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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Marlelar on May 30, 2017, 01:16:49 AM

Title: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 30, 2017, 01:16:49 AM
The Phoenix chapel is still having trouble paying its mortgage:

SECOND COLLECTION FOR BUILDING FUND: JUNE 11 MORTGAGE PAYMENT AMOUNT $11,051 – APR. COLLECTION $9,932. CURRENT CHURCH DEBT: $2,428,205

I'm wondering if the month is a typo and it should have been the MAY mortgage payment?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Matthew on May 30, 2017, 11:21:28 AM
The Phoenix chapel is still having trouble paying its mortgage:

SECOND COLLECTION FOR BUILDING FUND: JUNE 11 MORTGAGE PAYMENT AMOUNT $11,051 – APR. COLLECTION $9,932. CURRENT CHURCH DEBT: $2,428,205

I'm wondering if the month is a typo and it should have been the MAY mortgage payment?

Recently, the SSPX pulled some sleight-of-hand and transferred a substantial "nest egg" from the San Antonio chapel (St. Joseph's) to cover the debt on the new Phoenix property.

A bit shady, if you ask me. Especially since St. Joseph's has needed a bigger building for at least 15 years now. They've been saving up their "building fund" all that time. The SSPX even has the parishioners praying a Novena to St. Joseph after every Mass, holding out hope they will get a building -- and now it will be 5 years minimum until they even get all their money paid back by Phoenix! Talk about cynical! Reminds me of Bishop Fellay abusing the piety of his Faithful (e.g., devotion to Fatima, the Rosary) to achieve his own political aims.

Keep in mind: the average man-in-the-pews doesn't even know this. Only a few connected parishioners, and those involved with the finances of the chapel, know this.

Just another reason why the SSPX is "done", and why I gave up on them. I'm glad I went off and started a new independent Traditional Catholic chapel from scratch. We're doing quite well in many ways.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 30, 2017, 05:21:35 PM
Recently, the SSPX pulled some sleight-of-hand and transferred a substantial "nest egg" from the San Antonio chapel (St. Joseph's) to cover the debt on the new Phoenix property.


Holy Cow!  You're right, we ordinary folk had NO IDEA this had happened.  NOT a good move :fryingpan:
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: MaterDominici on May 30, 2017, 07:53:29 PM
I don't see any problem with this. Borrowing money across related organizations is generally a smart move.

If the SSPX wanted to buy or build right now in San Antonio, having SA's "nest egg" lent out to another chapel is not going to stop them.

IF they are dragging their feet on building in San Antonio due to problems in Phoenix, that would not be unreasonable either since much of the nature of those problems are not unique to Phoenix itself. It's not at all crazy to consider the bigger picture when making building decisions.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 30, 2017, 07:59:33 PM
It just seems like robbing Peter to pay Paul.  Now Phx is indebted to TWO groups, not just one.  Where will it stop?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Nadir on May 30, 2017, 08:53:28 PM
I agree with Mater. As far as robbing Peter to pay Paul goes, aren't the SSPX one family? Are they charging interest on the loan? Does it mean less paid out in interest?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 30, 2017, 09:26:47 PM
I agree with Mater. As far as robbing Peter to pay Paul goes, aren't the SSPX one family? Are they charging interest on the loan? Does it mean less paid out in interest?
Since it has been done in secret we don't know if there is interest being paid to San Antonio or not. The rank and file, those PAYING the bills have no idea who they are indebted to and for how much.
I understood that building funds were site specific.  At least that was what were told years ago when the fund raising started.  I never thought that one chapel might save up it's money just to "lend" it out to another chapel, I thought each chapel was suppose to be self supporting.  But again, financials are kept secret so we just don't know what rules they are playing by.  Inter-chapel loans may be common, I don't know.  But if the SSPX is "one family" why did Phx have to take out an enormous loan? Why didn't District just shuffle the funds around back then?
It's the not knowing that is aggravating, and I think the decline in donations is a "vote of no confidence".  Why can't they just be up front about it all?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Nadir on May 31, 2017, 12:17:43 AM
Marlelar, good points! It brought to my mind the thought that they may have been taking lessons on being a personal prelature from their big brother...
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on May 31, 2017, 12:04:19 PM


Just think... the xSPX spent 2 million bucks (financed by trads).

And the real purpose for upgrading the Phoenix chapel is to be a portal for training newChurch priests.


(http://i.vimeocdn.com/video/513347694_640.jpg)

That's what you call "Max Krah" finance genius.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Lunatik on May 31, 2017, 01:32:26 PM
Whom let us see now. The collections for last month were short. Of course the collections at any church will vary from month to month. However what was not mentioned was the  fact that all of the  collections from the first quarter went over the amount needed. So this excess is used to cover the short month. So in reality, there was not really a shortage, just a short month correct?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: songbird on May 31, 2017, 04:05:44 PM
Don't forget, the loss of parishioners next, and parishioners finding ways to make funny money.  IF new order takes over, maybe the debt will be paid for by the gov/t since new order supports gov't state and takes federal monies.  Very sad!
Title: You guys are talking chump change.
Post by: White Wolf on June 03, 2017, 10:31:43 PM
Just consider how much money the SSPX sank into "Fullerton's Folly" in Missouri and "Fellay's Folly" in Virginia, two totally unnecessary construction projects in multiples of $1KK.  While the shennanigans are not as bad as N O (yet), it is beyond me why anybody would deposit $.02 in any SSPX coffer.
Even in the good 'ol days the district headquarters spent money as though they were a branch of the Pentagon.  Oh, for the real good 'ol days when canons forbid priests to handle coinage, let alone have credit cards and bank accounts... 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on December 30, 2017, 06:53:01 PM
The fact is the SSPX hierarchy are at a loss as what to do about
Phoenix
The parishioner count keeps droping as does the school count
They burn though priests like no other chapel in the SSPX
The congregation is splinted into clicks  
The donations are lower then they were at almost any time in the chapels history

that is just a few of the reasons Fr.Wegner  sent his number 2 man to Phoenix ,to try and figure out what the problem is . He is to address other things like bringing bingo in to help pay the debt . It was stopped by 2 of the "insider families" and the lack of volunteers.  Or why they are talking about hiring a cleaning service to clean the church because of the lack of volunteers they all ready have to pay a  landscaping to maintain the lawns and plants. Or in an approved attempt to foster unity they spent 6000$ on choir books for the pews that go defiantly unused.or why the district receives more complaints by far about the goings on at Phoenix then any other chapel in North America. Fr. D sure has his work cut out for him  
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on December 30, 2017, 09:08:23 PM

I wonder if Father Wegner ever understood "traditional Catholic public relations"?

Our Lady of Sorrows "re-branded" and degenerated into a trad/liberal battleground.

(https://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/cptELYrYnL5wdNdeZ8x-Mw/l.jpg)

The only allure the SSPX has ever had was being humble, defending the Faith, priestly formations and the Tridentine Mass.


Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 30, 2017, 10:07:48 PM
The fact is the SSPX hierarchy are at a loss as what to do about
Phoenix
The parishioner count keeps droping as does the school count
They burn though priests like no other chapel in the SSPX
The congregation is splinted into clicks  
The donations are lower then they were at almost any time in the chapels history

that is just a few of the reasons Fr.Wegner  sent his number 2 man to Phoenix ,to try and figure out what the problem is . He is to address other things like bringing bingo in to help pay the debt . It was stopped by 2 of the "insider families" and the lack of volunteers.  Or why they are talking about hiring a cleaning service to clean the church because of the lack of volunteers they all ready have to pay a  landscaping to maintain the lawns and plants. Or in an approved attempt to foster unity they spent 6000$ on choir books for the pews that go defiantly unused.or why the district receives more complaints by far about the goings on at Phoenix then any other chapel in North America. Fr. D sure has his work cut out for him  
Glad to hear the choir books are going unused!

According to this study by Dr. Carol Byrne, St. Pius X never called for congregational signing or "active participation" (Neither did he allow women in the choir - a feature of nearly every SSPX chapel in the world):

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f073_Dialogue_1.htm (See parts I - III)

For a convenient list of all 63 (so far) installment titles, see here: http://sodalitium-pianum.com/tracking-the-history-of-liturgical-corruption/
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: ryanaugustine on December 30, 2017, 11:45:44 PM
I'm posting this here because it is germane to the subject; not only was I a parishioner in PHX but I was recently a seminarian:

While at Seminary I learned of a certain concrete pour at Virginia that was done incorrectly because of communication problems with the priests in charge and the ever-changing contractors involved and/or architectural firms involved, that had to be redone to the tune of several million dollars.

