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Author Topic: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)  (Read 15263 times)

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Offline pnw1994

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Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2024, 05:35:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 05:24:22 PM
    Did I say anything wrong?  Or are you offended because I pointed out one of the (many) heresies of Lefebre?  You should thank me for that.  After all, I thought "Traditional Catholics" were all about fighting or the faith and opposing heresy.  The reality is that they are only about the defending the Traditional Mass (certainly good in itself) and fighting against the "Conciliar Church" (aka, the Roman Catholic Church). No one cares about heresy, as your reply proves.  They only pretend to care about it when they can falsely accuse the true Church of teaching it. 

    And Matthew should allow me to stay around.  If you are confident in your position what do you have to fear.  And everyone should want to have their positions challenged, since none of us are infallible; and we should especially want to hav them challenged when they could result in an eternity of unspeakable torments that are being imagination.  That's what will happen if we die outside of the real Catholic Church.
    Why don’t you listen to your Pope who recently said: all the different religions are like languages, many paths to the same God.


    if indeed you are united to Pope Francis, you should agree with this statement. So, by Pope Francis’s estimation, we traditional Catholics are just speaking to God in a different language. You aren’t being very ecuмenical right now!
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #31 on: October 24, 2024, 05:35:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 05:32:57 PM
    No, I don't adhere to any novelties.  The reason I oppose Archbishop Lefebvre is exclusively due to the countless errors and heresies that I have found in his writings, combined with the extremeley dangerous fact that he is looked upon today as a defender of the faith.  That is like looking upon Jeffrey Epstein as the ideal person to watch over your teenage dauhter while you're out of town.

    So you are concerned with the perceived problems of Archbishop lefebvre, so much so that you are willing to be banned and start up here again with another username, time after time. That's a bit obsessive. More than a bit. It's very obsessive. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline M1913

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #32 on: October 24, 2024, 05:37:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 05:34:42 PM
    To repost (and clean up) what I wrote previously:

    Matthew should allow me to stay around.  If you are confident in your position what do you have to fear.  And everyone should want to have their positions challenged, since none of us are infallible. And we should especially want to have them challenged when they could result in an eternity of unspeakable torments that are beyond imagination - which is precisely what will happen if they cause us to die outside of the real Catholic Church.
    Modify message title=Modify message
    Pertinacious schismatics must be dealt with firmly, offering them a time of reflection followed by a single warning—for the sake of their own salvation.
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    Offline M1913

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #33 on: October 24, 2024, 05:43:28 PM »
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    • I’m referring to you RacerX, as it’s clear that you’re not part of the Catholic Church but rather the Conciliar “church.”
    Quote from: M1913 on October 24, 2024, 05:37:56 PM
    Pertinacious schismatics must be dealt with firmly, offering them a time of reflection followed by a single warning—for the sake of their own salvation.
    Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 03:01:06 PM

    Which one of us still believes what the Church taught before Vatican II?  For example, which one of us still believes that the true Church - the "one, holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church" (Pius XII) -  is a visible, hierarchical, indefectible society with four marks, that consists of the bishops with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify - i.e., those appointed as heads of a legitimately established particular Church that is in union with local Church of Rome - and the faithful subject to them (Vehementur Nos, Pius X); and still believes that "those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit." (Pius XII)? 

    And which one of us now believes the Catholic Church "subsists" in hundreds of sects, separated from each other at least in governent, and that to be a "true Catholic" today one must separated from the visible organization that they admit was the true Church with four marks a mere 60 years ago?

    Only the land of make believe does the "Church" that subsists in hundreds of sects separated from each other in government constitute the True Catholic Church, while the visible organization that has existed since the time of the Apostles constitute a New Church.
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    Offline M1913

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #34 on: October 24, 2024, 05:52:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 05:48:18 PM
    Why would I be banned when what I am saying is true?  And so far, no one has challenged my on doctrinal grounds. 
    I’m willing to engage in a debate and present the Catholic truth, firmly rooted in Tradition. Once the truth is clearly demonstrated, I trust that in humility, you’ll recognize the need to ask to be banned yourself.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #35 on: October 24, 2024, 05:56:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 05:48:18 PM
    Why would I be banned when what I am saying is true?  And so far, no one has challenged my on doctrinal grounds. 

