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Author Topic: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)  (Read 7004 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2023, 10:31:07 PM »
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  • Above was a quote concerning the '69.  Now you tell me the genuflections were reduced in '67.  I really wish I had asked the Archbishop for specifics regarding the '65.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #61 on: June 28, 2023, 11:38:22 PM »
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  • "Our liturgy is the school of our Faith.  And it is the first school of our Faith for all people.  I was in Africa as a missionary and bishop during 30 years.  And I know that the liturgy was the best school of our Faith for the people.  They cannot read.  They have no pictures, nothing.  But they can see what the priest does.  They can see when the priest adores the Body and the Blood of Jesus Christ, and they know that Jesus Christ is really present on the altar by the attitude of the priest.  They know it.  That is very important."

    Fr. Schmidberger-

    “Meanwhile, the objection is raised that the faithful would thus not understand the Sacred Action. In response to these objections, we answer the Holy Mass is not in the first place instruction or catechesis, but sacrifice offered to God. The content of an action is understood much more in its outward gestures than by the words used. Besides, the Holy Mass concerns an unfathomable mystery of the Faith that will never be grasped fully by our sense of reason.”

    https://sspx.org/en/theology-and-spirituality-mass 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #62 on: June 29, 2023, 09:38:55 PM »
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  • Fr. Schmidberger-

    “Meanwhile, the objection is raised that the faithful would thus not understand the Sacred Action. In response to these objections, we answer the Holy Mass is not in the first place instruction or catechesis, but sacrifice offered to God. The content of an action is understood much more in its outward gestures than by the words used. Besides, the Holy Mass concerns an unfathomable mystery of the Faith that will never be grasped fully by our sense of reason.”

    https://sspx.org/en/theology-and-spirituality-mass
    "In the first place".  Correct.  The educational aspect must not be exaggerated nor despised.  It has it's importance.


    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #63 on: June 29, 2023, 09:45:38 PM »
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  • I don't want to put words in your mouth.  I get the sense that you are suggesting the Archbishop insisted on the '62 over older books, citing St. Thomas' principle, but contradicted himself by refusing the '65 for no good reason.  Either he was a hypocrite (a serious accusation!), or somehow it hadn't occurred to him.  Just because you and I don't know his specific objections to the '65 doesn't mean he didn't have any.  He has amply proved that his decisions were made after serious deliberation and prayer.

    Anyway, all of this tangent we've gone off on is a discussion whether St. Thomas would have us use the '62 or the '65.  The older books are out of the question according to his principle.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #64 on: June 29, 2023, 09:49:03 PM »
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  • Judging what is happening with the neoSSPX there is cause for concern. Slow death by increments. When I am in doubt I turn to clerics whom I trust to answer queries and dispel erroneous notions.the 1962 is all most of have, so that is what we use.
    Correlation does not mean causation.  The Church has been on the retreat for centuries while every priest was using the old books.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #65 on: June 29, 2023, 09:58:49 PM »
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  • The older books are out of the question according to his principle.

    The older books are compulsory, according to his principle.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #66 on: June 29, 2023, 11:08:45 PM »
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  • I am confronted with a choice:

    The '62 is not a danger for the Faith.
    - Archbishop Lefebvre, student of Fr. LeFloch, Doctor of Philosophy, Doctor of Theology, God's chosen instrument to found and lead the numerically most significant organization of Catholic resistance in the Crisis of the Church

    -or-

    The '62 is a danger for the Faith.
    - Sean Johnson

    Nothing personal, please understand.  You have an excellent grasp of many issues.  Your contributions around here are generally magnificent.  I often find myself rooting for you from behind the keyboard.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #67 on: June 30, 2023, 02:21:00 AM »
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  • I am confronted with a choice:

    The '62 is not a danger for the Faith.
    - Archbishop Lefebvre, student of Fr. LeFloch, Doctor of Philosophy, Doctor of Theology, God's chosen instrument to found and lead the numerically most significant organization of Catholic resistance in the Crisis of the Church

    -or-

    The '62 is a danger for the Faith.
    - Sean Johnson

    Nothing personal, please understand.  You have an excellent grasp of many issues.  Your contributions around here are generally magnificent.  I often find myself rooting for you from behind the keyboard.
    Yes, it's obvious to everyone you can't separate the man from the argument. You believe in man and man only. The human respect is palpable.

    ------

    Fr. Cekada said in the early days they had weird hybrid rites which indicates Lefebvre didn't do a thorough examination of the missals and decide which one was best but wanted a more diplomatic solution.

