follow
You seem to have me confused with MARLELAR.
I never said to make another thread. I'm with you- I think all discussion needs to be left here, in one place.
you are so right we do apologize
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MarK:
I would amend that phrase to: "....heretics, perverts, and infiltrators subverted the Church and helped immensely in spearheading the eventual triumph of Americanism, Masonry and indifferentism. ..."
Ouch! If you care to call pope-appointed clerics "heretics, perverts, and infiltrators" that something you'll have to live with. These Americanist churchmen include, I'm afraid, such prominent individuals as:
Abp. John Carrol (1735- 1815) He was the first Catholic bishop of the U.S., whose cousin signed the Declaration of Independence. He was founder, also, of Georgetown University. probably the oldest Catholic institution of higher learning in the U.S.
James Cardinal Gibbons, who from 1874 to 1921, was the Archbishp of Baltimore.
Bishop John Ireland, 3rd bishop ever appointed in U.S. He was the first Archbishop of St. Paul MN (1888- 1918)
These influential churchmen did much to encourage the Americanist (exceptionalist) spirit in America. If you want to call them heretics, fine. But I doubt that you'll find too many traditional Catholic clerics in modern times, who would do that; and certainly you'll not find NO clerics who would do that.
If these men were "heretics, perverts and infiltrators," then much of the early American church could have been characterized as such.
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this is one of the many reasons mw2016 we oppose splitting this thread It divides the subject and makes it that much harder to follow
You seem to have me confused with MARLELAR.
I never said to make another thread. I'm with you- I think all discussion needs to be left here, in one place.
you are so right we do apologize
No worries! :smile:
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MarK: I would amend that phrase to: "....heretics, perverts, and infiltrators subverted the Church and helped immensely in spearheading the eventual triumph of Americanism, Masonry and indifferentism. ..."
Ouch! If you care to call pope-appointed clerics "heretics, perverts, and infiltrators" that something you'll have to live with. These Americanist churchmen include, I'm afraid, such prominent individuals as:
Abp. John Carrol (1735- 1815) He was the first Catholic bishop of the U.S., whose cousin signed the Declaration of Independence. He was founder, also, of Georgetown University. probably the oldest Catholic institution of higher learning in the U.S.
James Cardinal Gibbons, who from 1874 to 1921, was the Archbishp of Baltimore.
Bishop John Ireland, 3rd bishop ever appointed in U.S. He was the first Archbishop of St. Paul MN (1888- 1918)
These influential churchmen did much to encourage the Americanist (exceptionalist) spirit in America. If you want to call them heretics, fine. But I doubt that you'll find too many traditional Catholic clerics in modern times, who would do that; and certainly you'll not find NO clerics who would do that.
If these men were "heretics, perverts and infiltrators," then much of the early American church could have been characterized as such.
Perhaps my point is a bit pedantic, but I think it is an important one—Churchmen defect and the Church is indefectible.
I very much admire Solange Hertz' work. I recall her indicting many Churchmen (as does Randy Engel in her Rite of Sodomy tome), but I do not recall Mrs. Hertz (or Randy) ever arguing that the Church defected.
Americanism, an offspring of Hibernianism, is a heresy. I think it is fair to say those you properly indict are manifest heretics... but then I am no theologian, only a reasonably well-catechized Catholic.
No ouch :-)
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There may be many legitimate gripes you may have, but exactly how will those you want to act on them do that if you refuse to tell them?
Is Fr. Stafki a mind reader?
Perhaps he or other have done many things wrong. I'm not a local, so I have no background on this. I have no dog in this fight, and certainly have no interest in defending their decisions on something I don't know anything about, but just reading this response here makes you sound unreasonable and unwilling to actually have any solution except your own.
Is not dialog exactly how you can express to Fr. Stakfi what you want done, or do you just want to keep protesting no matter what? How do you propose to inform Father of what you want done? What if what you are asking is impossible? Then what?
With all due respect did you read the post in its entirety or just hit the quote button?
our "gripes" as you call them are well spelled out as are our reasons for not participating in the "questions or suggestions" box May we suggest you read this thread from the beginning for a better understanding as to what is going on
this is one of the many reasons mw2016 we oppose slitting this thread It divides the subject and makes it that much harder to follow
I read the whole series of posts.
You have spelled out your "gripes" here, but the question is does anyone who can actually address them know about them, or are you just complaining among sympathetic voices.
Fr. Stafki was just appointed prior and yet your attitude here suggests that he is to be written off as your enemy. Why? Are his motives evil? How do you know?
I just see your attitude here to seem to create a viscous circle. You are offended and upset by X, but perceive that if you express this you will be persecuted, so instead you pass up the chance that perhaps someone who can address the problem would listen to your concerns, which means your concerns are not heard, so you are offended and upset that no one seems to be concerned about X ... So you come here and complain about X, and people tell you how awful the priests must be if they don't care about X, so at least someone cares about X, but those #%@$# priests don't and now you are even more upset that the priests don't care about X and are trying to destroy everyone who thinks X is a problem ....
It sounds like the melancholic fundraiser who sits in his office and laments that no one cares enough to donate, even though he's not told anyone except his own poor melancholic friends he needs money.
I appreciate you are upset. Perhaps you are correct that certain priests became upset with complaints and refused to listen to you, and even tried to stifle dissent. Consider that, perhaps, as so often we fallen creatures do, certain people were really undermining the priests, so they reacted.
As I said, I'm nowhere near Phoenix, and I don't know the details from all the angles, but are you so sure that Fr. Stafki's motives are bad? Are you so sure that a carefully worded and calmly expressed concern won't help to accomplish some of what you want?
If the situation is really as terrible as you present it, what do you have to lose?
If OLoS is in such a sad state that you'll get the boot over expressing your concerns in a calm manner, then perhaps, for peace of soul, you do need to go elsewhere.
I sympathize because I've been in similar situations before, but when I took some time away from the situations, I realized that I was a major part of the cause of the angst, and when I took a week to list my concerns, then remove the emotion from the letter and edit it down to digestible length, the priests listened to my concerns, and agreed that I was right on several accounts, even though it was impossible to fix certain things.
Maybe you're right, but the posts here sound very paranoid and unless someone breaks the cycle, nothing will change. Perhaps that's what Fr. Stafki was trying to do by inviting comments. If so, what's to lose by addressing one of your less controversial points to him, then moving to discuss some more controversial points if it seems he's open?
If he's trying to lure you into a trap, then why are you still at OLoS? If the priests are that dastardly, then what good could come from staying?
Your call, obviously, but there must be some solution to this, and complaint after complaint on an Internet forum isn't going to solve anything. It's just going to make things more tense for you. It's just going to reinforce your angst. Someone needs to break that cycle.
Just a suggestion.
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Mark:
I very much admire Solange Hertz' work.
Speaking of her, are Hertz's books still sold in the OLS bookstore? I bought all my copies of her works at sspx bookstores. Just wondering.
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.....the Catholic Church helped immensely in spearheading the eventual triumph of Americanism, Masonry and indifferentism....
I would amend that phrase to: "....heretics, perverts, and infiltrators subverted the Church and helped immensely in spearheading the eventual triumph of Americanism, Masonry and indifferentism. ..."
Ouch! ...
Perhaps my point is a bit pedantic, but I think it is an important one—Churchmen defect and the Church is indefectible.
...No ouch :-)
I agree; it is an important distinction.
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Mark: I very much admire Solange Hertz' work.
Speaking of her, are Hertz's books still sold in the OLS bookstore? I bought all my copies of her works at sspx bookstores. Just wondering.
I don't know. Since Fr. Hegenberger's publication and snotty defense of "Saint of the Sanhedrin" (The Angelus, Dec. 2009), I took my purchases elsewhere.
I think ISOC is the purveyor-of-choice for Solange Hertz' books: http://isoc.ws/bookcategory/author/solange-hertz/
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There may be many legitimate gripes you may have, but exactly how will those you want to act on them do that if you refuse to tell them?
Is Fr. Stafki a mind reader?
Perhaps he or other have done many things wrong. I'm not a local, so I have no background on this. I have no dog in this fight, and certainly have no interest in defending their decisions on something I don't know anything about, but just reading this response here makes you sound unreasonable and unwilling to actually have any solution except your own.
Is not dialog exactly how you can express to Fr. Stakfi what you want done, or do you just want to keep protesting no matter what? How do you propose to inform Father of what you want done? What if what you are asking is impossible? Then what?
With all due respect did you read the post in its entirety or just hit the quote button?
our "gripes" as you call them are well spelled out as are our reasons for not participating in the "questions or suggestions" box May we suggest you read this thread from the beginning for a better understanding as to what is going on
this is one of the many reasons mw2016 we oppose slitting this thread It divides the subject and makes it that much harder to follow
I read the whole series of posts.
You have spelled out your "gripes" here, but the question is does anyone who can actually address them know about them, or are you just complaining among sympathetic voices.
Fr. Stafki was just appointed prior and yet your attitude here suggests that he is to be written off as your enemy. Why? Are his motives evil? How do you know?....
If you did read the threads, you would already know of Fr. Stafki's early mis-steps that only compounded resentment accrued from his predecessors and superiors.
How is Fr. Stafki to be made aware of the numerous complaints? Remember those "newbies" who have expressed more concern for the malfeasant enablers than for the injured children? Who here believes that those newbies do not reside in—or report to—the priory?
We have acknowledged that Fr. Stafki has verbalized interest in feedback. Initially he invited face-to-face contact which was a non-starter for many critics in view of the SSPX's long-established pattern of "killing the messenger."
Collections have plummeted from well over $40,000 per month to a bit over $7,000 for the most recent figures I saw. Perhaps our closed wallets and purses have obtained the desired effect—a responsive and conciliatory attitude instead of further baiting the "renters." Time will tell. Problems accuмulated over several years won't go away with one happy face.
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Insofar as you make your SELF a standard of judgment with these various complaints, you are a traditionalist modernist. You follow the principles of vital immanence: it doesn't feel good to ME so it is not legitimate. Church hopping and tradition shopping are all modernist activities.
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Poor Mark.... he's so misunderstood!
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Hi3b5zTR2iw/Vry45rYlRsI/AAAAAAAA1tY/Ogcha1ZPyeM/s1600/z13.jpg)
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Insofar as you make your SELF a standard of judgment with these various complaints, you are a traditionalist modernist. You follow the principles of vital immanence: it doesn't feel good to ME so it is not legitimate. Church hopping and tradition shopping are all modernist activities.
Hmmmm....
Lying—objective sin
Usury—objective sin
Enabling the sodomy of children—objective sin
Killing the messenger—objective sin
Soliciting money for one purpose and then spending it on another—objective sin
What do the fundamental complaints have to do with our feelings? So really, what are you with your off-base advice?
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Gregory I
Insofar as you make your SELF a standard of judgment with these various complaints, you are a traditionalist modernist. You follow the principles of vital immanence: it doesn't feel good to ME so it is not legitimate. Church hopping and tradition shopping are all modernist activities.
Wow Mark, I bet that's the first time you've ever been accused of being a "traditionalist modernist!" Sounds like Greg must have really outdone himself in coming up with such a head scratching phrase (one that I couldn't find anywhere in cyber space other than on Greg's post), but even that wasn't enough. By way of explanation to his apparent neologism Greg follows up by accusing you of following "the principles of vital immanence." Oh yes, but of course -- the principles of vital immanence! I think I got my head wrapped around the word vital, but I just wish Greg could have written the article on immanence for the Catholic Encyclopedia. I could have just read his sound bite explanation rather than have to delve into all this: IMMANENCE (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07682a.htm)
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If you did read the threads, you would already know of Fr. Stafki's early mis-steps that only compounded resentment accrued from his predecessors and superiors.
...
We have acknowledged that Fr. Stafki has verbalized interest in feedback. Initially he invited face-to-face contact which was a non-starter for many critics in view of the SSPX's long-established pattern of "killing the messenger."
Collections have plummeted from well over $40,000 per month to a bit over $7,000 for the most recent figures I saw. Perhaps our closed wallets and purses have obtained the desired effect—a responsive and conciliatory attitude instead of further baiting the "renters." Time will tell. Problems accuмulated over several years won't go away with one happy face.
I did read the threads, and as you note, at least it seems like Fr. Stafki is trying to take a more conciliatory approach. Do you expect that any priest (and even the faithful) don't make missteps?
Those who have the complaints here are in the same boat. It sounds like they may have many legitimate points of contention, but I am certain that there have also been missteps on their parts, too. That's just how fallen human nature works. The more we think ourselves justified and not to blame, usually the more we are the problem.
The question here is whether one wants to solve the problems or not. At least those who have the complains need to be sure that they are not standing in the way of their own cause.
With Fr. Stafki, if he's of good will, where else can he start than to invite people to approach him?
If he's not, what's the harm, as I said before. Worst that can happen is that one has himself confirmed that he can do nothing and needs to go elsewhere.
I'm looking at it from the outside here. Withholding money is reasonable to some extent, but at some point does that not just cause the very problems that people are complaining about?
If the parish can't repay the debt on the church building, then is it not reasonable for the priests to appeal to people to pay the debts? Is it not reasonable that those who are encouraging others not to support the parish garner a very negative reputation? That the priests react? Does it not start to become a greater issue when one is refusing to contribute, but still taking advantage of the Sacraments? The usury issue is a side point (since at least the principle it's due in strict justice, and if the amount were repaid quickly, there would be minimal interest paid). In any case, the situation is what it is, for better or worse. Yet it's precisely the continued appeal for contributions to make ends meet, that was part of the complaint here.
If people are withholding money, and that means there is not enough to pay the parish debts, can the priests really be expected to finish the basement so the bookstore can move, or to spend the necessary cash to decorate the building, etc.
The money strategy has worked, but at some point, and perhaps soon, it may not end well if the parish does not have enough money to pay the bills. And I don't think that's going to result in a total capitulation of the priests. Rather, I think you'll find you have less priests there, fewer opportunities for the Sacraments, etc. Eventually the only logical thing if appeals for more money don't work is to cut costs ...
I'm not saying the priests are right or they are approaching the issues correctly, but since I'm not involved in the controversy, looking at it from the outside, no matter who is right or wrong, it doesn't seem like refusing to contribute solves anything at this point, since at least Fr. Stafki seems to be willing to listen.
At least it seems you've won some recognition. Was that not the real point here?
How is Fr. Stafki to be made aware of the numerous complaints? Remember those "newbies" who have expressed more concern for the malfeasant enablers than for the injured children? Who here believes that those newbies do not reside in—or report to—the priory?
That makes for great rhetoric, but little logic.
First, the Post Falls issues is symptomatic of bigger problems. Perhaps Phoenix is also symptomatic of the same larger issues, but this issue has nothing to do with the Post Falls disasters. People screwed up badly at many different levels, probably with gross negligence if not grave sin. That has nothing to do with the people who have complaints about Phoenix presenting their complaints. If you allow those issues to mix, it will be no wonder that you get written off as having an agenda. That's no excuse for the terrible handling of those cases, but it's also no excuse to always drag out the same canard. It's the best way to get written off.
Secondly, if the "newbies" are as naieve as you suggests and just puppets, why would you ever want them to get the chance to report their version of the problems to the prior or others? That's the most illogical thing in the world? Are you not letting them write the story? Are you not then enabling the bad image painted of those who have legitimate complaints? If I had complaints, I would certainly not want it filtered through someone who does not speak for me and will spin it so the priests hear how insubordinate I am!
I've been around the SSPX for nearly 20 years now, and I've been no stranger to such issues. Maybe, though, I am just naieve, but I don't see the refusal to take Fr. Stafki up on his willingness to hear concerns as productive.
I'd want to address the issues, were I in that position, with my own well-though-out words, so I could present my own case, not allow someone else to put words in my silent mouth.
But my experience also teaches me that when one has such an opportunity to present his concerns, it has to be done calmly, coolly and with great prudence if one wants to get the results he desires. The old line, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" is certainly true. You have to paint yourself as the priest's supporters, offering good ideas (what you want presented in a positive light) as solutions, and not just vitriol and complaint. That's how you get what you need done, both in the business world and without.
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Mark:
Collections have plummeted from well over $40,000 per month to a bit over $7,000 for the most recent figures I saw.
This remark caught my eye, because we don't recall that ICC ever published monthly donation figures. This was the rap on sspx parishes in general. They don't publish those figures. Is that true? So how did you get this information, Mark?
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Mark: Collections have plummeted from well over $40,000 per month to a bit over $7,000 for the most recent figures I saw.
This remark caught my eye, because we don't recall that ICC ever published monthly donation figures. This was the rap on sspx parishes in general. They don't publish those figures. Is that true? So how did you get this information, Mark?
The numbers are occasionally published in the parish bulletins.
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....(equivocation)...
Thank you for your effort at thoughtfulness. Each parishioner shall make their own assessment and act accordingly. As you can see from my paraphrase of your post above, your windy might-be-this-might-be-that is little more than speculative equivocation.
You make one substantive point, actually a serious error, amidst all your yammering thoughtful deliberations:
....The usury issue is a side point (since at least the principle it's due in strict justice, and if the amount were repaid quickly, there would be minimal interest paid). ...
Usury is not "a side point." Usury is a mortal sin. To be clear, any profit (your "minimal"(1) interest) on a simple loan of money is usury, sinful. The priest(2) who sinfully made a simple loan of money at interest is not an investor, not a business partner, but a usurer.
******
(1) Vix pervenit, Benedict XIV to the bishops of Italy, November 1, 1745: “...(Sec 3), I. That species of sin which is called usury, and which has its proper seat and place in a contract of lending, consists in this: that someone, from the loan itself, which of its very nature demands that only as much be returned as was received, which is more to be returned to him than was received, and therefore contends that some profit beyond the principal, by reason of the lending, is due to him. Therefore, all profit of this sort, which surpasses the principal, is unlawful and is usurious.
“2. Nor may any defense be summoned to justify that guilt, either from this fact that the gain is not excessive and overmuch, but moderate, is not great but meager; or from this, that he from whom that profit is asked, because of the loan itself, is not a poor man but rich, who is not going to leave this sum given to him as a loan idle but is going to spend it advantageously to increase his fortune either by buying new estates or by transacting profitable business. Indeed, that person is convicted of acting contrary to the law of lending, which necessarily is concerned with the quality of what is given and returned, who, while that same equality has already once been rendered, does not fear to demand something more from someone, by reason of the lending itself, for which satisfaction has already been made on equal terms; and hence, if he should receive it, he will be obligated to restitution by reason of his obligation in justice, which they call commutative justice, and whose purpose it is both to preserve inviolably inhuman contracts to a quality property each one, and to repair it exactly when it is not observed.”
(2) Council of Nicaea: “§17 Forasmuch as many enrolled among the Clergy, following covetousness and lust of gain, have forgotten the divine Scripture, which says, He has not given his money upon usury, and in lending money ask the hundredth of the sum [as monthly interest], the holy and great Synod thinks it just that if after this decree any one be found to receive usury, whether he accomplish it by secret transaction or otherwise, as by demanding the whole and one half, or by using any other contrivance whatever for filthy lucre’s sake, he shall be deposed from the clergy and his name stricken from the list.”
http://judaism.is/usury.html
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Mark: Collections have plummeted from well over $40,000 per month to a bit over $7,000 for the most recent figures I saw.
This remark caught my eye, because we don't recall that ICC ever published monthly donation figures. This was the rap on sspx parishes in general. They don't publish those figures. Is that true? So how did you get this information, Mark?
From the July 10, 2016 bulletin:
Building collection monthly average
2013 $33,127
2014 $46,966
2015 $48,456
Jan 2016 $15,579
Feb 2016 $9,526
Mar 2016 $9,067
Apr 2016 $14,192
May 2016 $13,193
Jun 2016 $7,497
"1st collection" and "Academy collection" remained relatively steady through the period.
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The Holy See admits practically the lawfulness of interest on loans, even for ecclesiastical property, though it has not promulgated any doctrinal decree on the subject. See the replies of the Holy Office dated 18 August, 1830, 31 August, 1831, 17 January, 1838, 26 March, 1840, and 28 February, 1871; and that of the Sacred Penitentiary of 11 February, 1832. These replies will be found collected in "Collectio Lacensis" (Acta et decreta s. conciliorum recentiorum), VI, col. 677, Appendix to the Council of Pondicherry; and in the "Enchiridion" of Father Bucceroni.
for more information see this link (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15235c.htm).
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The Holy See admits practically the lawfulness of interest on loans, even for ecclesiastical property, though it has not promulgated any doctrinal decree on the subject. See the replies of the Holy Office dated 18 August, 1830, 31 August, 1831, 17 January, 1838, 26 March, 1840, and 28 February, 1871; and that of the Sacred Penitentiary of 11 February, 1832. These replies will be found collected in "Collectio Lacensis" (Acta et decreta s. conciliorum recentiorum), VI, col. 677, Appendix to the Council of Pondicherry; and in the "Enchiridion" of Father Bucceroni.
for more information see this link (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15235c.htm).
Do we agree that the word "practically" is the land mine?
What would we make of, "The Holy See admits practically the lawfulness of contraception, even though 'the pill' often acts as a chemical abortion, though it has not promulgated any doctrinal decree on the subject"?
Where is "practical" law in Catholic theology?
Contrary to the claim "it has not promulgated any doctrinal decree on the subject," actual ("impractical"?) Catholic doctrinal decrees consistently damn any and all profit over the principal on a simple loan of money. http://judaism.is/usury.html
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The old line, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" is certainly true. You have to paint yourself as the priest's supporters, offering good ideas (what you want presented in a positive light) as solutions, and not just vitriol and complaint. That's how you get what you need done, both in the business world and without.
Oh dear. You must not have read the entire thread.
This is NOT a two-way street of support between the priests and the parishioners here. The parishioners do not receive "positive light" treatment from the priests here.
The parishioners have been condescended to and browbeaten from the pulpit (for months in a row by Fr. Wegner, in particular) on any number of issues.
That is why your suggestion comes off as not only naive, but ignorant, as well.
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....(equivocation)...
Thank you for your effort at thoughtfulness. Each parishioner shall make their own assessment and act accordingly. As you can see from my paraphrase of your post above, your windy might-be-this-might-be-that is little more than speculative equivocation.
That's exactly the attitude I'm talking about...
It's a perfect way to foster distrust and foment problems, not solve them.
I'll ignore the rest of your post, just like you did mine. Since you have no desire to actually discuss but write off your interlocutor with insults, I'll not waste my time.
Usury is a sin, indeed ... so is pride ... Pot. Kettle. Black.
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The old line, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" is certainly true. You have to paint yourself as the priest's supporters, offering good ideas (what you want presented in a positive light) as solutions, and not just vitriol and complaint. That's how you get what you need done, both in the business world and without.
Oh dear. You must not have read the entire thread.
This is NOT a two-way street of support between the priests and the parishioners here. The parishioners do not receive "positive light" treatment from the priests here.
The parishioners have been condescended to and browbeaten from the pulpit (for months in a row by Fr. Wegner, in particular) on any number of issues.
That is why your suggestion comes off as not only naive, but ignorant, as well.
