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Author Topic: ORDINATION VALIDATION  (Read 304814 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: ORDINATION VALIDATION
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2026, 09:51:54 PM »
Hey Matthew- do you have information on Father Zingrang's conditional ordination?
I have conflicting information and want to validate.
https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/sspx-transfers-2015/

No, I don't unfortunately. 

I do know that Fr. Zigrang was ordained in 1978, so it was much closer to "saner times", when bishops had correct training, etc.
Of course that means nothing to any "new Rite of Ordination is invalid 100% of the time" purist -- but I'm not interested in getting into that right now.
Just wanted to throw that out there.

Re: ORDINATION VALIDATION
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2026, 12:24:10 PM »
It is true that Mathew was excommunicated for his refusal of submission to the Holy See (again, canonical, not doctrinal dispute) ... but that would be probably the closest thing you can get to something that might be called "pure schism", where's it's schism only without any doctrinal 
I knew there was something wrong with your siding with the old romans


Re: ORDINATION VALIDATION
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2026, 12:26:36 PM »
Arnold hαɾɾιs Mathew started calling himself Old "Roman" Catholic when he separated from Utrecht.  He was simply continuing Old Catholicism which was condemned by the Church.  In fact, Mathew was excommunicated by Pope St. Pius X in 1911.

Here is his declaration of "autonomy" from Utrecht:  https://www.ssmercy.org/declaration-of-autonomy.html

These "Old Romans" all come from this man.

While they may have valid orders, Bp.  Meikle is a married man, and many of their priests and bishops are also married.  They also celebrate the Traditional Mass in both the vernacular and English.  Also, they claim jurisdiction by setting themselves up as ordinaries of dioceses.  None of this is in any way traditional.

Until they stop ordaining and consecrating married men, stop celebrating Mass in the vernacular, and stop setting up pseudo-dioceses, they should not be considered traditional Catholics and should be avoided for the schismatics they are. 

Re: ORDINATION VALIDATION
« Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 01:57:59 PM »
Some points of information ref the discussion on +Mathew and the Old Romans



1) ✠Arnold hαɾɾιs Mathew was not excommunicated for refusing submission to the Holy See, but for having been consecrated and subsequently for consecrating two other Catholic priests - this was specifically referred to in the decree by Pius X. What we can infer from this is:
   a) the episcopal consecrations were regarded valid though irregular;
   b) they were ordained Catholic priests;
   c) which is why they were excommunicated.
2) In point of fact, the decree of excommunication came in response to +Mathew notifying the Holy See of the consecrations.


3) The term "Old Roman" Catholic was first used by the Dutch populace to distinguish the Old Catholics from the new Catholic hierarchy created by Pius IX in 1853 - "Roman" was dropped from the appellation with the creation of the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht - which is why ✠Mathew put it back after declaring independence from the Union to reflect the older orthodox theological and ecclesiological polity i.e. desiring reconciliation with Rome.


4) ✠Mathew's Declaration of Independence from the Utrecht See was just that i.e. separating from Utrecht. The declaration is not formally heretical, and not explicitly anti-Roman though it was written post excommunication, ✠Mathew would seek repeatedly to reconcile with Rome before he died.


5) In the 1970's Old Romans collaborated with Traditionalists like the foundling CMRI and the early SSPX in America, and elsewhere facilitated the provision and continuation of Traditional Latin Masses. A fact graciously acknowledged by ✠Tissier de Mallerais when meeting an Old Roman bishop in Chicago.


6) Historically, in the early twentieth century, the movement primarily attracted High Church convert Anglicans seeking Catholic continuity. However by the later twentieth and in the present century, its adherents are drawn predominantly from Catholics disaffected by the doctrinal, liturgical, and disciplinary developments associated with the post-conciliar and synodal Church.


Of the orthodox Old Roman bodies, the Old Roman Apostolate (led by ✠Jerome Lloyd, Titular Archbishop of Selsey), maintains a conservative clerical discipline, not ordinarily ordaining married men (at present, it has none within its ranks). The liturgical life of the ORA is decisively traditional pre-55 rubrics. The sacred liturgies are offered principally in Latin, with the vernacular admitted only sparingly within pastoral offices. Episcopal consecrations and priestly ordinations are conducted according to the Tridentine Pontificale Romanum, in Latin exclusively. In its ecclesiological posture, the Old Roman Apostolate does not assert territorial jurisdiction. Its bishops, though consecrated to titular sees, hold them with the explicit understanding that they would relinquish such titles upon reconciliation with the Holy See. The ORA has missions in the USA (Chicago), UK (London), Europe (France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Slovakia, Hungary) Africa (Cameroon) and Asia (Australia, Philippines). The Old Roman Apostolate's primary websites are OldRoman.org Nuntiatoria.org Selsey.org and YouTube/OldRomanTV.


The See of Caer Glow (website) likewise maintains a conservative polity and Tridentine liturgical praxis, primarily operating in Florida, USA. Media presence by ✠David Meikle substack and Fr Martin Navarro Ob.S.A. X YouTube/RestlessHeartMedia.

Incidentally, both apostolates operated sacramentally throughout COVID.


Three men, each formally excommunicated—whether later vindicated or not—yet widely vilified, emerge, perhaps unwittingly, as unlikely instruments in the preservation of sacramental validity and the transmission of Catholic truth. Archbishops ✠Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục and ✠Marcel Lefebvre are more familiar figures, readily associated with the Traditional Catholic movement. Yet preceding them, and seemingly without deliberate design, ✠Arnold hαɾɾιs Mathew also played a role in sustaining and perpetuating the traditional Catholic Faith and sacramental life.



Such are the times; such the character of the crisis through which the Church has passed. Providence writes straight with crooked lines. For, as the Gospel attests, “quia non erit impossibile apud Deum omne verbum” (cf. Gospel of Luke 1:37).