    Even today the priests modify the '62 during Holy Week. If you have to change it, why are you using it? Ridiculous.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #68 on: June 30, 2023, 06:46:26 AM »
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  • I am confronted with a choice:

    The '62 is not a danger for the Faith.
    - Archbishop Lefebvre, student of Fr. LeFloch, Doctor of Philosophy, Doctor of Theology, God's chosen instrument to found and lead the numerically most significant organization of Catholic resistance in the Crisis of the Church

    -or-

    The '62 is a danger for the Faith.
    - Sean Johnson

    Nothing personal, please understand.  You have an excellent grasp of many issues.  Your contributions around here are generally magnificent.  I often find myself rooting for you from behind the keyboard.

    Hello NIFH-

    I do not take your critiques personally, so no worries there, and I appreciate you taking the time to say so.  I would like to clarify a few points, however, simply in the interest of making sure I am properly understood (rightly or wrongly):

    Firstly, let me state that I share your admiration for Archbishop Lefebvre.  Like you, it is clear to me that God did in fact use him to "keep the pilot light burning," so to speak.  And if I may go even further, considering the enormity of what he accomplished, moreso than any other (i.e., forming a resistance to the deliberate extinction of Tradition), I believe he may posssibly be the greatest Churchman since the days of Athanasius...and possibly ever.

    But in the domain of liturgy, I believe he could have made a better choice, and it is clear to me from some of the statements you yourself havee quoted, that his broad ranging perspicacity either did not extend to the liturgical issue (i.e., he appears to have beeen oblivoius to the per-conciliar destruction of the liturgy already in process by the time of Vatican II), or he chose to ignore it for political reasons, and advanced untenable arguments in defense of that political decision (e.g., "the Pian Holy Week was not a preparation for the Novus Ordo;" or "The people on the liturgical commisssion were not the same as those who made the ovus Ordo;" etc.).

    The truth of the matter is, one does not need to be a doctor off theology, or philosophy, or even ever have spent a day in a seminary, to assess the significance and gravity of the changes ushered in by Pius XII.  

    One only needs to be an objective historian.

    Was it not Fr. Carlo Braga (Collaborator of Bugnini, and Secretary of Consilium under Paul VI) who acknowledged that the Holy Week "reforms" were "the head of a battering ram which pierced the fortress of our hitherto static liturgy?"

    Here is what I am willing to concede:

    On most days and/or Sundays of the year, the differences between, say, the 1950 missal and the 1962 missal are imperceptible (which is not to say minor, for example, is adding St. Joseph to the Canon a "minor" change?), and I myself attend the 1962 missal -more by necessity than by preference- which I could not do, were it in se an objective danger to the faith.

    But I do not atend the Pian Novus Ordo of Holy Week, and this brings us to the heart of the matter:

    The 1962 Misssal naturally uses the 1956 Novus Ordo of Holy Week. 

    But prescinding from the argument about whether those changes were great or small (you already know my opinion on that), the 1962 transitional misssal did not occur in a liturgical vaccuum, but was the spearhead of far wider reaching liturgical and related disciplinary "reforms," such as:

    1) Overturning liturgical fasting laws (1957);
    2) Permitting evening Masses (1953);
    3) Eliminating most of the Octaves (1955);
    4) Eliminating the proper Last Gospels (1955);
    5) Various rubrical changes, such as permitting incense without deacon/subdeacon; bowing to the book instead of bowing the the Crucifix; eliminating the 2nd confiteor; etc, etc;
    6) Permitting laymen (i.e., "capable readers") to read certain readings;
    7) Permitting the congregation to recite prayers audibly (1958);
    8) The priest quietly "duplicating" the Gospel, Epistle, Reproaches, Holy Saturdayprophcies, etc;
    9) When Holy Communion should be distributed;
    10) Modification of the ancient Canon (1962).

    Many more "reforms" could be listed, but the point is this: Everything in that list also applies to the 1962 Missal; it does not stand independent of thm, but is in fact a product of them.

    So back to +Lefebvre's use of St. Thomas Aquinas's principle (i.e., only when the faith is in danger): It seems clear to me that any application of that principle will depend upon one's apprehension of that "danger."

    And it seems equally obvious to me that, based upon +Lefebvre's comments, he was largely oblivious of the "battering ram" (to use Fr. Braga's description) which had already been destroying and reconstituting the Catholic liturgy (and accessory liturgical praxis) for more than a decade prior to 1962.  In truth, one would have to go all the way bacy to the novelty of the dialogue Masss, but that is a digression for another time.