    You have no doctrinal grounds to challenge. We might as well try to challenge Mickey Mouse or Daffy Duck. It would amount to the same thing. 

    I don't believe that you care about the state of anyone's soul. But you do seem to take delight in trying to fool us with your many different personas and usernames. Can't you see that there's no virtue in doing something like that?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #36 on: October 24, 2024, 06:02:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 02:43:03 PM
    Nope.  I'm not Salza or Nishant, but you're close. 

    So, the tactic has been the same each time.  You open by attacking SVism as schismatic/heretical, trying to get the various R&R types to join with you, but then your actual positions begin to manifest themselves as you condemn all Traditonal Catholics as heretics and schismatics.

    If you believe that the Conciliar Dumpster Fire is the Holy Catholic Church and the Bergogolio is one of the successors of St. Peter in whom was never found even the stain of error (Vatican I), then you're a heretic and schismatic for asserting the defection of the Church.

    St. Pius X, had he been timewarped forward to today, to behold this cloaca called the Conciliar Church would have reckoned it as having the notes of some bizarre Protestant sect and not those of the Holy Catholic Church.

    You blaspheme by claiming that this filthy excrement known as the Vatican II Conciliar Church is in fact the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  You point to this vile whore (the Whore of Babylon in Revelation) and try to pretend that it's the Spotless Bride of Christ.  It's the false "ape" Church of the end times apostasy, and you are a partisan of it and are yourself Antichrist.

    Begone, Satan.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #37 on: October 24, 2024, 06:05:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 02:43:03 PM
    Nope.  I'm not Salza or Nishant, but you're close. 

    So the other suspect here is Jackass Joseph (JJoseph) ... the guy that became embittered for being passed over for a job that he believed he deserved and so in his vitriol transformed into an Anti-Catholic troll.
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    Offline M1913

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #38 on: October 24, 2024, 06:05:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 05:55:49 PM
    If I have said anything that is doctrinally incorrect, I welcome a warning.  But make sure it is very specific, by quoting me directly and then explaining why what I wrote is wrong.  Also be sure to back it up with an authoritative source. And if it turns out that I did say something that is incorrect, I will readily concede it.

    Since you mentioned schism, its definition is "the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of comunion with the members of the Church subject to him." (Canon 751)

    The bishop of Rome is the Roman Pontiff. Francis is the Bishops of Rome; therefore he is the Roman Pontiff.  I am in communion with him.  Are you?

    I am also in communion with the members f the Church who are subject to him. Are you?

    If you answered no to either of those questions, you are a schismatic.  That was your warning.

    Your argument is based on a misunderstanding of Catholic Tradition and the nature of true obedience to the papacy. You cite Canon 751, which defines schism as “the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.” While this is indeed the definition, it must be understood within the context of the Church's consistent teaching throughout history. Submission to the Pope is not absolute when that Pope deviates from the perennial teachings of the Church.

    Pope Pius IX, in Quanta Cura (1864), explicitly condemned the notion that Catholics must blindly follow the Pope if he leads them away from Tradition. He warned against the dangers of "liberal Catholicism," which sought to reconcile the Church with modern errors. Blind obedience to a Pope who embraces doctrinal novelties that contradict the constant teaching of the Church is not a virtue but a form of disobedience to the Deposit of Faith.

    You claim that Pope Francis, as the current Bishop of Rome, cannot be resisted. However, history shows us that even a pope can fall into error. Pope Honorius I was condemned as a heretic (condemned posthumously) at the Third Council of Constantinople (680-681), demonstrating that the office of the papacy does not guarantee doctrinal soundness if the Pope teaches contrary to Tradition. The Church does not demand blind submission when the faith is at stake.