For the third time. I have read the entire thread.
You must not have read my entire post ... or you read into it what you thought I wrote.
I never said that the parishioners who have expressed problems have had "positive light treatment". I suggested that's how they should approach the priests with their problems if they hope to accomplish what they desire. And that, even if they've been treated badly.
Continuing the same approach is just going to cause the same effect, and what you see now is clearly not good for either party.
If you approach the priest who thinks you're just a complainer with gripes and complaints, you'll just reinforce his views of you, and he will write you off, and condescend and browbeat.
If you take a more gentle attitude, and offer your desires as suggestions and clarifications, with a more positive attitude, you'll more likely make the priests think they've misunderstood you and possibly end up getting more than you wanted.
I've done that more than a few times when I've had serious conflicts with SSPX priests, and usually it has shown where I've been misunderstood, and I was able to get what I wanted and more simply by taking a new tack and being a bit less argumentative and bitter.
Think of it this way. Someone needs to break the cycle if there's to be any fix here. Perhaps that's what Fr. Stafki is doing by inviting comments. (Perhaps not, but people did seem to have a more positive opinion of him earlier along).
If he's being genuine and you write him off, then the logical reaction will be that his efforts at being "reasonable" will been seen as not enough, and you will look unreasonable. The result is you get written off as malcontents. That doesn't solve anything, and puts you in a worse position. If he's not genuine here, you're in no worse position by trying to point out the problems.
I'm offering ideas on how to fix the situation. I'm not defending either camp.
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....(equivocation)...
Thank you for your effort at thoughtfulness. Each parishioner shall make their own assessment and act accordingly. As you can see from my paraphrase of your post above, your windy might-be-this-might-be-that is little more than speculative equivocation.
That's exactly the attitude I'm talking about...
It's a perfect way to foster distrust and foment problems, not solve them.
I'll ignore the rest of your post, just like you did mine. Since you have no desire to actually discuss but write off your interlocutor with insults, I'll not waste my time.
Usury is a sin, indeed ... so is pride ... Pot. Kettle. Black.
Pride, eh? Several among us have tried to catch flies with sugar, even tried with Fr. Stafki early in his reign.
Perhaps dismissive self-importance has diminished proportionate to diminished collections. We'll see.
You pop on the scene unfamiliar with what has transpired, offer equivocation, offer advice that has already failed... and now your feelings are hurt. So sorry.
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It's been said with no small degree of truth that when bishops act like nuns, nuns act like bishops. It could equally be said that when priests act like laymen, laymen act like priests. I think that inverse order of things helps to explains a big part of the tragic mess that exists through the Church in general and the SSPX in particular as the latter tries to ignore or muzzle the legitimate concerns of the resistance.
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The Holy See admits practically the lawfulness of interest on loans, even for ecclesiastical property, though it has not promulgated any doctrinal decree on the subject. See the replies of the Holy Office dated 18 August, 1830, 31 August, 1831, 17 January, 1838, 26 March, 1840, and 28 February, 1871; and that of the Sacred Penitentiary of 11 February, 1832. These replies will be found collected in "Collectio Lacensis" (Acta et decreta s. conciliorum recentiorum), VI, col. 677, Appendix to the Council of Pondicherry; and in the "Enchiridion" of Father Bucceroni.
for more information see this link (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15235c.htm).
Do we agree that the word "practically" is the land mine?
What would we make of, "The Holy See admits practically the lawfulness of contraception, even though 'the pill' often acts as a chemical abortion, though it has not promulgated any doctrinal decree on the subject"?
Where is "practical" law in Catholic theology?
Contrary to the claim "it has not promulgated any doctrinal decree on the subject," actual ("impractical"?) Catholic doctrinal decrees consistently damn any and all profit over the principal on a simple loan of money. http://judaism.is/usury.html
I don't think the comparison to contraception is a just one, as conception/contraception is not a means of exchanging value as is money.
Money however IS a means of exchanging value and the concept of justice is applied to that exchange. If I lend you $1000 so you can use it to make $10,000 why would it be unjust for me to be viewed as a business partner and share in the profit? If I lend you $1000 to repair your car (with the understanding that you will repay the loan) then that is an act of kindness, so to speak, and it would be unjust of me to require more than my $1000 because you did not increase the value of my $1000; I was not your business partner and there is no increase in value to share.
With this understanding I would agree that charging interest on a loan to build a church unjust, but the principle of charging interest on a money-making proposition (e.g. starting a business) is not. Of course the rate of interest would beget another discussion.
Obviously all this angst would be avoided if Churches, and people, saved their money FIRST and only spent what they actually had rather than looking to others to fund their needs/wants/projects. Self-control is the key for institutions as well as individuals.
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Make up your own analogy:
"The Holy See admits practically the lawfulness of ____(Fill in the blank with any mortal sin)______, even ____(Fill in the blank with whatever excuse you like)______, though it has not promulgated any doctrinal decree on the subject."
Plain and simply, the Church has always and everywhere taught that any profit, no matter how small, on a simple loan of money is a mortal sin... period.
Did you even read the summary or direct references that I provided? http://judaism.is/usury.html
It really doesn't matter what you or I think; Roma locuta est, causa finita.
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... If I lend you $1000 so you can use it to make $10,000 why would it be unjust for me to be viewed as a business partner and share in the profit? ....
Why? Re-read your own question. "If I lend...." A loan is a loan is a loan.
If you pay $1,000 to buy stock in a genuine business venture and you profit $10,000 because the business does well, that is licit. You were at risk and the nature of your investment in such a case is not a loan. In the case of a loan, you profit even if the business loses money—illicit. Calling a loan by another name, "investment," doesn't make a loan licit. It is the actual arrangement and risk that determine whether or not the arrangement is licit.
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But my experience also teaches me that when one has such an opportunity to present his concerns, it has to be done calmly, coolly and with great prudence if one wants to get the results he desires. The old line, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" is certainly true. You have to paint yourself as the priest's supporters, offering good ideas (what you want presented in a positive light) as solutions, and not just vitriol and complaint. That's how you get what you need done, both in the business world and without.
We knew it was only a matter of time before you showed your true colors
So we must "paint" ourselves ..In other words camouflage , disguise or hide our true nature would be another term for it we are guessing ?
We are not going to lie ,manipulate or become some group of sycophants to get our way
and the fact that you would suggest it is very telling
.We are in the right we .... You know what ?we have been over this time and time again a promise is a promise you are trying to do what others have tried ,to shift the subject to make it about the protest instead of why there is a PROTEST .So unless you have something else please move on
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VeritastLuxMea said:
But my experience also teaches me that when one has such an opportunity to present his concerns, it has to be done calmly, coolly and with great prudence if one wants to get the results he desires. The old line, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" is certainly true. You have to paint yourself as the priest's supporters, offering good ideas (what you want presented in a positive light) as solutions, and not just vitriol and complaint. That's how you get what you need done, both in the business world and without.
It's certainly true that old line about flies and honey has become an unthinking mantra for many of the pay, pray, and obey "don't rock the boat and just go with the flow" mindset who forgot if they ever knew in the first place that the virtue of obedience is properly subservient to that of faith and not visa versa. Sometimes it is more important to smash lies (and money changers -- cf. Matt. 21:12) than catch flies.
When money (for statues and whatever else) is unaccounted for and a (priest's?) loan is being forced to be paid back with interest it may be time for a good dose of vinegar to smoke out the truth.
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But my experience also teaches me that when one has such an opportunity to present his concerns, it has to be done calmly, coolly and with great prudence if one wants to get the results he desires. The old line, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" is certainly true. You have to paint yourself as the priest's supporters, offering good ideas (what you want presented in a positive light) as solutions, and not just vitriol and complaint. That's how you get what you need done, both in the business world and without.
We knew it was only a matter of time before you showed your true colors
So we must "paint" ourselves ..In other words camouflage , disguise or hide our true nature would be another term for it we are guessing ?
We are not going to lie ,manipulate or become some group of sycophants to get our way
and the fact that you would suggest it is very telling
.We are in the right we .... You know what ?we have been over this time and time again a promise is a promise you are trying to do what others have tried ,to shift the subject to make it about the protest instead of why there is a PROTEST .So unless you have something else please move on
Yeah...you won't disguise or paint yourselves, but you will bash priests, parishioners and anyone who disagrees with you on an online forum that hides behind the concept of being a "group" of upset people and then hides behind the anonymity of the Internet. Quite the group of heroes here.
Anyone who has read what people say here knew exactly how the Suggestion Box was going to go. First off, we KNOW since there is this big persecution going on between the priests and parishioners that anyone who makes a suggestion (either identifying themselves or not) will be run out of the church. Or, the suggestion will be ignored, thereby reinforcing the notion that the priests are malicious and "dysfunctional" and we've been right all along? Therefore, there is no need to make any suggestions as to how to fix things. Of course, this calls in to question the POINT of all the griping since nothing is set to change, hasn't changed, and won't change.
Veritas stirred up the nest by pointing out what is obvious to everyone who isn't part of the group of whiners here. You complain about the condition of the church and how the interior needs to be decorated. Of course, we know that this takes money. So, to get the point across, you stop donating.......to put pressure on someone to do something that requires......donations.....
By the way.....in case it isn't obvious....it isn't working. It's also an affront to justice that you continue to go to the parish and take advantage of the sacraments that are offered in a building that we are paying for. All the while, not donating anything as a "protest" (where in the world does Catholic Teaching support this?) and bashing the very church that provides you with said sacraments. Is it no wonder that people (and no, not the priests) simply write you off?
By the way, mods and/or admins...if you find something wrong with my posts, please do me the courtesy of explaining what? Deleting a post without a real explanation is interesting when the sky seems to be limit for what people can say about those that disagree with the Resistance stance. Let's see if you'll keep this post up....
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Whether priests or complaining parishioners at OLS are right or wrong is almost a moot issue at this point. What is clear to some of us on the outside is this: What's going on at OLS amounts to little more than a protracted 'food fight.' How the people there can even practice their Faith in a practical, daily way is the real question. OLS appears to be almost totally dysfunctional. Parishioners ought to be seeking alternative worship venues. I guess a lot of them have. OLS, for all intents and purposes, appears to be another failed sspx enterprise.
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But my experience also teaches me that when one has such an opportunity to present his concerns, it has to be done calmly, coolly and with great prudence if one wants to get the results he desires. The old line, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" is certainly true. You have to paint yourself as the priest's supporters, offering good ideas (what you want presented in a positive light) as solutions, and not just vitriol and complaint. That's how you get what you need done, both in the business world and without.
We knew it was only a matter of time before you showed your true colors
So we must "paint" ourselves ..In other words camouflage , disguise or hide our true nature would be another term for it we are guessing ?
We are not going to lie ,manipulate or become some group of sycophants to get our way
and the fact that you would suggest it is very telling
.We are in the right we .... You know what ?we have been over this time and time again a promise is a promise you are trying to do what others have tried ,to shift the subject to make it about the protest instead of why there is a PROTEST .So unless you have something else please move on
Yeah...you won't disguise or paint yourselves, but you will bash priests, parishioners and anyone who disagrees with you on an online forum that hides behind the concept of being a "group" of upset people and then hides behind the anonymity of the Internet. Quite the group of heroes here.
If you have bait, go fishing.
Anyone who has read what people say here knew exactly how the Suggestion Box was going to go. First off, we KNOW since there is this big persecution going on between the priests and parishioners that anyone who makes a suggestion (either identifying themselves or not) will be run out of the church.
As if that hasn't happened?
Or, the suggestion will be ignored,
As if that hasn't happened?
thereby reinforcing the notion that the priests are malicious and "dysfunctional" and we've been right all along?
If the SSPX priests and superiors are such a saintly infallible group, why is there is "Resistance"? Perhaps SSPX priests and superiors are like the Jews, always innocent victims, never 'malicious and dysfunctional' perpetrators?
Therefore, there is no need to make any suggestions as to how to fix things. Of course, this calls in to question the POINT of all the griping since nothing is set to change, hasn't changed, and won't change.
Veritas stirred up the nest by pointing out what is obvious to everyone who isn't part of the group of whiners here. You complain about the condition of the church and how the interior needs to be decorated. Of course, we know that this takes money. So, to get the point across, you stop donating.......to put pressure on someone to do something that requires......donations.....
I see. Donating more earmarked money would certainly go to the earmarked projects because previous donated money didn't go to the earmarked project.
The exhortation to forgive 7 x 70 is not an exhortation to be stupid 7 x 70.
By the way.....in case it isn't obvious....it isn't working.
Oh really? The recent change in tone just happened out of thin air?
It's also an affront to justice that you continue to go to the parish and take advantage of the sacraments that are offered in a building that we are paying for. All the while, not donating anything as a "protest" (where in the world does Catholic Teaching support this?) and bashing the very church that provides you with said sacraments. Is it no wonder that people (and no, not the priests) simply write you off?
In case it escaped you, donations to the building fund have plummeted. Donations for the support of the priory have remained relatively stable.
Where in Catholic theology are parishioners merely "renters"?
It is no wonder that people write you off.
By the way, mods and/or admins...if you find something wrong with my posts, please do me the courtesy of explaining what? Deleting a post without a real explanation is interesting when the sky seems to be limit for what people can say about those that disagree with the Resistance stance. Let's see if you'll keep this post up....
Can you see my tears?
Re-focusing on the issues, some great, some small, updated
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) misappropriation of donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 21 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports and lounge around
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) the clandestine disappearance of Fr. Riccomini
(15) cancelling devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty haughty attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) cancelling the adult catechism classes,
(21) spending big money on a sports field and locker room while academics suffer,
(22) presenting the new church project as a fait accompli according to the dictates of the "usual suspects," the "insiders"
and, yes,
(23) the statues.
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Re-focusing on the issues, some great, some small, updated
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) diverting donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 21 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports, etc.
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) the clandestine disappearance of Fr. Riccomini
(15) cancelling devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty haughty attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) cancelling the adult catechism classes,
(21) spending big money on a sports field and locker room while academics suffer,
(22) presenting the new church project as a fait accompli according to the dictates of the "usual suspects," the "insiders"
and, yes,
(23) the statues.
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Veritas stirred up the nest by pointing out what is obvious to everyone who isn't part of the group of whiners here. You complain about the condition of the church and how the interior needs to be decorated. Of course, we know that this takes money. So, to get the point across, you stop donating.......to put pressure on someone to do something that requires......donations.....
....
Lets see if we can clear this up for you as you seem to have trouble comprehending the
the entire subject of this thread even though we have been through this time and time again ad nauseum
your right the church needs donations to be completed but until that has started donations will be withheld
we will not participate in usury , we will not be party to the breaking of promises made at the pulpit, we want an accounting of the misappropriated funds
if repayment of that loan taken out to pay for changes made to the plans of the church AFTER our pledges were taken is so important let them finish what was promised to us FIRST.with the money that IS BEING DONATED TO THE BUILDING FUND As they begin work on the interior we are confident everyone's donations will increase and people will stop leaving. In case you didnt notice there is less and less people at Mass every Sunday at the same time Mass at FSSP is growing as is our Lady of Quito and the CMRI ..we are not just a small whining group but the voice of many many parishioners who just cant get past that ugly stark interior
We also want a return to the religious atmosphere of the church prior to Fr.R becoming prior and those things he suppressed returned
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Re-focusing on the issues, some great, some small, updated
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) diverting donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 21 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports, etc.
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) the clandestine disappearance of Fr. Riccomini
(15) cancelling devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty haughty attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) cancelling the adult catechism classes,
(21) spending big money on a sports field and locker room while academics suffer,
(22) presenting the new church project as a fait accompli according to the dictates of the "usual suspects," the "insiders"
and, yes,
(23) the statues.
The 23 Theses
(http://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/justintaylor/files/2010/10/Luther-nailing-theses-560x538.jpg)
Print them out and nail em on the Bulletin Board... if that forum still exists.
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... If I lend you $1000 so you can use it to make $10,000 why would it be unjust for me to be viewed as a business partner and share in the profit? ....
Why? Re-read your own question. "If I lend...." A loan is a loan is a loan.
If you pay $1,000 to buy stock in a genuine business venture and you profit $10,000 because the business does well, that is licit. You were at risk and the nature of your investment in such a case is not a loan. In the case of a loan, you profit even if the business loses money—illicit. Calling a loan by another name, "investment," doesn't make a loan licit. It is the actual arrangement and risk that determine whether or not the arrangement is licit.
False.
If I lend you money and you cannot repay because you lost it in your business venture then no, I cannot "profit" from said loan because you can not repay it. You have broken your word and have defaulted. My money is gone and so is your reputation.
I assume you are willfully misunderstanding me so I will no longer try to explain it to you.
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... If I lend you $1000 so you can use it to make $10,000 why would it be unjust for me to be viewed as a business partner and share in the profit? ....
Why? Re-read your own question. "If I lend...." A loan is a loan is a loan.
If you pay $1,000 to buy stock in a genuine business venture and you profit $10,000 because the business does well, that is licit. You were at risk and the nature of your investment in such a case is not a loan. In the case of a loan, you profit even if the business loses money—illicit. Calling a loan by another name, "investment," doesn't make a loan licit. It is the actual arrangement and risk that determine whether or not the arrangement is licit.
False.
If I lend you money and you cannot repay because you lost it in your business venture then no, I cannot "profit" from said loan because you can not repay it. You have broken your word and have defaulted. My money is gone and so is your reputation.
I assume you are willfully misunderstanding me so I will no longer try to explain it to you.
In a Catholic church loan, should money lenders be allowed to let their money copulate?
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQdi7F7DkWtJFj4Xq4u7GY7AXnQB86_gAuIQjOe4_wH_nM4jsfL)
Was the Phoenix chapel investment necessary and who was making money on it?
An argument can be made that the investment size was unnecessary and that actually, the upgrade was geared to bring more money into xSPX coffers.
(Upgrading capacity for higher through-put).
But Father Wegner adopts a Jєωιѕн, money-lender position that this non-speculative, private loan should have interest attached to it ? :scratchchin:
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... If I lend you $1000 so you can use it to make $10,000 why would it be unjust for me to be viewed as a business partner and share in the profit? ....
Why? Re-read your own question. "If I lend...." A loan is a loan is a loan.
If you pay $1,000 to buy stock in a genuine business venture and you profit $10,000 because the business does well, that is licit. You were at risk and the nature of your investment in such a case is not a loan. In the case of a loan, you profit even if the business loses money—illicit. Calling a loan by another name, "investment," doesn't make a loan licit. It is the actual arrangement and risk that determine whether or not the arrangement is licit.
False.
If I lend you money and you cannot repay because you lost it in your business venture then no, I cannot "profit" from said loan because you can not repay it. You have broken your word and have defaulted. My money is gone and so is your reputation.
I assume you are willfully misunderstanding me so I will no longer try to explain it to you.
You ass-u-me too much.
I'm willing to make a bet (neither a loan, nor an investment).
I bet that you have not read even one of the resources offered at http://judaism.is/usury.html . So, it is not so much that you are being misunderstood (sob) as that you have not lifted a finger to educate yourself on what precisely the Church teaches about loans.
Instead, you excerpted your "practical" quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on usury and tried to pass it off as dogmatic. The rest of the article is quite clear on the dogmatic pronouncements, yet you chose to quote the "practical" assessment, namely the Church teaches against usury, but many Churchmen have ignored the prohibitions out of convenience.
As I said it is the structure that determines whether it is a loan or an investment. Risk is part of that structure. Most loans are secured with collateral, so even if the borrower defaults or dies, the dirtbag usurer still gets his/her pound of flesh. That said, an unsecured loan is still a loan.
What makes this quite clean is that the priest's loan was a simple loan of money. He doesn't own stock in the building. He isn't a business partner. He just loaned money at interest. For that reason, his profit is sinful, not just.
In case you missed them, here's yer chance to edjumakate yersef:
Money Manipulation and Social Order
by Fr. Denis Fahey, C.S.S.p.,
ISBN 978-1930278974
available at http://isoc.ws/bookcategory/author/fr-denis-fahey/
Barren Metal: A History of Capitalism as the Conflict between Labor and Usury
by Dr. E. Michael Jones,
ISBN 978-0929891149,
available at
http://www.amazon.com/Barren-Metal-History-Capitalism-Conflict/dp/0929891147
Usury in Christendom: The Mortal Sin that Was and Now is Not
by Michael Hoffman,
ISBN 978-0970378491,
available at
http://www.amazon.com/Usury-Christendom-The-Mortal-that/dp/0970378491
The Church and the Usurers: Unprofitable Lending for the Modern Economy,
by Prof. Brian McCall,
ISBN 978-1932589641,
available at
http://www.amazon.com/The-Church-Usurers-Unprofitable-Lending/dp/1932589643
The Church and the Libertarian: A Defense of the Catholic Church’s Teaching on Man, Economy, and State, by Christopher A. Ferrara, J.D.
ASIN B004UI30P0,
available at http://www.amazon.com/The-Church-Libertarian-Catholic-Teaching/dp/B004UI30P0
Usury in Catholic Theology, by Fr. Lewis Watt, S.J.
Oxford: Catholic Social Guild, 1945. out of print
view/download as pdf file at http://judaism.is/assets/watt-usury-in-catholic-theology.pdf
Unprofitable Lending: Modern Credit Regulation and the Lost Theory of Usury, by Prof. Brian McCall,
Cardozo Law Review, Vol. 30, No. 2, 2008.
view/download at:
http://www.cardozolawreview.com/Joomla1.5/content/30-2/MCCALL.30.2.pdf
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You have spelled out your "gripes" here, but the question is does anyone who can actually address them know about them, or are you just complaining among sympathetic voices.
You underestimate this forum . scores of parishioners at OLOS read this board including Priests and Brothers. We have walked out of Mass to hear the subject of Cathinfo being discussed by more then one group .
Besides OLOS admin. is well aware of the protest and what exactly our requests are .It was made clear to them months ago
Fr. Stafki was just appointed prior and yet your attitude here suggests that he is to be written off as your enemy. Why? Are his motives evil? How do you know?
.
Fr.S is not our enemy nor is he in any way evil. We have made no inference that he is.
He is though slow playing the completion of the church interior and installing the already paid for windows. We are not sure why ..maybe he thinks just the right sermon by he or Fr. Scott will move us from our position ? It will not
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You underestimate this forum . scores of parishioners at OLOS read this board including Priests and Brothers. We have walked out of Mass to hear the subject of Cathinfo being discussed by more then one group .
Besides OLOS admin. is well aware of the protest and what exactly our requests are .It was made clear to them months ago...
And yet, I was rather surprised to learn, there are some parishioners who are quite angry, same complaints as expressed here, but have not known about CathInfo. Now they know.
...
Fr.S is not our enemy nor is he in any way evil. We have made no inference that he is.
He is though slow playing the completion of the church interior and installing the already paid for windows. We are not sure why ..maybe he thinks just the right sermon by he or Fr. Scott will move us from our position ? It will not
Fr. Stafki did get off on the wrong foot, but he seems to want rapprochement. Unfortunately, he has superiors and... the fish is rotting from the head down.