    For this reason, I could easily concede Aquinas's principle, and simply acknowledge that +Lefebvre wrongly applied it, for lack of a broader historical view of all that the "reforms" entailed.

    Alternately, I could deny that Aquinas's principle even applies to the 1962 Missal, because as some (e.g., Fr. Cekada) have observed, a transitional missal lacks the stability required to bind.  All the more so when it is already abrogated ex post facto.

    All of this is to say that I am not persuaded, as you are, that the1962 is obligatory, nor that just because +Lefebvre was God's primary instrumet to combat modernism, that we must be wedded to his every decision, nor that one must match or exeeed his clerical credentials and bona fides.  One need only be an historian of the liturgical movement, and view the 1962 missal within that context.  To +Lefebvre's everlasting glory, he gets the credit for putting the brakes on the revolution.  But there's no convincing reason why we can't or shouldn't back the car up a bit.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #69 on: June 30, 2023, 08:27:57 AM »
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  • Quote
    Just because you and I don't know his specific objections to the '65
    Any objective observer can know the problems with the '65 missal.  We don't need +ABL to tell us everything about our Faith.  Plenty of Trad priests in the 60s knew the 65 missal was garbage and avoided it accordingly.  That why, when +ABL waffled on the topic, there was pressure.  Because many, many Trads had already rejected it.

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #70 on: June 30, 2023, 08:54:37 AM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre was in Africa when the Pian Holy Week came out.  He was there from 1948-1959 and REALLY helped the Catholic Faith to grow there.

    If I had to guess...  He was more focused on being a missionary than on the changing liturgies.  The 1962 Missal came out only three years after he was back in Europe.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #71 on: June 30, 2023, 09:22:33 AM »
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  • But prescinding from the argument about whether those changes were great or small (you already know my opinion on that), the 1962 transitional misssal did not occur in a liturgical vaccuum, but was the spearhead of far wider reaching liturgical and related disciplinary "reforms," such as:

    1) Overturning liturgical fasting laws (1957);
    2) Permitting evening Masses (1953);
    3) Eliminating most of the Octaves (1955);
    4) Eliminating the proper Last Gospels (1955);
    5) Various rubrical changes, such as permitting incense without deacon/subdeacon; bowing to the book instead of bowing the the Crucifix; eliminating the 2nd confiteor; etc, etc;
    6) Permitting laymen (i.e., "capable readers") to read certain readings;
    7) Permitting the congregation to recite prayers audibly (1958);
    8) The priest quietly "duplicating" the Gospel, Epistle, Reproaches, Holy Saturdayprophcies, etc;
    9) When Holy Communion should be distributed;
    10) Modification of the ancient Canon (1962).

    Many more "reforms" could be listed...

    11) The re-ranking of feasts;
    12) The elimination of ancient and/or major feasts (e.g., the Vigil of Pentecost);
    13) The abrogation of certain vestments (e.g., Broadstoles and folded chasubles);

    etc.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #72 on: June 30, 2023, 01:06:41 PM »
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  • On a fundamental "first principle," Archbishop Lefebvre was factually incorrect and this causes Bishop Zendejas to give bad advice.

    In Section 2 of his Ordination sermon, Bishop Zendejas quoted Abp. Lefebvre:

    "What is the first principle to know what we must do in this circuмstance, in this crisis in the Church? What is the principle? This doctrine is expounded by Saint Thomas Aquinas. So what does Saint Thomas Aquinas say about the authority in the Church? When can we refuse something from the authority of the Church? PRINCIPLE: Only when the Faith is in question.’ Only in this case. Not in other cases… Only when the Faith is in question... and that is found in the Summa Theologica (II-II Q.33, a.4, ad 2m) […].” (AL, St. Them Aquinas Seminary, Ridgefield, 1983)"

    Lefebvre was quoting from Aquinas where the Saint was speaking about "Fraternal Correction," not obedience to the authority of the Church. The specific question Aquinas was answering in that Article was "Whether a man is bound to correct his Prelate?" In other words, Aquinas's statement must be understood in the following context,

    Does a man have a duty to correct his Prelate under the virtue of Charity of which Fraternal Correction is part of?

    In his reply to an objection, Aquinas said:

    "Reply Obj. 2: To withstand anyone in public exceeds the mode of fraternal correction, and so Paul would not have withstood Peter then, unless he were in some way his equal as regards the defense of the faith. But one who is not an equal can reprove privately and respectfully. Hence the Apostle in writing to the Colossians (4:17) tells them to admonish their prelate: Say to Archippus: Fulfill thy ministry. It must be observed, however, that if the faith were endangered, a subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly. Hence Paul, who was Peter’s subject, rebuked him in public, on account of the imminent danger of scandal concerning faith, and, as the gloss of Augustine says on Gal. 2:11, Peter gave an example to superiors, that if at any time they should happen to stray from the straight path, they should not disdain to be reproved by their subjects."