The SSPX is a sick organization and should be avoided at all costs. 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Last Tradhican on December 31, 2017, 04:07:20 AM
I'm posting this here because it is germane to the subject; not only was I a parishioner in PHX but I was recently a seminarian:

While at Seminary I learned of a certain concrete pour at Virginia that was done incorrectly because of communication problems with the priests in charge and the ever-changing contractors involved and/or architectural firms involved, that had to be redone to the tune of several million dollars.

The SSPX is a sick organization and should be avoided at all costs.
Cost overruns in construction due to many reasons is as common as cats in the kitchen. In a project as big as that Virginia $eminary, I estimate the entire construction will run well over $100,000,000 (one hundred million), and I would expect that they have a performance bond from the contractor. A performance bond is insurance to cover any cost overruns due to the contractors errors.

Judging from what I have seen of other projects, I doubt they had a performance bond. However, this is 200 times bigger than their typical projects. Even I, find it hard to believe that they would not have a performance bond from the contractor.

I have written many times about that new $eminary, it should never have been even contemplated. They could have expanded the Winona seminary living quarters for $5 million nad have been done with it.

Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Last Tradhican on December 31, 2017, 04:13:40 AM
The SSPX is a sick organization and should be avoided at all costs.
Why punish yourself by staying home and avoiding the good priests of the SSPX because of "Menzingen" hierarchy"? Why avoid the Holy Sacrifice and the sacraments from what may be the only valid priests in the State? Go to mass and let God sort out the rest.

Go to the SSPX chapels, but do not give them money. Obviously, they do not need our money as they are rich, and we are poor. In the normal course of life, the poor do not give to the rich.

Who do you know that can build an unnecessary $100,000,000 (one hundred million dollar) building but the extremely rich?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on December 31, 2017, 06:10:00 AM
According to this study by Dr. Carol Byrne, St. Pius X never called for congregational signing or "active participation" (Neither did he allow women in the choir - a feature of nearly every SSPX chapel in the world):

A Saint's wisdom it is.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/441429336101748736/taR5jBiw.jpeg)
He even tried to save us from Catholic divas.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: hollingsworth on December 31, 2017, 12:58:38 PM
Quote
The SSPX is a sick organization and should be avoided at all costs.
To which LT replies:

Quote
Why punish yourself by staying home and avoiding the good priests of the SSPX because of "Menzingen" hierarchy"? Why avoid the Holy Sacrifice and the sacraments from what may be the only valid priests in the State? Go to mass and let God sort out the rest.
We stay away from Rome because of the Vatican hierarchy.  Why not stay at home and avoid the Menzingen hierarchy, as well? Yet LT, along with many other sspx trads, seems to think that sspx priests and sacraments are more "valid" than many (all?) others. Yes, sspx priests may be the only "valid priests in the State."  What "State?"  Do you mean 'world?'  What gives you the idea that sspx priests "may" be more valid than most?  This thinking, IMO, is cultic and inexcusable.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on December 31, 2017, 03:28:19 PM
Cost overruns in construction due to many reasons is as common as cats in the kitchen. In a project as big as that Virginia $eminary, I estimate the entire construction will run well over $100,000,000 (one hundred million), and I would expect that they have a performance bond from the contractor. A performance bond is insurance to cover any cost overruns due to the contractors errors.

Judging from what I have seen of other projects, I doubt they had a performance bond. However, this is 200 times bigger than their typical projects. Even I, find it hard to believe that they would not have a performance bond from the contractor.

I have written many times about that new $eminary, it should never have been even contemplated. They could have expanded the Winona seminary living quarters for $5 million nad have been done with it.

As in Phoenix, it demonstrates that the SSPX lacks the management skills to oversee the build.

Note: Max Krah admitted in a 2011 Remnant interview that the Jaidoff funds he was managing were earmarked to help build the Virginia seminary.  Father Asher is the treasurer of that seminary corporation and would know the exact expenditures.

Yes, the expansion of Winona made perfect economic and practical sense. 

But once one realizes the zionist Max Krah was behind the scenes, we know the Virginia site was chosen by the Society for political, re-branding purposes.

(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24993163_2117864288441889_4486783382357531116_n.jpg?oh=745c772c296824c9f71f5c4da1f38ed9&oe=5AFD8460)
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: 1st Mansion Tenant on December 31, 2017, 04:10:52 PM
Does anybody remember a  cathedral or huge church the SSPX was soliciting donations for? It was a few years back. It was supposed to be a very beautiful structure that was like the great churches of the past to show the world the glory of God? There was a drawing of it on the letter they sent out. Does anybody know what became of that project?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on December 31, 2017, 07:00:02 PM
Does anybody remember a  cathedral or huge church the SSPX was soliciting donations for? It was a few years back. It was supposed to be a very beautiful structure that was like the great churches of the past to show the world the glory of God? There was a drawing of it on the letter they sent out. Does anybody know what became of that project?

There were a lot of SSPX fundraiser listings for "Donate Now", but I think I found it from 2012 ?

This was the big year for Bp. Fellay to consolidate his power.
(http://www.anewimmaculata.org/images/testimonial-2.jpg)
Immaculata History (http://www.anewimmaculata.org/history.html)
   (http://www.anewimmaculata.org/images/slices/a-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Wessex on December 31, 2017, 07:57:08 PM
It is unusual for money to flow from Europe for grand projects in America. It is usual for it to be the other way as the US Catholic population was always regarded as a reliable cash cow. Whatever contribution was said to have come from the Rothschild empire, Menzingen would make sure that at least a substantial part of the Virginia white elephant would over time have to be met by Americans. The SSPX is in the hands of Swiss bookkeepers whose financial abilities will outshine any successes in the restoration field. Indeed, financial considerations have and will determine the corporation's mission during its entire existence. It is not to be ruled out that eventually it may buy into a cash-strapped Rome if the bribe were big enough. 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Last Tradhican on December 31, 2017, 08:48:57 PM
To which LT replies:
We stay away from Rome because of the Vatican hierarchy.  Why not stay at home and avoid the Menzingen hierarchy, as well? Yet LT, along with many other sspx trads, seems to think that sspx priests and sacraments are more "valid" than many (all?) others. Yes, sspx priests may be the only "valid priests in the State."  What "State?"  Do you mean 'world?'  What gives you the idea that sspx priests "may" be more valid than most?  This thinking, IMO, is cultic and inexcusable.
It is precisely those that thought the SSPX were the white knights sent by God to save the Church (a cult? Maybe for some) who now feel betrayed, that are the most hardline against each and every SSPX priests, precisely and justifiable because they have been betrayed. I on the other hand never really expected anything from the SSPX because from the beginning I knew that they taught in their seminaries that Jєωs, Mohamendans, Buddhists etc., can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. If they swallow that camel, they'll swallow anything. What is happening to the SSPX was no surprise to me.

I strictly go to the SSPX chapels because I know their priests are valid. If tomorrow an equally valid sede priest would set up a church nearer to me, or is a better priest, I would go there. Before the revolution of Vatican II religion, people went to a particular because it was the closest or because of the priests. In our time, I have just added valid priest.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: St Ignatius on December 31, 2017, 09:08:37 PM
Glad to hear the choir books are going unused!

