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Author Topic: ORDINATION VALIDATION  (Read 301057 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: ORDINATION VALIDATION
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2025, 06:29:45 PM »
One group of trad clergy with solidly valid orders are the Old Romans. They exist in several distinct groups, the most prominent being these four: the Old Roman Apostolate, the See of Caer Glow, the See of Terra Nova, and the Old Roman Catholic Church - Latin Rite.

Unfortunately, the Old Romans too often are confused with the schismatic and heretical Old Catholics because of similarity in name and both Old Romans and Old Catholics derive their Holy Orders through the ancient See of Utrecht.

Yes, I only recently learned about them (under a year or so ago), having incorrectly confused them with Old Catholics.  I also then found that the Daniel Quilter Brown from whom Shuckhardt had received Holy Orders was in fact an Old Roman Catholic, not an Old Catholic, as SSPV and others have charged CMRI with ... but I suspect they just didn't know.  Regardless, of course, receiving Orders even from schismatics/heretics does not make you a schismatic and/or heretic.  It's not contagious.  You get suspended, but then nearl all non-Ecclesia-Dei Traditional groups are also in a state of canonical irregularity, so there's no difference now.

I understood that the Old Roman Catholics had just about terminated operations, thinking there was no further need for them ... but then Vatican II happened, and they retained the Tridentine Mass.  I believe it was some high-level SSPX priest who credited them with keeping Traditional Catholicism alive in the US until the SSPX could get here.

Offline ElwinRansom1970

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Re: ORDINATION VALIDATION
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2025, 06:33:22 AM »
I understood that the Old Roman Catholics had just about terminated operations, thinking there was no further need for them ... but then Vatican II happened, and they retained the Tridentine Mass.

Yes, this is correct. Archbishop Bernard Mary Williams, the successor in Great Britain to Archbishop Arnold hαɾɾιs Mathew as leader of the Old Romans, came to believe by the 1940s that the Old Romans had no reason to exist any longer because circuмstances that had necessitated the existence of Old Romans had ceased, that ordinations would cease and all Old Roman congregations would be rolled back into the official Roman Catholic Church. 

However, the ascendency of Liberalism and Modernism with Vatican II obliged the Old Romans to alter course and resume a full apostolate for Tradition.

The history of the Old Romans is a bit different in North America. After +Bernard Mary died in the 1950s, Old Romans divided into two different groups in Great Britain. However, the North American Old Romans trace themselves through Archbishop Carfora and Archbishop Landes Berghes, the latter having been sent to the USA early during the First World War by +Mathews because +Landes Berghes was an Austrian national and, thus, enemy national in Britain during the Great War. Most North American Old Romans receive their Holy Orders from +Mathew (who was consecrated by Archbishop Gul of Utrecht) through +Landes Berghes and +Carfora, whereas most UK and continental Old Romans receive their Holy Orders from +Mathew through Archbishop Shelley and Archbishop Paget King. Although, there is plenty of crossover in the ordination lines, which tend to be short and clear, unlike so many odd-ball "Orthodox Old Brazilian Catholic Apostolic United Chaldean Church of the National Celtic Ancient Eastern Templars" groups of dubious orthodoxy and even more dubious validity in Orders and sacraments.


Offline ElwinRansom1970

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Re: ORDINATION VALIDATION
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2025, 07:15:29 AM »
One group of trad clergy with solidly valid orders are the Old Romans. They exist in several distinct groups, the most prominent being these four: the Old Roman Apostolate, the See of Caer Glow, the See of Terra Nova, and the Old Roman Catholic Church - Latin Rite.

Unfortunately, the Old Romans too often are confused with the schismatic and heretical Old Catholics because of similarity in name and both Old Romans and Old Catholics derive their Holy Orders through the ancient See of Utrecht.
https://bishopmeikle.com/


https://oblatesofstaugustine.org/

Re: ORDINATION VALIDATION
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2025, 01:04:32 PM »
Arnold hαɾɾιs Mathew started calling himself Old "Roman" Catholic when he separated from Utrecht.  He was simply continuing Old Catholicism which was condemned by the Church.  In fact, Mathew was excommunicated by Pope St. Pius X in 1911.

Here is his declaration of "autonomy" from Utrecht:  https://www.ssmercy.org/declaration-of-autonomy.html

These "Old Romans" all come from this man.

While they may have valid orders, Bp.  Meikle is a married man, and many of their priests and bishops are also married.  They also celebrate the Traditional Mass in both the vernacular and English.  Also, they claim jurisdiction by setting themselves up as ordinaries of dioceses.  None of this is in any way traditional.

Until they stop ordaining and consecrating married men, stop celebrating Mass in the vernacular, and stop setting up pseudo-dioceses, they should not be considered traditional Catholics and should be avoided for the schismatics they are.   


Re: ORDINATION VALIDATION
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2025, 01:53:14 PM »
Arnold hαɾɾιs Mathew started calling himself Old "Roman" Catholic when he separated from Utrecht.  He was simply continuing Old Catholicism which was condemned by the Church.  In fact, Mathew was excommunicated by Pope St. Pius X in 1911.

Here is his declaration of "autonomy" from Utrecht:  https://www.ssmercy.org/declaration-of-autonomy.html

These "Old Romans" all come from this man.

While they may have valid orders, Bp.  Meikle is a married man, and many of their priests and bishops are also married.  They also celebrate the Traditional Mass in both the vernacular and English.  Also, they claim jurisdiction by setting themselves up as ordinaries of dioceses.  None of this is in any way traditional.

Until they stop ordaining and consecrating married men, stop celebrating Mass in the vernacular, and stop setting up pseudo-dioceses, they should not be considered traditional Catholics and should be avoided for the schismatics they are. 
Sorry, that should be vernacular and Latin.