Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Marlelar on October 03, 2015, 12:16:56 AM
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I just noticed on their website that Our Lady of Sorrows calls itself a South Phoenix Catholic Community.
Funny, I thought we were a TRADITIONAL Catholic Church. I've only seen NO parishes refer to themselves as a "Catholic Community", never traditional churches.
It also says: "Our Lady of Sorrows is a Catholic community that offers a complete life centered around the Latin Mass and the traditions of the Faith."
I think "traditions OF the faith" is different from "THE traditional faith", which is actually what we do, well we used to anyway. :cry:
link (http://www.ourladyofsorrows.org/)
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Do not be surprised by the actions and words used in connection to the Phoenix Church. It's a "smile for the camera" operation, and the "community" mentioned in the description got ample representation on screen. It should be noticed that only 2 of the 5 priests stationed there were used for speaking purposes(the 2 youngest ones), and only 1 other for "stock footage" while offering Mass. To be sure, the building is very nice, but do not over-look the den of vipers that lies hidden in the threshold.
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Thank you for this post Marlelar as it certainly does sound just like NO speak.
This is a good example of 99% of the sermons at my chapel over the last three years or so. It's not like what they are saying is wrong, but what they are saying and the way they say it is perfectly acceptable to all NOers every where. All but the most tepid of condemnations of the NO have all but vanished.
It's as if they are trying to fool NOers into joining or something, I don't know how to explain it exactly but they are going about this in a way that demonstrates their true desire is for union with the conciliar church.
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Thank you for this post Marlelar as it certainly does sound just like NO speak.
This is a good example of 99% of the sermons at my chapel over the last three years or so. It's not like what they are saying is wrong, but what they are saying and the way they say it is perfectly acceptable to all NOers every where. All but the most tepid of condemnations of the NO have all but vanished.
It's as if they are trying to fool NOers into joining or something, I don't know how to explain it exactly but they are going about this in a way that demonstrates their true desire is for union with the conciliar church.
It's all part of the re-branding program. the whole aim is to trick N.O.'s catholics (little c) into thinking the SSPX is their place (which it, now, really is); while at the same time holding onto the Roman Catholics (aka traditionalists), making them think the SSPX is their place. the SSPX now has just what the Archbishop observed that the New Church had: a false religion, a false worship. false sacraments-- only the appearances of Catholicism.
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I live one mile away from the chapel and no longer attend.
The reason for they are being so appealing to the public is that they have put themselves into a $5 million hole that they are trying desperately get themselves out of. They started building when they had just over a half million promised but in cash. They justified it by saying the codes were about to change which would've made the cost prohibitive (as if it wasn't already). It reminded me of Luke 11:35.
Approximately half of the congregation that was attending in Sept 2012 when they started the new building either left or were expelled from the chapel.
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I live very close to this chapel and can provide some details.
It refers to itself as a "community" precisely because the chapel grounds houses a large school, a large retreat center, dormitories for the people on the retreats, and a large priory that services parts of Colorado, California, Arizona, and Texas.
The chapel lives the Faith as good as could possibly be. They had an ordination ceremony last week as well that was denounced by the Ordinary of the diocese. +Fellay went ahead irregardless. There has already been 3 babies baptized in the chapel as well. The church will attract many faithful from all over the Phoenix area and many people will be converted to the Faith.
All this knitpicking on the details is very disturbing and pharisee-like. Whats next? Is someone going to complain that the tabernacle veil the wrong color? Did Father mispronounce the "Asperges me" on Sunday? Or did they not capitalize the word "traditional" on their website?
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I live very close to this chapel and can provide some details.
It refers to itself as a "community" precisely because the chapel grounds houses a large school, a large retreat center, dormitories for the people on the retreats, and a large priory that services parts of Colorado, California, Arizona, and Texas.
The chapel lives the Faith as good as could possibly be. They had an ordination ceremony last week as well that was denounced by the Ordinary of the diocese. +Fellay went ahead irregardless. There has already been 3 babies baptized in the chapel as well. The church will attract many faithful from all over the Phoenix area and many people will be converted to the Faith.