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VeritastLuxMea said:
But my experience also teaches me that when one has such an opportunity to present his concerns, it has to be done calmly, coolly and with great prudence if one wants to get the results he desires. The old line, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" is certainly true. You have to paint yourself as the priest's supporters, offering good ideas (what you want presented in a positive light) as solutions, and not just vitriol and complaint. That's how you get what you need done, both in the business world and without.
It's certainly true that old line about flies and honey has become an unthinking mantra for many of the pay, pray, and obey "don't rock the boat and just go with the flow" mindset who forgot if they ever knew in the first place that the virtue of obedience is properly subservient to that of faith and not visa versa. Sometimes it is more important to smash lies (and money changers -- cf. Matt. 21:12) than catch flies.
When money (for statues and whatever else) is unaccounted for and a (priest's?) loan is being forced to be paid back with interest it may be time for a good dose of vinegar to smoke out the truth.
It's also easy to complain so bitterly (under the guise of "principles") that the end result is not only no success, but worse.
Principles are important and one can never compromise on them, but one can use more than one way to defend them. Sometimes the best way to get a sinner to confess is to tell him how terrible his sins are. Other times that will drive a man to worse sins, and rather the best method is to speak of the Sacred Heart's mercy for sinners. That's how St. Paul puts it (1 Cor 9.19)
What lies are being smashed by continuing to gripe about how bad the situation is without ever communicating that to those who can fix it? None.
I can tell you that you can rock the boat, often times much more effectively by being gentle, especially when the fire and brimstone aren't accomplishing their purpose.
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But my experience also teaches me that when one has such an opportunity to present his concerns, it has to be done calmly, coolly and with great prudence if one wants to get the results he desires. The old line, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" is certainly true. You have to paint yourself as the priest's supporters, offering good ideas (what you want presented in a positive light) as solutions, and not just vitriol and complaint. That's how you get what you need done, both in the business world and without.
We knew it was only a matter of time before you showed your true colors
So we must "paint" ourselves ..In other words camouflage , disguise or hide our true nature would be another term for it we are guessing ?
We are not going to lie ,manipulate or become some group of sycophants to get our way
and the fact that you would suggest it is very telling
.We are in the right we .... You know what ?we have been over this time and time again a promise is a promise you are trying to do what others have tried ,to shift the subject to make it about the protest instead of why there is a PROTEST .So unless you have something else please move on
I have not suggested lying, nor manipulation nor sycophantry. I have not suggested you withhold your complaints. I have only suggested you present them in a less antagonistic manner if you want to accomplish anything.
Being a good host and having a gentlemanly discussion with a Protestant you're trying to convert isn't manipulation. Saving the hard truths for once he's accepted the easier one isn't lying. Neither is presenting your complaints in a more germane manner deceitful.
If your dealings with Fr. Stafki, Fr. Riccomini, Fr. Wegner and the other priests around Phoenix are similar to your posts here, I can understand why you are getting written off.
I came here having lurked for a while and read this thread. I visited Phoenix twice, once at the consecration of the Church, and it seemed a very good parish. I was saddened to see the difficulties you were suffering and thought I could help offer some ideas on how to accomplish what you want. Yet my suggestion that you should be less paranoid and antagonistic is condemned by you as "showing my true colors" and something inevitable, as if I were some plant or mole here trying to get you kicked out of OLoS or report to the priests. That's precisely the attitude that'd going to get you ignored and badly labeled in the priests' eyes.
Sadly, contrary to your angry conspiratorial fantasies, I'm just a traditional Catholic who really has tried of the sour taste we all seem to have. A Catholic who has tired both of the mismanagement by priests imbued by clericalism, and the anger-filled personalism of so many faithful. Neither are the attitudes or behaviours of the Saints.
You've talked a lot about promises, and mentioned the windows among those -- that these windows are already paid for. Earlier in the thread it was discussed how the loan for the Church was taken out to ensure it's completion before stricter codes came in. There's several possibilities as to why the windows are not in place, including, perhaps, that in order to finish the church in time, that money needed to be spent, and the priests thought that if collections stayed up, it could be replaced. I don't know that, but it's one possibility that would explain what's happened. It also could be more simple mismanagement, but either way, you may be demanding the impossible, and your anger won't make the impossible possible.
I concede it seems you don't have the whole picture on this. That's probably due to poor management. But that's partially your fault as well, for your unwillingness to try to work with the hand you've been dealt and instead complaining that you want a re-deal.
To be clear, I am not your enemy, nor do I think your complaints are wrong. I hope you can present your complaints and accomplish what you want here. I do think your present strategy as doomed to failure and doomed to marginalize your and your concerns, which helps no one.
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VeritasLuxMea said:
(http://judaism.is/images/fingers%20in%20ears.jpg?crc=277763047)
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean well, but you are just not listening.
Do you think that the first time we individually and privately approached the priests regarding these problems that we spit in their eye and punched them in the nose?
Get real. We've tried the soft soap approach repeatedly receiving the same brush off and failed results. Can you hear me now?
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Veritas stirred up the nest by pointing out what is obvious to everyone who isn't part of the group of whiners here. You complain about the condition of the church and how the interior needs to be decorated. Of course, we know that this takes money. So, to get the point across, you stop donating.......to put pressure on someone to do something that requires......donations.....
I'm not looking to stir up anything except Charity.
I think PhxGroup may have valid concerns and that there probably was some mismanagement of the project in the hasty effort to finish things.
I understand the concerns of the priests that people here have -- complainingly -- communicated to us: that they do not want to just decorate with things from the old chapel, but purchase things that match the envisioned style.
Many years ago I saw a huge beautiful old church purchased by traditional Catholics go from looking like a French Gothic Cathedral to a massive clutter of cheap pious objects. The massive sanctuary became a mock museum collection of random statues none of which matched. Later, one of the pastors purchased high-quality stone statues which were a near-perfect fit to the Gothic style. Several of those who first came to the church and were so attached to their kitsch that they snuck in at night and removed the new statues, because "Father was trying to destroy everything traditional". The significantly-damaged new statues were returned only after threats of having the police involved.
When the priest purchased brand new brass candlestick for the main altar and disposed of the ones made from Bondo, one man left the parish because Father was a "modernist".
A number of others later loudly objected when a $25,000 set of 19th-century real gold vestments was donated and the cheap nylon "gold" set (something forbidden by the Holy See long, long ago) was sold, since this "new" gothic set was not "traditional".
I get the reason the priest have expressed those concern. Once statues, pictures, vestments or other items are brought into a church, they have a way of staying, even when better items are acquired.
Yet there's a balance to be had, too. Perhaps some of the nicer items could be refinished to match, and indeed, to have only two statues in the church is a bit Spartan.
It's quite probably that the priests can be just as uncompromising, as is so often the case, with a reaction that smells of clericalism and arrogance.
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Whether priests or complaining parishioners at OLS are right or wrong is almost a moot issue at this point. What is clear to some of us on the outside is this: What's going on at OLS amounts to little more than a protracted 'food fight.'
Exactly!
How the people there can even practice their Faith in a practical, daily way is the real question. OLS appears to be almost totally dysfunctional. Parishioners ought to be seeking alternative worship venues. I guess a lot of them have. OLS, for all intents and purposes, appears to be another failed sspx enterprise.
I'm less pessimistic than you here, but if it's really as bad as PhxGroup paints it, you're right that the logical solution is to leave, not just open another can of pudding and ready the trebuchet.
Do some people in Phoenix have complaints? Yes.
Do most? Probably not. Like in some many places, there's usually a few people shouting, and that makes it seem far worse than it is.
Is the whole place truly dysfunctional? Probably not.
The majority probably are still doing what they've always done -- trying to save their souls, going to Mass, etc. Perhaps some are bigger donors, but my experience tells me that probably these are the bigger families and poorer folks who can offer only a few dollars (which explains the low collections).
The rich folks tend to be those who think they are entitled to have their democratic say in how the church is run, like Protestant parish councils. Interestingly enough, if that's the case, those who want to vote by their pocketbook, just voted themselves off the island. They spoke and already removed themselves from the parish, they just haven't take your advice yet and physically left.
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Do you think that the first time we individually and privately approached the priests regarding these problems that we spit in their eye and punched them in the nose?
Get real. We've tried the soft soap approach repeatedly receiving the same brush off and failed results. Can you hear me now?
Ahh ... so you're personally involved. That explains a great deal of your lack of perspective ...
No, I don't think you were spitting and punching, but we human beings are creatures of habit and are very consistent ...
I imagine you act here like you would with people in real life. Your approach to the priests was probably identical to your usual vitriol, sarcasm, name-calling and aggressiveness you use here (like you just did in the above post).
I imagine, as well, you've just convinced yourself that aggressiveness is normal human intercourse, and probably got written off as a malcontent by the priests long ago as a result.
I imagine from other threads and your reactions, you don't limit your Resistance leanings and open and angry criticism of the SSPX (and anyone who is not of your mindset) to anonymous online interactions. That, also, probably does not play well in your favor among SSPX priests.
One more think to take you to task on, Mark. You're picture of me is a bit dated. This is a more recent photo:
(http://www.kappit.com/img/pics/201602_1628_fhdeg_sm.jpg)
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"Ahh ... so you're personally involved."
I see. When you thought we hadn't made efforts you criticized us. Now that you see that we have made efforts, we are criticized fro being "personally involved" and "lack perspective." Your тαℓмυdic style is showing. At the risk of diverting the thread further, there's your fundamental mistake. The thread is not about me or the other messengers.
The thread is about a pattern of problems at Phoenix, none of which were created by us, our moods, or our table manners.
Are we fed up by now? Just maybe. And maybe too we recognize the tired old rabbis' trick of diverting a discussion of just criticism into a discussion about the messengers, just a variation on the theme of killing the messenger.
Re-focusing on the issues, some great, some small, updated
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) diverting donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 21 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports, etc.
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) the clandestine disappearance of Fr. Riccomini
(15) cancelling devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty haughty attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) cancelling the adult catechism classes,
(21) spending big money on a sports field and locker room while academics suffer,
(22) presenting the new church project as a fait accompli according to the dictates of the "usual suspects," the "insiders"
and, yes,
(23) the statues.
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One more thing to take you to task on, Mark. You're picture of me is a bit dated. This is a more recent photo:
(http://www.kappit.com/img/pics/201602_1628_fhdeg_sm.jpg)
With this photo, I think I'm beginning to understand where VLM is coming from ?
(https://blackmattersus.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/hhhhh-660x346.jpg)
He appears to be one of the plaintiffs who successfully sued Denny's for racial discrimination.
But, I still don't get the crux of his argument?
Is he suggesting, like Rodney King that... "we just all get along" with Father Stafki or... is he implying the Phoenix faithful should sue him? :thinking:
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He appears to be one of the plaintiffs who successfully sued Denny's for racial discrimination.
But, I still don't get the crux of his argument?
Is he suggesting, like Rodney King that... "we just all get along" with Father Stafki or... is he implying the Phoenix faithful should sue him?[/color] :thinking:
I hate having to explain jokes (especially self-deprecating humor).
The guy pictured is former Super Featherweight champion boxer Rocky Lockridge. It's from the program Intervention. After his boxing career he became a drug addict and because of it had a stroke. His sons got him on the program to try to get him help, and after a tearful plea from his son, Rocky replied with this goat-like cry that's become an Internet meme.
It's not Rodney King (though that'd have been a good idea), and as far as I know Lockridge didn't sue Denny's.
The point:
Mark, instead of actually replying to my words, mocks me as a screaming, whining toddler who wets his pants and refuses to listen to his brilliant reasoning.
He's incorrect. I'm not a toddler.
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He appears to be one of the plaintiffs who successfully sued Denny's for racial discrimination.
But, I still don't get the crux of his argument?
Is he suggesting, like Rodney King that... "we just all get along" with Father Stafki or... is he implying the Phoenix faithful should sue him?[/color] :thinking:
I hate having to explain jokes (especially self-deprecating humor).
The guy pictured is former Super Featherweight champion boxer Rocky Lockridge. It's from the program Intervention. After his boxing career he became a drug addict and because of it had a stroke. His sons got him on the program to try to get him help, and after a tearful plea from his son, Rocky replied with this goat-like cry that's become an Internet meme.
It's not Rodney King (though that'd have been a good idea), and as far as I know Lockridge didn't sue Denny's.
The point:
Mark, instead of actually replying to my words, mocks me as a screaming, whining toddler who wets his pants and refuses to listen to his brilliant reasoning.
He's incorrect. I'm not a toddler.
Your self-vaunted charity is showing.
Careful listening shows that you chastised us for not engaging, for not being ever so sweet, and when you found we have engaged meekly, you chastised us again. Like the hypocrite rabbis, you will try anything to deflect (or kill) the messengers of just criticism.
Presumptuous to "intervene" where you haven't lived.
Charity? Sure, we'll look to you.
Re-focusing on the issues, some great, some small, updated
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) diverting donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 21 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports, etc.
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) the clandestine disappearance of Fr. Riccomini
(15) cancelling devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty haughty attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) cancelling the adult catechism classes,
(21) spending big money on a sports field and locker room while academics suffer,
(22) presenting the new church project as a fait accompli according to the dictates of the "usual suspects," the "insiders"
and, yes,
(23) the statues.
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When you thought we hadn't made efforts you criticized us. Now that you see that we have made efforts, we are criticized fro being "personally involved" and "lack perspective."
Your personal involvement isn't the object of criticism, but it does explain your frustration and your reactions here.
You have a particular bias because of the way you have acted and the way you think you've been treated.
You also fall for a generalization fallacy. I was critical of your (singular) attitude. You are not some group. You are not the spokesman for any group. You can speak to your concerns. "We" doesn't work. I've singled you out because of your aggressiveness, name-calling, and stubborness.
The more you repeat the same pattern, the more reasonable it is to believe that is how you approached the priests in Phoenix. If so, it is easily understandable that as a result you became for them just a dissident malcontent they only want to dismissed.
Trying to lump yourself into a group that you've become spokesman for is another typical tactic of such rabble-rousing. I criticize your (singular) approach. I have no way of judging what I have not seen, but I've seen enough of you're words here to see your probably difficulties in Phoenix may have some basis in reality, but have as much, if not more to do with you.
And yes, you have shown a lack of perspective here. You return to your talking points over and over again, and dismiss any possible argument without any reasonable or gentlemanly response.
That does not mean that you may not have legitimate complaints. It sounds like perhaps there are some. I don't dismiss your "message" at all. I just think you're trying needing to delicately trim the hedges and you insist on using a jet engine to do so.
Your тαℓмυdic style is showing.
Like the hypocrite rabbis, you will try anything to deflect (or kill) the messengers of just criticism.
Case in point.
You deride everyone with whom you do not agree as a Jew, as if that's a good argument. Why the obsession?
Is it really you (self-professed pefectly sinless man -- "a pattern of problems at Phoenix, none of which were created by us, our moods, or our table manners.") vs. everyone else who is a Jew.
I'm no Jew. My bank manager could easily confirm that for you, if you wish.
At the risk of diverting the thread further, there's your fundamental mistake. The thread is not about me or the other messengers.
Sure it is!
There are two possibilities:
(1) The thread is about identifying problems in order to find solutions
(2) The thread is about identifying problems in order to wallow in self-pity and slander others.
Either way you are necessarily involved.
If (1) your one of the parties that is looking to get the problems fixed and have a role to play in achieving that, which involves the right strategy to get what you want.
If (2) it is not about finding solutions, and those complaining are bunch of rabble-rousing, malcontent whiners, self-identifying as such.
I hope, for your sake, it's the former. And, in fact, that's the assumption I've been making in offering the advice in the past posts. I don't assume you're of bad will, just a bit excited and excessive.
For instance I assume when you repeat:
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
You're just excited, because it's an illogical argument in these contexts.
No one is suggesting Fr. Crane acted correctly. Heck, I'd even say, if the report is accurate and we have the whole story (which perhaps we don't -- for instance, was the information given in the context of confession or in some confidence that seemed unbreakable) that might be criminal negligence.
Still, the only reason to keep Fr. Crane away from children is if he is a pedophile/perderast? Is that what you're suggesting? That he's a pedophile?
If he's not, how is having him near a school a problem? He may have had very bad judgement skills, but he's not actively trying to corrupt children is he? Is that what you're suggesting?
You're right that Sloniker needs to be kept far away from children. You're right that there was probably grave negligence in allowing him to participate in the camps.
But, you see, Mark, to tie in this to Fr. Crane and then the rest of the Phoenix situation is exactly the kind of ridiculous hyperbole and dramatization I suspect you've been aiming at the priest in Phoenix since early along. And that's exactly what's not going to help you get your complaints addressed.
Then there's this gem ...
Presumptuous to "intervene" where you haven't lived.
Haven't you decried the Post Falls "scandal".
Sounds awfully "Pharasaical" to borrow a phrase.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
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Yesterday Fr. Stafki announced that he was "given permission by the District" to default on the August mortgage payment.
Who else noticed that tall lanky usher hovering next Fr. Stafki's box until the Church was emptied after Mass? Noteworthy because that is not his custom.
Who else recalls that when the project was rushed because of new building codes and was under-funded, that we were told "the District" had loaned the money for the project. Last summer, however, Fr. Wegner announced that the loan was from a priest, no mention of "the District." Perhaps "the District" only made a bridge loan. Perhaps honesty is lacking.
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Read the reports. One of Sloniker's victims in Post Falls told Fr. Crane that Sloniker had whipped him while naked. Fr. Crane failed to report that child abuse. Note the Idaho law previously cited regarding reports of child abuse. Since Fr. Crane is quoted in the news as explaining why he didn't report the abuse (he says he thought the child was just trying to avoid the SSPX camp), we can safely take that as his tacit admission. Sloniker went on to sodomize several other children.
Fr. Crane is now at Our Lady of Sorrows in Phoenix where my family resides. I am not "intervening" in Post Falls; I am trying to protect my family in Phoenix from more malfeasance.
That is the type of problem that concerns us.
Further, I make no claim of being a spokesman, but several of us have discussed our concerns and I have accurately conveyed those complaints, hence "we" and "us" are apropos.
Our on-site experience trumps your off-site equivocation and speculation.
Your style is straight from the rabbis' playbook—kill the messenger. Similarly whether we engage meekly or refuse to engage, you find fault. Like the rabbis, you only allow criticism and critics and response that have been vetted by the perpetrators. Of course, no critic or criticism or response is ever vetted and all criticism vanishes through the magic of Kabbala. So, if the тαℓмυdic shoe fits...
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You've talked a lot about promises, and mentioned the windows among those -- that these windows are already paid for. Earlier in the thread it was discussed how the loan for the Church was taken out to ensure it's completion before stricter codes came in. There's several possibilities as to why the windows are not in place, including, perhaps, that in order to finish the church in time, that money needed to be spent, and' the priests thought that if collections stayed up, it could be replaced. I don't know that, but its one possibility that would explain what's happened. It also could be more simple mismanagement, but either way, you may be demanding the impossible, and your anger won't make the impossible possible.
So the priests took money given for one certain purpose(windows)that had been promoted during the Sunday mass sermon and used it for something else.
Well in the secular world that is called "bait and switch " and it is illegal it is theft
It does not matter what they ASSUMED
You are also right in insofar as we have spoke many times about promises made and let us not forget they were made from the pulpit
The faux-church we have now is nothing like the church described to us when they were passing out the forms for our pledges. Lets also keep in mind if they would have stuck to the original plans the church would be most likely done
instead we are left with this gargantuan unfinished nontraditional building saddled with massive cost overruns brought about largely due to those said changes
No one never protested with anger or rudeness ,we never made reports to district and we never called into question that the contractor for the entire church project was during this time the head of church finances.
We just quietly stopped donating to the building fund and for our effort we have been met with anger, threats and manipulative tactics `
BTW the stricter codes coming in...They would not have been a factor had we stuck to the original plan
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Your personal involvement isn't the object of criticism, but it does explain your frustration and your reactions here.
You have a particular bias because of the way you have acted and the way you think you've been treated.
You also fall for a generalization fallacy.
VeritasLM has overstayed their welcome on this thread by a good measure.
It is inappropriate for the them to be making comments on the situation, as they are not even in PHX, and the personal attacks on those who are actually in PHX is really crossing a line.
If VeritasLM had any sense of manners at all, they would excuse themselves from this conversation and leave it to the actual participants in PHX.
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You've talked a lot about promises, and mentioned the windows among those -- that these windows are already paid for. Earlier in the thread it was discussed how the loan for the Church was taken out to ensure it's completion before stricter codes came in. There's several possibilities as to why the windows are not in place, including, perhaps, that in order to finish the church in time, that money needed to be spent, and' the priests thought that if collections stayed up, it could be replaced. I don't know that, but its one possibility that would explain what's happened. It also could be more simple mismanagement, but either way, you may be demanding the impossible, and your anger won't make the impossible possible.
So the priests took money given for one certain purpose(windows)that had been promoted during the Sunday mass sermon and used it for something else.
Well in the secular world that is called "bait and switch " and it is illegal it is theft
It does not matter what they ASSUMED
As I wrote, I don't know that happened, but let's assume it did.
If so, you'd rather have windows plus an unfinished church that now has to have additional costs to meet new codes?
To be clear, a donation is not a contract, nor is the pledge of a donation.
BTW the stricter codes coming in...They would not have been a factor had we stuck to the original plan
Are you an architect?
Having worked on several $50 million plus construction projects as a professional engineer, I can promise you you're living in the clouds if you think that construction plans don't change, sometimes significantly during construction, and that unfinished structures are grandfathered into old codes.
I don't know all the details, but having spoken to some of the people involved in the construction back at the Consecration ceremony, it sounded like they barely managed to save some pretty huge expenses with changing codes by rushing things.
I also have no idea where the windows or money is, but if loans had to be taken out, it's quite possible, the windows had to be delayed. It's also possible that they are not yet built. There's only a few companies that still make stained glass, and I can't imagine they can produce on a dime.
Also having consulted on some movement of church goods for some independent chapels before, I can promise you that stained glass transfer is not easy, and usually very impractical.
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Read the reports. One of Sloniker's victims in Post Falls told Fr. Crane that Sloniker had whipped him while naked. Fr. Crane failed to report that child abuse. Note the Idaho law previously cited regarding reports of child abuse. Since Fr. Crane is quoted in the news as explaining why he didn't report the abuse (he says he thought the child was just trying to avoid the SSPX camp), we can safely take that as his tacit admission. Sloniker went on to sodomize several other children.
Fr. Crane is now at Our Lady of Sorrows in Phoenix where my family resides. I am not "intervening" in Post Falls; I am trying to protect my family in Phoenix from more malfeasance.
Again, your complaint was that Fr. Crane should not be around kids, implying that Fr. Crane is the pederast/pedophile.
Your complain was not, that Fr. Crane was a poor judge of character, and seemingly negligently so to a grave degree. Your complaint was that Phoenix has pattern of problems including no. 9 :
Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
You are saying that's a pattern of Phoenix problems, when it was a past grave transgression that has no relation to the past several years in Phoenix.