    So, Aquinas absolutely DID NOT SAY what Lefebvre claims he said, specifically, that we may "refuse something from the authority of the Church...'only when the Faith is in question." Aquinas's comment was not even about obedience to authority specifically. It was about "publicly rebuking" a religious superior who was in verifiable error. And the context was the example of St. Paul's correction of St. Peter.

    In Aquinas's actual answer to the main question about correcting a Prelate, we see the following:

    "I answer that, A subject is not competent to administer to his prelate the correction which is an act of justice through the coercive nature of punishment: but the fraternal correction which is an act of charity is within the competency of everyone in respect of any person towards whom he is bound by charity, provided there be something in that person which requires correction. Now an act which proceeds from a habit or power extends to whatever is contained under the object of that power or habit: thus vision extends to all things comprised in the object of sight. Since, however, a virtuous act needs to be moderated by due circuмstances, it follows that when a subject corrects his prelate, he ought to do so in a becoming manner, not with impudence and harshness, but with gentleness and respect. Hence the Apostle says (1 Tim 5:1): An ancient man rebuke not, but entreat him as a father. Wherefore Dionysius finds fault with the monk Demophilus (Ep. viii), for rebuking a priest with insolence, by striking and turning him out of the church."

    So Lefebvre fails to understand Aquinas's meaning. Aquinas actually says that fraternal correction of a Prelate "is an act of charity." But it must be done "in a becoming manner" when possible. Not something, as Lefebvre says, only to be done "when the Faith is in question." Aquinas is saying, rather, one DOES HAVE the duty of admonishing a Prelate always. But if the Prelate is not "an equal" is should be done "privately and respectfully." However, it should be done "even publicly if the faith were endangered" or in the case where there is "danger of scandal concerning the faith."

    Is it not "scandalous" to claim that the Roman Canon in the Missal of Pius V (promulgated perpetually by a Papal Bull) can be changed willy-nilly? Is it not scandalous to say the name of a "Pope" in the Mass who daily undermines the orthodox teaching of the Catholic Faith?

    But Bishop Zendejas uses that mistaken "first principle" of Lefebvre to bind the priest he is ordaining to actually promote scandal, rather than avoid it:


    "Dear Fr. Blanchet, when you celebrate Holy Mass, you may be asked whether you [accept] all the rubrics of your ordination missal, i.e. the 1962 Roman Missal. Your answer should be: YES.

    You may be asked if you pronounce the Pope's name at the Canon of the Mass. Your answer should be: YES."


    I love Bishop Zendejas, but on these points he is wrong. So, in the spirit of what Aquinas actually taught us to do in Summa Theologiae (II II Q.33, a.4), I respectfully admonish Bishop Zendejas for his error and gently request that he consider amending his statement, because I sincerely believe, after having done my due diligence, that the use of the 1962 Missal and the belief that Jorge Bergoglio is a true Pope are scandalous to the faithful.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #73 on: June 30, 2023, 01:25:55 PM »
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  • On a fundamental "first principle," Archbishop Lefebvre was factually incorrect and this causes Bishop Zendejas to give bad advice.

    In Section 2 of his Ordination sermon, Bishop Zendejas quoted Abp. Lefebvre:

    "What is the first principle to know what we must do in this circuмstance, in this crisis in the Church? What is the principle? This doctrine is expounded by Saint Thomas Aquinas. So what does Saint Thomas Aquinas say about the authority in the Church? When can we refuse something from the authority of the Church? PRINCIPLE: Only when the Faith is in question.’ Only in this case. Not in other cases… Only when the Faith is in question... and that is found in the Summa Theologica (II-II Q.33, a.4, ad 2m) […].” (AL, St. Them Aquinas Seminary, Ridgefield, 1983)"

    Lefebvre was quoting from Aquinas where the Saint was speaking about "Fraternal Correction," not obedience to the authority of the Church. The specific question Aquinas was answering in that Article was "Whether a man is bound to correct his Prelate?" In other words, Aquinas's statement must be understood in the following context,

    Does a man have a duty to correct his Prelate under the virtue of Charity of which Fraternal Correction is part of?