All this knitpicking on the details is very disturbing and pharisee-like. Whats next? Is someone going to complain that the tabernacle veil the wrong color? Did Father mispronounce the "Asperges me" on Sunday? Or did they not capitalize the word "traditional" on their website?
They sure suckered you in.
Most of us with eyes to see know how to recognize Novus Ordo -- even when they have a "plausible alibi" when someone calls them on it.
You can't deny novus ordo flavor...even if they ARE technically a "community". That's beside the point. That isn't Trad language. Period. No one is pulling the wool over my eyes.
P.S. There's a bit of a story behind that "...and Texas". You pass over it, but you fail to acknowledge that the San Antonio chapel, started in 1975, used to be served by the Houston, TX priory for decades. Houston is 3 1/2 to 4 hours away BY CAR. Now the San Antonio chapel is being served out of Phoenix BY PLANE. Why?
Because Phoenix is "in the hole" for their new building, and they need to milk the San Antonio cash cow to help pay for it (NOTE: internally, a mission chapel does "pay" the priory for sending a priest. Money IS moved around in this way.) Bingo! Plus the monthly "Priory" second collection will now go to the Phoenix priory.
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I live very close to this chapel and can provide some details.
It refers to itself as a "community" precisely because the chapel grounds houses a large school, a large retreat center, dormitories for the people on the retreats, and a large priory that services parts of Colorado, California, Arizona, and Texas.
The chapel lives the Faith as good as could possibly be. They had an ordination ceremony last week as well that was denounced by the Ordinary of the diocese. +Fellay went ahead irregardless. There has already been 3 babies baptized in the chapel as well. The church will attract many faithful from all over the Phoenix area and many people will be converted to the Faith.
All this knitpicking on the details is very disturbing and pharisee-like. Whats next? Is someone going to complain that the tabernacle veil the wrong color? Did Father mispronounce the "Asperges me" on Sunday? Or did they not capitalize the word "traditional" on their website?
They sure suckered you in.
Most of us with eyes to see know how to recognize Novus Ordo -- even when they have a "plausible alibi" when someone calls them on it.
You can't deny novus ordo flavor...even if they ARE technically a "community". That's beside the point. That isn't Trad language. Period. No one is pulling the wool over my eyes.
P.S. There's a bit of a story behind that "...and Texas". You pass over it, but you fail to acknowledge that the San Antonio chapel, started in 1975, used to be served by the Houston, TX priory for decades. Houston is 3 1/2 to 4 hours away BY CAR. Now the San Antonio chapel is being served out of Phoenix BY PLANE. Why?
Because Phoenix is "in the hole" for their new building, and they need to milk the San Antonio cash cow to help pay for it (NOTE: internally, a mission chapel does "pay" the priory for sending a priest. Money IS moved around in this way.) Bingo! Plus the monthly "Priory" second collection will now go to the Phoenix priory.
Mr. Mathew,
Are you really criticizing the money handling of the OLS community after all the threads that have popped up in recent weeks regarding the embezzlement accusations of resistance chapels?
Irregardless, yes, I know Menzingen has proven itself illegitimate in handling relations with Rome and keeping alive the vision of Mons. Lefevbre. However, arguing about these tiny details of chapels or priories is pitiful and counterproductive. If you attend the chapel and hear Fr. Frank speak, you'll now that he a holy man that has his days full with spiritual direction, running a school and a retreat center.
Also, the Houston priory still exists and supplies priests for Texas. However, there are times that OLS sends priests to El Paso in the western part of Texas. This has nothing to do with finances, but just convenience.
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If you attend the chapel and hear Fr. Frank speak,
I did literally laugh out loud when reading this conversation about how N.O. or not this priory is and then hearing you refer to your priest by his first name.
:laugh2:
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If you attend the chapel and hear Fr. Frank speak, you'll now that he a holy man that has his days full with spiritual direction, running a school and a retreat center.