Fr. Crane is not in charge of the school. So unless he is a pedophile himself, what's the concern for your children, or the concern of his being around a school?
If you were being logical, you should object to him being in any kind of active ministry, but you're not being logical, you're just complaining and trying to make every possible evil thing stick, even by implicitly accusing Fr. Crane of pederasty.
That is the type of problem that concerns us.
Further, I make no claim of being a spokesman, but several of us have discussed our concerns and I have accurately conveyed those complaints, hence "we" and "us" are apropos.
But you are you, not some group of people.
Our on-site experience trumps your off-site equivocation and speculation.
Again, I thought it was you who said that it was "Presumptuous to 'intervene' where you haven't lived."
But again, you were one of the most frequent posters about the Post Falls "scandal" trying to publicize as much as possible about the boys whose reputations you've helped ruin.
You don't live in Post Falls. You read a bunch of gossip and decided to comment on it, yet you, Pharisaically said I shouldn't "interviene" in Phoenix.
Do you insist that of all here on this thread who are not physically in Phoenix?
Presumptuous to "intervene" where you haven't lived.
Your style is straight from the rabbis' playbook—kill the messenger.
But so is yours, then.
You attack me first as ignorant -- I must not have read the thread.
You engage in name-calling -- I'm just a child yelling with my ears plugged. I'm a "Rabbi", a "Tamudist"
You engage in illogical arguments to try to poison the well.
If the "Rabbi's playbook" is about killing the messenger, a mirror would do you a lot of good.
Similarly whether we engage meekly or refuse to engage, you find fault.
No. I don't think you've "engaged meekly" at all. I doubt you could, from your aggressiveness to anyone who questions you on the forum.
Like the rabbis, you only allow criticism and critics and response that have been vetted by the perpetrators.Of course, no critic or criticism or response is ever vetted and all criticism vanishes through the magic of Kabbala. So, if the тαℓмυdic shoe fits...
And exactly who didn't read ... I said I'd been lurking for a while, and wanted to offer some help here. I have no control over criticism or the responses here.
You can whine and complain and slander folks till your heart's content and I can do nothing about it, except to say you're just destroying your own reputation and case, if that's how you deal with people face-to-face.
I'm not your enemy, much as you wish me to be. I want you to have whatever reasonable goals you want in Phoenix.
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Your personal involvement isn't the object of criticism, but it does explain your frustration and your reactions here.
You have a particular bias because of the way you have acted and the way you think you've been treated.
You also fall for a generalization fallacy.
VeritasLM has overstayed their welcome on this thread by a good measure.
It is inappropriate for the them to be making comments on the situation, as they are not even in PHX, and the personal attacks on those who are actually in PHX is really crossing a line.
If VeritasLM had any sense of manners at all, they would excuse themselves from this conversation and leave it to the actual participants in PHX.
MW,
I haven't personally attacked anyone beyond what they've done to me.
I'm happy to bow out and leave the thread on that principle that I'm not a resident in Phoenix, on one condition:
That principle gets applied fairly and evenly.
As above, Mark was one of the principal posters on the "Post Falls 'Scandal'", yet he does not live there.
If we're going to enunciate the principle that you don't comment or participate in discussion that don't relate to your place of residence, if we're consistent, I'm happy to leave you to it.
Let yourself, Mark and others promise that they will abide by that principle and you'll hear no more from me.
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No one is suggesting Fr. Crane acted correctly. Heck, I'd even say, if the report is accurate and we have the whole story (which perhaps we don't -- for instance, was the information given in the context of confession or in some confidence that seemed unbreakable) that might be criminal negligence.
Still, the only reason to keep Fr. Crane away from children is if he is a pedophile/perderast? Is that what you're suggesting? That he's a pedophile?
If he's not, how is having him near a school a problem? He may have had very bad judgement skills, but he's not actively trying to corrupt children is he? Is that what you're suggesting?
You're right that Sloniker needs to be kept far away from children. You're right that there was probably grave negligence in allowing him to participate in the camps.
VeritasLuxMea,
Are you an SSPX priest, holy religious or working for the SSPX?
I ask, because in your arguments above, you're ignoring two things:
1. Accountability: Father Crane needs to be held accountable for his gross misjudgment in Sloniker's character.
Being put away in a monastery is on the top of the list.
2. Justice: Sloniker should be swinging at the end of rope for raping little boys.
There's been a tendency in the SSPX for the past 16 years to follow judaic norms in the areas of accountability and justice.
Case in point: I heard of an SSPX trying to explain-away our Catholic responsibility for making public reparation for the crime of abortion. He said it had become the social norm and there was not much that could be done about it.
This is the worldly compromise and philosophy of the newSSPX. We reject it!
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and we never called into question that the contractor for the entire church project was during this time (and still is -ed.) the head of church finances.
We just quietly stopped donating to the building fund and for our effort we have been met with anger, threats and manipulative tactics
And now we are finally getting to the heart of the matter that people are angry about in PHX....
.... secondary only to the primary matter people are angry about: Bp. Fellay's failure of leadership and its resulting split in 2012 and the shortly-imminent deal with Rome.
In government, as a federal employee, you are not allowed to form a company and bid on federal work. This would be self-enrichment and it is illegal.
We have a situation where a person, who used to be just another parishioner, is now in charge of the money of the parish, and is in charge of the building project itself. Therefore, you have essentially basically all the decision-making power in th ehands of one person, who is collecting the donations, and then is also getting paid to do the job.
It would have been more "above board" to have this person's company to have recused themselves from bidding on the job, so as to avoid any appearnace of impropriety.
If there is some sort of "board of directors" at OLOS who makes decisions for the parish, I am unaware of it, and have never seen any written materials to this effect.
If PHXGroup knows, perhaps they can enlighten the thread about this subject. I will say it is good that OLOS at least publishes their "incoming" money (the collections) but they do not offer any info on how the parishioner's money is spent or who makes those decisions.
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Yesterday Fr. Stafki announced that he was "given permission by the District" to default on the August mortgage payment.
Oh this is funny. Is the SSPX the "bank"?
The SSPX has become another puppet tentacle of the banksters.
(https://conspiracypsych.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/banker-comic.jpg?w=300&h=235)
Bp. Fellay better not try to print money or his religious career will come to an abrupt end.
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I'm happy to bow out and leave the thread on that principle that I'm not a resident in Phoenix, on one condition:
That principle gets applied fairly and evenly.
As above, Mark was one of the principal posters on the "Post Falls 'Scandal'", yet he does not live there.
If we're going to enunciate the principle that you don't comment or participate in discussion that don't relate to your place of residence, if we're consistent, I'm happy to leave you to it.
Let yourself, Mark and others promise that they will abide by that principle and you'll hear no more from me.
Veritas,
You do not understand WHY the PHX people are commenting on the Post Falls thread:
It is because after Sloniker was arrested, Fr. Crane showed up at our door a week later.
It is NOT because ANYONE thinks Fr. Crane is a pedophile priest - GET THIS STRAIGHT - it is because Fr. Crane has shown himself to be INCOMPETENT to make ANY decisions AT ALL that concern our children, because he IGNORED the direct report of a victim's parents regarding Sloniker's ABUSE of their child.
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VeritasLuxMea,
Are you an SSPX priest, holy religious or working for the SSPX?
I ask, because in your arguments above, you're ignoring two things:
1. Accountability: Father Crane needs to be held accountable for his gross misjudgment in Sloniker's character.
Being put away in a monastery is on the top of the list.
2. Justice: Sloniker should be swinging at the end of rope for raping little boys.
There's been a tendency in the SSPX for the past 16 years to follow judaic norms in the areas of accountability and justice.
Case in point: I heard of an SSPX trying to explain-away our Catholic responsibility for making public reparation for the crime of abortion. He said it had become the social norm and there was not much that could be done about it.
This is the worldly compromise and philosophy of the newSSPX. We reject it!
Well said!
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Are you an SSPX priest, holy religious or working for the SSPX?
No. I am not a priest or religious.
I previously worked for the SSPX (many moons ago) as a lay employee (local, not district). I haven't been employed by them in nearly a decade.
1. Accountability:[/b] Father Crane needs to be held accountable for his gross misjudgment in Sloniker's character.
Being put away in a monastery is on the top of the list.
Agreed. Priests, like everyone, should be held accountable.
Ultimately, how that's done is a prudential judgement of the superiors, if it's not a criminal action. So far in Fr. Crane's case, there are no charges.
I also know that we probably don't know the whole circuмstances, and I'm not willing to trust the newspapers to give me the whole truth.
2. Justice: Sloniker should be swinging at the end of rope for raping little boys.
Most certainly agreed!
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As I wrote, I don't know that happened, but let's assume it did.
If so, you'd rather have windows plus an unfinished church that now has to have additional costs to meet new codes?
To be clear, a donation is not a contract, nor is the pledge of a donation.
Are you an architect?
Having worked on several $50 million plus construction projects as a professional engineer, I can promise you you're living in the clouds if you think that construction plans don't change, sometimes significantly during construction, and that unfinished structures are grandfathered into old codes.
I also have no idea where the windows or money is, but if loans had to be taken out, it's quite possible, the windows had to be delayed. It's also possible that they are not yet built. There's only a few companies that still make stained glass, and I can't imagine they can produce on a dime.
Also having consulted on some movement of church goods for some independent chapels before, I can promise you that stained glass transfer is not easy, and usually very impractical.
Veritas,
This proves you have not read this thread.
The original architect for the building was fired from the project. Fired by the company that built it.
The stained glass has been extensively discussed here. The Church got a bid for new manufactured windows at $390K, but there are salvaged 120-year old German stained glass windows from a Church in Philadelphia available for about HALF that price that is of higher quality and greater beauty that will fit our Church. I don't know how much money was collected in total for the glass pledges (around $10K each, I think) but no glass has been purchased. Not for $390K and not for $180K.
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It is because after Sloniker was arrested, Fr. Crane showed up at our door a week later.
It is NOT because ANYONE thinks Fr. Crane is a pedophile priest - GET THIS STRAIGHT - it is because Fr. Crane has shown himself to be INCOMPETENT to make ANY decisions AT ALL that concern our children, because he IGNORED the direct report of a victim's parents regarding Sloniker's ABUSE of their child.
Look, I'm not trying to defend Fr. Crane at all. I have only a passing familiarity with who he is.
I'm also not trying to dismiss your concerns, either. But looking from outside both places (Phoenix and Post Falls), part of the trouble is that the Fr. Crane incident was a fairly long time ago, so we're dealing with a huge time lag on top of bad judgement. We're also probably dealing with the same lack of communication that's usual, plus privacy concerns, plus legal issues.
That's is not to defend things at all! Perish the thought!
It is simply to point out that the objection to Fr. Crane isn't about children at all, but as you yourself say, your distrust of his decision making. That's not limited to children, and to do so implicitly labels him.
My understanding is that he's not involved with the school in any direct way, and I kinda doubt he'll be doing boys camps anytime soon ...
I could be wrong, though.
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Veritas,
This proves you have not read this thread.
The original architect for the building was fired from the project. Fired by the company that built it.
The stained glass has been extensively discussed here. The Church got a bid for new manufactured windows at $390K, but there are salvaged 120-year old German stained glass windows from a Church in Philadelphia available for about HALF that price that is of higher quality and greater beauty that will fit our Church. I don't know how much money was collected in total for the glass pledges (around $10K each, I think) but no glass has been purchased. Not for $390K and not for $180K.
MW,
I did read the thread which was why I made mention of moving windows in my post. As I noted before, I've consulted on moving things from a church to another church before.
I figured you or someone else might bring it up, so I did want to make reference.
It's a pretty complex problem because it involves structural loads in the design of the window openings. I saw pictures of the church from where the altars came, and I am not so sure (having seen the church at the Consecration), that those windows would have fit.
Is that the church you were talking about?
I don't have plans or dimensions, nor do I want to evaluate the claim in detail, but I don't think the problem is as simple as you're presenting it. I could be wrong, of course.
I'm also not trying to say that the windows are to be dismissed, especially if sufficient money was collected for that purpose. I agree you should have windows if you've offered money for windows, and good ones!
I am wondering if with the acceleration of the construction and then slowing of collections if there was not a gap in funding due to that. I'm not saying that's right, just that that's a possible scenario that's understandable given the situation.
If so, that would explain one reason that withholding money is actually a Catch-22, causing the very problems you wish to solve.
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Is that the church you were talking about?
I don't have plans or dimensions, nor do I want to evaluate the claim in detail, but I don't think the problem is as simple as you're presenting it. I could be wrong, of course.
I'm also not trying to say that the windows are to be dismissed, especially if sufficient money was collected for that purpose. I agree you should have windows if you've offered money for windows, and good ones!
I am wondering if with the acceleration of the construction and then slowing of collections if there was not a gap in funding due to that. I'm not saying that's right, just that that's a possible scenario that's understandable given the situation.
If so, that would explain one reason that withholding money is actually a Catch-22, causing the very problems you wish to solve.
Yes, those windows will fit. It's not a question.
The money slowed down this year.
Most probably, in response to the dreadful treatment of the faithful by Fr. Wegner from the pulpit, coupled with the latest developments by Bp. Fellay showing the deal to be coming soon.
The money for the windows being misspent came before all this.
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We have a situation where a person, who used to be just another parishioner, is now in charge of the money of the parish, and is in charge of the building project itself. Therefore, you have essentially basically all the decision-making power in the hands of one person, who is collecting the donations, and then is also getting paid to do the job.
It would have been more "above board" to have this person's company to have recused themselves from bidding on the job, so as to avoid any appearnace of impropriety.
Agreed, except, perhaps they bid low enough that it was far below other companies.
In such a case, it the changing of the guard on the finances would have been in order.
I'm pretty sure the bids for the large are evaluated by the district, not the parishes, but you're right about the appearances here.
Basic HR and PR skills has been one massive problem on so many levels even beyond Phoenix ...
If PHXGroup knows, perhaps they can enlighten the thread about this subject. I will say it is good that OLOS at least publishes their "incoming" money (the collections) but they do not offer any info on how the parishioner's money is spent or who makes those decisions.
Parishes should most certainly give such reports (at least annually), if for no other reason than to help people understand that money is not being wasted.
Annual financial reports were pretty run of the mill stuff for parishes long ago.
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Is that the church you were talking about?
I don't have plans or dimensions, nor do I want to evaluate the claim in detail, but I don't think the problem is as simple as you're presenting it. I could be wrong, of course.
I'm also not trying to say that the windows are to be dismissed, especially if sufficient money was collected for that purpose. I agree you should have windows if you've offered money for windows, and good ones!
I am wondering if with the acceleration of the construction and then slowing of collections if there was not a gap in funding due to that. I'm not saying that's right, just that that's a possible scenario that's understandable given the situation.
If so, that would explain one reason that withholding money is actually a Catch-22, causing the very problems you wish to solve.
Yes, those windows will fit. It's not a question.
The money slowed down this year.
Most probably, in response to the dreadful treatment of the faithful by Fr. Wegner from the pulpit, coupled with the latest developments by Bp. Fellay showing the deal to be coming soon.
The money for the windows being misspent came before all this.
My recollection was, however, that the Philadelphia church has a much larger sanctuary and nave?
But, fair enough. I don't have any contrary evidence, so I'll take your word for it.
(See, I'm not just around to disagree or be mean ...)
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and we never called into question that the contractor for the entire church project was during this time (and still is -ed.) the head of church finances.
We just quietly stopped donating to the building fund and for our effort we have been met with anger, threats and manipulative tactics
And now we are finally getting to the heart of the matter that people are angry about in PHX....
.... secondary only to the primary matter people are angry about: Bp. Fellay's failure of leadership and its resulting split in 2012 and the shortly-imminent deal with Rome.
In government, as a federal employee, you are not allowed to form a company and bid on federal work. This would be self-enrichment and it is illegal.
We have a situation where a person, who used to be just another parishioner, is now in charge of the money of the parish, and is in charge of the building project itself. Therefore, you have essentially basically all the decision-making power in th ehands of one person, who is collecting the donations, and then is also getting paid to do the job.
It would have been more "above board" to have this person's company to have recused themselves from bidding on the job, so as to avoid any appearnace of impropriety.
If there is some sort of "board of directors" at OLOS who makes decisions for the parish, I am unaware of it, and have never seen any written materials to this effect.
If PHXGroup knows, perhaps they can enlighten the thread about this subject. I will say it is good that OLOS at least publishes their "incoming" money (the collections) but they do not offer any info on how the parishioner's money is spent or who makes those decisions.
You have hit one of the many nails on the head.
Even the appearance of a conflict of interest should have been avoided. The problem is all the more glaring now that Fr. Stafki has defaulted on the August mortgage payment.
Too, why did the original architect not finish the project? It is alleged that he was discharged from the project. Who then made the "change orders" for the alleged cost over-runs? Who is the parish accountant? Does he work for the construction company also? Was there competitive bidding? If so, how did the bid compare to the actual costs compared to other bidders?
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I'm also not trying to dismiss your concerns, either. But looking from outside both places (Phoenix and Post Falls), part of the trouble is that the Fr. Crane incident was a fairly long time ago, so we're dealing with a huge time lag on top of bad judgement. We're also probably dealing with the same lack of communication that's usual, plus privacy concerns, plus legal issues.
Get your facts straight!
The involvement of Fr. Crane was NOT long ago.
Sloniker was photographing his victims nude in SEPTEMBER 2015. He was arrested in September in Wisconsin and indicted in Idaho in October 2015. Fr. Crane showed up here just before the All Saint's Day party on Halloween night.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/trucker-kicked-out-of-seminary-for-self-circuмcision-admits-to-molesting-9-boys-at-anti-semitic-church-police/
http://www.kxly.com/news/north-idaho-news/post-falls-man-admits-abusing-boys-for-last-decade/36083196
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BTW, Fr. Crane was NOT previously a cop.
He was a game warden.
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Before we begin lets get a couple of things straight
First , you are being purposely obtuse asking the same questions over and over in a sarcastic rewording We are getting increasingly tired of humoring you
Second , You seem to have a great deal of knowledge about our particular issues and unending explanations for why you just happen to know all this pertinent information
As I wrote, I don't know that happened, but let's assume it did.
Yeah right Your deeper inside OLOS then anyone else on this board and we dont need to assume it
you'd rather have windows plus an unfinished church that now has to have additional costs to meet new codes?
As we have stated and you are well aware Those 2 things are not an either-or situation
Again...if they would have stuck to the original plan an not made costly cosmetic interior changes we would not be in this situation
It had nothing to do with new codes, old codes or any codes most of the changes were made when when we got a new contractor and Prior, well before any codes were an issue .....as if you didnt know :rolleyes:
To be clear, a donation is not a contract, nor is the pledge of a donation.
Oh but acording to the church it is.At least the collection of those pledges
kind of one sided dont you think?
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To be clear, a donation is not a contract, nor is the pledge of a donation.
Oh but acording to the church it is.At least the collection of those pledges
kind of one sided dont you think?
This is an important point -- unfortunately it was buried in a large post by PhxGroup.
It does seem to be self-serving and one-sided that (according to the SSPX) pledges of donations MUST be carried out, under pain of sin -- but once you give the money to the SSPX they don't have to honor any promises or obligations about how that money is to be spent.
Actually, according to the US Law for non-profits, when money is collected for Purpose X it *must* be used for Purpose X.
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It is because after Sloniker was arrested, Fr. Crane showed up at our door a week later.
It is NOT because ANYONE thinks Fr. Crane is a pedophile priest - GET THIS STRAIGHT - it is because Fr. Crane has shown himself to be INCOMPETENT to make ANY decisions AT ALL that concern our children, because he IGNORED the direct report of a victim's parents regarding Sloniker's ABUSE of their child.
Look, I'm not trying to defend Fr. Crane at all. I have only a passing familiarity with who he is.
I'm also not trying to dismiss your concerns, either. But looking from outside both places (Phoenix and Post Falls), part of the trouble is that the Fr. Crane incident was a fairly long time ago, so we're dealing with a huge time lag on top of bad judgement. We're also probably dealing with the same lack of communication that's usual, plus privacy concerns, plus legal issues.
That's is not to defend things at all! Perish the thought!
It is simply to point out that the objection to Fr. Crane isn't about children at all, but as you yourself say, your distrust of his decision making. That's not limited to children, and to do so implicitly labels him.
My understanding is that he's not involved with the school in any direct way, and I kinda doubt he'll be doing boys camps anytime soon ...
I could be wrong, though.
Once again, you talk out of both sides of your mouth.
There is nothing "implicit" when we have explicitly stated that his malfeasance regarding children and his presence in proximity to children (a K-12 school) are the problems. Frankly, I think it is also a problem that he has neither publicly apologized for his notorious lapse nor been punished for his poor judgment that harmed more children by delaying police attention to Sloniker.
There is absolutely nothing that anyone has said here implying that Fr. Crane himself is a pedophile. Your inference is a slander, my "charitable" interlocutor. Fr. Crane's gross malfeasance certainly allowed the sodomy of other children because the police were not notified as soon as, according to the law, they otherwise should have been notified.
You indicated your approval of hanging pederasts. What about enablers and the grossly malfeasant? What is their appropriate punishment? Musical chairs to another location with children? What is the appropriate punishment for the person who penned this on October 29, 2015:
"To date, the Society of St. Pius X has not been advised of any report of criminal activity at the church or on the summer camps"? http://icc.id.sspx.org/en/faithful
As if whipping a naked child isn't "criminal activity" and shouldn't be reported to the police as long as the whipping isn't "at the church or on the summer camps"? What kind of pilpul is that?
In the presence of explicit statements about the precise concerns, shall we judge your "implicit" imaginings as evidence of your lack of perspicacity and/or dyslexia and/or ill will efforts to kill the messengers and/or other disqualifying deficiency?
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Who is the parish accountant? Does he work for the construction company also?
During the entire reign of Fr. R they were one and the same ..well to be more accurate
after the first contractor was dismissed they were one and the same
also many of the sub-contractors were "friends of the family " if you get our meaning
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Who is the parish accountant? Does he work for the construction company also?
During the entire reign of Fr. R they were one and the same ..well to be more accurate
after the first contractor was dismissed they were one and the same
also many of the sub-contractors were "friends of the family " if you get our meaning
It would be interesting to see all the original bids and then see if the final cost outstripped the unsuccessful original bidders.
Watch me hold my breath waiting for that information. (laughing)
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Frankly, I think it is also a problem that he has neither publicly apologized for his notorious lapse nor been punished for his poor judgment that harmed more children by delaying police attention to Sloniker.
There is absolutely nothing that anyone has said here implying that Fr. Crane himself is a pedophile.
What is the appropriate punishment for the person who penned this on October 29, 2015:
"To date, the Society of St. Pius X has not been advised of any report of criminal activity at the church or on the summer camps"? http://icc.id.sspx.org/en/faithful
As if whipping a naked child isn't "criminal activity" and shouldn't be reported to the police?
^^THIS^^
How many other kids were raped due to Fr. Crane's actions/inactions?
