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Author Topic: Phoenix sspx chapel update  (Read 117778 times)

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Offline mw2016

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Phoenix sspx chapel update
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2016, 03:02:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Quote from: songbird
    My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave?

    Perhaps to Queen of the Holy Rosary with Fr. Cordova, CMRI.



    I am not aware of anyone heading to a sede parish. I'm not sede either, so I would never go to Bp. Sanborn's place or others.

    I aware of one family who went to the FSSP, and the reason why, which relates to some of the "changes" taking place.

    I'm not surprised there are others there. I have no issue with the FSSP in particular, although I am not a fan of Fr. Remski.

    I do wonder what he will do with his dislike of the SSPX when the deal happens shortly...haha.

    Offline mw2016

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #91 on: April 20, 2016, 03:05:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Last Tradhican


    Interesting, the majority of the people leaving because of the SSPX change are going to the FSSP and the Diocese indult mass. This shows that the complaints have nothing to do with the Resistance. The people are leaving because they are being treated badly, treated like servants.


    I do wonder about this.

    Fr. Pfeiffer is the Resistance priest here, and since some of the OLOS crowd may not view him favorably, I wonder if that may be why they don't end up at the Resistance.


    Offline mw2016

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #92 on: April 20, 2016, 04:24:04 PM »
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  • It is also to be mentioned that Fr. Wegner (in his money chastisement) said that SSPX parishes pay a "tax" to the SSPX that goes into a legal fund to defend lawsuits against them.

    Perhaps PhxGroup can expand on that a bit.

    Lawsuits??

    Offline mw2016

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #93 on: April 20, 2016, 04:29:48 PM »
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  • This one was way before my time, but it came up when I googled SSPX lawsuits...

    http://www.leagle.com/decision/19841482586FSupp896_11315/BOLDUC%20v.%20BAILEY

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #94 on: April 20, 2016, 07:27:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Last Tradhican
    Quote from: PhxGroup
    Quote from: songbird
    My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave?  


     There are many places in the valley besides Mater Misericordiae FSSP
    that by the way is full of people that left OLoS

      Our Lady of the Sun Catholic Church
      Our Lady of Quito Fr.Finnigan
       not to mention at least 3 diocese locations . We are not recommending any one of these. For the time being we are going to stay and fight but we see many have gone to these other locations  


    Interesting, the majority of the people leaving because of the SSPX change are going to the FSSP and the Diocese indult mass. This shows that the complaints have nothing to do with the Resistance. The people are leaving because they are being treated badly, treated like servants.


    In my case, because I have doubts about the new ordination rite and the new formula for the consecration of bishops (to be blunt, I have doubts as to whether they are priests),  the FSSP and the Diocese Indult mass is not an option. Since the people leaving have no such doubts, I wonder why they chose to go to the SSPX chapel in the first place,  instead of just going to the FSSP and indult? The FSSP and Indult mass communities do not need money, they have the diocese buildings and "old money" from 100's of years of donations. Why would they go through all the expense and trouble of building OLOS? Is it just because of the school?


    Online Geremia

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #95 on: April 20, 2016, 07:36:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Last Tradhican
    In my case, because I have doubts about the new ordination rite and the new formula for the consecration of bishops (to be blunt, I have doubts as to whether they are priests),  the FSSP and the Diocese Indult mass is not an option. Since the people leaving have no such doubts, I wonder why they chose to go to the SSPX chapel in the first place,  instead of just going to the FSSP and indult? The FSSP and Indult mass communities do not need money, they have the diocese buildings and "old money" from 100's of years of donations. Why would they go through all the expense and trouble of building OLOS? Is it just because of the school?
    You can't be 100% sure you get a priest ordained in the old rite by bishop consecrated in the old right with the SSPX because Novus Ordo priests do convert to the SSPX. You can be more certain with CMRI and other such sedevacantist priests, can't you?
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #96 on: April 20, 2016, 07:47:58 PM »
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  • In my case, because I have doubts about the new ordination rite and the new formula for the consecration of bishops (to be blunt, I have doubts as to whether they are priests),  the FSSP and the Diocese Indult mass is not an option. Since the people leaving have no such doubts, I wonder why they chose to go to the SSPX chapel in the first place,  instead of just going to the FSSP and indult? The FSSP and Indult mass communities do not need money, they have the diocese buildings and "old money" from 100's of years of donations.

