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Author Topic: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)  (Read 15252 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2024, 07:30:07 PM »
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  • The pope is the actual visible head of the Church.  Christ is the true but invisible head, and he is the only head with respect to grace, but the pope is nevertheless the true visible head of the Church.  In fact, the Church teaches that the Pope and Christ constitute one head.  If you disobey a command of the pope, you disobey Christ, unless the command is sunful; and no pope since Vatican II has commanded anything sinful. 

    If the Pope deviates from what Christ taught, I agree that we must not follow the pope on that point.  When has that happened?  Quote the specific papal teachings you are referring to, then quote the teaching of Jesus that you believe they contradict, and then explain why you believe the former contradicts the latter.

    The Pope's job is to govern the Church and defend the deposit, and your job is to obey the pope in all things but sin, and not judge how he is doing his job.  The pope will answer to Christ for how he does his job, and you will answer for 1) how well you did your job, and 2) for all the times you publicly criticized the pope for how you think he is doing his.  And I can guarantee that on judgment day you will regret every single time you publicly criticized the pope, and wish you had focused instead on doing yours.

    Buy remaining part of your diocese and obeying your bishop and the pope in all things that are not a sin.  And I bet you will never be commanded by either to do something sinful.




    It's good to see that you can talk about Our Lord. You usually take a very materialistic view of the Catholic Faith, and forget about the spiritual aspect. Obedience to the Pope, rather than Christ, is what you seem to be all about. As if the pope is God, and we are to listen to the god-Pope instead of Our Lord and His Church.

    What is it that pope Francis teaches that you love so much, since you want so much for us to follow him instead of Christ? Pope Francis has deviated what the Church has always taught. I have to assume that you are fine with that. But we do not have to be. 

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #46 on: October 24, 2024, 08:00:54 PM »
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  • Just quit wasting time with this clown.:fryingpan:

    This thread was far more interesting when we were talking about Bp. Tissier de Mallerais and Pontius Pilate.


    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #47 on: October 24, 2024, 08:11:10 PM »
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  • So, the tactic has been the same each time.  You open by attacking SVism as schismatic/heretical, trying to get the various R&R types to join with you, but then your actual positions begin to manifest themselves as you condemn all Traditonal Catholics as heretics and schismatics.

    If you believe that the Conciliar Dumpster Fire is the Holy Catholic Church and the Bergogolio is one of the successors of St. Peter in whom was never found even the stain of error (Vatican I), then you're a heretic and schismatic for asserting the defection of the Church.

    St. Pius X, had he been timewarped forward to today, to behold this cloaca called the Conciliar Church would have reckoned it as having the notes of some bizarre Protestant sect and not those of the Holy Catholic Church.

    You blaspheme by claiming that this filthy excrement known as the Vatican II Conciliar Church is in fact the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  You point to this vile whore (the Whore of Babylon in Revelation) and try to pretend that it's the Spotless Bride of Christ.  It's the false "ape" Church of the end times apostasy, and you are a partisan of it and are yourself Antichrist.

    Begone, Satan.
    What do you know? You'd have another couple thousand extra down thumbs (if they even mean anything more than worthless opinion) if it weren't for times of software manipulation that shielded you. Quite likely your down thumbs would come from the fact that you are so sure of yourself in your erroneous judgments, which is sedevacantist behavior, because they have the audacity to judge the pope, and from there the pride and confidence in personal judgment skyrockets. I say SVism is dangerous for this reason alone let alone others. I think it is an opinion one may cautiously hold, but we're a bunch of laymen, and considering the errors the clergy make, we have even less reason to have any confidence in our own opinions/judgments regarding the crisis in the church.


    Nope.

    Mr. Siscoe?


    I think he should stay. Though I'm not convinced his posts and position are free from error, having only read half of them so far, he seems to me to have a prudent balanced view worthy of discussion, as long as he doesn't truly go way out of line. How many others here would be banned if we banned everyone we strongly disagreed with?

    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #48 on: October 24, 2024, 08:42:02 PM »
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  • I never said obedince to the Pope rather than Christ, but what you are advocating is obedience to Christ, rather than the Pope, which is a grevious error.

    Christ and the Pope constitute one head of the Church.  Christ rules the Church though his visible head, and disobeying the visible head, is disobdience to Christ, unless the particualar command of the Pope is itself contrary to human or divine law (I'm still waiting for you to provide examples of the latter.  So far, its crickets.)  Here is how Pius XII explains it:


    Another consequence of the oneness of Christ and the Pope as the invisible and visible head of the Church is that those who separate from the Pope ipso facto separate themselves from the pope.  And it doesn't matter if the reason they separated from the Pope is because they were deceived by one of the countless specious arguments of the Sedvacantist heretics.  If one objectively separates from the pope, they objectively separate themselves from Christ (and his Church).


    Not instead, but because; and it's not because "I love" what he teaches, but because he is the vicar of Christ and visible head of the Church, and because Christ commands that I obey him.