According to this study by Dr. Carol Byrne, St. Pius X never called for congregational signing or "active participation" (Neither did he allow women in the choir - a feature of nearly every SSPX chapel in the world):
:applause:
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Recusant Sede on December 31, 2017, 09:17:26 PM
It is unusual for money to flow from Europe for grand projects in America. It is usual for it to be the other way as the US Catholic population was always regarded as a reliable cash cow. Whatever contribution was said to have come from the Rothschild empire, Menzingen would make sure that at least a substantial part of the Virginia white elephant would over time have to be met by Americans. The SSPX is in the hands of Swiss bookkeepers whose financial abilities will outshine any successes in the restoration field. Indeed, financial considerations have and will determine the corporation's mission during its entire existence. It is not to be ruled out that eventually it may buy into a cash-strapped Rome if the bribe were big enough.
Cash strapped Rome?? All Rome would have to do is sell a few pieces of art and the problem will be solved.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Wessex on January 01, 2018, 05:32:54 AM
Cash strapped Rome?? All Rome would have to do is sell a few pieces of art and the problem will be solved.
After taming the Society, it is easy to imagine that there would be some kind of 'buy-in' for its Roman niche and payment streams thereafter. Being subject to the conciliar hierarchy means you pay for it like any taxation system. One benefit of being free from Roman clutches is you keep all the swag .... and get used to doing it!
Regarding Rome's/Italy's works of art, where they are housed are already museums attracting millions of tourists and considerable revenue. Why sell off such an asset?  
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Recusant Sede on January 01, 2018, 10:19:39 AM
After taming the Society, it is easy to imagine that there would be some kind of 'buy-in' for its Roman niche and payment streams thereafter. Being subject to the conciliar hierarchy means you pay for it like any taxation system. One benefit of being free from Roman clutches is you keep all the swag .... and get used to doing it!
Regarding Rome's/Italy's works of art, where they are housed are already museums attracting millions of tourists and considerable revenue. Why sell off such an asset?  
Not to argue about this, but then why did you use the term “cash strapped”? 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Wessex on January 02, 2018, 08:26:54 AM
Not to argue about this, but then why did you use the term “cash strapped”?
One can imagine reduced income from reduced church attendance in the absence of a Vatican audit. And the financial reality today often indicates we can be asset rich but cash poor. A nice lump sum sent south from Menzingen coffers could seem irresistible!
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Ladislaus on January 02, 2018, 10:49:26 AM
I have written many times about that new $eminary, it should never have been even contemplated. They could have expanded the Winona seminary living quarters for $5 million nad have been done with it.

Indeed.  Winona was a great place; I loved it there.  You could have added another wing to the building and have been done with it.  Except they probably anticipated an influx of hundreds of new seminarians once the deal was struck with Rome.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Ladislaus on January 02, 2018, 10:53:21 AM
According to this study by Dr. Carol Byrne, St. Pius X never called for congregational signing or "active participation" (Neither did he allow women in the choir - a feature of nearly every SSPX chapel in the world):

Agreed.  In fact, St. Pius X made it clear that singing certain parts of the Mass were liturgical functions and that it was no more appropriate to women singing these parts than to have altar girls.  This had always been the practice of the Church.  That's why "Cantor" was one of the Minor Orders in the Eastern Churches (and the equivalent of Lector in the Roman Rite).  Might as well just have women deliver the First Reading as they do in the Novus Ordo.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on January 03, 2018, 11:11:13 AM
Does anybody remember a  cathedral or huge church the SSPX was soliciting donations for? It was a few years back. It was supposed to be a very beautiful structure that was like the great churches of the past to show the world the glory of God? There was a drawing of it on the letter they sent out. Does anybody know what became of that project?
OLOS in Phoenix sent out fund raising form about that time and it was a drawing as you stated .
 The church never turned out the way the drawing depicted and yet we are told (if we ask) that the pledges are a binding contract   under the penalty of sin 
 They on the other hand have told us that they were completely justified in using the brick fund people prepaid for and the window   fund people prepaid for , for whatever they wanted 
 
The brick fund BTW was for the brick walkways around the outdoor pieta to be etched with names  
 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: MaterDominici on January 03, 2018, 01:05:35 PM
Does anybody remember a  cathedral or huge church the SSPX was soliciting donations for? It was a few years back. It was supposed to be a very beautiful structure that was like the great churches of the past to show the world the glory of God? There was a drawing of it on the letter they sent out. Does anybody know what became of that project?
I'm sure it was the project in St. Mary's that you're remembering. The website Incred linked to hasn't provided an update since 2012, but this letter from Fr. Fullerton sums up where the project was at in Fall 2011. They had $1.3 million already raised for the project.


Quote
“With another school year off to a smooth start, I wish to dedicate this month’s letter to updating you on the New Immaculata Building Project.
In March of 2010, I mentioned that we were in the process of hiring a new architectural firm for the purpose of designing a simpler, country Gothic style church that would honor the legacy of the original Immaculata, harmonize much better with the present architecture of our campus, and bring the project cost down to the original budget of $10 million dollars.  Following the advice of several professionals from our parish in St. Mary’s and from the parish in Denver, we decided to hire an architectural firm from nearby Topeka to redesign the project.
After nearly a year of careful consideration and diligent work, I am happy to say that the new design is nearly complete.  Several pictures of these plans are included in this flyer, and final drawings will be available on our newly designed website by November.  
The new design will meet the pressing needs of our large (over 3,100 faithful) and ever-growing parish.  With comfortable seating for 1,300 faithful, the new church will alleviate the current overcrowding at our 5 Sunday Masses.  Our elderly and disabled parishioners will find all levels of the new building accessible.  A crypt chapel with many side altars will provide our large priest community, as well as visiting priests, sufficient space to offer daily the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  The basement will include extra classroom space for Academy and catechism classes.  
In the next few months, once the schematic design phase is complete, we hope to develop a building plan that divides the project into phases, allows us to set concrete fundraising goals, and prepares us to break ground in a few years.  We will keep you informed of the progress.
The task of fundraising is always difficult, more so in the present economic crisis.  Over the past years, your sacrifices, both spiritual and material, in behalf of our parish and schools, have enabled us to continue providing Catholic education for our youth.  We are extremely grateful for your past contributions that amount to nearly $1.3 million for the new church.  Thank you for continuing your support now and in the future.  Your generosity is helping us to make the restoration of all things in Christ a reality.  May God reward you abundantly.”

Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Lunatik on February 05, 2018, 08:25:34 PM
I am rather stunned here the information that you are reporting. First off I have seen the counts of people attending Mass, and it has gone up  slightly; not a lot, but slightly. School enrollment while it did drop, is starting to go up again, but slightly. The bingo idea was brought up by a member of the Parish who I know, who was  trying to figure out ways to raise money for the parish. This idea came from no one else but him. Lack of volunteers? Please; I saw the sign up lists. There actually are so many that had signed up, that he started a reserve list of volunteers. Please do a better job of getting your facts straight. While some of is is very accurate, the rest is way of base.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on March 02, 2018, 09:18:05 AM
I am rather stunned here the information that you are reporting. First off I have seen the counts of people attending Mass, and it has gone up  slightly; not a lot, but slightly. School enrollment while it did drop, is starting to go up again, but slightly. The bingo idea was brought up by a member of the Parish who I know, who was  trying to figure out ways to raise money for the parish. This idea came from no one else but him. Lack of volunteers? Please; I saw the sign up lists. There actually are so many that had signed up, that he started a reserve list of volunteers. Please do a better job of getting your facts straight. While some of is is very accurate, the rest is way of base.
You are ether misinformed or worse
The school is going to lose upwards of 45 to 55 students over the summer ,this coupled with the 20% decreased projection for the 2017 school year does not look good for its remaining open.
As for your statement concerning attendance.
OLOS is down by over 100 members compared to the numbers when it first opened
and even more compared to the numbers from the old church " yeah they really needed this new church huh ? "
I afraid to say your opinions are just that, opinions. You provide no numbers or facts
 

Now lets talk of their latest gimmick. That would be requiring Holy Name members to pay dues upwards of 50$ surely they the members are aware that money , just like the window and brick fund will disappear down the rabbit hole    
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on March 02, 2018, 09:48:16 AM
I don't have any hard numbers but the church certainly "looks" fuller, although they may not actually be registered members.  I see an increasing number of casually dressed men and women in pants/shorts/leggings without a veil so they are obviously "drop-ins".  I think these increase in "snowbird" season.

I am shocked that the HNS would charge DUES !  Why on earth do they need to pay dues?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: VeritasLuxMea on March 02, 2018, 03:32:42 PM
Now lets talk of their latest gimmick. That would be requiring Holy Name members to pay dues upwards of 50$ surely they the members are aware that money , just like the window and brick fund will disappear down the rabbit hole    

I am shocked that the HNS would charge DUES !  Why on earth do they need to pay dues?
I used to be an HNS member elsewhere.
Dues, called "subscriptions" in the handbook are traditional. They are voluntary.
The handbook I still have from 1932 has (on p. 85)

Quote
Members Subscriptions

A small sum shall be contributed monthly, quarterly, or annually by each member of the Branch for its maintenance. The amount of the subscription shall be determined by the Executive Council. Members' subscriptions shall be paid to the Prefects of the Sections who shall hand an accurate account of all subscriptions received to the Treasurer, who shall make an entry of them in the Treasurer's Book.

