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Author Topic: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)  (Read 6097 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2023, 11:33:31 AM »
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  • Both Sts Pius V and Pius X were popes and saints.  +ABL may at some point be canonized, but he wasn't a pope, and neither was he a roman authority on the liturgy.  So, yes, his opinion/actions can be questioned.  The actions of popes', in the case of liturgical reform, cannot be questioned.  Your comparison is nonsense...apples-to-peanuts.
    If the Preface of St. Dominic lasted until the 1960's and the modernists got rid of it, I would have assumed it to be another unfortunate alteration.  What I'm saying is, it is not as easy as you may think to judge liturgical reforms.  The best guide we have is undoubtedly Archbishop Lefebvre, not self-appointed doctors of the Church, whether on the Internet or in the other 49 states of this country.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #46 on: June 28, 2023, 12:10:47 PM »
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  • Quote
    The best guide we have is undoubtedly Archbishop Lefebvre
    Nope.  +ABL was one of many orthodox clerics who started, organized and grew Tradition in the 1970s.  +ABL does not own the Traditionalist movement, nor does the original-sspx.  


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #47 on: June 28, 2023, 12:23:48 PM »
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  • The liturgy is the school of our Faith.  It teaches by words, but mostly by actions and gestures.  When the priest genuflects to the Blessed Sacrament throughout Mass, the Church is teaching the simple faithful that those appearances are in reality God Himself.  By omitting those genuflections, the rite is at least lessening the perceived importance of this fundamental dogma in the minds of the faithful.  That is danger.

    In so construing your argument, all you have really done is tried to objectify that which, nevertheless, remains a subjective argument:

    The "danger" comes not from something intrinsic to the reductions themselves, but from an extrinsic consideration (i.e., it is the intentions of the reformers behind the reductions which creates the "threat," and not the change itself).

    This realization demonstrates that the "danger" is still a perceived one, and therefore subjective, since, but for the knowledge of the secret intentions of the modernist reformers, none would feel threatened in their faith by said reductions.

    More simply:

    Everyone's faith is threatened by an objective danger (e.g., heresy; invalid form).  Not everyone's faith is threatened by a subjective or perceived danger (e.g., not ringing the bell at the elevation; fewer signs of the cross).

    If the reductions were an objective threat to the faith, then reducing the number by even 1 sign of the cross would have constituted a danger (just as 1 heresy would), but I doubt anyone wants to make that argument.

    PS: Exagerrating the educational aspect of the Mass was one of the errors of the modernist liturgical reformers.



    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Cornelius935

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #48 on: June 28, 2023, 02:27:04 PM »
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  • It is dangerous to imagine yourself as judge of what liturgy is best.  Some people will come to conclusions that St. Pius X's reform cannot be accepted.  Then perhaps they will look at St. Pius V's reform of 1570 and denounce how he discarded the beautiful sequence of St. Augustine or the magnificent Preface of St. Dominic.  Leave these questions in the hands of people like +Lefebvre.  He was no fool.  "The best" we can offer to God is our obedience.  By obedience, we give Him our closest attachment: our very wills.
    No pre-1955 supporter here claims to know “which liturgy is best” (it's a silly question anyway), but it does not take any scholar to see that the pre-1955 liturgy is better than the post-55.

    Even the Archbishop recognises this fact, by his decision to keep some of the old practices, e.g. the door-knocking on Palm Sunday and the Second Confiteor at all Masses, which do not exist in the rubrics of the Pian Holy Week & 1962 Missal.

    Those who insist on the 1962 Missal and want to impose it on others, are in actuality the ones who think they are qualified to judge “which liturgy is the best”, since they neither defer to the Pope and use the latest missal, nor defer to truth and Catholic principles by rejecting the Pian Reforms laden with novelties and strange changes. They like to blame it on the deceased Archbishop so they seem less ridiculous and tyrannical.

    Appealing to authority is one of the weakest tactics you can use here, because even if the Archbishop had any real authority to choose a missal to use and impose on priests, the Pope and Rome has more authority than him. If obedience is “the best we can offer to God” (nonsense, goes against Scripture and the Catechism), then all sedeplenists ought to offer the New Mass and stop saying the Old Mass.

    This is precisely the sentimentalism I was talking about, very pathetic (from ‘pathos’), effeminate, and unCatholic. Leave the false humility and false piety to be practiced by Menzingenites, who like to cite these virtues as an excuse to avoid the truth and avoid doing the right thing.