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And the children of the Lord of the Flies buzzing around here wonder aloud why I make comparisons of their style to the #$%^& rabbis....
The Rothschild-Gutmann Money Behind the SSPX Kosher Imperative
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
Traducción parcial al Español aquí: MAS DE LA FUNDACION JAIDHOF (http://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com.br/2012/11/mas-de-la-fundacion-jaidhof.html)
'The Remnant' has published an 'interview' with SSPX lawyer and asset manager Maximillian Krah (http://remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2012-1031-siscoe-krah-interview.htm) in which he makes a statement regarding his involvement with a Jaidhofer Foundation:
Siscoe: Another company name that is mentioned is Jaidhofer Foundation. Can you discuss this company?
Krah: Yes, this is linked with the SSPX ... There is a family in Austria which wanted to donate to the SSPX, but did not want to donate directly. They wanted to establish a foundation that would support the SSPX. And in every foundation you need some trustees. It’s a kind of trust, and I am one of the trustees. I was chosen by the family who established the foundation ... This foundation is supporting the SSPX and using the money which was donated by this family. As an example, it is supporting the new Seminary project in Virginia ...
Below is a picture of Maximillian Krah at Jaidhof with members of the Austrian Gutmann family he describes above as benefactors of the SSPX:
(http://media05.regionaut.meinbezirk.at/2012/05/18/1301938_web.jpg?1337340581)
http://www.meinbezirk.at/krems-an-der-donau/chronik/jaidhof-hat-neue-park-kapelle-d182795.html (http://www.meinbezirk.at/krems-an-der-donau/chronik/jaidhof-hat-neue-park-kapelle-d182795.html)
From the Rothschild family archive we find some background on the Gutmann family and how its wealth was amassed:
The steel heart of Czechoslovakia, as Frankova names it, was once owned by the Austrian Rothschilds, in partnership with the Gutmann brothers [Wilhelm and David] ... It is Salomon von Rothschild who, in 1844, bought the iron works, and founded the United Coal Mines of Vítkovice and Austro-Hungarian Blast Furnace Company ... Salomon’s English cousins helped fund the creation of De Beers in 1887.
http://www.rothschildarchive.org/ib/?doc=/ib/articles/vitkovice (http://www.rothschildarchive.org/ib/?doc=/ib/articles/vitkovice)
The Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia gives us the proper name of the Gutmanns who partnered with Salomon Rothschild:
GUTMANN, WILHELM, RITTER VON: ...In 1853 he and his brother David established the firm which, during the war of 1859-60, despite the difficulties then surrounding business ventures, supplied coal for all the railroads, for all the great factories throughout the empire, and for the cities of Vienna, Budapest, and Brünn. Gutmann Bros. leased some coal-mines from the Rothschilds in 1865, and purchased outright other valuable carboniferous properties in Silesia, Galicia, and Hungary. The close connection between coal and the production of iron easily led the Gutmanns to combine their interests with the Witkowitz iron-works, which they afterward owned conjointly with the Rothschilds and the counts Larisch and Andrassy. With Kuffner they built (1871) the first sugar-factory in Austria ...
http://www.Jєωιѕнencyclopedia.com/articles/6962-gutmann-wilhelm-ritter-von (http://www.Jєωιѕнencyclopedia.com/articles/6962-gutmann-wilhelm-ritter-von)
From the Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia we find that Wilhelm von Gutmann partnered with the Rothschilds in financing a rabbinical seminary in Vienna:
ISRAELITISCH-THEOLOGISCHE LEHRANSTALT: Rabbinical and teachers' seminary in Vienna, founded 1893 at the suggestion of Wilhelm and David von Guttmann and with the assistance of Albert von Rothschild and Freiherr von Königswarter, and opened Oct. 15 of that year. It is subventioned by the Austrian government, by the "Cultusgemeinden" of Vienna, Prague, and Lemberg, and by the "Landesjudenschaft" of Bohemia, and is governed by fifteen curators. The first president was Baron von Königswarter, who, at his death, was succeeded by Moritz Karpeles; the latter was followed by Moritz Edler von Kuffner.
http://www.Jєωιѕнencyclopedia.com/articles/8305-israelitisch-theologische-lehranstalt (http://www.Jєωιѕнencyclopedia.com/articles/8305-israelitisch-theologische-lehranstalt)
From an obituary for one of Wilhelm von Gutmann's sons, Moritz, we find that he was a relative of the Rothschilds of Vienna:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WHYq81RKaa0/UJLU3LkwNII/AAAAAAAAA2c/-iWfK9_ShY8/s400/Baron%2BMortiz%2BVon%2BGuttman%252C%2BVienna%2BJew%252C%2BCoal%2BKing%252C%2BDies_1351799956608)
http://archive.jta.org/article/1934/07/15/2816446/baron-mortiz-von-guttman-vienna-jew-coal-king-dies (http://archive.jta.org/article/1934/07/15/2816446/baron-mortiz-von-guttman-vienna-jew-coal-king-dies)
Below is a historical overview of the Gutmann family and its ownership of the Jaidhof property, which the Austrian branch of the SSPX is based from, beginning with the Rothschild partner Wilhelm Ritter von Gutmann bringing us to the present heir Guntard Gutmann who is pictured above with Maximillian Krah at an SSPX chapel on the Jaidhof grounds:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-q6hLu4XQVzY/UJLOT-cHFsI/AAAAAAAAA1E/-ewDk3sJsvA/s400/Jaidhof%2Bfamily%2Bhistory%2B)
http://www.altes-eishaus.at/familie%20gutmann.htm (http://www.altes-eishaus.at/familie%20gutmann.htm)
Below is a brief history of the Jaidhof property and its ownership including how the Jaidhof castle was given to the SSPX by the Gutmann family:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EpSSy2StYkQ/UJLRCtpo1pI/AAAAAAAAA1w/WGqQjIHXCOc/s400/SSPX%2BGutmann%2BJaidhof%2Bcastle.png)
http://www.jaidhof.at/index.php?channel=113&content=1513 (http://www.jaidhof.at/index.php?channel=113&content=1513)
Below is a webpage from a "Europa Institute" which Guntard Gutmann seems to serve as an advisor on matters including think tanks and economics. He's credited as working for many years as an international banker. This Europa Institute seems to be associated with the Acton Institute which serves to acclimate Catholics to predatory economics and 'neo-con' politics. It's figurehead, Fr. Sirico officiated at the first ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ 'marriage' in the U.S:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ffqoMqCdmbc/UJLgAqKQYlI/AAAAAAAAA3I/FBjgw6A1wJY/s400/Gutmann%2BEuropa%2BActon)
http://www.europainstitut.at/mitarbeiter/mitarbeiter_detail.php?ID=31 (http://www.europainstitut.at/mitarbeiter/mitarbeiter_detail.php?ID=31)
Also see:
Maximilian Krah's Zionist, Philo-Judaic, 'Neocon' bona fides (http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/05/sspx-superior-bishop-fellays-zionist.html)
SSPX Superior Bp. Fellay's Lawyer/Business Partner's Visit to Israeli Military Special Forces Base Docuмented (http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/06/sspx-superior-bp-fellays-lawyerbusiness.html)
Maximilian Krah's Handler, Oren Heiman Co-Chairs Zionist Organization with Former Head of Mossad, Meir Dagan (http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/06/maximilian-krahs-handler-oren-heiman-co.html)
SSPX Bishop Fellay's Lawyer/Business Partner Attends Israeli Fundraiser (http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2010/11/bishop-fellays-lawyerbusiness-partner.html)
Bonetus (http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/09/bonetus.html) [especially worth reading to understanding the Judaizing of the rotate caeli blog]
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With special reference to selling usury (http://judaism.is/usury.html) to "traditional" Catholics à la Fr. Wegner's "justice" of paying interest on a simple loan of money:
Bonetus
Followers of the Kosher-Catholic containment operation "Rorate-Caeli" may recall "New Catholic" (scroll down to the comments) (http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2008/04/hasten-coming-of-gods-kingdom-in-this.html) turning his audience over to a guest contributor by the name "Bonetus" with the endorsement, "We are pleased to introduce our new contributor, Bonetus, a very wise and pious man."
And with this prodding of the traditional goyim to learn at the feet of the "very wise man," "Bonetus" proceeded with a transparent, condescending agenda of defining the boundaries for acceptable speech on the topic of 'The Jews' beginning by dredging up a ridiculous paen to the alleged racial prestige of today's Khazar 'Jews' of whom it is alleged "Christ was born according to the flesh" (http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2008/04/first-vatican-council-and-conversion-of.html) and "the Immaculate Virgin Mary [is] already their sister according to the flesh" in blatant mockery of St. John the Baptist (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=3&l=8#x), St. Paul (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=55&ch=3&l=16#x), and Jesus Christ who had no tolerance for such racial boasting, even from true genetic Israelites of His time (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=8&l=37-44#x).
I mention "New Catholic's" (http://www.Jєωιѕнvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Marranos.html) heralding of the "very wise [Judaizing] man" "Bonetus" as an introduction to docuмentation on the early 16th century figure, "Bonetus," the rabbi/physician/'prophet'/astrologer (https://books.google.com/books?id=IbvlQFj4YfUC&pg=PA465&lpg=PA465&dq=BONEtus+physician+pope&source=bl&ots=gtkignVbPQ&sig=x1lNGpPG8uimuSiqgYxY9zyn9b4&hl=en#v=onepage&q=BONEtus%20physician%20pope&f=false) to who is commonly regarded as the most corrupt pope in the history of the Church, the Borgia pope, Alexander VI.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9EeHHQq107Y/UFf-3TRtUQI/AAAAAAAAAq4/XUkiiakVlvc/s400/Screen%2Bshot%2B2012-09-18%2Bat%2B12.54.38%2BAM.png)
Contemporaries of Erasmus: a biographical register of the Renaissance and Reformation, Volumes 1-3, Page 196 (https://books.google.com/books?id=hruQ386SfFcC&pg=RA2-PA196&lpg=RA2-PA196&dq=BONEtus+Jacob+ben+Emmanuel&source=bl&ots=o5pjFq_J0L&sig=4piCgdp8jxVbeORyBMdVYzrSoh0&hl=en#v=onepage&q=BONEtus%20Jacob%20ben%20Emmanuel&f=false)
From the Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia (http://www.Jєωιѕнencyclopedia.com/articles/3526-bonet-de-lates):
BONET DE LATES or LATTES (known in Hebrew as Jacob ben Immanuel Provinciale):
Physician and astrologer; known chiefly as the inventor of an astronomical ring-dial by means of which solar and stellar altitudes can be measured and the time determined with great precision by night as well as by day; lived in the latter part of the fifteenth century and the beginning of the sixteenth. Originally from Provence, and belonging to a family that had its origin in Lattes near Montpellier, he was forced to leave Provence with the rest of his brethren and settled in Carpentras. Thence he went to Rome, where he became physician to Pope Alexander VI. (1430-1503), and later to Pope Leo X. (1503-13). At this time he became rabbi of the Jєωιѕн community, to which he was able to render much assistance. He married the daughter of the physician Comprat Mossé of Aix. Bonet described the use of his instrument in a treatise written in Carpentras, the full title of which is: "Boneti de Latis, Medici Provenzalis, Annuli per eum Composti Super Astrologiæ Utilitate." It appeared as a supplement to the "Calculatio Composta in Rima de Juliano de Dati," Rome, 1493, and was dedicated to Pope Alexander VI. At the end Bonet craves pardon for his bad Latin, on the score of being a Hebrew. The treatise was republished by Jacob Faber of Etaples, together with his own commentary on John Sacrobosco's "De Sphæra Mundi" and Euclid's "Geometry," Paris, 1500. Editions were also published in 1507, 1521, and 1534. Two editions appeared later at Marburg, in 1537 and 1557. In bad Latin, Bonet wrote a treatise entitled "Prognosticuм," published at Rome in 1498, and dedicated to cardinals Valentiniani and De Borgia, in which he predicted the coming of the Messiah in the year 1505 [!]. A full account of the book is to be found in Abraham Farrisol's manuscript, "Magen Abraham," or "Wikua? ha-Dat."
A pupil of the above-mentioned Jacob Faber, Charles Bovillus, 1470-1553, relates in the preface to his "Dialogi de Trinitate" that he met Bonet de Lates in the Roman ghetto in 1507, and went to his house in order to see the ring that he had invented ...
It is evidence of the position held by Bonet at the papal court that on Oct. 13, 1513, ['Christian Kabbalist' Johannes] Reuchlin begged him to use his influence in order that the examination of the "Augenspiegel" [his defense against the heresy proceedings against him] should not be given into the hands of a commission made up of strangers [that is, believing Catholics], at all events not of Dominicans. Further, Bonet's intercession seems to have been successful.
Bonet is known to have had two sons. One, Joseph, continued to remain in the papal favor; the other, Immanuel, was also in the service of the pope, from whom he received a regular salary.
http://www.Jєωιѕнencyclopedia.com/articles/3526-bonet-de-lates (http://www.Jєωιѕнencyclopedia.com/articles/3526-bonet-de-lates)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NSwqltzpGBM/UFf8SgcBwqI/AAAAAAAAAqU/MVuJcgKFS7Y/s400/Screen%2Bshot%2B2012-09-18%2Bat%2B12.43.07%2BAM.png)
A History of Magic and Experimental Science: Fourteenth and Fifteenth Centuries, Lynn Thorndyke (https://books.google.com/books?id=IbvlQFj4YfUC&pg=PA465&lpg=PA465&dq=BONEtus+physician+pope&source=bl&ots=gtkignWbSQ&sig=Wkgyxo5Y0oJo0KUuUN-6Uskeg3g&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Bonetus&f=false)
Dear reader, a certain contingent of traditional Catholics is attempting to resurrect the most depraved aspects of corrupt Renaissance era, Judaizing, superstitious, usurious 'Catholicism'. Beware. (emphasis added)
Also see:
The 'Christian' Nobleman/'Court-Jew' Relationship (http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/04/christian-nobleman-court-jew.html)
"Sistine Secrets" (http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2008/05/sistine-secrets.html)
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the process: Rothschild > Gutmann > Jaidhoff > Krah > Fellay > Wegner > the renters
...and a dishonorable mention of the Judaizing accomplices at Rorate caeli
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(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRDOKmQKWPDCy4J8P5PsHEXIvvW1M2LFmYF6S09VaV1YMrtE2kXVg)
"One of the more clever Goy finally figured it out!"
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VerLM
I get the reason the priest have expressed those concern. Once statues, pictures, vestments or other items are brought into a church, they have a way of staying, even when better items are acquired.
Yet there's a balance to be had, too. Perhaps some of the nicer items could be refinished to match, and indeed, to have only two statues in the church is a bit Spartan.
You claim to have "seen" the old Phx church? what the H!@# are you talking about then? The statues in the old church were beautiful, i saw them myself when singing the consecration mass for the Retreat house in the 90's. your comment on statues is ridiculous. You should actually listen to what is being said then think about it and then comment.
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The Rothschild-Gutmann Money Behind the SSPX Kosher Imperative
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-rothschild-gutmann-money-behind.html
'The Remnant' has published an 'interview' with SSPX lawyer and asset manager Maximillian Krah (http://remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2012-1031-siscoe-krah-interview.htm) in which he makes a statement regarding his involvement with a Jaidhofer Foundation:
Siscoe: Another company name that is mentioned is Jaidhofer Foundation. Can you discuss this company?
Krah: Yes, this is linked with the SSPX ... There is a family in Austria which wanted to donate to the SSPX, but did not want to donate directly. They wanted to establish a foundation that would support the SSPX. And in every foundation you need some trustees. It’s a kind of trust, and I am one of the trustees. I was chosen by the family who established the foundation ... This foundation is supporting the SSPX and using the money which was donated by this family. As an example, it is supporting the new Seminary project in Virginia ...
Below is a picture of Maximillian Krah at Jaidhof with members of the Austrian Gutmann family he describes above as benefactors of the SSPX:
Excellent research, Mark79.
Makes one wonder why Fr. Wegner was browbeating the parishioners so hard on coughing up more money, when the SSPX apparently has millions.
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He appears to be one of the plaintiffs who successfully sued Denny's for racial discrimination.
But, I still don't get the crux of his argument?
Is he suggesting, like Rodney King that... "we just all get along" with Father Stafki or... is he implying the Phoenix faithful should sue him?[/color] :thinking:
I hate having to explain jokes (especially self-deprecating humor).
The guy pictured is former Super Featherweight champion boxer Rocky Lockridge. It's from the program Intervention. After his boxing career he became a drug addict and because of it had a stroke. His sons got him on the program to try to get him help, and after a tearful plea from his son, Rocky replied with this goat-like cry that's become an Internet meme.
It's not Rodney King (though that'd have been a good idea), and as far as I know Lockridge didn't sue Denny's.
The point:
Mark, instead of actually replying to my words, mocks me as a screaming, whining toddler who wets his pants and refuses to listen to his brilliant reasoning.
He's incorrect. I'm not a toddler.
Your self-vaunted charity is showing.
Careful listening shows that you chastised us for not engaging, for not being ever so sweet, and when you found we have engaged meekly, you chastised us again. Like the hypocrite rabbis, you will try anything to deflect (or kill) the messengers of just criticism.
Presumptuous to "intervene" where you haven't lived.
Charity? Sure, we'll look to you.
Re-focusing on the issues, some great, some small, updated
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) diverting donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 21 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports, etc.
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) the clandestine disappearance of Fr. Riccomini
(15) cancelling devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty haughty attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) cancelling the adult catechism classes,
(21) spending big money on a sports field and locker room while academics suffer,
(22) presenting the new church project as a fait accompli according to the dictates of the "usual suspects," the "insiders"
and, yes,
(23) the statues.
(12) approximately 17 21 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports, etc
Does this include the confessions for the children in the academy which would not be published in the bulletin?
Does this include the confessions for mothers on Tuesdays?
(20) cancelling the adult catechism classes.
The directors of the catechism class just sent out an email stating there will be adult catechism class and adult conversion classes.
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(12) approximately 17 21 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports, etc
Does this include the confessions for the children in the academy which would not be published in the bulletin?
Does this include the confessions for mothers on Tuesdays?
(20) cancelling the adult catechism classes.
The directors of the catechism class just sent out an email stating there will be adult catechism class and adult conversion classes.
The recently added mothers' confessions is what increased the estimate from 17 to 21 seconds per family per week (using an estimate of 600 families).
Doesn't include the unpublished confession times.
Yes, we look forward to the recently announced adult classes.... and, in your honor have revised the list:
Re-focusing on the issues, some great, some small, updated
Version 3.0 the Aleah edition
(1) "kill the messenger" or "too busy to talk about it" response to inquiries from the laity
(2) airy-fairy sermons bereft of teachings on the errors of Vatican 2. the Jews, immodesty, etc.
(3) abusive sermons against the "renters"
(4) heterodox sermons condoning
(a) usury by a priest no less—stating that a priest is justified in charging interest on a loan of money
(b) "the Holy Ghost is like a mother"
(5) foisting a school play authored by the most internationally infamous pederast of the 20th century (Oscar Wilde)
(6) foisting a play that presents Jews as innocent victims (Fiddler on the Roof)
(7) diverting donations that were earmarked for stained glass windows
(8) the horrible sound system
(9) the presence of Fr. Crane in proximity to a K-12 school. Fr. Crane is the one who ignored a child's report that he had been whipped while naked by the pederast Sloniker. Sloniker went on to rape several other children because Fr. Crane failed to report Sloniker to the police
(10) disbanding of the Holy Name Society
(11) ending of most evening masses
(12) approximately 17 21 seconds of scheduled confession time per family per week while the priests have plenty of time to play sports, etc.
(13) fewer Masses since the new church was dedicated
(14) the clandestine disappearance of Fr. Riccomini
(15) cancelling devotions
(16) secularization of the All Saints party at school
(17) secularization of the St. Joseph's Table benefit
(18) decrying children playing near the Pieta statue in the "garden"
(19) snotty haughty attitude of some ushers regarding the concerns of the congregation
(20) spending big money on a sports field and locker room while academics suffer,
(21) presenting the new church project as a fait accompli according to the dictates of the "usual suspects," the "insiders"
and, yes,
(22) the statues.
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As long as you are revising the list, I would cut out the complaint about the Holy Ghost sermon, which is beyond ridiculous. Several people have pointed out that it was comparing the love of the Trinity to the love within a family. A perfectly serviceable analogy, and anything but heterodox.
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As long as you are revising the list, I would cut out the complaint about the Holy Ghost sermon, which is beyond ridiculous. Several people have pointed out that it was comparing the love of the Trinity to the love within a family. A perfectly serviceable analogy, and anything but heterodox.
Two questions on the sermon:
1. Was it love of the Holy Ghost... or love of the Holy Trinity ?
2. Was it feminine or masculine love?
(http://frenchtribune.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article/motherly-care.jpg)
(http://raisdata.com/blog/en/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/3.rais-data-saude-instinto-paternal-700.jpg?f901fd)
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As long as you are revising the list, I would cut out the complaint about the Holy Ghost sermon, which is beyond ridiculous. Several people have pointed out that it was comparing the love of the Trinity to the love within a family. A perfectly serviceable analogy, and anything but heterodox.
As soon as you quote the Early Fathers expressing a unanimous opinion that "the Holy Ghost is like a Mother," I will gladly scratch #4b.
If "the Holy Ghost is like a mother," the teaching should be traceable to Jesus and the Apostles.
Scroll down to "Shekinah": http://judaism.is/paganism.html
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Who is the parish accountant? Does he work for the construction company also?
During the entire reign of Fr. R they were one and the same ..well to be more accurate
after the first contractor was dismissed they were one and the same
also many of the sub-contractors were "friends of the family " if you get our meaning
It would be interesting to see all the original bids and then see if the final cost outstripped the unsuccessful original bidders.
Watch me hold my breath waiting for that information. (laughing)
We do apologize for not bringing that fact to light earlier we believed it was common knowledge as the contractor had signs up everwhere ,not to mention a permanent plaque
embedded in the cement outside on the walkway
You know also this is the same contractor who built the performing arts center
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As long as you are revising the list, I would cut out the complaint about the Holy Ghost sermon, which is beyond ridiculous. Several people have pointed out that it was comparing the love of the Trinity to the love within a family. A perfectly serviceable analogy, and anything but heterodox.
Two questions on the sermon:
1. Was it love of the Holy Ghost... or love of the Holy Trinity ?
2. Was it feminine or masculine love?
There is no such thing as "masculine or feminine" love. There is love, which can be manifested in different ways. Within the Trinity, the love of the Holy Ghost most closely resembles that of the mother within the family. Thence the analogy. It's really not that complicated.
As soon as you quote the Early Fathers expressing a unanimous opinion that "the Holy Ghost is like a Mother," I will gladly scratch #4b.
If "the Holy Ghost is like a mother," the teaching should be traceable to Jesus and the Apostles.
So an analogy is only eligible for use from the pulpit if it is found in the early Fathers? I guess most sermons are "heterodox" by that metric.