    Pope St. Pius X, in Pascendi Dominici Gregis (1907), warned that modernism is "the synthesis of all heresies." Vatican II introduced numerous modernist novelties, such as the false concept of religious liberty, ecuмenism, and a new liturgy that is a rupture with Tradition. Catholics who resist these novelties are not schismatics—they are defending the Faith of all time.

    Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who famously resisted these errors, always maintained that his resistance was in fidelity to the Roman Catholic Church and its Tradition, not in rebellion against legitimate papal authority.
    Your accusation of schism rests on the false assumption that submission to a Pope who deviates from Tradition is required. But as St. Paul himself warned in Galatians 1:8 in the Douay-Rheims Bible: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema."

    This means that any deviation from the true Gospel, even by a Pope, is to be rejected.

    Furthermore, Pope St. Pius V, in his bull Quo Primum, established the Traditional Latin Mass in perpetuity, declaring that it could never be abrogated or replaced. Vatican II’s reforms, especially the introduction of the Novus Ordo Mass, represent a break with the Church’s liturgical tradition. Those who resist these changes are not rejecting the papacy but are adhering to the unchanging doctrines and liturgical traditions of the Church.

    To accuse faithful Catholics of schism simply because they refuse to follow modernist novelties is a distortion of what true schism is. Schism involves a rejection of legitimate papal authority when it is exercised in accordance with the Faith. Catholics who remain loyal to Tradition are the true defenders of the Faith, not those who blindly follow novelties introduced under the guise of obedience.

    In conclusion, your argument fails to recognize that submission to the Pope must always be within the bounds of Catholic Tradition. We cannot follow a Pope who departs from the Deposit of Faith handed down from the apostles. As Our Lord said in Matthew 7:20, “By their fruits you shall know them.” The fruits of Vatican II and the post-conciliar papacies are confusion, doctrinal compromise, and a loss of faith.

    True fidelity to the Church means standing firm in the face of these errors, even if it means being falsely accused of schism.

    The Church has indeed been eclipsed, as Our Lady of La Salette foretold, but faithful Catholics must continue to adhere to the truth, rejecting any novelties that contradict what the Church has always taught. We remain in communion with the true teachings of the Church and those bishops and priests who uphold them, regardless of the modernist deviations seen in the Conciliar Church.

    In light of this, I challenge you to reconsider your accusation of schism and reflect on the true meaning of loyalty to the Church. Schism is not rejecting novelties that conflict with Tradition; it is rejecting the perennial teachings of the Church. As St. Paul reminds us, even if an angel from heaven preaches a gospel contrary to what has been handed down, "let him be anathema."
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    Offline M1913

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #39 on: October 24, 2024, 06:23:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 06:14:54 PM

    Submission to the Pope is absolute; agreeing with all of his personal opinions is not.  Practically speaking, one is in submission to the Pope if he belongs to the universal Church; and one belongs to the universal Church by beloning to his diocese, which is not only part of the universal Church (in one sense), but IN which the universal Church subists (in another sense). The particar Church is within the universal Church, and the universal church is within each particuar Church.  One who is in union with their diocese and its head, provided the diocese and its head is in union with the local Church of Rome and its head, is in submission to the Pope.

    Anyone who is not in union with their diocese - for example, by regularly attending an illicit Mass celebrated in a "chapel" that is not part of the diocese - is not in submission to the Pope.

    But a Catholic who is part of their diocese, and therefore in submission to the Pope, does not have to agree with every personal opinion of the pope or every poorly worded statement that he makes. 
    Your argument regarding "absolute submission" to the Pope is fundamentally flawed and contradicts the clear teaching of the Catholic Church. Submission to the Pope is never blind or unconditional. Our obedience is rooted in the Pope’s fidelity to the Deposit of Faith, which has been handed down unaltered for over 2,000 years. If the Pope or the hierarchy deviates from this Faith, we are not bound to follow them into error.

    The Church has consistently taught that we owe obedience to the Pope only when he is faithful to Tradition. For instance, St. Robert Bellarmine, a Doctor of the Church, said: "It is lawful to resist the Pope when he invades souls, disturbs the public order, or above all, when he seeks to destroy the Church." This is clear: our obedience is not based on the person of the Pope, but on his adherence to the unchangeable truths of the Faith. If he promotes error, Catholics must resist—not to rebel, but to preserve the Church’s integrity.