    Offline Cornelius935

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #49 on: June 28, 2023, 03:29:48 PM »
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  • I think the erasing of genuflections and Signs of the Cross is an objective danger to the Faith in the '65.  I'd love to have asked the Archbishop for other specific problems.
    If the reductions (not erasing) of genuflections and Signs of the Cross are *objective* dangers to the Faith, then exactly how many genuflections and signs of the cross make the liturgy NOT dangerous to the Faith? If it's objective and not subjective, there should be an exact number. But there is no answer to this question.

    Eastern Christians keep the Faith without making any genuflections. So the lack of genuflections endangering the Faith is not universal, it's subjective, not objective. I'm sure there are Eastern rites that prescribe substantially fewer Signs of the Cross than the Roman Rite - it seems that Malankara rite priests make less than 20 during each Mass. So it's also subjective.

    The 1962 Missal removed many Collects that petitioned God for important graces. Sunday Masses used to have multiple Collects. This reduction may not have endangered the Faith of the Archbishop, but others could easily say otherwise, and argue that “the Faith is very much in question.”

    For many who left the Novus Ordo, it's clear how similar the Pian Holy Week is to the N.O. Holy Week. In some aspects, the Pian is worse than the N.O. (e.g. the N.O. restored some Easter Vigil prophecies that were removed in 1951/55). Many of us find the Pian HW quite offensive, once we learned about the traditional HW. Imagine leaving your parish to commit to a traditionalist chapel only to find the HW liturgy more-or-less the same, and made by the same crooks.

    It's too subjective to use this qualifier (“we must use the latest missal that does not endanger the Faith”) to decide which missal to use. The better and more consistent principle to follow, is to reject all products and experiments of the Consilium, which from its foundation was made up of enemies of the Church.


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #50 on: June 28, 2023, 03:57:36 PM »
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  • I see the 62 Missal as a starting point for the reclamation of Tradition - at the time when Tradition was re-establishing itself/fighting to keep itself from disappearing totally during the conciliar deformations. At this stage, after sixty plus years of doctrinal and liturgical devastation, with greater knowledge of the liturgical changes instituted and seeing the comparative studies of one set of liturgical usages versus another - specifically the pre 1955 liturgies and Divine Office versus that of the 1962 changes - would it not be in the best interest to fidelity to return to what we now know is the better form - the pre 1955 forms - thus restoring a great deal of what was lost when the 62 changes came? One can always keep going further back and back, but the question arises whether that really serves the what is the most important heart of the matter? 

    Simply put  yes, the 1962 was/is better than the 1965 that was available. The 62 Missal et al represents at least a better start for returning to the doctrinal and liturgical treasures of Holy Mother Church. Can we know at this time in the time of post conciliar Tradition, now move to what is the better of the two, the pre 1955 rites? Posts made here on Cathinfo not long ago, delineating the differences between the pre55 and the 62 arguably do provide objective evidence to show why we should return to the pre55. We DO know it is better, for the reasons that were outlined.

    Unfortunately, because of the present bent of the neosspx and its ongoing mission to seek embrace with Roman apostasy, the return to the pre55 usage is "boldly going nowhere." It is up to the Resistance and other groups to forge ahead with the "Restore the 54, 62 no more!" enterprise.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #51 on: June 28, 2023, 06:06:52 PM »
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  • The 1962 Missal is an outlaw Missal. Without proper authority it changed the Missal of Pius V promulgated by the Papal Bull Quo Primum by inserting a change in the Roman Canon. The change (adding St. Joseph to the Communicantes) was based on a temporary CURIAL decree that originated from a papal wish to add St. Joseph's name to the canon at Masses said during the Vatican II Council at the Vatican. The decree uses the phrase motu proprio, which is a low-level decree of a diocesan bishop aimed at making changes in a single diocese. By contrast, a Papal Bull signed by the Pope himself, like Pius V's Quo Primum, has the highest and most universal authority. 

    An infallible pronouncement by a previous Pope cannot be overturned by the Curial decree motu proprio signed by a Cardinal Prefect. God would not allow John XXIII to change the Roman Canon with authority, so he snuck it in. All who fall for his deception deserve what they get.

    Here is the evidence. I've attached the proof from the AAS, which can be checked on the Vatican website.