You have got to be kidding me. Truth really is stranger than fiction. You can't make this stuff up.
FR. FRANK? Did I hear you correctly?
You do realize, of course, that in the Novus Ordo they refer to their priests by their first name "Fr. James", "Fr. Frank", "Fr. John" and so forth. In the Traditional world, we use the traditional, more formal mode of addressing them "Fr. Smith", "Fr. McDaniels", "Fr. O'Callaghan" and so forth.
The fact that you are calling him "Fr. Frank" -- the neo-SSPX is really making some progress on their way to the Novus Ordo!
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Not all N.O. priests go by their first name. In fact, most of the ones I knew did not. But, it is certainly a stereotype associated with the Novus Ordo, hence why I thought it funny.
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Mr. Mathew,
Are you really criticizing the money handling of the OLS community after all the threads that have popped up in recent weeks regarding the embezzlement accusations of resistance chapels?
1. It's Matthew with 2 T's, like the Evangelist.
2. Embezzlement of resistance chapels? I don't know what the heck you're talking about.
3. Am I? You bet, sir. The only thing you can point to is a loan dispute between Fr. Voigt and Pablo. But even if there were some wrongdoing involved there, "Two wrongs don't make a right". And besides, I'm not a supporter of Fr. Pfeiffer or his group (Our Lady of Mount Carmel, or SSPX Marian Corps) anyhow, so I'm not even being hypocritical here. The Resistance is many times larger than Fr. Pfeiffer's small group of 2 priests.
A group as large and professional as the neo-SSPX (tm) doesn't do anything randomly or by accident.
Before this year, it was unheard of for the San Antonio chapel to be serviced by a priory outside of Texas, like we're some kind of backwoods Alaskan mission or something. The San Antonio chapel has about 200 - 250 parishioners. And we have a priory less than 4 hour drive from here, in Dickinson, TX (right outside Houston).
Just look on the map at how close Houston is (a few inches to the right), and how far away Phoenix is. Convenience has NOTHING to do with it. It's much more expensive (total) for them to fly a priest in every week, rather than drive a few hours. But for the Phoenix chapel, which is reimbursed, it is advantageous. The real losers in this deal are the parishioners at St. Joseph's Chapel in San Antonio. It's tough to save up money for the new chapel they need when they're forking out money for unnecessary plane tickets every week.
In my opinion, they should give up on the SSPX as I have, and place their destiny back in God's (and their own) hands.
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Not all N.O. priests go by their first name. In fact, most of the ones I knew did not. But, it is certainly a stereotype associated with the Novus Ordo, hence why I thought it funny.
There's also a stereotype that Germans make good engineers, and that black people like basketball.
Both stereotypes happen to be true.
It's not just a stereotype. I've heard it with my own ears plenty of times.
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my my my I find it so interesting that up until the new church (built with the Novus Ordo stamp of approval )in Phoenix was finished there was almost no mention of our parish(I went way back in the threads to see) and almost everyone with some thing negative to say including myself is a parishioner or former parishioner
........guess that sterile ,empty echo chamber has everyone in a bad mood
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haha well, like everything else, that, too, has a story.
I started attending SSPX chapels after attending Maronite churches my entire life. In the maronite church, when a Bishop ordains a new priest, he renames the priest with a new name. It's traditional to call a priest by his first name in the Maronite church, like Father Jamil, etc.
It's a 50 year old habit that is taking me a while to break.
I'll wait a few days until someone starts another thread and comments on how, perhaps, the altar veil isn't the correct color. That is how narrowminded some people have become on this forum.
Fr. Frank RICCOMINI is an excellent, holy priest that, despite the large size of his flock, makes great effort to speak to every adult and child often. His days start at 6AM and end around 11PM. He has many many duties every day and he is forming souls to be Saints, nothing more, nothing less. He is a great role model for the boys in the chapel and is the reason why so many of our young men are attracted to the priesthood: they see a man as courageous and steadfast in the faith as Fr. Riccomini.