    Why would they go through all the expense and trouble of building OLOS? Is it just because of the school? [/quote]


    You've asked a question that may have a more explosive answer than we could imagine ?

      So, Msgr. Fellay et al, have known they were going to do a deal with Rome since at least 2009.


      1. Why then, have they kept pumping their faithful for money?

      2. Why do they push to accuмulate more and more chapel properties?

      3. Why do the feign poverty and go begging for seminary donations, when the Jaidhoff's have given them 80 million Euros?

    A very handy strategy would be to drain the traditional Catholic movement of as much financial resources as possible before they go newChuch.

    The xSPX's new theology is: "We are Church and Trads outside of the xSPX are schismatic and going to Hell".

    It is very likely Msg. Fellay has colluded with his newChurch masters to try and gut the Trad movement as much as they can.  

    Surely the both of them... do not want any further competition.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Mark 79

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #97 on: April 21, 2016, 12:19:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: mw2016
    Quote from: Mark 79
    Quote from: Aleah
    ...No need to be paranoid with me...


    Here's a question for you—What tribe perfected the tactic of treating political and religious opposition as mental illness?


    Good post!

    *raises hand*

    Teacher, pick me! I know the answer, yes I do!


    OK.... the person over there with the raised hand.... the answer?


    Offline Mark 79

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #98 on: April 21, 2016, 12:31:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: mw2016
    Quote from: Geremia
    Quote from: songbird
    My mind questions, where will the parishioners go, if they leave?

    Perhaps to Queen of the Holy Rosary with Fr. Cordova, CMRI.



    I am not aware of anyone heading to a sede parish. I'm not sede either, so I would never go to Bp. Sanborn's place or others.

    I aware of one family who went to the FSSP, and the reason why, which relates to some of the "changes" taking place.

    I'm not surprised there are others there. I have no issue with the FSSP in particular, although I am not a fan of Fr. Remski.

    I do wonder what he will do with his dislike of the SSPX when the deal happens shortly...haha.


    Fr. Remski?  If I remember correctly:

    Fr. Remski is the one who, after having surgery to fix his deafness, started giving abusive sermons, setting parishioner against parishioner... AND... he gave to the Novus Ordo bishop $300,000 of money that the parishioners had donated set aside for chapel improvements.  The owner of the property and the remaining parishioners had the FSSP leave and invited the SSPX instead.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #99 on: April 21, 2016, 12:37:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: mw2016
    It is also to be mentioned that Fr. Wegner (in his money chastisement) said that SSPX parishes pay a "tax" to the SSPX that goes into a legal fund to defend lawsuits against them.

    Perhaps PhxGroup can expand on that a bit.

    Lawsuits??


    Have you seen this?

    http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/farmingville-church-misused-donations-lawsuit-claims-1.11680441

    Fr. Wegner is named as a defendant.

    More here: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=40585&min=0&num=10

    Offline RogerThat

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #100 on: April 21, 2016, 12:46:22 AM »
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  • I have been involved with OLOS for a while and made an account just to raise a few points. Although I do not attend a Resistence mass site, due to constant travel with work and unavailability of resistence priests where I live/work, I empathize and agree with multiple points that you all and Bishop Williamson raise.

    Now, there are some legitimate issues being raised in this thread but a big chunk is based on unfactual rumors. Many of them stem from something that many "Sunday"parishioners do not understand: (1) Building and maintaining a church is very, very expensive.