    Furthermore, your claim that being in union with the diocese automatically means one is in communion with the Church is equally erroneous. The true Church is defined by fidelity to the Deposit of Faith, not mere external structures. Throughout history, there have been times when large portions of the hierarchy, including dioceses, fell into heresy—like during the Arian crisis. The faithful Catholics who resisted the error were not schismatics; they were defending the Truth.

    Attending Mass at a chapel outside of a diocesan structure does not place one in schism if that chapel is upholding the true Faith in the face of diocesan errors. The salvation of souls is the highest law of the Church (salus animarum suprema lex), and faithful Catholics are obligated to seek out the true Mass and sound doctrine, especially in times of widespread error.

    Finally, it must be stated that submission to the Pope, as clearly taught by the Church before Vatican II, does not extend to accepting every directive or personal opinion if those contradict Tradition. The Church is indefectible in her teachings, but individuals, including Popes, can err when they stray from the Deposit of Faith.

    Your argument does not hold up to the unchanging teachings of the Church. True submission to the Pope is based on his adherence to Tradition, and Catholics are obligated to resist when he departs from it. Being in "union" with a diocese that promotes error is not a guarantee of being in communion with the true Church, which is always founded on the immutable truths of the Faith.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #40 on: October 24, 2024, 06:55:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 06:37:28 PM
    You are conflating submission and obedience. Submission is general and habitual; obedience is particular and allows exceptions.

    Now, explain on what points, specifically, the Pope or hierarchy have deviated from the faith, and then show where the Pope or your local bishop have commanded you to do something sinful or believe something false.  And ifyou can't point to anything, what speifically are you "resisting".

    You make the mistake of thinking that the pope is the actual head of the Church, when he is in fact the visible head. If a pope deviates from what the actual head [Our Lord Jesus Christ] has taught us through His Church, then we are to trust in what Our Lord teaches. The pope is to be in submission to Our Lord. If he is not in submission, then how can we be in submission to the pope? He must be an example of submission and obedience to Our Lord. His job is to pass on the Deposit of Faith, undefiled by Modernist error.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #41 on: October 24, 2024, 07:15:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 06:54:54 PM
    Traditional chapels don't uphold the true faith, and they certainly don't save souls (for one all absolutions are invalid except in danger of death); but even if they did uphold the faith, you would still be in schism for adhering to one, since by doing so, you would be separating from your diocese, and hence from the pope, and from the members of the Church in union with him. 

    However you slice it, joining or publicly adherig to a "chapel" that is not part of your particular church/diocese (which makes the chapels, by definition, non-Catholic sects) is an act of schism that will bring about a latae sententia (ipso faco) excommunication, which has dire effect on the soul, since it cuts you off from almost all actual grace.
    Do you pray your Rosary, RacerX?
    Our Lady will come to your aid and the scales will eventually fall from your eyes if you do.
    No matter how long you have been serving your masters in the Lodge, it is never too late if only you will turn to Mary.
    Kyrie eleison!
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #42 on: October 24, 2024, 07:26:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 07:19:49 PM

    ... and no pope since Vatican II has commanded anything sinful. 

    :laugh1: :laugh2: :laugh1:

    Do you even take yourself seriously?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #43 on: October 24, 2024, 07:28:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: RacerX on October 24, 2024, 07:19:49 PM

    The pope is ...

    Bergoglio and his Conciliar predecessors were not popes, so there's that.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #44 on: October 24, 2024, 07:28:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on October 24, 2024, 07:15:57 PM
    Do you pray your Rosary, RacerX?
    Our Lady will come to your aid and the scales will eventually fall from your eyes if you do.
    No matter how long you have been serving your masters in the Lodge, it is never too late if only you will turn to Mary.
    Kyrie eleison!

    Only if he sincerely seeks the truth ... and that dispositon appears to be nowhere in evidence.
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