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As long as you are revising the list, I would cut out the complaint about the Holy Ghost sermon, which is beyond ridiculous. Several people have pointed out that it was comparing the love of the Trinity to the love within a family. A perfectly serviceable analogy, and anything but heterodox.
Two questions on the sermon:
1. Was it love of the Holy Ghost... or love of the Holy Trinity ?
2. Was it feminine or masculine love?
There is no such thing as "masculine or feminine" love. There is love, which can be manifested in different ways. Within the Trinity, the love of the Holy Ghost most closely resembles that of the mother within the family. Thence the analogy. It's really not that complicated.
Please quote the Early Fathers expressing a unanimous opinion that "the Holy Ghost is like a Mother."
If "the Holy Ghost is like a mother," the teaching should be traceable to Jesus and the Apostles.
Scroll down to "Shekinah": http://judaism.is/paganism.html
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Please quote the Early Fathers expressing a unanimous opinion that "the Holy Ghost is like a Mother."
If "the Holy Ghost is like a mother," the teaching should be traceable to Jesus and the Apostles.
Scroll down to "Shekinah": http://judaism.is/paganism.html
Your ability to endlessly repeat the same thing over and over again until you "win" an argument because everyone else gets tired of talking to a wall has been duly noted.
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...
As soon as you quote the Early Fathers expressing a unanimous opinion that "the Holy Ghost is like a Mother," I will gladly scratch #4b.
If "the Holy Ghost is like a mother," the teaching should be traceable to Jesus and the Apostles.
So an analogy is only eligible for use from the pulpit if it is found in the early Fathers? I guess most sermons are "heterodox" by that metric.
The doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been well-defined because it has been thoroughly abused by heretics.
I am not asking you to measure anything. Either "the Holy Ghost is like a mother" or not. I am asking you to back up your claim with Magisterium.
Either you can produce Ordinary Magisterium, what has always and everywhere been taught (e.g., a unanimity by the Early Fathers), or you can produce Extraordinary Magisterium (e.g., ex cathedra papal teaching or Council promulgated by a Pope) or you cannot.
You are the one who claimed that criticism of "the Holy Ghost is like a mother" was, and I quote, "beyond ridiculous." Voicing such a strong opinion, certainly you can offer several Magisterial docuмents to support your strong opinion... or can you?
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"Symbolically, in this marriage and family union of Joseph with Mary there was an image of the sacred Trinity. For Joseph represented the eternal Father, the Blessed Virgin the Holy Spirit, both because she was the most holy, and because she had conceived by the Holy Spirit. Christ represented Himself, even the Son of God. Hence, as there is in the sacred Trinity essentially one God in three Persons, so here was there one marriage and one perfect family, consisting of three persons, namely, Joseph, Mary, and Christ... This family was then, as it were, a heaven upon earth..." (Cornelius A Lapide, S.J., The Holy Gospel according to Saint Matthew, 1:18 [trans. Thomas W. Mossman; Loreto Publications, 2008, p. 30)
Here, have a late 16th century Jesuit, found with a 30 second search. Your eagerness to assume the worst is honestly despicable.
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"Symbolically, in this marriage and family union of Joseph with Mary there was an image of the sacred Trinity. For Joseph represented the eternal Father, the Blessed Virgin the Holy Spirit, both because she was the most holy, and because she had conceived by the Holy Spirit. Christ represented Himself, even the Son of God. Hence, as there is in the sacred Trinity essentially one God in three Persons, so here was there one marriage and one perfect family, consisting of three persons, namely, Joseph, Mary, and Christ... This family was then, as it were, a heaven upon earth..." (Cornelius A Lapide, S.J., The Holy Gospel according to Saint Matthew, 1:18 [trans. Thomas W. Mossman; Loreto Publications, 2008, p. 30)
Here, have a late 16th century Jesuit, found with a 30 second search. Your eagerness to assume the worst is honestly despicable.
M-a-g-s-t-e-r-i-u-m.
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So now we consider the early Jesuits heretics too? huh.
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So now we consider the early Jesuits heretics too? huh.
I have Volume 1 open in front of me. I do not even see an imprimatur. I consider him generally edifying, but he, like Origen, has no charism of infallibility and has not been canonized.
Fume and bluster all you want; either you can produce Magisterial support or not.
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Since when does something have to be infallible to be in line with the teachings of the Church? You get more and more ridiculous in your quest to find fault with the sermon. The priest made an analogy about the family in relation to the Trinity, one that I have clearly shown is not some modernist heresy. If you insist on maintaining your hard line, I leave you to wallow in your stubborn ignorance.
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At the risk of incurring your wrath for repeating myself, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been so tortured by heretics that it is arguably the most carefully defined de fide doctrine.
Either you have Magisterium or you don't.
Put Magisterium on the table and I will submit.
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Again, this has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity. It's an analogy on the family. I don't see why that distinction is so hard to comprehend.
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Again, this has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity. It's an analogy on the family. I don't see why that distinction is so hard to comprehend.
It is absurd for you to take a statement that speaks to the nature of one of the Persons of the Holy Trinity and say it "has nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity." Any discussion of the nature of any of the Persons is integral to the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
If it is a legitimate analogy consistent with the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, it should be easy to find "the Holy Ghost is like a mother" in the Magisterium, the Fathers, the Councils. I don't see why that is so hard to comprehend.
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"Symbolically, in this marriage and family union of Joseph with Mary there was an image of the sacred Trinity. For Joseph represented the eternal Father, the Blessed Virgin the Holy Spirit, both because she was the most holy, and because she had conceived by the Holy Spirit. Christ represented Himself, even the Son of God. Hence, as there is in the sacred Trinity essentially one God in three Persons, so here was there one marriage and one perfect family, consisting of three persons, namely, Joseph, Mary, and Christ... This family was then, as it were, a heaven upon earth..." (Cornelius A Lapide, S.J., The Holy Gospel according to Saint Matthew, 1:18 [trans. Thomas W. Mossman; Loreto Publications, 2008, p. 30)
Here, have a late 16th century Jesuit, found with a 30 second search. Your eagerness to assume the worst is honestly despicable.
You are likening two very different analogies. To say that in the context of the holy family, Mary is analogous to the Holy Spirit, is not the same thing as saying the Holy Spirit is like (any) mother. It’s a reversing and twisting of Lapide’s analogy.
Lapide’s quote continues,
“This family was then, as it were, a heaven upon earth – a family, not so much of three human persons as of three embodied angels – yea, symbolically, as it were of three divine Persons.”
Lapide’s explanation can’t be used to support a characterization of the Holy Ghost as being in any way analogous to the mother of a human family.
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You are likening two very different analogies. To say that in the context of the holy family, Mary is analogous to the Holy Spirit, is not the same thing as saying the Holy Spirit is like (any) mother. It’s a reversing and twisting of Lapide’s analogy.
Lapide’s quote continues,
“This family was then, as it were, a heaven upon earth – a family, not so much of three human persons as of three embodied angels – yea, symbolically, as it were of three divine Persons.”
Lapide’s explanation can’t be used to support a characterization of the Holy Ghost as being in any way analogous to the mother of a human family.
What you are missing is that the sermon actually used Lapide's analogy. It was the posters here who twisted the priests words.
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You are likening two very different analogies. To say that in the context of the holy family, Mary is analogous to the Holy Spirit, is not the same thing as saying the Holy Spirit is like (any) mother. It’s a reversing and twisting of Lapide’s analogy.
Lapide’s quote continues,
“This family was then, as it were, a heaven upon earth – a family, not so much of three human persons as of three embodied angels – yea, symbolically, as it were of three divine Persons.”
Lapide’s explanation can’t be used to support a characterization of the Holy Ghost as being in any way analogous to the mother of a human family.
What you are missing is that the sermon actually used Lapide's analogy. It was the posters here who twisted the priests words.
I've just made the case that Lapide's analogy has nothing to do with the statement that the Holy Ghost is like a mother. The priest would have had to say something completely different from the very words you have been defending - as is - over many posts.
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I did not choose Origen as a random comparison with a Lapide.
Origenism, a heresy, subordinated the Holy Ghost. De fide the Holy Ghost is not subordinate in the "family" of the Holy Trinity.
In a properly ordered Catholic family, the mother/wife is subordinate to the father/husband.
In analogizing Our Blessed Mother and the Holy Ghost, a Lapide (and Fr. Chavarria on Father's Day) compared the Holy Ghost to a subordinated and feminized position.
"The Holy Ghost is like a mother" is a doctrinally flawed analogy of subordination and feminization.
That is why I used Origen to make the point—Origen made many edifying contributions, but his teaching was imperfect and he was never canonized. A Lapide, too, made many edifying contributions (that is why he is in my library), but a Lapide was never canonized. Why not? Subordination of the Holy Ghost?
So, do you have Magisterium or not? I am not holding my breath.
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"...because she was the most holy..."
Really? In a comparison of two humans with Jesus Christ, Mary is "most holy," more holy than God?
Do you really want to run with this "analogy"?
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Did he run away...? :thinking:
But his efforts to defend a motherly Holy Ghost were fascinating!
It was almost as if we were arguing with Scott Hahn over his heretical "Lamb's Supper" book ?
So, what is at issue? Hahn calls the Holy Spirit "mother," "motherly," "maternal," "feminine," "womanhood," and "bridal," in both the hardback and paperback versions. Why is this so important?
Mary was female, and if the Holy Spirit is female or feminine, then Jesus had two mommies, and presto, "gαy" is good. Hahn goes so far as to say the Holy Spirit is "bridal," which validates "gαy marriage."
After 7 years of "Fellayism" there are increasing signs that the SSPX faithful are modernly indoctrinated and confused.
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Hahn is a Protestant cashing in on the Novus ordo.
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The Holy Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Ghost. 3 in one.
Nothing motherly about it.
I know from experience that the novus ordo uses the Holy Spirit as excuse to justify sins of Catholic Churches and schools closings and other sins.
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The novus ordo sodomites priests are boldly coming out publicly with laity condoning it as everyone welcomed to the table. They are denying magisterium and even the bible as the word of God. They are now grooming children with new sex Ed program.
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Just remember it is the "error" that Our Lady spoke of, Bolshevic Atheistic Communism take over.
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A lot of people showing up with sidebar distractions after we brought up a few real problems like people pulling their kids out of school and parishioners who have dictatorial decision-making power.
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In today's sermon,
(1) Fr. Stafki said there will eventually be stained glass windows and marble statues to match the marble altars. No mention of a time frame. No mention of what happened to the donations already paid and earmarked for stained glass windows.
I think it would go a long way to repair trust if there was an announcement from the pulpit:
"We know that many of you donated money for stained glass windows. We decided to spend the money on ___fill in the blank___. We are sorry that we didn't ask your permission. That was wrong of us, but we promise to make it right as soon as possible."
(2) Fr. Stafki claimed "5 hours of confessions on Sunday." If that were true, there is an additional 125 minutes scheduled Monday-Saturday, so 425 minutes total per week for about 600 families provides almost 43 seconds per week per family of scheduled confession time—admittedly better than 17 seconds. Should we hope for confessions on Saturday afternoon (very traditional) and after work on another weekday?
In today's bulletin,
August mortgage $11,522
August collection $10,265
Debt $2,537,350
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August mortgage $11,522
August collection $10,265
Debt $2,537,350
Am I the only one that would prefer a much more HUMBLE church, if it meant not being in debt, and the parishioners collectively not paying any interest to the Bankers?
St. Dominic's Chapel, for example, is totally debt-free. Any money we receive can be spent on improvements, or saved towards a larger building someday. But of the money we receive, 100% goes to benefit the parishioners and 0% goes to the Jєωιѕн bankers.
I'd be very uncomfortable attending that chapel -- I'd feel like I was 2.5 million in debt. That seems a bit overwhelming to me.
Think of it this way -- aren't we all used to "our share" of the National Debt? We each owe $50,000 or something like that? That's bad enough out here in the world. Why burden ourselves with an additional "$5,000" per man/woman/child on top of it, based on where we go to church? I mean, at least where we go to church is voluntary.
But here's the real problem: they have a $11,500 mortgage payment (how much of that is INTEREST?).
We all assume the main issue is the SSPX/Resistance. Maybe it is -- for now. But how can we guarantee that the economic system will always be "Ok" or "good" for the next 30 years? What about the inevitable economic crash/collapse/reset? It's bound to happen eventually, it's a question of mathematics.
When it DOES happen, a lot of people are going to be broke and out of work. How are they going to get their $11,500 mortgage payment then? Will they lose their chapel to foreclosure?
Like I said -- I'll take "free & clear" any day over a fancy chapel bought with money borrowed from Shylock. I like my pound of flesh right where it is.
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In today's sermon,
(1) Fr. Stafki said there will eventually be stained glass windows and marble statues to match the marble altars. No mention of a time frame. No mention of what happened to the donations already paid and earmarked for stained glass windows.
I think it would go a long way to repair trust if there was an announcement from the pulpit:
"We know that many of you donated money for stained glass windows. We decided to spend the money on ___fill in the blank___. We are sorry that we didn't ask your permission. That was wrong of us, but we promise to make it right as soon as possible."
(2) Fr. Stafki claimed "5 hours of confessions on Sunday." If that were true, there is an additional 125 minutes scheduled Monday-Saturday, so 425 minutes total per week for about 600 families provides almost 43 seconds per week per family of scheduled confession time—admittedly better than 17 seconds. Should we hope for confessions on Saturday afternoon (very traditional) and after work on another weekday?
In today's bulletin,
August mortgage $11,522
August collection $10,265
Debt $2,537,350
One would think that the lack of a time frame is due to the fact that the addition of said items is contingent upon having the funds to get these. I felt like this was rather obvious.
One would also think that it is obvious that the funds earmarked for the stain glass likely went towards the actual completion of the church itself, due to last minute and costly changes in requirements by the city. And, they made the decision to complete the church rather than hold on to money for stain glass windows that would never be realized. Given the disdain with which you speak of Fr. Stafki and the numerous "awful" things that he has done, I highly doubt that he'll ever gain your approval (not that he is looking to).
You are so hung up on statistics that LOOK bad but don't reveal anything. For example, you failed to mention the fact that Saturday confessions result in 1 or 2 people. If there was SUCH a demand (as your statistics would suggest) then it would seem likely that people would pursue the other times that are available for confession. You also don't factor in the confessions that are set aside for the students at the school. But, go ahead and repeat you statistics (as I'm sure you will). After all. If you, as an individual are not satisfied, we all know that no one is and that the priests are too lazy, right?
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August mortgage $11,522
August collection $10,265
Debt $2,537,350
Am I the only one that would prefer a much more HUMBLE church, if it meant not being in debt, and the parishioners collectively not paying any interest to the Bankers?
But here's the real problem: they have a $11,500 mortgage payment (how much of that is INTEREST?).
The majority of people at the parish were advised on the price of the church and voiced their support. And, this was originally pitched when the economy was not in a great spot. No one was blindsided by this.
The concept of being debt free is great and slightly more difficult in practice. Any new building that is meant to house that many people was going to cost a LOT of money. The SSPX is not linked to the diocese and their cash reserves. They decided to push ahead with construction because the quote that they had was very fair and was likely to increase significantly if they waited any longer.
The mortgage payment is paid to the SSPX and not a bank. As such, we are not paying interest on it.
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In today's sermon,
(1) Fr. Stafki said there will eventually be stained glass windows and marble statues to match the marble altars. No mention of a time frame. No mention of what happened to the donations already paid and earmarked for stained glass windows.
I think it would go a long way to repair trust if there was an announcement from the pulpit:
"We know that many of you donated money for stained glass windows. We decided to spend the money on ___fill in the blank___. We are sorry that we didn't ask your permission. That was wrong of us, but we promise to make it right as soon as possible."
(2) Fr. Stafki claimed "5 hours of confessions on Sunday." If that were true, there is an additional 125 minutes scheduled Monday-Saturday, so 425 minutes total per week for about 600 families provides almost 43 seconds per week per family of scheduled confession time—admittedly better than 17 seconds. Should we hope for confessions on Saturday afternoon (very traditional) and after work on another weekday?
In today's bulletin,
August mortgage $11,522
August collection $10,265
Debt $2,537,350
One would think that the lack of a time frame is due to the fact that the addition of said items is contingent upon having the funds to get these. I felt like this was rather obvious.
One would also think that it is obvious that the funds earmarked for the stain glass likely went towards the actual completion of the church itself, due to last minute and costly changes in requirements by the city. And, they made the decision to complete the church rather than hold on to money for stain glass windows that would never be realized. Given the disdain with which you speak of Fr. Stafki and the numerous "awful" things that he has done, I highly doubt that he'll ever gain your approval (not that he is looking to).
You are so hung up on statistics that LOOK bad but don't reveal anything. For example, you failed to mention the fact that Saturday confessions result in 1 or 2 people. If there was SUCH a demand (as your statistics would suggest) then it would seem likely that people would pursue the other times that are available for confession. You also don't factor in the confessions that are set aside for the students at the school. But, go ahead and repeat you statistics (as I'm sure you will). After all. If you, as an individual are not satisfied, we all know that no one is and that the priests are too lazy, right?
My profound apologies!
I apologize for having acknowledged the improvement and hoping for more.
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I know longer know what would make some of you people happy. It seems like Father Stafki is working hard to make things better in this parish and all I seem to hear from some of you is negative news.
1) Confessions: Let us think about this. First of all the father said that only 2 people showed up for Saturday Confessions. Second, today I came inside the church and there was no one in line for Confessions. Later I noticed that there were two people! I mean really; not every man woman or child goes to Confessions weekly. So I do not know what you are so upset about.
2) Father tried again to explain about the windows, statues, and other aspects of the church construction. Yes the people gave the money. Yes we know and we are sorry that the windows were not put in, and the statues were not purchased. Yet is well known that we ran out of money and a hard choice had to be made. Either open the church as it and raise more money, or put the windows in and the statues which I sure would be beautiful, and have a church that would sit empty because we could not occupy it.
3) Yes I question what went on with one of the owners of the contracting company. I thought it would make things uneasy. Yet I wonder how many of you knew that this same extended family gave over $1million dollars towards the construction of this church. This same extended family gave over $100,000 towards the remodeling of the performing out center. This same extended family is down at the church all of the time, and I mean all of the time volunteering to clean the church, the school, the church grounds and giving thousand of dollars in donations toward support towards this parish.
4) You want to help? Pick up some of the raffle tickets that some parish members are trying to sell to pay off the building debt. This is the first of many projects that will begin to trim this debt down. Just think all of these were brought forward by parish members.
5) Why did we need this church? We need it because in spite of all of the negative stuff you read about a dying parish, we now have 155 students enrolled in the Sunday Catholic classes! It does not sound like it is dying to me! Three marriages this year already? This is the most that I have ever seen in one year, and it is only September. Join us do not fight us. Together we can make this church a model for all traditional parishes.
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I know longer know what would make some of you people happy. It seems like Father Stafki is working hard to make things better in this parish and all I seem to hear from some of you is negative news.
1) Confessions: Let us think about this. First of all the father said that only 2 people showed up for Saturday Confessions. Second, today I came inside the church and there was no one in line for Confessions. Later I noticed that there were two people! I mean really; not every man woman or child goes to Confessions weekly. So I do not know what you are so upset about.
2) Father tried again to explain about the windows, statues, and other aspects of the church construction. Yes the people gave the money. Yes we know and we are sorry that the windows were not put in, and the statues were not purchased. Yet is well known that we ran out of money and a hard choice had to be made. Either open the church as it and raise more money, or put the windows in and the statues which I sure would be beautiful, and have a church that would sit empty because we could not occupy it.
3) Yes I question what went on with one of the owners of the contracting company. I thought it would make things uneasy. Yet I wonder how many of you knew that this same extended family gave over $1million dollars towards the construction of this church. This same extended family gave over $100,000 towards the remodeling of the performing out center. This same extended family is down at the church all of the time, and I mean all of the time volunteering to clean the church, the school, the church grounds and giving thousand of dollars in donations toward support towards this parish.
4) You want to help? Pick up some of the raffle tickets that some parish members are trying to sell to pay off the building debt. This is the first of many projects that will begin to trim this debt down. Just think all of these were brought forward by parish members.
5) Why did we need this church? We need it because in spite of all of the negative stuff you read about a dying parish, we now have 155 students enrolled in the Sunday Catholic classes! It does not sound like it is dying to me! Three marriages this year already? This is the most that I have ever seen in one year, and it is only September. Join us do not fight us. Together we can make this church a model for all traditional parishes.
AMEN TO ALL OF THIS
There is soo much misinformation on this thread.
Stained glass windows DO NOT fall from the sky. They take months and years to design and complete.
I also heard last week that the school's budget for the upcoming year is significantly higher than last years and they decided not to increase tuition. SOme of those expenses the parish will likely carry. If you wanted a church with pretty marble statues with nice tall stained glass windows then OLOS isn't for you. This is a church built on faith and tradition not on marble statues and pretty windows.
And, yes, not everyone has the time to go to weekly confession so the previous posters math is very off.
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I know longer know what would make some of you people happy. It seems like Father Stafki is working hard to make things better in this parish and all I seem to hear from some of you is negative news.
1) Confessions: Let us think about this. First of all the father said that only 2 people showed up for Saturday Confessions. Second, today I came inside the church and there was no one in line for Confessions. Later I noticed that there were two people! I mean really; not every man woman or child goes to Confessions weekly. So I do not know what you are so upset about.
2) Father tried again to explain about the windows, statues, and other aspects of the church construction. Yes the people gave the money. Yes we know and we are sorry that the windows were not put in, and the statues were not purchased. Yet is well known that we ran out of money and a hard choice had to be made. Either open the church as it and raise more money, or put the windows in and the statues which I sure would be beautiful, and have a church that would sit empty because we could not occupy it.
3) Yes I question what went on with one of the owners of the contracting company. I thought it would make things uneasy. Yet I wonder how many of you knew that this same extended family gave over $1million dollars towards the construction of this church. This same extended family gave over $100,000 towards the remodeling of the performing out center. This same extended family is down at the church all of the time, and I mean all of the time volunteering to clean the church, the school, the church grounds and giving thousand of dollars in donations toward support towards this parish.
4) You want to help? Pick up some of the raffle tickets that some parish members are trying to sell to pay off the building debt. This is the first of many projects that will begin to trim this debt down. Just think all of these were brought forward by parish members.
5) Why did we need this church? We need it because in spite of all of the negative stuff you read about a dying parish, we now have 155 students enrolled in the Sunday Catholic classes! It does not sound like it is dying to me! Three marriages this year already? This is the most that I have ever seen in one year, and it is only September. Join us do not fight us. Together we can make this church a model for all traditional parishes.
Good that Father Stafki reads Cathinfo, so he can better understand and communicate with his parish faithful. :rolleyes:
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For example, you failed to mention the fact that Saturday confessions result in 1 or 2 people. If there was SUCH a demand (as your statistics would suggest) then it would seem likely that people would pursue the other times that are available for confession.