    - Yes the sound system was an issue. Adjustments are made on a weekly basis,to my understanding.
    - The infamous bookstore. Gosh I never knew moving the bookstore to the Hall was such a contested issue. The manager is the same person and the books areexactly the same at the exact same prices. They still do special orders and do not charge parishioners the extra shipping charges. The size is smaller but they carry the exact same materials. The new location will be larger and more digitized to ensure faster processing of special orders. They are also planning on expanding the Spanish books section.
    - Lack of Statuary. During the design phase, the priests emphasized the need for additional side alters for easier scheduling of private priest masses. We had two options. One was to use one of the priest offices and stick 4 wooden altars there for use or to build the main parish with multiple side chapels. We agreed on building spaces for the priests to say their private masses. Honestly, none of the priests or the directors or donors regret this. There are about 3  one-week long retreats for priests during the year and these spaces have proven very useful and have allowed the priests to celebrate their morning masses without disturbance.
    - The stained glass: These will be installed, AT THE EARLIEST, one year from now. There were only 2 firms in the entire country (TWO!) that make custom stained glass that fit our needs and budget. You can't make stained glass on a home printer. They take months to make and are increadibly expensive. We are luckey to even be getting them. It was very contested because of the price.

    Some more important points:

    - Fr. R. Yes, he left and, from what people are saying, he will probably not be back. Priests get moved all the time and get re-assigned. Fr. R was seriously overworked to the bone. Anyone that actually knows him knows that he woke up at 6 in the morning and worked until sundown with few breaks. After his morning prayers and mass, he was with the schoolchildren unless he was assigned to say the 8AM public mass. He was involved with the school until 5PM, disciplining children and speaking with parents and teaching religion. He was also in charge of the grounds. Often times he was also responsible for scheduling the other priest's mass times, the retreat schedules, and preaching the retreat meditations. He deserves a break. Because of this, the duties are now evenly split between the priests and brothers. He would always ask for more help from the parishoners would, with fathers working full days and mothers doing the work of the home and school, it was an increadibly difficult task. Please pray for him and all the priests.

    - OLOS is growing and this brings large challenges for the community. Yes, there are more people not wearing their SUnday best and the chapel is looking a little sluggish. It is raising important questions about who we are as a faithful of Tradition and our relationships with "newcomers." The older generation and the younger generation have different answers and this is causing controversy and problems. Sometimes I see some parishioners speak to newcomers with a serious lack of prudence. One interaction I will never forget was how, while sipping on coffee, someone was asking a young-adult about how his confirmation was "probably invalid" and pushing him to talk to Fr. R. about being conditionally confirmed. Prudence my friends! Not all at once!

    - OLOS has an attached school. Mass and confession times for the parish have to allign well with the school's schedule to minimize parking and other inconveniences. The priests have, however, all stated, multiple times, that there is a priory next door and, as long as you call in advance, one of the fathers is always willing to sit in the confessional for you at a selected time.

    - There are also issues of the maintanence costs for the parish, the increase in mission parishes, and other issues that I'll discuss in detail in another post in the future.

    Please pray for our priests!












    Offline Matthew

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #101 on: April 21, 2016, 01:13:09 AM »
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  • Reminds me of another Roger -- Mr. Rogers, to be precise -- painting a rosy picture while deflecting attention from certain points.

    A lot of what he said didn't contradict the other statements at all.

    Lack of statuary: Did he say "no, there are 12 statues there, the lack of statuary is a rumor." No, we went on about side altars. Is that any reason to get rid of all or most of the statues?

    There is a serious controversy at this chapel, causing many parishioners to leave and not just for the Resistance. When parishioners leave in significant numbers in every which direction (indult, Resistance, sedevacantist chapels) you know the SSPX chapel in question has a problem!

    Of course, I'll grant that this post might not have been intended as a full rebuttal, and I hope not because it certainly didn't achieve that!

    Notice how he didn't address Fr. Wegner's heavy handed debt-collection tactics, and many other points given in this thread.