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The church will attract many faithful from all over the Phoenix area and many people will be converted to the Faith.
All this knitpicking on the details is very disturbing and pharisee-like. Whats next? Is someone going to complain that the tabernacle veil the wrong color? Did Father mispronounce the "Asperges me" on Sunday? Or did they not capitalize the word "traditional" on their website?
You sure have drunk the kool-aid on this haven't you ?
Do you thing because I attack the new church I am attacking the Mass ? Father ? the Society ? ...nothing could be further from the truth
That church is a LIE. They lied to build it ,they lied about its interior ,they lied about it being dedicated to Our Lady of Sorrows ..I could go and on about their lies
Ask me to be specific I no problem with it but you really need to seek the truth, if not here then just ask around in the hall on Sunday ..people are angry and heartbroken
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Fr. Frank RICCOMINI is an excellent, holy priest that, despite the large size of his flock, makes great effort to speak to every adult and child often. His days start at 6AM and end around 11PM. He has many many duties every day and he is forming souls to be Saints, nothing more, nothing less. He is a great role model for the boys in the chapel and is the reason why so many of our young men are attracted to the priesthood: they see a man as courageous and steadfast in the faith as Fr. Riccomini.
I could not agree with you more Fr. R. is a wonderful priest and I might ad one of the hardest working people I have ever met .With him I have no complaint
So how can I attack the church they just built and not Fr.R. or the Society ?
Because I wont point fingers or call out blame .I don't know who is to blame for the empty echo chamber I only know what I see
BTW beautiful rosary procession today, cant wait to see the photos
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I have a vague memory of Father Riccomini saying that they were "encouraged" to build a bigger church than was originally planned. Not sure who did the encouraging, Fellay? the District Superior at the time?
Does anyone else remember this?
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I have a vague memory of Father Riccomini saying that they were "encouraged" to build a bigger church than was originally planned. Not sure who did the encouraging, Fellay? the District Superior at the time?
Does anyone else remember this?
Okay, so I just compiled all the correspondence I ever received about the project from 2010 and, by the looks, it looks like they stuck pretty close to the original design plans. The only difference I see is that they originally planned for a much more elaborate facade.
I also hear that the half-dome (the semi-dome above the alter) will be painted in the future. Other additions that are on the way are stained glass windows. Some will be recycled from other parishes across the country and some will be new. There is also a large statue of the Pieta will be added in the church courtyard. All of these additions have already been payed for or donated. With the help of the District office, most of the funds have already been collected.
Part of the old church will be converted to classroom use for the school. The majority will be remodeled into a performing arts and lecture center to be used by the school for graduations, theatrical performances, cultural events, conferences (like the Angeles Press conference), etc. The majority of the funds for this project have also already been collected.
Per city rules, they have to expand their current parking because they built a new structure. The remodeling of the old church will provide for more parking to comply with the city rules.
I have attached pictures of the design renditions from 2010 and the current structure.
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So in all your "correspondence" did you get any answers about the interior of the new church ?
Any "correspondence" on what is to become of the statue of Our Lady of Sorrows in the old church
Have you asked to see the original interior plans painted by the same person at the same time as the exterior plans ? When you do try to tell us again
it looks like they stuck pretty close to the original design plans.
Oh and BTW the original exterior called for 7 windows in the dome behind the altar for future stained glass windows depicting Our Lady's 7 Sorrows ...any opinion on why that was changed to 6 ? It sure wasent cost the 6 windows as a whole due to size cost more
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I'll wait a few days until someone starts another thread and comments on how, perhaps, the altar veil isn't the correct color. That is how narrowminded some people have become on this forum.
Fr. Frank RICCOMINI is an excellent, holy priest that, despite the large size of his flock, makes great effort to speak to every adult and child often. His days start at 6AM and end around 11PM. He has many many duties every day and he is forming souls to be Saints, nothing more, nothing less. He is a great role model for the boys in the chapel and is the reason why so many of our young men are attracted to the priesthood: they see a man as courageous and steadfast in the faith as Fr. Riccomini.