The members' subscriptions are purely voluntary, and men (candidates, or enrolled members) unable to pay shall not be debarred from membership.
We typically gave $5 per month at the meeting when I was a member. That seemed very reasonable at the time, but if you think about it amounts to $60 per year, so more than what it sounds was proposed.
But no one every checked up on who paid, nor was anyone criticized for not paying the dues. It was all done so no one was shamed for not contributing. Still, if one is getting a benefit, in justice, he owes something back.
Such things are very typical for any parish organization that does active works, like the Legion of Mary (they have their "secret bag"), since the various activities cost something, and it's not the parish's duty to pay for the Charitible work of its parishoners.
Without such monies how do you expect such groups to invite speakers to come for spiritual, historical, liturgical or doctrinal conferences? How are they to pay for the various things used like medals, pins, booklets, etc.? What about the stipend for the Masses they are meant to offer for members? How about the cost of pamphlets for their apostolic works? Fliers for the activity they are running?
In short, it's not a gimmick. It's the traditional way such things were always done.
Now, if they are requiring, as in "you can't be a member unless you cough up $50" then that is directly against the principles in the handbook. But then it's a far different thing to say "dues are $50 per year, if you can pay them" and "you can't become a member unless you pay $50".
And who really can't afford $50 per year? If you can't do that, perhaps you need to spend the time you would be going to such meetings and work to get a bit more money.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on March 02, 2018, 04:17:37 PM
Quote
Dues, called "subscriptions" in the handbook are traditional. They are voluntary.
The handbook I still have from 1932 has (on p. 85)
Thanks for clearing that up.  I was thinking more in terms of a pay-to-play system than voluntarily contributing.  Nothing wrong with asking for donations.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on March 02, 2018, 10:54:41 PM
Let's pray that Ryan finds a seminary so he can become a Priest.  

Let us pray for Phoenix and Virginia debts get paid off.   Let's pray that traditional Catholic groups obtain Historical Catholic Church properties owned by NO before they are sold off to pagans or worse.

Let us pray that the SSPX and the whole Catholic Church kicks out evil and restores everything back to Jesus.  

Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on March 03, 2018, 12:52:51 PM
Who is "Ryan"?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Lunatik on March 09, 2018, 03:14:11 PM
Town Crier: I do not think that I am misinformed or worse. When I spoke about the school enrollment it was before we had a few large families decide to leave and start their own school. So at this point yes, the enrollment will take a big drop. I am not sure where you are getting your numbers from on church enrollment, as I do not know how far back you are going in time. However I sometimes see the counts taken during Mass, and like I say, attendance has climbed, but ever so slightly. Yes I see the people walking in with no veils and in pants and they stick out like a sore thumb. Yet if possible I try to go up to them  and introduce myself and ask if they have any questions about the Mass of All Time. As far as the Holy Name Society, a vote was taken to get a general opinion of the members as to whether or not they should have dues. While most clubs collect dues to cover expenses, the HNS is not a club. The last I saw it appears that there will not be any dues collected to help cover expenses. I hope this helps to answer some of the questions the members of the 
parish might have.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on March 09, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
I agree you are not misinformed It is worse than that .You are promoting a lie 
and shielding a cover-up . You know that the numbers compared to the old church are way down, further more you know that we have lost over a hundred members who attended Mass at the old church and you split hairs about those who attend now .Many are irregular and infrequently participate in Parish activities or donate 
The bingo , now if it was sooo popular with everyone and lists full of volunteers .Where is it ? 
 If you really want to answer questions members may (as you stated)have. explain where all our money went  that was PROMISED for the windows and church interior 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on March 09, 2018, 07:12:50 PM
When I spoke about the school enrollment it was before we had a few large families decide to leave and start their own school. So at this point yes, the enrollment will take a big drop. 

This also is a untruth. You knew well before you posted about the 5 families leaving the school .you merely thought it was not common knowledge.  Here is a question for you as you seem to have little or no problem with the church or how it is run 
Walton KY. has a church with about the same number of members as us 400-500 people.
Why is it they have over 200 children in their school ? BTW starting next year we should have around 45

Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Lunatik on March 13, 2018, 11:53:16 AM
Town Crier:

I really do not know why you are telling me that I am promoting a lie. I know the numbers at the old church and again I will tell you that the enrollment is up, but only slightly. What do you think the attendance was last Sunday? Yes I agree with you that we probably have lost 100 members since the new church building. I also know that we have gotten new people that have started going to this parish also.  Yes people have left due to their not being happy with what is going on; that is for sure. Yet other people leave because they move away, for various reasons such as a new job. This is part of parish life. Is this not a true statement Town Crier or am I promoting a lie?

As for the school, I will promise you that I did not know about the families leaving the school ( not the parish), until a few weeks after I had posted this. Now you either believe what I say, or you do not. Promoting a lie Town Crier?

For the bingo: I again state that we have lists filled with volunteers, so many that we had a reserve list of volunteers. However we also have a new head priest and it is his decision now as to whether or not he wished for the parish to have bingo. So maybe you should ask him directly. I am sure he would give you an answer Town Crier.

I  think you know the answers already  as to why the money was used on finishing the building  and not the windows like it should have been. I am not happy that this happened. I can only suggest that you go to Father McDonald and ask him yourself if you feel that you do not have the answers. Again he did not make this decision, as he was not here.

Town Crier: I am only asking this; not to offend you, but you seem so unhappy at this parish. Why do you still attend Mass here? Maybe there is some other parish that you might be happier at.  Maybe there is a Resistance chapel that you could start going to, or some independent priest like Our Lady of Quito.

Please Town Crier in the future do not accuse me of promoting lies about the parish, as I have nothing to gain by doing so. 


Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on March 14, 2018, 04:08:57 PM
Town Crier:

I really do not know why you are telling me that I am promoting a lie. I know the numbers at the old church and again I will tell you that the enrollment is up, but only slightly. What do you think the attendance was last Sunday? Yes I agree with you that we probably have lost 100 members since the new church building. I also know that we have gotten new people that have started going to this parish also.  Yes people have left due to their not being happy with what is going on; that is for sure. Yet other people leave because they move away, for various reasons such as a new job. This is part of parish life. Is this not a true statement Town Crier or am I promoting a lie?

As for the school, I will promise you that I did not know about the families leaving the school ( not the parish), until a few weeks after I had posted this. Now you either believe what I say, or you do not. Promoting a lie Town Crier?

For the bingo: I again state that we have lists filled with volunteers, so many that we had a reserve list of volunteers. However we also have a new head priest and it is his decision now as to whether or not he wished for the parish to have bingo. So maybe you should ask him directly. I am sure he would give you an answer Town Crier.

I  think you know the answers already  as to why the money was used on finishing the building  and not the windows like it should have been. I am not happy that this happened. I can only suggest that you go to Father McDonald and ask him yourself if you feel that you do not have the answers. Again he did not make this decision, as he was not here.

Town Crier: I am only asking this; not to offend you, but you seem so unhappy at this parish. Why do you still attend Mass here? Maybe there is some other parish that you might be happier at.  Maybe there is a Resistance chapel that you could start going to, or some independent priest like Our Lady of Quito.

Please Town Crier in the future do not accuse me of promoting lies about the parish, as I have nothing to gain by doing so.
To answer your question 
I stay for the Mass and I stay because it is our family parish one I might ad we have been attending since 1984 .
That is the difference between you and I where as you say nothing is wrong . I say we have grave problems that are contrary to Catholic doctrine.
Those problems need to be addressed for the good of the church . 
Now that I have politely answered you question would you be so kind as to answer mine - Walton KY. has a church with about the same number of members as us 400-500 people.
Why is it they have over 200 children in their school ? BTW starting next year we should have around 45- and please do not answer by saying "Ask Fr. McDonald" that is a non-starter .You make a bold statement and then when questioned about said statment as in the bingo or the misappropriated funds you say "ask Fr. McDonald"

I would like to also ad that the church in Walton KY. is also new as is OLOS yet their church is not devoid of windows ,statuary or holy reminders .They are not saddled with a debt that parishioners do not want to pay. They are not being asked to repay funds that were misappropriated .They are not as a congregation split into opposing camps  This is a comparison of just one of the SSPX  but the fact is there is no other SSPX church with our momentous set of problems.    

Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on March 14, 2018, 05:02:44 PM
Would it be off topic to ask what the tuition is in KY?  I think the OLS tuition is outrageous.  I don't know how any family affords it for even one child much less 4+.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on March 14, 2018, 09:23:03 PM
In the normal course of life, the poor do not give to the rich.
How do you explain tithing?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Lunatik on March 15, 2018, 04:38:54 PM
Town Crier: I do not know what you mean that I made a bold statement, or that I claimed nothing was wrong. I clearly stated that some of the people  had left because they felt that there was something wrong. I also said that I was not happy with the use of the money with the building of the church. Please read it above. I do not know why the church school in Kentucky is doing so well. I do not go to that parish, and  every parish has its' own set of problems. To me it is obvious that the school is not being ran properly. Why else would these families pull their kids out of the school. I feel that it is a combination of many issues, but it boils down to again one generalized concept, and that is the school not being run properly. I commend you for being a member of the parish since 1984! I can only think of a few couples that might have been going there that long. I was curious, did you happen to know what the attendance for both Masses was last Sunday. I would like to know.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Matthew on March 15, 2018, 07:27:03 PM
How do you explain tithing?
What?
Is this some kind of anti-Clerical jab?
Priests aren't rich. On the contrary. They have given up all things (family, possibility of family/children of their own, wealth, and even living in their native town) to preach the Gospel full-time. They are worthy of our support.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on March 15, 2018, 08:31:59 PM
Town Crier: To me it is obvious that the school is not being ran properly. Why else would these families pull their kids out of the school. I feel that it is a combination of many issues, but it boils down to again one generalized concept, and that is the school not being run properly. 
It is nice to see that after our discussions you see things in a different light. I knew if you just read my posts and gave it some thought you would see past your blind infatuation 
i hope in the future you will come to the realization that the misused funds they took is an act of theft, sin plain and simple 
no I don't know the head count for both Masses . was it higher then the total of the 3 mass combined in the old church ? 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on April 01, 2018, 07:51:26 AM
What?
Is this some kind of anti-Clerical jab?
Priests aren't rich. On the contrary. They have given up all things (family, possibility of family/children of their own, wealth, and even living in their native town) to preach the Gospel full-time. They are worthy of our support.
I'm speaking of tithing not as supporting individual priests but of supporting the Church.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on April 18, 2018, 04:25:14 PM
Well it seems that our wonderful modernist church now has a new large expensive organ in the choir loft 

Lets see ; 6000 dollars on choir books now a new organ 
and yet our church remains stark and unfinished Sort of proves the rumor true that the interior of the church will not be finished until we pay off the dept regardless of promises made and funds misappropriated 
Much like blackmail or a unjust caveat 

The church is not sustaining it self .The school is at risk of closing, Donations are down & the sense of community is all but lost Yet the TLM mass centers else where in the valley are bursting at the seams,Wonder why ? Could it be that traditional minded Catholics do not want to assist at Mass in a warehouse when there are other options 
 
 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: klasG4e on April 18, 2018, 06:56:07 PM
Our Lady of Sorrows in Phoenix has had one heck of a stormy history.  Some of the "old timers" there may recall that when Fr. Finnegan was pastor there, the son of the parish secretary who was a bit mentally imbalanced led the local law enforcement on a long police chase which ended in the parish parking lot.  (It was a real "circus" -- even involving a helicopter I think -- the whole 9 yards. The fella proceeded into the priory and got hold of a 22 rifle owned by the assistant priest.  He then made the tragic mistake of coming out into the open and was shot dead.  The father of the poor lad appealed to the police to let him approach his mentally disturbed son, but was not given permission to do same and minutes later the lethal shot upon his son was taken.

Some time after that Fr. Finnegan made some very scandalous public claims which he refused to take back.  He is also reported to have refused a reassignment.   As a result he exited the SSPX, whereupon he started up his own independent chapel in Phoenix which as far as I know is still operating to this day under Fr. Finnegan.  I and my wife attended the chapel a few times many years ago until we heard Fr. Finnegan make the incredible claim from the pulpit one Sunday that Bp. Williamson was a communist.  Perhaps needless to say, that was the last time we attended the chapel.

After Fr. Finnegan Our Lady of Sorrows continued to go through some rather interesting times to say the least -- even until this day.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on April 18, 2018, 06:56:22 PM
Well it seems that our wonderful modernist church now has a new large expensive organ in the choir loft
The organ was donated for free.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on April 18, 2018, 06:58:25 PM
The school is at risk of closing
How so?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on April 18, 2018, 06:58:59 PM
After Fr. Finnegan Our Lady of Sorrows continued to go through some rather interesting times to say the least -- even until this day.
Is he the one with his own chapel down the street from Our Lady of Sorrows?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: klasG4e on April 18, 2018, 07:18:22 PM
Is he the one with his own chapel down the street from Our Lady of Sorrows?
I left the area years ago when his chapel was up and running.  It was not on the same street (Baseline), but it was relatively close to Our Lady of Sorrows.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on April 18, 2018, 09:02:42 PM
I left the area years ago when his chapel was up and running.  It was not on the same street (Baseline), but it was relatively close to Our Lady of Sorrows.
Yes, that's the one; I think he's still there.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on April 18, 2018, 10:48:33 PM
The school is at risk of closing
How so?
Half the families have left the school to attend the one founded by the DeMarks that is btw now full
and next year the DeMark school is going to double in size 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Last Tradhican on April 19, 2018, 12:49:55 AM
Half the families have left the school to attend the one founded by the DeMarks that is btw now full
and next year the DeMark school is going to double in size
What is the name of the school and address?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Aleah on April 19, 2018, 04:08:54 AM
Half the families have left the school to attend the one founded by the DeMarks that is btw now full
and next year the DeMark school is going to double in size
Do you know why this family left the school and started one of their own?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on April 19, 2018, 11:39:35 AM
Half the families have left the school to attend the one founded by the DeMarks that is btw now full
and next year the DeMark school is going to double in size
Where's "the DeMark school"?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on April 21, 2018, 11:22:10 AM
Where's "the DeMark school"?
I not sure of its location 
but all you have to do is Speak to Mr.DeMark Or one of the other 5 families 
I do Know that it close enough that the students will be attending daily Mass
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on April 21, 2018, 02:01:57 PM
I not sure of its location
but all you have to do is Speak to Mr.DeMark Or one of the other 5 families
I do Know that it close enough that the students will be attending daily Mass
At Our Lady of Sorrows or at the independent chapel Our Lady of Quito on 18th?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on April 22, 2018, 01:22:52 PM
At Our Lady of Sorrows or at the independent chapel Our Lady of Quito on 18th?
Our Lady of Sorrows
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on April 22, 2018, 01:37:34 PM
Our Lady of Sorrows
Our Lady of Sorrows students are free to go to Mass daily if they choose. What does that have to do with plans to build another school?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on April 22, 2018, 02:58:12 PM
Our Lady of Sorrows students are free to go to Mass daily if they choose. What does that have to do with plans to build another school?
I doubt the issue is students "choosing" not to attend Mass, I suspect the issue is more the difficulty of a mom getting her brood up, presentable, and to the church in time for a 7:15 am Mass, especially when one of the 6,8, or 10 kids is bound to be sick.

It is a CATHOLIC school, they should have Mass daily as a group.  Without that, the message to children is loud and clear, daily Mass is not even important at a Catholic school when the logistics are EASY!

I don't think non/daily Mass has much of anything to do with the clan that is leaving. 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on April 22, 2018, 03:17:17 PM
Our Lady of Sorrows students are free to go to Mass daily if they choose. What does that have to do with plans to build another school?
Who said anything about students choosing whether or not to attend daily mass ?
I was merely stating that the schools location was close enough to make it covenant to attend daily Mass . That's it nothing more
 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on April 22, 2018, 03:19:11 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote from: Lunatik (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=44947.msg599804#msg599804) on Thu Mar 15 2018 14:38:54 GMT-0700 (US Mountain Standard Time)
I commend you for being a member of the parish since 1984! I can only think of a few couples that might have been going there that long. I was curious, did you happen to know what the attendance for both Masses was last Sunday. I would like to know.

I answered your question with a question that went unanswered .So I will answer & ask again .
No, I do not know the totals for the attendance for both Masses . Was it higher or lower then the combined total for the 3 masses we had in the old church ? The fact that you do not and have not answered this question when posted before leads me to think we already know the answer and it is contrary to what you have been saying.
Let me also ad that this Sunday the financial totals were published in the bulletin and as I stated and you denied  Collections are down  In 2015 the monthly average collected for the building fund was around 48,000 but in 2017 it was around 14,000 .Now if you look at 1st collections and academy collections the numbers have remained consistent . Fact is no one wants to pay on a dept for a church that was turned into something that is completely opposite of what we were promised ,that remains unfinished and barren in what amounts to a blackmail scenario until we pay off the debt  
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on April 22, 2018, 03:37:41 PM
I suspect the issue is more the difficulty of a mom getting her brood up, presentable, and to the church in time for a 7:15 am Mass, especially when one of the 6,8, or 10 kids is bound to be sick.
Parents are the primary educators of their children. If daily Mass isn't important to them, how will it be to the children—even if the children do go as a group at school, apart from their parents?