I am speaking up because I cannot STAND to hear one more rosy-glasses wearing fool come on this thread and LIE about how "easy" it is to go to confession at OLOS and how there really is no 'problem.'
This is absolutely NOT TRUE.
I have been unable to get in to a confessional for MONTHS at a time at OLOS. That should not be happening.
The truth is we do not have enough confession time for the number of people in the parish.
The designated 25-30 minutes of confession prior to each Mass is not nearly enough for a parish of this size.
There were times last year when we would occasionally have a priest in the box during the Mass up to Holy Communion. On those days, you may have a better chance. But, I cannot tell you how many times I stood in that line during Mass that had AT LEAST 10+ people in front of me, only to have the priest leave the box just before it was my turn. So, I waited in line for 30 minutes for nothing.
We need to have Saturday afternoon Confessions. EVERY Catholic parish on earth has a 3, 4, or 5 p.m. confession for an hour. If you get there 5 minutes after the start time, there will be a line of at LEAST a half-dozen people. It would not be too much to ask to have the priests provide this service on Saturday. It would help alleviate the incredibly long lines on Sunday during the very-short Sunday time slots.
SECOND - the priests need to REMIND the Faithful what Confession is supposed to be. People are taking LONGER in the confessional at OLOS than I have ever seen in ANY parish. The priests are NOT to be used as your psychotherapist or for your whine-session. The Faithful need to be reminded to:
Be BRIEF.
Be SORRY.
And be GONE!
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5) Why did we need this church? We need it because in spite of all of the negative stuff you read about a dying parish, we now have 155 students enrolled in the Sunday Catholic classes! It does not sound like it is dying to me! Three marriages this year already? This is the most that I have ever seen in one year, and it is only September. Join us do not fight us. Together we can make this church a model for all traditional parishes.
Again, another rosy-glasses wearing fool who is ignoring reality.
The parish school had a mass exodus, and many long-time parishioners have been lost this year. This is the truth. There were new families who moved to Phoenix for this Church, only to turn around and move right back out a year or two later because they were horrified by the place.
The donations are down drastically. So much so that they cannot even pay the 'mortgage.'
The faithful have been subjected to a lot of terrible sermons since the new Church opened where they are being criticized for a multitude of things large and small. Even the very first sermon after the Consecration last fall where Fr. Riccomini chastised everyone for what "slobs" we all are. It all went downhill from there.
This is why it is not growing.
There is no more charity there. Charity has grown cold. People will not stay long, nor continue to financially support a place that keeps telling them how bad they all are.
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If they are really reading here, another OLOS issue that needs to be addressed is the priests' overly long sermons.
Dr. David Allen White has long joked that the SSPX priests are "windbags" and their reputation is well-deserved and entirely earned.
The sole reason that our Mass time was recently changed by making it a half-hour earlier was because the priests were talking SO LONG during sermons that it was running into the children's catechism classes start time.
And yet, a few Sundays ago, a priest blathered on SO LONG that the kids' catechism was delayed again - even though Mass now starts a half-hour earlier!
If a priest cannot reliably and consistently give only a 15-20 minute sermon, he needs to examine why. It becomes entirely self-indulgent, it takes away from the Mass itself, and makes it all about the priest. If he really wants to GIVE A CONFERENCE then do it in the parish hall at a designated time. But, please stop torturing the faithful with your inability to restrain the length of your pontifications.
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I remember when Fr. Leblanc of Our Lady of the Sun, was open for confession anytime. He told me of men stopping in at 6am for confession. There should also be by appointment. Confession is so important, I am so sorry to hear what is happening to this parish.
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mw:
The truth is we do not have enough confession time for the number of people in the parish.
Why would many of you want to got to OLOS priests for confession anyway? If I were in Phoenix, 1) I wouldn't even be going to OLOS, and 2) Even if I were still in attendance there, I'd be looking for priests elsewhere to make a confession.
Quite frankly, these priests sound like losers.
mw:
If a priest cannot reliably and consistently give only a 15-20 minute sermon, he needs to examine why. It becomes entirely self-indulgent, it takes away from the Mass itself, and makes it all about the priest. If he really wants to GIVE A CONFERENCE then do it in the parish hall at a designated time. But, please stop torturing the faithful with your inability to restrain the length of your pontifications
.
They may simply be following the lead of their SG, who, IMHO, is the biggest windbag of them all.
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They may simply be following the lead of their SG, who, IMHO, is the biggest windbag of them all.
Believe me, it is not a new phenomenon. They have been long-winded this way for years and years.
I had the intense displeasure of having to suffer under Fr. Trinh for awhile (who left the SSPX and became an independent sede priest) who gave 45 minute sermons on average, and who had such a heavy Vietnamese accent that you could not understand a word he said.
I hear he is now in a Vietnamese chapel, which is definitely the right place for him to be..LOL.
The SSPX must not address this in their seminary when they form priests, or ever address this as a matter of policy. It is in stark contrast to the FSSP's priests, who always give a consistent 15-20 minute sermon, and I have listened to at least ten different priests of theirs. It must be part of their training or policy - very smart.
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For example, you failed to mention the fact that Saturday confessions result in 1 or 2 people. If there was SUCH a demand (as your statistics would suggest) then it would seem likely that people would pursue the other times that are available for confession.
I am speaking up because I cannot STAND to hear one more rosy-glasses wearing fool come on this thread and LIE about how "easy" it is to go to confession at OLOS and how there really is no 'problem.'
This is absolutely NOT TRUE.
I have been unable to get in to a confessional for MONTHS at a time at OLOS. That should not be happening.
The truth is we do not have enough confession time for the number of people in the parish.
The designated 25-30 minutes of confession prior to each Mass is not nearly enough for a parish of this size.
There were times last year when we would occasionally have a priest in the box during the Mass up to Holy Communion. On those days, you may have a better chance. But, I cannot tell you how many times I stood in that line during Mass that had AT LEAST 10+ people in front of me, only to have the priest leave the box just before it was my turn. So, I waited in line for 30 minutes for nothing.
We need to have Saturday afternoon Confessions. EVERY Catholic parish on earth has a 3, 4, or 5 p.m. confession for an hour. If you get there 5 minutes after the start time, there will be a line of at LEAST a half-dozen people. It would not be too much to ask to have the priests provide this service on Saturday. It would help alleviate the incredibly long lines on Sunday during the very-short Sunday time slots.
SECOND - the priests need to REMIND the Faithful what Confession is supposed to be. People are taking LONGER in the confessional at OLOS than I have ever seen in ANY parish. The priests are NOT to be used as your psychotherapist or for your whine-session. The Faithful need to be reminded to:
Be BRIEF.
Be SORRY.
And be GONE!
Excuse me, but my good friend schedules private confessions and has yet to be turned down. Maybe you should think outside the "box".... haha! get it?
I humor myself so.... :roll-laugh1:
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The majority of people at the parish were advised on the price of the church and voiced their support. And, this was originally pitched when the economy was not in a great spot. No one was blindsided by this.
THAT IS A LIE !
If you want to debate opinions and rumors or continue to pontificate the company line all the while pretending you are an innocent outsider that is one thing but we will not stand quite while you insert a bold-faced lie half way through some "explain-it-all-away " piece your are writing for the OLOS admin.
You know all to well every single change that brought about exorbanite cost increases was made after ...we repeat AFTER we pledged our money but for the befit of others not on the inside as you are let us again explain just a small part of it all .THE WINDOWS
They took money collected for a specific item and used for something else ...Well why not.
They promised us a very different church ,told all of us what we wanted to hear we were only to eager to make pledges then after the appropriate wait and removing of the priest who made said promises BAM! they tell us of their costly changes at the same time letting us know that BTW not honoring your pledges is a sin ......so why shouldn't they take the stain glass window fund and use it for what ever they see fit ?
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I have been following this thread. Of all the complaints, I believe the lack of confession time is a problem. If there is not enough confession time, because of the way fallen human nature works, there willl be many many sacriligious communions because people will not be able to go to confession and will think, "my soul is clean enough."
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WAA-WAA-WAA. This thread is non-stop whining by malcontents who don't appreciate what they have now. Whining about debt, whining about lengthy sermons, whining about not having enough statues, whining about not having stained glass windows, whining about not having enough Confession times, and worst of all... whining about and slandering Priests!!! Hey, here's an idea for Parish improvement... you should just leave the Parish. Calling people "fools" who post positive notes and berating anyone who has an outlook of hope for the future is just plain wrong.
Again, if you're so unhappy at our Parish... just leave. Otherwise, next time you're tempted to jump on here and commit calumny... pick up your Rosary and pray it instead! Heck, then maybe you won't need as many available Confession times.
Thank you for so aptly proving my point...
Charity has grown cold.
There is no means to address legitimate concerns at OLOS.
This is why everyone at OLOS is so afraid. Afraid to speak up.
Instead, all the charity you get from fools like this is, "Why don't you just leave??"
Newsflash for you, fool: we paid for it too. We'd like to be able to stay in the parish we helped build and we're not going to be silenced by the likes of you when the whole thing is going off track. But, eventually your most steadfast participants will keep leaving - and taking their money with them. Hope you get enough Novus Ordo folks to replenish all the good-hearted Catholics you all DRIVE away with your "charity."
And to think you had to join and make an account just to tell us all to leave.
:jester:
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AMEN TO ALL OF THIS
There is soo much misinformation on this thread.
Stained glass windows DO NOT fall from the sky. They take months and years to design and complete.
I also heard last week that the school's budget for the upcoming year is significantly higher than last years and they decided not to increase tuition. SOme of those expenses the parish will likely carry. If you wanted a church with pretty marble statues with nice tall stained glass windows then OLOS isn't for you. This is a church built on faith and tradition not on marble statues and pretty windows.
And, yes, not everyone has the time to go to weekly confession so the previous posters math is very off.
funny you should say that We could not agree more Fact is we dont want a church with pretty marble statues WE WANT WHAT WE WERE PROMISED FROM THE PULPIT and what we pledged for
As for the windows ...your right again they dont fall from the sky. Especially when the money for said windows has been misappropriated
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WAA-WAA-WAA. This thread is non-stop whining by malcontents who don't appreciate what they have now. Whining about debt, whining about lengthy sermons, whining about not having enough statues, whining about not having stained glass windows, whining about not having enough Confession times, and worst of all... whining about and slandering Priests!!! Hey, here's an idea for Parish improvement... you should just leave the Parish. Calling people "fools" who post positive notes and berating anyone who has an outlook of hope for the future is just plain wrong.
Again, if you're so unhappy at our Parish... just leave. Otherwise, next time you're tempted to jump on here and commit calumny... pick up your Rosary and pray it instead! Heck, then maybe you won't need as many available Confession times.
Thank you for so aptly proving my point...
Charity has grown cold.
There is no means to address legitimate concerns at OLOS.
This is why everyone at OLOS is so afraid. Afraid to speak up.
Instead, all the charity you get from fools like this is, "Why don't you just leave??"
Newsflash for you, fool: we paid for it too. We'd like to be able to stay in the parish we helped build and we're not going to be silenced by the likes of you when the whole thing is going off track. But, eventually your most steadfast participants will keep leaving - and taking their money with them. Hope you get enough Novus Ordo folks to replenish all the good-hearted Catholics you all DRIVE away with your "charity."
And to think you had to join and make an account just to tell us all to leave.
:jester:
Exactly right .That is what they want every dissenting parishioner to just leave ..If you are not going to pay stay away
Catholic4life has nothing new ,accuses us of that which he is guilty "WA, WA, WA," as in "leave,leave ,leave" same old song and dance
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WAA-WAA-WAA.
Again, if you're so unhappy at our Parish... just leave.
It just ocurred to me that your nasty response to your fellow parishioners in the pews must be exactly the sort of thing the first Traditional Catholics heard in the late 60's when they would not go along with the changes of VII:
"Why don't you just leave..."
So, congratulations - you now have the both the heart and spirit of the modernist Catholics you seek so earnestly to rejoin. Your attitude should make the transition perfectly seamless.
And those modernists stole the real estate and Churches that the Faithful built with their pennies and blood sweat and tears just like the SSPX is doing to the present era of Traditionalists.
Well done!
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2) Father tried again to explain about the windows, statues, and other aspects of the church construction. Yes the people gave the money. Yes we know and we are sorry that the windows were not put in, and the statues were not purchased. Yet is well known that we ran out of money and a hard choice had to be made. Either open the church as it and raise more money, or put the windows in and the statues which I sure would be beautiful, and have a church that would sit empty because we could not occupy it.
.
Father didnt explain anything ...Oh he said he would LIKE windows and statues ...Well golly gee ! so would we. He didn't EXPLAIN why we dont have windows and statues or when we will or what happened to the misappropriated money
and if all possible explian how installing paid for windows and bringing up from the basement promised statues would prevent us from occupying the church
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WAA-WAA-WAA.
Again, if you're so unhappy at our Parish... just leave.
It just ocurred to me that your nasty response to your fellow parishioners in the pews must be exactly the sort of thing the first Traditional Catholics heard in the late 60's when they would not go along with the changes of VII:
"Why don't you just leave..."
So, congratulations - you now have the both the heart and spirit of the modernist Catholics you seek so earnestly to rejoin. Your attitude should make the transition perfectly seamless.
And those modernists stole the real estate and Churches that the Faithful built with their pennies and blood sweat and tears just like the SSPX is doing to the present era of Traditionalists.
Well done!
We could not have put it any better
your post should be reposted on every page of this thread as a reminder. It describes their actions and motives perfectly
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Very interesting quotes comparison...
"Newsflash for you, fool", "fools in rose colored glasses", "you fools"
- mw2016
"...and whosoever shall say, thou Fool, shall be in danger of Hell fire."
- Our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:22)
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Very interesting quotes comparison...
"Newsflash for you, fool", "fools in rose colored glasses", "you fools"
- mw2016
"...and whosoever shall say, thou Fool, shall be in danger of Hell fire."
- Our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:22)
Once again, thanks for proving your Novus Ordo-ready modernist mindset. The Traditionalists who would not go along with the VII changes have been hearing for years how they were outside the Church and are going to hell. And now you engage in same.
Do you fear this? Is this why you are so anxious for Bp. Fellay to hand it all back over to Bergoglio?
Perhaps that is the reason you are so incpable of hearing any of the legitimate issues that need to be addressed there - you don't want anything risking your imminent deal with Rome.
You remind me a bit of Elmer Fudd, "Be vewy vewy quiet, everyone! We don't want to disturb Bp. Fellay!" Wouldn't want to distract him with your dysfunctional parish.
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Ok mw2016, so we all know that you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being "Novus Ordo"
you are actually just a sedevacantist.
I don't like name-calling, so i'll call you a name...ha ha.
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Its doubtful you care since its become increasingly obvious that you don't know the Faith and that you are actually just a sedevacantist.
Certainly not. Sedevacantism is a dead-end nonsense solution to the problems in the Church. Bergoglio is most certainly our Pope, however unfortunate that may be. As the question in the other thread asks, "Why now?" for a deal with Rome. Why would Bp. Fellay desire to do something that makes no sense given the circuмstances. Things in Rome have never been worse, the Pope has never been more off-track, but NOW seems like a good time? Right.
The faithful in the parish are bringing to the thread legitimate problems that have only accelerated since the new Church opened last fall and these problems have not been answered by the priests (or whoever) is in charge. You can keep shooting the messenger by spewing your hate in my or Mark79's or PhxGroup's direction, and keep calling into question our knowledge of the Faith or our faithfulness itself, but that will certainly not change the problems going on at OLOS.
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Your slanderous comments and dim-witted posts don't intimidate anyone.
The big problem here is the that you repeatedly bash Priests and Bishops by name
No one on this thread is slandering or bashing priests, simply because we disagree with some of the things that are happening.
I know it's a long thread, but here are some previous posts which illustrate my point:
I am sure Fr. Stafki really strives to do the right thing. I have no other impression in that regard.
Fr. Stafki's case is classic.
Just because a priest is good, holy and highly beloved by God doesn't mean we should imitate that priest.
Worthy of imitation and full of Sanctifying Grace/charity are NOT the same thing.
Fr. Stafki believes that the will of God is expressed in the will of HIS superiors, and that it trumps even the cause of truth. He is wrong about this, but since he doesn't know that he is wrong, he is not guilty.
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Ok mw2016, so we all know that you accuse everyone who disagrees with you of being "Novus Ordo" in an attempt to slap them down and make you feel high and mighty. Its really gotten pretty stale. Your slanderous comments and dim-witted posts don't intimidate anyone.
The big problem here is the that you repeatedly bash Priests and Bishops by name although you are too cowardice to give your own real name. That's ok though because many of us do know your real name. In fact, some of the Priests you regularly berate on this thread now also know your real name. Its doubtful you care since its become increasingly obvious that you don't know the Faith and that you are actually just a sedevacantist.
As a reminder, although I'm sure you already know this, Our Lady of the Sun (Independent) and Queen of the Most Holy Rosary (CRMI) cater to folks like you, so maybe they'd welcome your negative attitude and constant backbiting.
and there it is the word you pull out to end all discussion of any subject
now of course MW2016 is required to begin defending herself
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Catholic4Life has been banned.
He could have easily opposed, disagreed with, and argued with most people in this thread without resorting to slander and ad-hominems.
To be clear: One can't truthfully say that "only those who attack the SSPX and/or the Phoenix chapel are welcome on CathInfo, or in this thread."
Just read over the thread -- there are plenty of "critics of the critics" here. But you have to behave yourself, and contain your frustration somewhat. Let's face it -- they have to contain their frustration as well! If they can behave, you can behave. That's how I see it.
But, hypothetically, if I were going to make an exception for someone "crossing the line" (turning a blind eye), it certainly wouldn't be for someone defending the neo-SSPX!
I might allow you on CathInfo as a dissenting voice, but you're GOING TO HAVE TO BEHAVE.
I just haven't seen the critics of the Phoenix chapel throwing around ad-hominems, charges of mortal sin, etc. nearly as often as the neo-SSPX side does.
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"Catholic4Life" only had like 8 posts...the account was obviously created to respond to this post.
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3) Yes I question what went on with one of the owners of the contracting company. I thought it would make things uneasy. Yet I wonder how many of you knew that this same extended family gave over $1million dollars towards the construction of this church. This same extended family gave over $100,000 towards the remodeling of the performing out center. This same extended family is down at the church all of the time, and I mean all of the time volunteering to clean the church, the school, the church grounds and giving thousand of dollars in donations toward support towards this parish.
We are glad you question the ethics of the contracting company owner and parish accountant being one and the same. It shows you know right from wrong and are not blinded by misguided loyalty
You are right they did give slightly over a million dollars towards the building of the church we wonder if it came out of the million"S" they made from being the contractor
we know one thing for sure the church had a contract for a fraction of the final cost before the changes and the new parishioner-contractor were put in place
you are also right about the thousands given for the school arts center and again they were the contractor as for the rest ,all the volunteering you mentioned With all due respect that is a extreme exaggeration but we will that go
Together we can make this church a model for all traditional parishes.
your right and that is what we are trying to do. To one day get the church we were promised , that we payed for. It is because we love OLOS that we fight on
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3) Yes I question what went on with one of the owners of the contracting company. I thought it would make things uneasy. Yet I wonder how many of you knew that this same extended family gave over $1million dollars towards the construction of this church. This same extended family gave over $100,000 towards the remodeling of the performing out center. This same extended family is down at the church all of the time, and I mean all of the time volunteering to clean the church, the school, the church grounds and giving thousand of dollars in donations toward support towards this parish.
We are glad you question the ethics of the contracting company owner and parish accountant being one and the same. It shows you know right from wrong and are not blinded by misguided loyalty
You are right they did give slightly over a million dollars towards the building of the church we wonder if it came out of the million"S" they made from being the contractor
we know one thing for sure the church had a contract for a fraction of the final cost before the changes and the new parishioner-contractor were put in place
you are also right about the thousands given for the school arts center and again they were the contractor as for the rest ,all the volunteering you mentioned With all due respect that is a extreme exaggeration but we will that go
Together we can make this church a model for all traditional parishes.
your right and that is what we are trying to do. To one day get the church we were promised , that we payed for. It is because we love OLOS that we fight on
Form what you've told us, it sounds like an audit, followed by a lawsuit are in order.
The SSPX is notoriuos for it's French/amateur efforts in managing American chapels and schools, but this case is far out of hand.
Fr. Wegner et al, have dug in there heels and you've basically already lost your chapel, so you've got nothing to lose by seeking a legal recourse.
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Those who are named as the directors on the legal docs for the chapel have a legal duty of fiscal responsibility and accountability, per typical state laws. If there is evidence of negligence or errors (not talking fraud), then an audit would be a fair way to get to the bottom of the truth. But there has to be proof. Giving construction contracts to parishoners isn't illegal. Sometimes it's the smart thing to do to save money.
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Greetings,
We have delayed in posting in the last few days as 2 of our members/friends were told by an Usher on Sunday 2 weeks past to stop asking questions about the raffle or leave and do not return
these ladies were understandably shaken . The Usher was quite angry and accused them of spreading rumors and dissension amongst the faithful
As everyone is aware the statue of Our Lady of Sorrows has again been removed and placed in the Sacristy. (It was previously in the home of a loyal parish member) It is our understanding that Fr.C was of the mind that leaving it out would promote complacency but that the parish did need frequent reminders of what we have lost until the debt is paid and the church is finished .
This information comes to us from a family member of a very important parish member. This family member has now decided to leave OLoS in large part due to the school
We have also learned from that same parent that a group of mothers, both current and former members of OLoS have started a home schooling group using traditional catholic curriculum. Presently they are holding school in the home of a church member with a very large den . From what we have heard it numbers well over 10 so far . Though all of this is slightly off topic in concerns to the church construction issue we thought some readers would find it interesting
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Raffles are a pet peeve of mine. I cannot see Christ encouraging people to try to get "something" for basically "nothing". Smacks of encouraging avarice to me.
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We have also learned from that same parent that a group of mothers, both current and former members of OLoS have started a home schooling group using traditional catholic curriculum. Presently they are holding school in the home of a church member with a very large den . From what we have heard it numbers well over 10 so far . Though all of this is slightly off topic in concerns to the church construction issue we thought some readers would find it interesting
:applause: Bravo!!!
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We have also learned from that same parent that a group of mothers, both current and former members of OLoS have started a home schooling group using traditional catholic curriculum. Presently they are holding school in the home of a church member with a very large den . From what we have heard it numbers well over 10 so far . Though all of this is slightly off topic in concerns to the church construction issue we thought some readers would find it interesting
Ten families or ten children?
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We have also learned from that same parent that a group of mothers, both current and former members of OLoS have started a home schooling group using traditional catholic curriculum. Presently they are holding school in the home of a church member with a very large den . From what we have heard it numbers well over 10 so far . Though all of this is slightly off topic in concerns to the church construction issue we thought some readers would find it interesting
Ten families or ten children?
Eighteen children left the school from six families.
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As everyone is aware the statue of Our Lady of Sorrows has again been removed and placed in the Sacristy.
…and replaced by a statue of Our Lady of Fatima for the month of October.