1. That kind of nitpicking isn't seen on CathInfo, and anyone who has read more than a few of my posts would know that.
Anyone out there -- what do I think of dogmatic home aloners? Picky trads who create needless division over stupid things like a priest's accent, rubrics (when to stand and kneel), choice of altar Missal (1962 vs 1955), whether or not the current Pope is mentioned in the Canon, etc.?
In fact, the Matthew haters club usually likes to call me "Trad-cuмenical" since I deal with the various Trad groups like Pope Francis deals with the various false religions. But you see the difference? the various Trad groups are all CATHOLIC, so why wouldn't I keep my arms open to all of them? What Pope Francis is doing, with his false ecuмenism, is clearly wrong, since they are heretics and infidels. But unless you're drinking the Dimond Bros kool-aid, you can't really believe that about the various competing Traditional organizations and chapels. Am I Trad-cuмenical? You bet! I wear that charge as a badge of honor. It means I'm not sectarian or schismatic.
I am a Traditional Catholic, which involves a few core beliefs:
A) Catholics have a right to doubt-free priests and sacraments.
B) The Novus Ordo Mass is proven to be destructive of the Faith, and the New Rite of Ordination is doubtful
C) We can and should go outside the official authority structures of the Conciliar Church to pursue A), because "Salus Animarum Suprema Lex"
And a few behaviors, or a short checklist EVERY TRAD USES when evaluating a place for Mass:
A) Was the priest properly ordained by a valid bishop?
B) Was the priest properly trained in a seminary, and is he completely against Vatican II as an infiltration of malicious men (Modernists/Freemasons) into the Church?
C) Is he saying the Tridentine Mass, i.e., the Catholic Mass as it existed before Vatican II?
-- End of list --
You might add D) Does this chapel escape the charge of being a virtual cult (is there a schismatic or sectarian spirit towards other Trad chapels?)
But
As you can see, the list is quite simple. Pretty much every Mass worth attending would pass this short test.
2. This isn't about the personal holiness or dedication of individual priests, like Fr. Riccomini. It is beside the point. What if this were 1970, and we read an exchange between a few Catholics in 1970 discussing their priests. How would we Trad Catholics today respond, with the knowledge of history? We'd be saying, "Good luck man -- everything around that priest is going to decay; it won't matter if he's good, bad, or in-between." We know how it turned out.
Well, in this case the wise among us know where it's headed. It's moving a new direction with the force of a train. "Good priests" like Fr. Riccomini will either have to bail at some point, or get crushed underneath if they even TRY to slow it down. Or they'll just ride that train all the way to Modernist Rome. Those are the options.
Likewise, it's the SSPX that's the problem. The organization, as an organization, has lost it. They have fundamentally changed their attitude towards Vatican II, and the evidence is anywhere you care to look. There is literally too much to mention. And any things "traditional" they utter are only spoken to deceive the more serious Traditional Catholics who are still attending their chapels. There is a new orientation, a new code of behavior, and it all hangs together as a cohesive whole.
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what a bunch of bunk. there is no way that approximately 1/2 of all the people left this parish. You need to get real on this. Nor are they $5,000,000 the hole. Stop the misinformation, please!
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what a bunch of bunk. there is no way that approximately 1/2 of all the people left this parish. You need to get real on this. Nor are they $5,000,000 the hole. Stop the misinformation, please!
you are right they are 2.5 mil in the hole . Think it is worth it ? did you get what you paid for ? ...Not by a long shot
speaking of people .where were they all today? Maybe 1/2 have not left but they sure are leavING 2nd mass was not even close to the numbers from the old church AND WE HAD 3 MASSES THEN
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remember this
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Sorry about that last post (remember this). Tried to download a picture but it didn't take. You know maybe I am all wrong about the new church
I have tried myself to talk to Fr.R but to no avail Even when you can get past his usher/bodyguards he just wont answer any questions directly