St. Thérèse of Lisieux's family went to the early morning "worker's Mass" everyday as a family.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on May 20, 2018, 11:26:30 PM
Well,well well 
so the faithful at Our Lady of Sorrows learned today we are losing 3 priests and being sent 2 
The Priests BTW that are on their way have in the past by & large been involved almost exclusively with SSPX schools 
They are being sent here as a way to stem the tide of students leaving the school. 
They are not being sent here (contrary to to what has been said) to foster continuity and a feeling of community
and they most certainly have not come here to "finish" the church , oh no my dear faithful that job falls on your shoulders 
You see ,OLOS is falling apart as a parish .The school is emptying . Donations are down . 
The Social clubs started up by Fr. S are all but unattended. There is a general attitude a apathy among the parish. So those shoulders better be broad as you have your work cut out for you  

So what happened ? What has Changed from when we were all crammed into the old church with 3 Masses and folding chairs set up for over flow, When the social hall was crowded , when the school had a 100+ students ? 
The answer my dear faithful is as plain as the nose on our faces. The new church , That unfinished ,barren building we unhappily gather in for the Mass of all time   
 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on May 21, 2018, 12:04:36 AM
we have been attending since 1984
It's existed since then? Their deed (https://recorder.maricopa.gov/recdocdata/getrecdatadetail.aspx?rec=20020805079) is dated 08/07/2002.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on May 21, 2018, 12:26:16 AM
Regardless we have been there since 1984 and some families ,many in fact predate that  
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Fanny on May 21, 2018, 09:32:11 AM
So what happened ? What has Changed from when we were all crammed into the old church with 3 Masses and folding chairs set up for over flow, When the social hall was crowded , when the school had a 100+ students ?

Maybe fr. Pfeiffer and Pablo happened?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 21, 2018, 10:32:40 AM
outgoing:  Fr. K. Robinson, Fr. O. Keiser, Fr. S. McDonald

incoming:  Fr. McFarland, Fr. C. Pederson from CA, and Fr. Heynos  
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on May 21, 2018, 10:48:09 AM
outgoing:  Fr. K. Robinson, Fr. O. Keiser, Fr. S. McDonald

incoming:  Fr. McFarland, Fr. C. Pederson from CA, and Fr. Heynos  
If true I stand corrected 
I posted that only 2 Priests were transferring in 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on May 21, 2018, 01:58:12 PM
Regardless we have been there since 1984 and some families ,many in fact predate that 
When was the parish founded?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 21, 2018, 05:12:55 PM
Maybe fr. Pfeiffer and Pablo happened?
No, Fr. Pfeiffer and Fr
Leith were at OLOS during it's heyday, back when it was a nice place and Fr. P had not yet gone off the rails.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 21, 2018, 05:14:38 PM
When was the parish founded?
1979, IIRC.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 21, 2018, 05:17:07 PM
Fr. McF is too young of a priest for Phoenix.  Maybe Fr. Haynos will be prior?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on May 21, 2018, 06:21:45 PM
Fr. McF is too young of a priest for Phoenix.  Maybe Fr. Haynos will be prior?
It matters little who is Prior . The result will be the same until they address the real problem but as it is written "pride goeth before the fall "   
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Fanny on May 21, 2018, 08:48:56 PM
No, Fr. Pfeiffer and Fr
Leith were at OLOS during it's heyday, back when it was a nice place and Fr. P had not yet gone off the rails.
I thunk onceonce he met Pablo he had started going off the rails.  My bet, the books were "fixed".
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Fanny on May 21, 2018, 08:49:46 PM
Fr. McF is too young of a priest for Phoenix.  Maybe Fr. Haynos will be prior?
There's a young fr. Haynes, too.
B. Fellay likes young priors.  Bred in house to the new  NO ways....
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Mr G on May 21, 2018, 11:00:23 PM
There's a young fr. Haynes, too.
B. Fellay likes young priors.  Bred in house to the new  NO ways....
There are 4 Fr Haynos, 1 older SSPX, 1 Benedictine monk priest, an two young Fr. Haynos, SSPX (1 in or was in St. Marys, the other in St. Louis)
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Fanny on May 22, 2018, 07:59:44 AM
There are 4 Fr Haynos, 1 older SSPX, 1 Benedictine monk priest, an two young Fr. Haynos, SSPX (1 in or was in St. Marys, the other in St. Louis)
Darn auto speller...
I only knew of one young fr. Haynos....
It is interesting to me how much the sspx cleris are becoming a family, how many of the young priests are related to the old.  Almost as though it's becoming a requirement for acceptance into the seminary.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 23, 2018, 03:22:40 PM
It is one of the young Frs Haynos, but I'm not sure which one it is.

Isn't Fr. McFarland young also?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Matthew on May 23, 2018, 03:35:12 PM
It is one of the young Frs Haynos, but I'm not sure which one it is.

Isn't Fr. McFarland young also?
Relatively young, yes.  He's 35.
And even his dad (John McFarland) admits he's a product of the new Fr. Le Roux-era Seminary (which he considers to be an asset, but I disagree).
I don't know Fr. McFarland at all, so I can only guess about him -- for example, he's putting up with all the recent nonsense in the SSPX and hasn't publicly criticized anything the SSPX has done lately. So he must be OK with all of it. 

Sticking with the SSPX even to the present day isn't to anyone's credit -- it doesn't look good on any priest's Resume, as it were.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Aleah on May 24, 2018, 04:38:42 AM
It matters little who is Prior . The result will be the same until they address the real problem but as it is written "pride goeth before the fall "  
 Hasn't there been three priests transferred due to health reasons? I pity the new set of priests coming into the parish.  You can disagree with how things are being run but there seems to be a lot of meanness in the parish and that's based on first hand experiences at Our Lady of Sorrows.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: klasG4e on May 24, 2018, 01:17:35 PM
  there seems to be a lot of meanness in the parish and that's based on first hand experiences at Our Lady of Sorrows.
Meanness on the part of who (don't mention names) and what accounts for it?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: songbird on May 24, 2018, 04:35:16 PM
Is Father Patrick Crane still with OLOS?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on May 24, 2018, 11:53:59 PM
Is Father Patrick Crane still with OLOS?
no
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Aleah on May 25, 2018, 05:11:25 AM
Meanness on the part of who (don't mention names) and what accounts for it?
Parishioners and I would say it is bitterness. I think the reasons can vary but there is an obvious stress being put on these priests and part of it concerns charity.
The entire congregation should get together and pray a novena  for the sanctification of the parish.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on May 26, 2018, 12:59:35 PM
 You can disagree with how things are being run but there seems to be a lot of meanness in the parish and that's based on first hand experiences at Our Lady of Sorrows.
It is not "meanness" really, though I do admit it often feels that way. To be more accurate the parish is fraught with bitterness , anger sadness and a overwhelming sense of betrayal . I'm sorry to say but these feeling are only natural after the duplicity this parish has been put through and is still going through 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Aleah on May 26, 2018, 03:07:30 PM
It is not "meanness" really, though I do admit it often feels that way. To be more accurate the parish is fraught with bitterness , anger sadness and a overwhelming sense of betrayal . I'm sorry to say but these feeling are only natural after the duplicity this parish has been put through and is still going through
Start a novena this Sunday 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: klasG4e on May 26, 2018, 04:45:21 PM
As a quick aside to this thread, is there anyone still at OLS who remembers when the police after a long vehicular chase shot to death the son of the OLS secretary in the parking lot of OLS.  It happened during the time Fr. Finnegan was the pastor.  Fr. Finnegan witnessed it, but was in no way involved in it.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on May 26, 2018, 05:23:57 PM
Is Father Patrick Crane still with OLOS?
No Fr. Crane returned to as far as I know Post Falls . Fr. Crane did not like Phoenix in the least and requested a transfer almost as soon as he arrived . During a retreat meal service he was over heard telling one of the other Priests OLOS was the most divided, unhappy parish he has ever been to .He was also no fan of the summers here  
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on May 26, 2018, 06:07:15 PM
OLOS was the most divided, unhappy parish
Divided how? Theological differences?
I heard many parishioners left during approximately during the time the new church was being built. Where did they go? Did they become sedevacantist?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on May 26, 2018, 06:19:06 PM
Divided how? Theological differences?
I heard many parishioners left during approximately during the time the new church was being built. Where did they go? Did they become semanticist?
No not Theological differences  :facepalm: Have you not been reading this thread ?
Also as far as those who now assist at a Sede church many are not Sedevacantist or semanticist as you put it They just want the traditional Mass somewhere besides OLOS  
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on May 26, 2018, 06:30:04 PM
No not Theological differences  :facepalm: Have you not been reading this thread ?
Yes, and I refuse to believe that the unity of a parish arises by agreeing on non-essentials.
Sedevacantist or semanticist as you put it
I didn't say "semanticist". Look at my original post.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 27, 2018, 08:46:15 AM
OLOS has been struck down by God.