    In his reply to an objection, Aquinas said:

    "Reply Obj. 2: To withstand anyone in public exceeds the mode of fraternal correction, and so Paul would not have withstood Peter then, unless he were in some way his equal as regards the defense of the faith. But one who is not an equal can reprove privately and respectfully. Hence the Apostle in writing to the Colossians (4:17) tells them to admonish their prelate: Say to Archippus: Fulfill thy ministry. It must be observed, however, that if the faith were endangered, a subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly. Hence Paul, who was Peter’s subject, rebuked him in public, on account of the imminent danger of scandal concerning faith, and, as the gloss of Augustine says on Gal. 2:11, Peter gave an example to superiors, that if at any time they should happen to stray from the straight path, they should not disdain to be reproved by their subjects."

    So, Aquinas absolutely DID NOT SAY what Lefebvre claims he said, specifically, that we may "refuse something from the authority of the Church...'only when the Faith is in question." Aquinas's comment was not even about obedience to authority specifically. It was about "publicly rebuking" a religious superior who was in verifiable error. And the context was the example of St. Paul's correction of St. Peter.

    In Aquinas's actual answer to the main question about correcting a Prelate, we see the following:

    "I answer that, A subject is not competent to administer to his prelate the correction which is an act of justice through the coercive nature of punishment: but the fraternal correction which is an act of charity is within the competency of everyone in respect of any person towards whom he is bound by charity, provided there be something in that person which requires correction. Now an act which proceeds from a habit or power extends to whatever is contained under the object of that power or habit: thus vision extends to all things comprised in the object of sight. Since, however, a virtuous act needs to be moderated by due circuмstances, it follows that when a subject corrects his prelate, he ought to do so in a becoming manner, not with impudence and harshness, but with gentleness and respect. Hence the Apostle says (1 Tim 5:1): An ancient man rebuke not, but entreat him as a father. Wherefore Dionysius finds fault with the monk Demophilus (Ep. viii), for rebuking a priest with insolence, by striking and turning him out of the church."

    So Lefebvre fails to understand Aquinas's meaning. Aquinas actually says that fraternal correction of a Prelate "is an act of charity." But it must be done "in a becoming manner" when possible. Not something, as Lefebvre says, only to be done "when the Faith is in question." Aquinas is saying, rather, one DOES HAVE the duty of admonishing a Prelate always. But if the Prelate is not "an equal" is should be done "privately and respectfully." However, it should be done "even publicly if the faith were endangered" or in the case where there is "danger of scandal concerning the faith."

    Is it not "scandalous" to claim that the Roman Canon in the Missal of Pius V (promulgated perpetually by a Papal Bull) can be changed willy-nilly? Is it not scandalous to say the name of a "Pope" in the Mass who daily undermines the orthodox teaching of the Catholic Faith?

    But Bishop Zendejas uses that mistaken "first principle" of Lefebvre to bind the priest he is ordaining to actually promote scandal, rather than avoid it:


    "Dear Fr. Blanchet, when you celebrate Holy Mass, you may be asked whether you [accept] all the rubrics of your ordination missal, i.e. the 1962 Roman Missal. Your answer should be: YES.

    You may be asked if you pronounce the Pope's name at the Canon of the Mass. Your answer should be: YES."


    I love Bishop Zendejas, but on these points he is wrong. So, in the spirit of what Aquinas actually taught us to do in Summa Theologiae (II II Q.33, a.4), I respectfully admonish Bishop Zendejas for his error and gently request that he consider amending his statement, because I sincerely believe, after having done my due diligence, that the use of the 1962 Missal and the belief that Jorge Bergoglio is a true Pope are scandalous to the faithful.

    Not sure why you chose to bring the non-una cuм into the discussion, and muddy the waters.

    That issue seems not to be pertinent to a discussion regarding the permissibility of the 1950 missal.

    The non-una cuм is only an isssue for sedevacantists, and Zendejas is not a sede.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #74 on: June 30, 2023, 01:37:38 PM »
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  • Not sure why you chose to bring the non-una cuм into the discussion, and muddy the waters.

    That issue seems not to be pertinent to a discussion regarding the permissibility of the 1950 missal.

    The non-una cuм is only an isssue for sedevacantists, and Zendejas is not a sede.

    Sean, Bishop Zendejas brought up the non-una-cuм issue in his Sermon. He said:

    "You may be asked if you pronounce the Pope's name at the Canon of the Mass. Your answer should be: YES."

    I am morally certain that Jorge Mario Bergoglio is not "the Pope" for two reasons: 1) he was not canonically-elected according to the law of papal elections, and 2) is a manifest, obstinate heretic, proven by his refusal to answer the Dubia, which causes him to automatically lose the papal office according to Canon 194 (1983 Code).