    You are deceiving yourself if you think you are following Christ without following the pope, as Pius XII teaches


    Those words of Pius XII apply to you.  But I'm sure you won't care.  After all, those words were only spoken by the Pope, not by Christ, who alone you follow.


    You are doing the same thing that the hardline sedevacantists do - you make the pope your rule of Faith. You take the same extreme views as the hardline sedevacantists regarding the Pope, though in an opposite direction. It isn't prudent.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline M1913

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #49 on: October 24, 2024, 08:49:01 PM »
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  • I never said obedince to the Pope rather than Christ, but what you are advocating is obedience to Christ, rather than the Pope, which is a grevious error.

    Christ and the Pope constitute one head of the Church.  Christ rules the Church though his visible head, and disobeying the visible head, is disobdience to Christ, unless the particualar command of the Pope is itself contrary to human or divine law (I'm still waiting for you to provide examples of the latter.  So far, its crickets.)  Here is how Pius XII explains it:


    A consequence of Christ and the Pope constituting "only one head," is that those who separate from the Pope ipso facto separate themselves from Christ.  And it doesn't matter if the reason they separated from the Pope is because they were deceived by one of the countless specious arguments of the Sedvacantist heretics.  If one objectively separates from the pope, they objectively separate themselves from Christ (and his Church). And that reality is always manifest by their actual physical separation from the visible Church, which is what always happens when someone falls into Sedevacantism. They reject the Pope, and then immediately reject the Church.


    Not instead, but because; and it's not because "I love" what he teaches, but because he is the vicar of Christ and visible head of the Church, thereby consituting one head with Christ, and because Christ commands that I obey him.

    You are deceiving yourself if you think you are following Christ without following the pope, as Pius XII teaches


    Those words of Pius XII apply to you.  But I'm sure you won't care.  After all, they were only spoken by the Pope, not by Christ, who alone you follow.

    Before we proceed, can you clearly state that you reject and condemn Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and all its pomps? Do you recognize it as rooted in Luciferianism? And do you affirm that an unrepentant Freemason cannot be both a Freemason and a Catholic, as Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ incurs automatic excommunication under Church law?


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #50 on: October 24, 2024, 09:01:20 PM »
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  • You are deceiving yourself if you think you are following Christ without following the pope, as Pius XII teaches

    Those words of Pius XII apply to you.  But I'm sure you won't care.  After all, they were only spoken by the Pope, not by Christ, who alone you follow.

    I do not follow Christ alone. You are being dishonest. I follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. Not the teachings of pope Francis. You are free to make Pope Francis your rule of faith. If the Church had always taught that the pope is the rule of faith, then the Church would be a democracy where every Pope would be able to change the teachings of the church at will, just like many of the protestants believe. 

    Do you believe, as the modernists do, that truth changes?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #51 on: October 24, 2024, 09:05:20 PM »
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  • …The pope is the rule of faith because what he defines as de fide becomes an article of faith.…



    Nonsense. Even a true Pope is bound to Apostolic Tradition. Nobody, not even a true Pope, can "define" any novelty as "de fide."

    Your own "example" of the Immaculate Conception was no novelty. Mary's perpetual sinlessness was taught "always and everywhere." Pope Pius IX merely moved the Ordinary Magisterium of Mary's perpetual sinlessness into the realm of Extraordinary Magisterium—same teaching, merely emphasized and clarified.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #52 on: October 24, 2024, 09:13:46 PM »
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  • Of ourse I do.  All Freemasons, as well as those who publicly adhere to a "chapel" that is not part of their diocese, are exommunicated, provided the excommunication for Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is still in force (which I don't believe is the case). But if it is, I affirm it.

    Do you affirm that all schismatics, even if they don't think they are schismatics, incur ipso facto excommunication?

    What a word salad of ambiguity!

    You affirm "…if…" is no affirmation at all. It is merely window-dressing.

    Quote the Magisterium that states "adhering" to a non-diocesan chapel earns any kind of excommunication.

    Even before the "Vatican 2" revolution and occupation of the Church, most religious orders had chapels that were non-diocesan. Your silly declaration "excommunicated" centuries of Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, Redemptorists, and other orders who had their own non-diocesan chapels.  Your foolish claim cuts a wide swath of "excommunications."


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #53 on: October 24, 2024, 09:15:29 PM »
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  • But the Church teaches that one must submit and obey the Pope.  Do you accept that teaching of the Church and put it into practice?
    The charism of infallibility prevents the pope from erring when he defines a doctrine, ex cathedra. Since the pope only acts as the rule of faith when he defines, ex cathedra, a pope will never "change the teaching of the Church" when he acts as the rue of faith.  You see, when you know the Catholic faith, and when you understand what the terms mean (e.g., rule of faith), not only does it prevents you from falling into many errors, but it enables you to refute the specious arguments of heretics.


    No, do you?  For example, do you believe that the Pope and Christ constittute one head of the Church, and that they "walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth" (Pius XII)?


    Basically, you want us to make a Modernist pope our rule of faith. No thanks.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #54 on: October 24, 2024, 09:26:45 PM »
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  • Who said they could?  What I said is that the charism of infallibility prevents a pope from erring when he defines a doctrine.