And yes: theological differences.

Most of the parish does not agree with the new orientation of the SSPX.

People who leave OLOS go to the FSSP because there is nowhere else to go. Almost nobody leaves to go to Fr. Finneagan.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 27, 2018, 01:24:45 PM
Most of the parish does not agree with the new orientation of the SSPX.

People who leave OLOS go to the FSSP because there is nowhere else to go. Almost nobody leaves to go to Fr. Finneagan.
So people leave the SSPX because they are compromising with the NO to go to a  group that is totally NO?  That does not make any sense. No one dedicated to keeping the faith would go near the FSSP.
There are 3 other options in the valley that are not in any way affiliated w/the NO that they could choose from.  One of them, the local CMRI chapel, has seen a dramatic increase in attendance in the last couple of years and I doubt they are coming from nearby NO parishes.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 27, 2018, 02:27:05 PM
So people leave the SSPX because they are compromising with the NO to go to a  group that is totally NO?  That does not make any sense. No one dedicated to keeping the faith would go near the FSSP.
There are 3 other options in the valley that are not in any way affiliated w/the NO that they could choose from.  One of them, the local CMRI chapel, has seen a dramatic increase in attendance in the last couple of years and I doubt they are coming from nearby NO parishes.
If you doubt it, feel free to go to MM on a Sunday and see all the former OLOS faces, more than a dozen families. 
I am unaware of any increase at Our Lady of the Sun since the Bp. Sanborn people left and the CMRI took over.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 27, 2018, 02:34:44 PM
I don't doubt you, I actually don't care where they go.  I'm just saying it makes no sense.  If their problem was truly that the SSPX was giving too much away to the NO then they wouldn't go to MM.  

They have some other motive for leaving OLS, which I hope they will keep to themselves.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on May 27, 2018, 02:55:16 PM
People are leaving Our Lady Of Sorrows for a number of reasons but the main one is the church itself and the duplicity of those in charge I myself have talked to  family's that now attend CMRI  they are not Sede they just cant stand the new and unfinished church or the unhappiness of those that remain. The same goes for those that now attend MM . It is not dissatisfaction with the SSPX but with OLOS .  
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on May 28, 2018, 01:34:11 AM
OLOS has been struck down by God.

And yes: theological differences.

Most of the parish does not agree with the new orientation of the SSPX.

People who leave OLOS go to the FSSP because there is nowhere else to go. Almost nobody leaves to go to Fr. Finneagan.

OLOS has become an albatross around Fr. Wegner's neck.

It is his "neo-trad lite" mega-priory program... that failed.

Being a foreigner, not understanding the chapel's humble history, it's hard to believe the District Superior would dare to burden the faithful with such usury debt?

And the faithful's reaction to the debt burden and the SSPX's modernist "soft shoe", is prudent and perfectly natural.

Many of us have seen similar blow-ups at Novus ordo parishes when the liberals start to drive-out the conservative Catholic faithful.

OLOS is a living example of how the SSPX's "fake-tradition" and compromises with the world are unsustainable.

Fr. Wegner is left with few options. He's become like a desperate scratch card, Lotto player.
He keeps trying to get the "right combination" of priests there, to subdue or pacify the faithful.

We should take our hats off and toast the OLOS faithful for persevering in their resistance to neo-SSPX foolery. :cheers:

Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: songbird on May 28, 2018, 11:10:11 AM
It is such a shame for OLOS faithful.  St. Catherine chapel does both; New order mess and the latin mass.  Does MM do both?  It is sad, both come under the dioceses.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Bilbo on May 28, 2018, 11:23:52 AM
Desperate times call for desperate measures and people run from OLOS to anywhere they think they can get a valid sacrament because they know that if they stay, they will surely lose their faith.

The OLOS parish is the meanest bunch of parishioners I have ever seen, and I have been in many SSPX parishes and Sede parishes over the years. I remember as a new parishioner there some years ago, most of the people wouldn't even say hi to you if you said hi first. They are a snooty bunch of fake catholics (for the most part), I call them modern day pharisees. 

The main "family" there has had total control and influence over all of the priests that come and are the main cause of all problems. Between this family and all of the other families that suck up to them and do everything they can to be liked by them and "fit in", all cause the issues that continue to haunt the parish and school.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 28, 2018, 01:23:43 PM
It is such a shame for OLOS faithful.  St. Catherine chapel does both; New order mess and the latin mass.  Does MM do both?  It is sad, both come under the dioceses.
No, MM does not do the N.O. Mess.
It is TLM only.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 28, 2018, 02:27:08 PM
No, MM does not do the N.O. Mess.
It is TLM only.
But it is FSSP so is not only under the thumb of the local NO bishop but their priests are ordained by modernist "bishops".  The FSSP will say a NO "Mass" when required by the local, and do actively participate in their group "consecrations".  FSSP is NO with a few smells and bells but no substance.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on May 28, 2018, 06:04:00 PM

Fr. Wegner is left with few options. He's become like a desperate scratch card, Lotto player.
He keeps trying to get the "right combination" of priests there, to subdue or pacify the faithful.

Perfectly put  :applause:
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: songbird on May 28, 2018, 07:09:24 PM
Don't forget about Fr. Walker and Fr. terra of MM.  The newspapers couldn't get a story straight and never told the public that Fr. Walker was shot 11 times. Someone added the date of his death and 11 rounds to equal 33.  

IMO, MM will be like St. Catherines with both liturgies being said.  But, validity, no way!
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on May 29, 2018, 01:35:47 PM
MM will be like St. Catherines with both liturgies being said.
Does the FSSP allow Novus Ordos to be said in their churches? The ICRSS does in Tucson. Such setups seem more common than "bi-ritual" Novus Ordo/TLM churches run by a single diocesan priest, like St. Catherines.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 29, 2018, 03:15:31 PM
They would have to if asked because they are under the authority of the local bishop.  An FSSP priest wouldn't have a leg to stand on to say "no" to a bishop.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 30, 2018, 07:49:35 AM
FSSP is NO with a few smells and bells but no substance.
Your ignorance shows you've never been there.
Their priests give better sermons than the current residents of OLOS.
The hate and meanness flows from the top down.
If you want the perfect example of the results of the SSPX's new orientation, look no further than the disaster that is OLOS.
Fr. Wegner is a cancer upon that place.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 30, 2018, 07:50:50 AM
Does the FSSP allow Novus Ordos to be said in their churches?
No.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: cosmas on May 30, 2018, 09:57:18 AM
ISN'T IT INTERESTING EVER SINCE THE SSPX GOT INVOLVED WITH KRAH, GREC, REBRANDING, THROWING THEIR POSSIBLY BEST AND BRIGHTEST OUT OF THE SSPX. THEY HAVE CONTINUED TO HAVE DEBT PROBLEMS. WHY DOESN'T B. FELLAY USE SOME OF THE ROTHCHILD MONEY TO PAY OF THESE INDEBTED CHAPELS AND SLOW UP THE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS EXCEPT FOR OVERCROWDED CHAPELS LIKE SAINT MARY'S KANSAS. INSTEAD OF USING SAINT MARY'S AS A FINANCIAL "MILK COW "
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on May 30, 2018, 11:17:15 AM
ISN'T IT INTERESTING EVER SINCE THE SSPX GOT INVOLVED WITH KRAH, GREC, REBRANDING, THROWING THEIR POSSIBLY BEST AND BRIGHTEST OUT OF THE SSPX. THEY HAVE CONTINUED TO HAVE DEBT PROBLEMS. WHY DOESN'T B. FELLAY USE SOME OF THE ROTHCHILD MONEY TO PAY OF THESE INDEBTED CHAPELS AND SLOW UP THE CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS EXCEPT FOR OVERCROWDED CHAPELS LIKE SAINT MARY'S KANSAS. INSTEAD OF USING SAINT MARY'S AS A FINANCIAL "MILK COW "

I suspect Max Krah is still involved with Menzingen as a financial consultant.
As explained in previous posts, he's still on the board of a German SSPX school and enjoys Fr. Schmidberger's protection.