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We have also learned from that same parent that a group of mothers, both current and former members of OLoS have started a home schooling group using traditional catholic curriculum. Presently they are holding school in the home of a church member with a very large den . From what we have heard it numbers well over 10 so far . Though all of this is slightly off topic in concerns to the church construction issue we thought some readers would find it interesting
Ten families or ten children?
Eighteen children left the school from six families.
Wow! That's about 20% of enrollment isn't it? What's wrong with the school (besides the outrageous cost)?
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As everyone is aware the statue of Our Lady of Sorrows has again been removed and placed in the Sacristy.
…and replaced by a statue of Our Lady of Fatima for the month of October.
Interesting how that key point was left out. I don't go there, so I can't confirm or deny this. If this really is the case though, I'd really begin to think that this is beginning to become an attempt to TRY to find things to criticize. If the statue really was replaced by a statue of Our Lady of Fatima for the month of the Rosary, it would be entirely fitting. If that is the case . . . well . . . I don't need to know much more from this thread.
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As everyone is aware the statue of Our Lady of Sorrows has again been removed and placed in the Sacristy.
…and replaced by a statue of Our Lady of Fatima for the month of October.
Interesting how that key point was left out. I don't go there, so I can't confirm or deny this. If this really is the case though, I'd really begin to think that this is beginning to become an attempt to TRY to find things to criticize. If the statue really was replaced by a statue of Our Lady of Fatima for the month of the Rosary, it would be entirely fitting. If that is the case . . . well . . . I don't need to know much more from this thread.
It's been that way from the beginning. About time people started catching on.
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This topic lost relevancy at least 45 pages ago.
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Malelar: I am not sure what you feel the answer to raise money would be. The Raffle was organized by parish members. The prizes were donated by parish members. The tickets were donated by parish members. The displays were donated by parish members. The priest did not come to the parish members They came to the priest asking if they could do a raffle to pay down the parish debt. Yes we know that sadly we have this huge church debt. I for one am not happy about it. However it is done and the debt is a reality. So I am asking you, is there someway that you could come forward and offer to the parish a way to raise monies to pay off this debt? There are a lot of things that are being looked over right now as a way to raise money to pay off the debts, and your ideas I am sure, would be welcome for consideration.
I am also sorry that these two ladies were handled so rudely by an usher. I wish I know whom he was as I would personally like to go up to him and discuss the mater myself and find out why he acted this way. I can only advise that these ladies go speak with the folks that are working the tables selling the tickets to see if they can have their questions answered properly.
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We have also learned from that same parent that a group of mothers, both current and former members of OLoS have started a home schooling group using traditional catholic curriculum. Presently they are holding school in the home of a church member with a very large den . From what we have heard it numbers well over 10 so far . Though all of this is slightly off topic in concerns to the church construction issue we thought some readers would find it interesting
Ten families or ten children?
Eighteen children left the school from six families.
Wow! That's about 20% of enrollment isn't it? What's wrong with the school (besides the outrageous cost)?
No, the cost is not outrageous, nor is that the problem. The school has a LOT of problems.
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So I am asking you, is there someway that you could come forward and offer to the parish a way to raise monies to pay off this debt? There are a lot of things that are being looked over right now as a way to raise money to pay off the debts, and your ideas I am sure, would be welcome for consideration.
I am also sorry that these two ladies were handled so rudely by an usher. I wish I know whom he was as I would personally like to go up to him and discuss the mater myself and find out why he acted this way. I can only advise that these ladies go speak with the folks that are working the tables selling the tickets to see if they can have their questions answered properly.
No ideas are taken with any real consideration at OLOS in my experience. Most people are summarily dismissed or even ridiculed if they offer any suggestions.
We have delayed in posting in the last few days as 2 of our members/friends were told by an Usher on Sunday 2 weeks past to stop asking questions about the raffle or leave and do not return these ladies were understandably shaken. The Usher was quite angry and accused them of spreading rumors and dissension amongst the faithful.
The experience of the ladies with the ushers is a great example of everything that is wrong at OLOS these days. Things like that shouldn't ever happen.
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No, the cost is not outrageous, nor is that the problem. The school has a LOT of problems.
You are truly blessed indeed if almost $6,000 a year (for HS) is not an outrageous fee for you to pay. If that is not an issue for our apparently affluent parishioners, then what is?
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So I am asking you, is there someway that you could come forward and offer to the parish a way to raise monies to pay off this debt? There are a lot of things that are being looked over right now as a way to raise money to pay off the debts, and your ideas I am sure, would be welcome for consideration.
I am also sorry that these two ladies were handled so rudely by an usher. I wish I know whom he was as I would personally like to go up to him and discuss the mater myself and find out why he acted this way. I can only advise that these ladies go speak with the folks that are working the tables selling the tickets to see if they can have their questions answered properly.
No ideas are taken with any real consideration at OLOS in my experience. Most people are summarily dismissed or even ridiculed if they offer any suggestions.
We have delayed in posting in the last few days as 2 of our members/friends were told by an Usher on Sunday 2 weeks past to stop asking questions about the raffle or leave and do not return these ladies were understandably shaken. The Usher was quite angry and accused them of spreading rumors and dissension amongst the faithful.
The experience of the ladies with the ushers is a great example of everything that is wrong at OLOS these days. Things like that shouldn't ever happen.
OLOS is suffering from the classic Novus ordo parish stalemate, between the faithful and "management".
The typical diocese solution is to bring-in the NO bishop and flush-out the trouble-makers to keep progressing with the liberal agenda.
In this case, you have the foreigner Fr. Wegner, who just can't cut it as a hard-nosed Novus ordo bishop. He delegates that job to the parish sycophant thugs.
Why worry about the xSPX's chapel debt?
The "management" is responsible for incurring it anyway.
Let the finance whiz kid, Max Krah and the xSPX banksters figure it out.
They can always foreclose on OLOS.
With Bp. Fellay's surrender to Francis, the diocese is going to get the property anyway.
The key thing now is to get away from the Francis groupies, re-group and keep going, holding fast to Catholic tradition, as much as possible.
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As everyone is aware the statue of Our Lady of Sorrows has again been removed and placed in the Sacristy.
…and replaced by a statue of Our Lady of Fatima for the month of October.
Interesting how that key point was left out. I don't go there, so I can't confirm or deny this. If this really is the case though, I'd really begin to think that this is beginning to become an attempt to TRY to find things to criticize. If the statue really was replaced by a statue of Our Lady of Fatima for the month of the Rosary, it would be entirely fitting. If that is the case . . . well . . . I don't need to know much more from this thread.
Greetings,
We are afaid that is not the key point . Fact is it is throughly irreverent . The parish will not see the return of the OLoS statue any time soon , unnless of course we need to be reminded again of the debt. We were well aware the statue would be moved for the month of October but Fr.C ordered it totality removed
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I am also sorry that these two ladies were handled so rudely by an usher. I wish I know whom he was as I would personally like to go up to him and discuss the mater myself and find out why he acted this way. I can only advise that these ladies go speak with the folks that are working the tables selling the tickets to see if they can have their questions answered properly.
And if you were to approach this usher and in any way admonish him you would most certainly be looking for a new church to attend. You're either naive or unaware of the power that certain ushers and parishioners have in our thoroughly divided Parish .While at church we will pursue the raffle subject no further as we do not wish to make an enemy of the ushers or that usher in particular.
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What the heck is an "usher?" What great power does he possess? I don't believe I have ever heard the term "usher," as applied to some influential lay official in any other sspx chapel.
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What the heck is an "usher?" What great power does he possess? I don't believe I have ever heard the term "usher," as applied to some influential lay official in any other sspx chapel.
In a normal parish, the ushers will help find you a seat when you arrive, which can be useful when it is crowded.
However, OLOS's "ushers" do not actually provide this service. At least, I've never seen them seat anyone. No, the ushers here collect the money. That is it.
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Speaking of money, here is the latest money summary:
http://carvecreative.com/OLOS/10092016.pdf
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This is on the website regarding the school's jog-a-thon.
This reaffirms the tone-deaf nature of the priests in not realizing how they are perceived by the faithful. Especially, considering how the faithful were treated over the past year by Fr. Wegner. I realize Fr. Stafki was not present for that, but he must have some awareness of it by now, and the faithful's anger about it, as reflected in their wallets being closed.
But, he seems to either not know, or he just conducts business poorly, as he once again brings up the debt in his letter. This won't be well received amongst the faithful:
http://www.carvecreative.com/OLOS/JOG/letter.pdf
Almighty God has granted so many graces to our thriving parish, as well as to our
school. This is not to say that we lack challenges. Quite the contrary. The large
debt incurred by the building of our beautiful, new church continues to put
substantial strain on our resources; but not for this shall we be daunted. With
great faith in the loving Providence of God, we know that we can count on the
students, families, staff and benefactors of Our Lady of Sorrows to give their all in
making this much-needed fundraiser a success.
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In this case, you have the foreigner Fr. Wegner, who just can't cut it as a hard-nosed Novus ordo bishop. He delegates that job to the parish sycophant thugs.
Why worry about the xSPX's chapel debt?
The "management" is responsible for incurring it anyway.
Let the finance whiz kid, Max Krah and the xSPX banksters figure it out.
They can always foreclose on OLOS.
With Bp. Fellay's surrender to Francis, the diocese is going to get the property anyway.
I couldn't agree more.
If it is true that the SSPX got some $80 million dollar donation from the Jaidhofer group, which is what apparently allowed them to blow $20 million on a new seminary, then I wouldn't worry for one second about the "debt." Furthermore, the SSPX should pay for it - not the parishioners.
Especially if, as has been claimed here, that the design was substantially changed which made it more expensive (to accomodate priest retreats or whatever).
And, as you said, the faithful have no say in anything anyway, there is no transparency as to who makes the decisions, or how they are made, and the property will end up in the hands of the Novus Ordo after the deal - so why worry about paying it now? It isn't even really theirs.
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mw2016
Almighty God has granted so many graces to our thriving parish, as well as to our
school. This is not to say that we lack challenges. Quite the contrary. The large
debt incurred by the building of our beautiful, new church continues to put
substantial strain on our resources; but not for this shall we be daunted. With
great faith in the loving Providence of God, we know that we can count on the
students, families, staff and benefactors of Our Lady of Sorrows to give their all in
making this much-needed fundraiser a success.
The jog-a-thon is suppose to support the SCHOOL. The school tuition letter says it covers 20% of their budget.
I don't know how much the kids are expected to raise but I do know the teachers have been told their assigned amount is $500 per person. I wonder if they too will be "billed" for any amount they are under as school families are billed for their fundraising shortfall.
from the bulletin:
all proceeds this year will be going
towards operating costs and the purchase of new lights and sound
equipment for the Performing Arts Center.
No one has ever explained to me why we even need an Performing "Arts" Center, that was colossal waste of money.
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I do know the teachers have been told their assigned amount is $500 per person. I wonder if they too will be "billed" for any amount they are under as school families are billed for their fundraising shortfall.
Yes, the parents get a bill for all donations not "donated."
I've always felt there was something intrinsically unjust about this, very unCatholic. Because then it is no longer a donation, if you are getting a bill. And the parents are the LAST people they should be looking for donations from, as most parents are already struggling to pay for the tuition.
It is kind of like "mandatory volunteering" or being "volun-told."
No one has ever explained to me why we even need an Performing "Arts" Center, that was colossal waste of money.
Yep. Wonder who made that decision?
$100K toward a remodel on that space that probably didn't need that much remodeling,
...and not a penny toward a special ed teacher, when they have at LEAST a half-dozen families with Down's children who would probably enjoy being able to send their kids to a special ed class.
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Phx Group:
I appreciate your candid remark to me and that I might be a little naïve. I am not afraid to go up to any usher or group of ushers or any perceived influential person in the parish. I think that in any situation, whether it is at church, at work, or in our neighborhood, there will be people that we do not care for. However it does not bother me to walk up to any person and talk to them about how they handled a situation such as to the ladies that had questions of the raffle. I doubt that I will be thrown out of my parish for asking questions to other parishioners and to a priest as long as it is done with respect and calmly to all. I have been a member of this parish most likely longer than anyone in your group, or close to it. I want, like I feel that you do, to work through these problems the best we can. So if it is too raise money to pay off the outrageous debt, then let us do it. Like I said instead of just complaining, ( believe me I do my share) let us move forward. Let us address unacceptable behavior by ushers, let us address negative remarks that get us nowhere in getting this parish on the right track, and let us try no matter how hard it is at times, to come together the best we can even though we may not like the ways of certain people, and build the parish. If you would like to send me a private e-mail, I will personally go up to that usher to talk to them about their conduct. I think that something else needs to addressed here; I was questioned about how much time was spent at the church by the family that had donated a lot of money towards the building fund. I will go on record again, and this has been confirmed to me by others, that this extended family puts in a lot of time volunteering at the church. So to be fair to them, I felt that I needed to make sure that it was not only my own personal observations.
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Phx Group:
I appreciate your candid remark to me and that I might be a little naïve. I am not afraid to go up to any usher or group of ushers or any perceived influential person in the parish. I think that in any situation, whether it is at church, at work, or in our neighborhood, there will be people that we do not care for. However it does not bother me to walk up to any person and talk to them about how they handled a situation such as to the ladies that had questions of the raffle. I doubt that I will be thrown out of my parish for asking questions to other parishioners and to a priest as long as it is done with respect and calmly to all. I have been a member of this parish most likely longer than anyone in your group, or close to it. I want, like I feel that you do, to work through these problems the best we can. So if it is too raise money to pay off the outrageous debt, then let us do it. Like I said instead of just complaining, ( believe me I do my share) let us move forward. Let us address unacceptable behavior by ushers, let us address negative remarks that get us nowhere in getting this parish on the right track, and let us try no matter how hard it is at times, to come together the best we can even though we may not like the ways of certain people, and build the parish. If you would like to send me a private e-mail, I will personally go up to that usher to talk to them about their conduct. I think that something else needs to addressed here; I was questioned about how much time was spent at the church by the family that had donated a lot of money towards the building fund. I will go on record again, and this has been confirmed to me by others, that this extended family puts in a lot of time volunteering at the church. So to be fair to them, I felt that I needed to make sure that it was not only my own personal observations.
Greetings,
It has become clear to us that the reason you are so willing to confront the Ushers and
question parishioners is that you are in fact an Usher yourself ,your family is involved with the administration and not to mention close friends with the very Usher constantly alluded to on this forum .He moves around the church grounds as though he owns them ,he enters the priory and office at will , he has copies of the keys to enter the basement and any other place he wishes including the sacristy ,He bans people from the property and he is aggressive to anyone he questions. So we guess it is only natural you have the feeling of power to allow yourself do what you want but others of us are not so lucky
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from the bulletin:
all proceeds this year will be going
towards operating costs and the purchase of new lights and sound
equipment for the Performing Arts Center.
I'm sorry, but I automatically suspect anyone of Modernism who would call a school auditorium a "Performing Arts Center". This kind of jargon just screams politically correct liberalism.
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I do know the teachers have been told their assigned amount is $500 per person. I wonder if they too will be "billed" for any amount they are under as school families are billed for their fundraising shortfall.
Yes, the parents get a bill for all donations not "donated."
I've always felt there was something intrinsically unjust about this, very unCatholic. Because then it is no longer a donation, if you are getting a bill. And the parents are the LAST people they should be looking for donations from, as most parents are already struggling to pay for the tuition.
It is kind of like "mandatory volunteering" or being "volun-told."
No one has ever explained to me why we even need an Performing "Arts" Center, that was colossal waste of money.
Yep. Wonder who made that decision?
$100K toward a remodel on that space that probably didn't need that much remodeling,
...and not a penny toward a special ed teacher, when they have at LEAST a half-dozen families with Down's children who would probably enjoy being able to send their kids to a special ed class.
Back in 2014-15, the story was that the mother of one of the parishioners had donated the cost for the PAC...what happened there?! And if the teachers will have to come up with the difference of what they don't raise in donation, I guess that some will have to agree for the priory to cut off their utilities, repo a car, etc.
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Duh..uhhm... I think there's a name for it?
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/armstrongeconomics-wp/2013/11/shell-game.jpg)
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Perhaps it could be verified if the "on campus" teachers are still being "taken care of" by the priory. Maybe that's another reason why they need more money?
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Perhaps it could be verified if the "on campus" teachers are still being "taken care of" by the priory. Maybe that's another reason why they need more money?
Suspect there will be money coming soon enough.
Menzingen and Father Wegner have big plans for the Phoenix chapel and are thinking way ahead of the pew faithful.
The capacity was increased for more "throughput", meaning after the SSPX is regularized, you'll see a significant increase in devout newChurcher traffic.
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Oh good! Phew! :facepalm:...thought that they might have to change something there...be of good heart, parishioners and families who pay tuition: the "on campus" teachers (including the those of the separate house) are well taken care of. Jog-A-Thon, bring it on! Fork over the cash! :popcorn:
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As everyone is aware the statue of Our Lady of Sorrows has again been removed and placed in the Sacristy.
…and replaced by a statue of Our Lady of Fatima for the month of October.
...And now we are back to nothing . A empty echo chamber devoid of any reminder of our being a traditional catholic church
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Maybe they are saving the chamber for some "special art" ?
As evidenced by the xSPX's recent art work in Spain...
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3mjfSTuWqjI/V5YmG8ntTlI/AAAAAAABBKM/WyV6AU_IPrg2FvU3w4TQV3UohFC_1Y3ZgCLcB/s400/1.jpg)
Their taste... is getting strange.
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Any word about what happens at the end of the Mercy Year to the SSPX's faculties for absolution? Or is Sunday the day when the "Grand Announcement" is made?
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Any word about what happens at the end of the Mercy Year to the SSPX's faculties for absolution? Or is Sunday the day when the "Grand Announcement" is made?
Are you kidding, this information is classified, "SSPX Top Secret"
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Any word about what happens at the end of the Mercy Year to the SSPX's faculties for absolution?
You expect clarity from Francis?
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As everyone is aware the statue of Our Lady of Sorrows has again been removed and placed in the Sacristy.
…and replaced by a statue of Our Lady of Fatima for the month of October.
...And now we are back to nothing . A empty echo chamber devoid of any reminder of our being a traditional catholic church
That's not true. There's still a statue of the Blessed Virgin on the apex of the baldachin along with two angel statues. The beautiful pietà is still in the vestibule. A small St. Cecilia statue is still in the choir loft.
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Who's planning on going to Fr. Stafki's Parish Meeting on Sunday morning?
http://carvecreative.com/OLOS/12042016.pdf
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That's funny...the bulletin says questions answered from Question Box...so nothing that will embarrass them.
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Who's planning on going to Fr. Stafki's Parish Meeting on Sunday morning?
I didn't.
What questions were asked and answered?
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I'm surprised PhxGroup has not responded.
Maybe people are afraid to talk.
It was mostly financial, and about how the Church is broke.
They admitted to the windows donations being spent on other things, and now they cannot raise money for windows.
They also said Bp. Fellay and Fr. Wegner required things that made the Church more expensive.
Which brings about an obvious question: if they required it, why isn't the SSPX paying for it?
Insetad, they are making parishioners pay for a Church they cannot afford.
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Here's the other page:
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They admitted to the windows donations being spent on other things, and now they cannot raise money for windows.
They also said Bp. Fellay and Fr. Wegner required things that made the Church more expensive.
Which brings about an obvious question: if they required it, why isn't the SSPX paying for it?
Insetad, they are making parishioners pay for a Church they cannot afford.
The attached docuмents seemed to be more of an agenda than minutes as it provided a lot of broad issues but no specifics.
No one should ask why the SSPX didn't pay for things it required. Superiors often require lower levels to do things without providing the funds. A parish would have to do things that the parishioners may not think necessary but the diocese tells them to do anyway. The question is not why the SSPX didn't pay for the requirements but what on earth did they require that cost so much money so that the parish had to raid the window fund?
A fair question, however, is what's wrong with the "old statues" that have not been approved by the SSPX District?
Additionally, what are all the additional expenses that the parish is incurring?
Of course, there are a lot of questions that have not been answered here, though they may have been asked and answered at the meeting itself. But, somehow, I doubt it.
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They admitted to the windows donations being spent on other things, and now they cannot raise money for windows.
They also said Bp. Fellay and Fr. Wegner required things that made the Church more expensive.
Which brings about an obvious question: if they required it, why isn't the SSPX paying for it?
Insetad, they are making parishioners pay for a Church they cannot afford.
The attached docuмents seemed to be more of an agenda than minutes as it provided a lot of broad issues but no specifics.
No one should ask why the SSPX didn't pay for things it required. Superiors often require lower levels to do things without providing the funds. A parish would have to do things that the parishioners may not think necessary but the diocese tells them to do anyway. The question is not why the SSPX didn't pay for the requirements but what on earth did they require that cost so much money so that the parish had to raid the window fund?
A fair question, however, is what's wrong with the "old statues" that have not been approved by the SSPX District?
Additionally, what are all the additional expenses that the parish is incurring?
Of course, there are a lot of questions that have not been answered here, though they may have been asked and answered at the meeting itself. But, somehow, I doubt it.
They made the edifice 30% bigger than originally planned, costs for materials went up in the interim between budget and build, city required it started by certain date for permits, etc.
Additional monthly expenses include electric bill, water bill, etc. as the new building is many times larger than the old Church.
Old statues are deemed "unworthy" by Wegner - he wants the marble statues that are probably the ones that came from Immaculate Conception, like the altar, baldachin, and communion rail, and would therefore match.
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(http://wordpress.catholicapedia.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/abbe-Jurgen-Wegner.jpg)
"Ya, you dummkopf... I told you already.. I vant it this vay"
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They admitted to the windows donations being spent on other things, and now they cannot raise money for windows. They also said Bp. Fellay and Fr. Wegner required things that made the Church more expensive.
No wonder why they are not getting the donations.
By the way, it is the epitome of insolence for one who is dependent on donations, to chastise people for not donating. It is crude and impolite.
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C) did lots of promoting/recruiting for the Resistance and Fr. Pfeiffer, at the cost of my own reputation there. This included in-person talking in the parish hall, as well as sending out e-mail invites to everyone I could get an e-mail address for.
How does those decisions look in a hindsight?
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How does those decisions look in a hindsight?
How was Matthew to know that Fr. Pfeiffer would go off the rails? I doubt he’d have done anything differently, having no ability to know the future. He has a chapel and fairly regular Mass on his property, if I understand correctly. I’d say that’s pretty good compared with the large majority of people on CathInfo.
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How was Matthew to know that Fr. Pfeiffer would go off the rails? I doubt he’d have done anything differently, having no ability to know the future. He has a chapel and fairly regular Mass on his property, if I understand correctly. I’d say that’s pretty good compared with the large majority of people on CathInfo.
I did not imply any conclusion in my question. Although, I disagree that we have absolutely no ability to predict the future. Some things are inevitable.
In any case - while I am not OLoS parish parishioner - I know that place and was wondering of there is some post-mortem to 2016 heated discussion. BTW still, there is no stain glass.