    You said it:




    …the pope is the rule of faith.…



    You need to read and understand and submit to Pastor Aeternus regarding the very circuмscribed sphere of papal infallibility: 
    https://tinyurl.com/pwztps6k

    When you make such a gross generalization, "the [P]ope is the rule of [F]aith," while failing to state the limitations on a Pope, your gross generalization becomes a gross error.

    When Jorge is considered in light of the infallibly-defined limitations, he unseated himself long ago: https://archive.is/VZNJJ



    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #55 on: October 24, 2024, 09:29:13 PM »
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  • What a word salad of ambiguity!

    You affirm "…if…" is no affirmation at all. It is merely window-dressing.

    Quote the Magisterium that states "adhering" to a non-diocesan chapel earns any kind of excommunication.

    Even before the "Vatican 2" revolution and occupation of the Church, most religious orders had chapels that were non-diocesan. Your silly declaration "excommunicated" centuries of Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, Redemptorists, and other orders who had their own non-diocesan chapels.  Your foolish claim cuts a wide swath of "excommunications."
    ^^^ !!!

    It is remarkable how so many "newbie" accounts here dogmatically promulgate errors. Happily the stench of their errors quickly earn opprobrium.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #56 on: October 25, 2024, 04:02:36 AM »
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  • Which one of us still believes what the Church taught before Vatican II?  For example, which one of us still believes that the true Church - the "one, holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church" (Pius XII) -  is a visible, hierarchical, indefectible society with four marks, that consists of the bishops with the authority to teach, govern and sanctify - i.e., those appointed as heads of a legitimately established particular Church that is in union with local Church of Rome - and the faithful subject to them (Vehementur Nos, Pius X); and still believes that "those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit." (Pius XII)? 

    And which one of us now believes the Catholic Church "subsists" in hundreds of sects, separated from each other at least in governent, and that to be a "true Catholic" today one must separated from the visible organization that they admit was the true Church with four marks a mere 60 years ago?

    Only the land of make believe does the "Church" that subsists in hundreds of sects separated from each other in government constitute the True Catholic Church, while the visible organization that has existed since the time of the Apostles constitute a New Church.

    This was explained to you in the conversation you dropped out of in the other thread.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #57 on: October 25, 2024, 06:03:32 AM »
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  • I have to disagree with Fr. Chazal in regards to Bp. Tissier de Mallerais. I've come to regard him as more of an inward soul and his gifts were perhaps best suited in trying to stay where he was. Sure, Bp. Williamson was always the best speaker and the most approachable and his departure was thrust upon him but in the end I think you still need good people on the other side doing their best too. Hopefully he was able to make a fully conscious final offering of his life during the week he lingered. He seemed like the type to do just that. 


    If that was the case, I'm sure I'm not the only one who could use the extra graces. He might not have stood up to Bp. Fellay in a public way and he might have been too soft on the Romanitas of the whole thing, but he seemed to be a very serious and austere personality and I hope it translated to his translation. Requiescat in pace.


    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #58 on: October 25, 2024, 08:44:57 AM »
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  • Pay attention to what you are reading. I never said a pope could define a novelty. What I said is when he defines a doctrine he teaches infallibly; and when he defines a doctrine he acts as the rule of faith, because the doctine he defines becomes an object of divine faith.  But I seriously doubt you will even undersand what that means.
    Pay attention to what YOU are SAYING:




    …the pope is the rule of faith. …



    Even a true Pope is NOT "the rule of Faith."

    The Deposit of Faith is the rule of Faith.… period.

    If a true Pope teaches what has always and everywhere been taught, he is merely teaching the Deposit of Faith, the "ordinary Magisterium."

    If a true Pope makes an ex cathedra refinement explaining what has always and everywhere been taught, he is merely expounding upon the Deposit of Faith. he is not becoming "the rule of Faith."

    There are no other alternatives. By definition, anything moral or dogmatic other than Ordinary Magisterium and Extraordinary Magisterium is a novelty, hence outside the Deposit of Faith.

    Read and understand Pastor Aeternus. (linked previously by me) Pay attention especially to the constraints upon even a true Pope.

    Regarding Señor Jorge Bergoglio, he long ago unseated himself with his pertinacious тαℓмυdic doctrines (linked previously by me). He is therefore not a Pope, but an anti-Pope, to whom no Catholic owes obedience. Quite the contrary, practicing Catholics should pray for Jorge's speedy death in order to end his soul-killing anti-papacy.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Padre Chazal Speaks About Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais(SSPX)
    « Reply #59 on: October 25, 2024, 08:52:04 AM »
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  • I just check and the excommunication of Freemasons is still on the books, even though the new code doesn't explicitly mention them. It is implicit in the Code.  So, anyone who belongs to Freemasons, or a non-Catholic "chapel," is ipso facto excommunicated by the force of law.
    You said non-diocesan chapels were excommunicated. I spotlighted that falsehood.

    Instead of admitting your error, now you dishonestly pretend that "non-Catholic" chapels are excommunicated.

    You are a deceiver.