And a zionist finance consultant is useful because the Menzingen crowd are amateurs at the art of finance.

For example, recall Fr. LeRoux initially setting the donation campaign amount for the new VA seminary at $30 million. 
Less than a month later, the SSPX came back to change the seminary campaign target to $60 million.
Clearly, they are just pumping the faithful for what they can get.

OLOS's ambitious upgrade plans came with a Menzingen agenda.
Within that plan, it appears Max and Menzingen concluded they could pump the OLOS faithful too.

They were wrong :cowboy:

Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 30, 2018, 11:54:09 AM
Your ignorance shows you've never been there.
Their priests give better sermons than the current residents of OLOS.
The hate and meanness flows from the top down.
If you want the perfect example of the results of the SSPX's new orientation, look no further than the disaster that is OLOS.
Fr. Wegner is a cancer upon that place.
The problems at SSPX are a separate issue from the FSSP. 

It is a statement of fact that the FSSP is a NO creation and must be obedient to the local bishop. They most certainly would say a new ‘Mass’ if ordered to by their local. 

Although good sermonizing is a plus, it is not required, holding the true faith is required and the FSSP compromised on that decades ago.  Now the SSPX is following in their footsteps. 

I know all about MM, I even know where the skeletons are hidden. 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on May 30, 2018, 11:55:18 AM
They would have to if asked because they are under the authority of the local bishop.  An FSSP priest wouldn't have a leg to stand on to say "no" to a bishop.
How is the reception at CMRI for SSPX refugees?

I'm just guessing CMRI would scrutinize any ex-SSPX faithful, such as:  "Do you believe the pope is the pope?"

In addition, are there any issues with CMRI's ordinations?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 30, 2018, 12:24:28 PM
To be factual,  the FSSP is a creation of the SSPX,not the Novus Ordo.

You say the FSSP gave up the true faith. If your definition of "true faith" is voicing opposition to the NO and Pope Francis's latest errors, the SSPX gave that up in 2012.


There is not a word of opposition against the NO at OLOS.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 30, 2018, 12:37:37 PM
What is the point for SSPX'ers attemding OLOS at this point? 

What leg do they stand on?

Is there something beneficial about being there? 
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 30, 2018, 02:05:36 PM
To be factual,  the FSSP is a creation of the SSPX,not the Novus Ordo.
By their own admission they were created by the Novus Ordo organization at  the request of priests who left the SSPX.

Link (https://www.fssp.org/en/presentation.htm)
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Smedley Butler on May 30, 2018, 03:06:09 PM
of priests who left the SSPX.

My point exactly. 
Founded by priests of the SSPX.
What was your point? 
What is the difference in 2018 between OLOS and MM?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: songbird on May 30, 2018, 04:49:22 PM
FSSP ordinations are not valid.  Therefore, nothing.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: songbird on May 30, 2018, 04:50:27 PM
They can also put on a "Dog and Pony Show".
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on May 30, 2018, 10:11:34 PM

My point exactly.
Founded by priests of the SSPX.
What was your point?
What is the difference in 2018 between OLOS and MM?
The FSSP was not FOUNDED by priests of the SSPX, it was established by the Novus Ordo to take in priests who wanted to leave the SSPX and put themselves under the authority of modernists.  There is a HUGE difference.
  
The SSPX still have validly ordained priests, MM are "ordained" by the NO which is highly suspect.
  
I do NOT say that all NO ordinations are absolutely invalid, but there is so much doubt that in good conscience I cannot attend a "Mass" said by anyone ordained by the NO. 
 
That includes Fr. David Phillipson currently in residence at OLS.  The Society has changed it's original position of conditionally re-ordaining men who come to them from the NO.  Huge mistake.

I am not an apologist for the Society, they have enormous problems, including slouching towards the Vatican, and only time will tell how things will work out.

We must all watch and pray.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on May 31, 2018, 07:19:00 AM
Glad you mentioned Fr. David Phillipson.

He's a true "poster boy" example of the Menzingen's acceptance of the bastardized newChurch ordination rites.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7dFJn4W9Boc/maxresdefault.jpg)

Fr. Phillipson used to be the chaplain at the St. Benedict's Center in NH, where he bashed critics of Vatican II's "Gaudium es Spes" from the Sanctuary.

On a related note, watch for SSPX operatives to be working at The Fatima Center. 

Above, you see Fr. Phillipson, but the SSPX's "stealth Dominican" Fr. Albert, has shown-up there too.

Since he lost his fake Dominican order in Belgium, Menzingen has had to find something for him to do.

More signs that the SSPX is operating behind the scene at Fr. Gruner's old apostolate.

Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on June 02, 2018, 07:44:32 PM
so it seems that the debt/blackmail payment collected from the faithful has again come up short . I would like to thank all those with the courage and fortitude to stand up to the current church admin 






SECOND COLLECTION FOR BUILDING FUND: 
JUNE 10, 2018 MORTGAGE PAYMENT AMOUNT $11,051 –COLLECTION $9,280 
CURRENT CHURCH DEBT: $2,226,719
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Geremia on June 02, 2018, 09:44:10 PM
so it seems that the debt/blackmail payment collected from the faithful has again come up short . I would like to thank all those with the courage and fortitude to stand up to the current church admin
"Stand up" by not being generous? Miserliness is a sin (https://isidore.co/aquinas/summa/SS/SS118.html#SSQ118OUTP1); being in debt is not (https://isidore.co/aquinas/summa/SS/SS078.html#SSQ78A4THEP1).
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on June 02, 2018, 11:48:22 PM
SECOND COLLECTION FOR BUILDING FUND:
JUNE 10, 2018 MORTGAGE PAYMENT AMOUNT $11,051 –COLLECTION $9,280
CURRENT CHURCH DEBT: $2,226,719


This must be a typo as June 10th is still a week away, they must have meant the May collection.

The snowbirds are gone, that may be why they came up short.  I think the summer months are usually pretty lean.  If I remember correctly they ended 2016 and 2017 in the black.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on June 03, 2018, 03:12:17 PM

Of the $11,051 monthly mortgage payment, what amount is (usury) interest?  :farmer:
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on June 03, 2018, 04:22:32 PM
I don't know, maybe Town Crier does?
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on June 05, 2018, 10:52:30 AM

This must be a typo as June 10th is still a week away, they must have meant the May collection.

The snowbirds are gone, that may be why they came up short.  I think the summer months are usually pretty lean.  If I remember correctly they ended 2016 and 2017 in the black.
The payment is due on June 10th
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on June 05, 2018, 11:26:19 AM
Whom let us see now. The collections for last month were short. Of course the collections at any church will vary from month to month. However what was not mentioned was the  fact that all of the  collections from the first quarter went over the amount needed. So this excess is used to cover the short month. So in reality, there was not really a shortage, just a short month correct?
Let me get this right . You wrote : 
Quote
fact that all of the  collections from the first quarter went over the amount needed. So this excess is used to cover the short month.

Are you saying that funds collected in other Sunday collections for say;  foreign missions , building maintenance or general fund were used to make up the short fall in the debt/blackmail payment ?
You all see ? This is the same thing they did with the window and brick money. Misappropriation or embezzlement if you prefer  
is not only a crime it is a grave sin and by donating ANYTHING to OLoS we fostering and enabling this theft 


  (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misappropriate?pronunciation&lang=en_us&dir=m&file=misapp04)
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Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Marlelar on June 05, 2018, 04:02:35 PM
I think what he means is that the building fund collections for the first quarter were more than were needed to cover the 11k+ payment so that "surplus" can be carried over to cover a shortfall in another quarter.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Town Crier on June 06, 2018, 08:36:07 PM
I think what he means is that the building fund collections for the first quarter were more than were needed to cover the 11k+ payment so that "surplus" can be carried over to cover a shortfall in another quarter.
And  I  think he is quite articulate enough  to convey his exact meaning and that is exactly what he did .  Now did he say more then he intended to, in a excitable attempt to defend OLoS  ? Possibly. Will he now attempt back peddle and say he meant something entirely different ? Possibly.

We often  Act in Haste,Then Repent at Leisure

     
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Lunatik on July 02, 2018, 06:15:03 PM
Yes Marlelar, that is exactly what I meant, no more and no less.
Title: Re: Phoenix chapel debt
Post by: Incredulous on July 03, 2018, 08:01:03 AM


With a $2.4 million debt burden resting on the backs of the faithful...

It's fitting and just for the SSPX prior to release the chapel's financial statement on a monthly basis.

Otherwise, who could believe anything the Prior says about money?