    And he casually mentions "more missions" -- yeah, like the San Antonio, TX chapel. I heard that recently it came out at the SSPX chapel that, indeed, all the money is being spent on flying these priests in from Phoenix, AZ. Both on plane tickets, and support for the priory which supports the priests. All in all, San Antonio can forget their own much-needed chapel upgrade for a while longer (they've waited 15 years, what's another 1 or 2?)
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    Offline RogerThat

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #102 on: April 21, 2016, 03:27:07 AM »
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  • Roger is my first name.

    Some of the statuary is in the Chapel, some of it was moved to the priory, some of it is in storage for when the basement is fixed, a few were sent to the new Colorado SSPX Chapel months ago, and I do not know where the rest is. I doubt it was sold to a company and don't know how anyone would know that unless you are on the board of directors or heard it from the priest directly.

    I do not know where this sentiment of large chunks of parishioners leaving is coming from. The Vigil mass was packed with dozens of people standing outside. Both Sunday masses are also full. I don't know how/where people are coming up with these statements. The collection amounts have been the same and are about avewrage for the typical American SSPX chapel in a mid sized city.

    Also, I do not know of where these accusations of devotions not being celebrated are coming from. There are first friday, first saturday devotions. Rosary is said in the retreat chapel.

    MOST IMPORTANTLY, the chapel is, by the grace of God, producing vocations.

    Yes, they mention the debt many times. Their is a debt that has to be repayed! Do you expect them to just ignore it? It's a huge chapel! There are thousands of dollars of costs every month. If the fathers were not heavy handed how would we close the debt? I think these will slowly subside as Fr. Crane transitions into the full time pastor and Fr. Wegner leaves.

    I didn't say everything was perfect. I didn't try to paint a rosy picture. I am not happy with how quickly Fr. R. left. I do not like the rotating priests. I do not like Fr. Wegner, even though his homilies are usually excellent because he employs a ton of Aquinas. I think the chapel was built too quickly. There was little fundraising before the project began. Everything was rushed to ensure the project was complete before the city zoning requirements changed.

    I do not anything about the San Antonio chapel and, out of prudence and a lack of proper information, I will not comment on that. I travel with my work often and am closely familiar with the Pheonix, Los Angeles, and Denver chapels. Although, if things work out, I might be permanently stationed in Chicago for the next four years!


    Offline Incredulous

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #103 on: April 21, 2016, 05:24:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mark 79
    Quote from: mw2016
    It is also to be mentioned that Fr. Wegner (in his money chastisement) said that SSPX parishes pay a "tax" to the SSPX that goes into a legal fund to defend lawsuits against them.

    Perhaps PhxGroup can expand on that a bit.

    Lawsuits??


    Have you seen this?

    http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/farmingville-church-misused-donations-lawsuit-claims-1.11680441

    Fr. Wegner is named as a defendant.

    More here: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=40585&min=0&num=10



    This lawsuit goes far to explain why Fr. Veggy's need to abandon the Faith and "re-brand".



    Alas, Judas had a lot of "jew-pressure" on him too.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Mark 79

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    Phoenix sspx chapel update
    « Reply #104 on: April 21, 2016, 11:33:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: RogerThat
    ...the board of directors....



    While the Rothschild-Gutmann commissariat is quick to insist on the "imprudence" of Bp. Williamson's historically accurate (yet criminalized) statements about the most organized of God's opposition on this earth, it is actually the commissariat, "management," that is bereft of prudence.

    There was nothing prudent about presenting the project, its design, and it financing as fait accompli handed down by "directors" who now demand "rent." A simple survey before announcing the design and handing out pledge cards would have engaged the "renters" in the project.

    Parishioners are responding to the lukewarm ѕуηαgσgυє-submissive "re-branding," lack of charity ("slobs," haranguing children at play and parents feeding their babies, restraining orders, lawsuits, etc.), and malfeasance (Sloniker, Oscar Wilde plays) with the only means at their disposal: their wallets and their feet.

    To pretend that the size of the bookstore is the measure of the issues is a тαℓмυdic misdirection meant to hide the fundamental issues.