       
    Decretum 

    De S. Ioseph nomine Canoni Missae inserendo

    Novis hisce temporibus Summi Pontifices non unam nacti sunt occasionem ut ritibus sollemnioribus cultum S. Ioseph, inclyti Beatae Mariae Virginis Sponsi, augerent. Prae omnibus autem Pius Papa IX eminet, qui votis Concilii Vaticani I annuens, Ecclesiae universae castissimum Deiparae Virginis Sponsum, die octava Decembris anni 1870, caelestem Patronum designavit. Praedecessorum suorum vestigia persequens Santissimus D. N. Ioannes Papa XXIII eundem Sanctum Ioseph non tantum Concilii Vaticani II, quod Ipse indixit, "Praestitem salutarem" constituit, sed motu proprio etiam decrevit Eius nomen, tanquam optatum mnemosynon et fructus ipsius Concilii, ut in Canone Missae recitaretur. Quod consilium die 13 Novembris proxima superiori per Cardinalem suum a Status secretis, Concilii Patribus in Vaticana Basilica congregatis publice apperuit iussitque ut praescriptum inde a die octava proximi mensis Decembris, in festo scilicet Immaculatae Conceptionis Beatissimae Virginis Mariae, in praxim deduceretur. 

    Quapropter haec S. Rituum Congregatio, voluntatem Summi Pontificis prosecuta, descernit ut infra Actionem post verba: "Communicantes ...Domini Nostri Iesu Christi..."  haec addentur:  ”...sed et beati Ioseph eiusdem Virginis Sponsi...” et deinde prosequatur:  “...et beatorum apostolorum ac Martyrum tuorum.”

    Statuit etiam ipsa S. Congregatio ut huiusmodi praescriptum diebus quoque observetur in quibus peculiaris formula "Communicantes" in Missali praescribitur. Contrariis non obstantibus quibuscuмque, etiam speciali mentione dignis. 

    Die 13 Novemberis 1962.

    A. Cardinal Larraona, Prefect



    Decree

    To insert the name of Saint Joseph into the Canon of the Mass

    In recent times, the Supreme Pontiffs have taken advantage of not one occasion to increase the more solemn rites of worship of S. Joseph, the illustrious bride of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Pope Pius IX stands out above all, who, agreeing to the vows of the First Vatican Council, designated the most chaste spouse of the Virgin Mother of the whole Church, on the eighth of December 1870, as the heavenly patron. Following in the footsteps of his predecessors, His Holiness, Pope John XXIII did not only establish the same Saint Joseph as the "Saving Advocate" of the Second Vatican Council, which he himself indicated, but he also decided, on his own initiative [motu proprio], that his name, as a desired memorial and fruit of the Council itself, should be recited in the Canon of the Mass. On the 13th of November, next to the superior of his Cardinal Secretary of State, he publicly opened the Council to the Fathers gathered in the Vatican Basilica, and ordered that the provision be put into practice from the eighth of the next month, that is, on the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    For this reason, this Sacred Congregation of Rites, following the will of the Supreme Pontiff, decides as follows below: Action after the words: "In communicating with our Lord Jesus Christ. and then let them follow them: "...and your blessed apostles and martyrs."

    The S. Congregation itself has also determined that this prescription should also be observed on the days where the special form of "Communicating" is prescribed in the Missal. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary whatsoever, even worthy of special mention.

    November 13, 1962

    A. Cardinal Larraona, Prefect
    [Sacred Congregation of Rites]

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #52 on: June 28, 2023, 08:37:30 PM »
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  • In so construing your argument, all you have really done is tried to objectify that which, nevertheless, remains a subjective argument:

    The "danger" comes not from something intrinsic to the reductions themselves, but from an extrinsic consideration (i.e., it is the intentions of the reformers behind the reductions which creates the "threat," and not the change itself).

    This realization demonstrates that the "danger" is still a perceived one, and therefore subjective, since, but for the knowledge of the secret intentions of the modernist reformers, none would feel threatened in their faith by said reductions.

    More simply:

    Everyone's faith is threatened by an objective danger (e.g., heresy; invalid form).  Not everyone's faith is threatened by a subjective or perceived danger (e.g., not ringing the bell at the elevation; fewer signs of the cross).

    If the reductions were an objective threat to the faith, then reducing the number by even 1 sign of the cross would have constituted a danger (just as 1 heresy would), but I doubt anyone wants to make that argument.

    PS: Exagerrating the educational aspect of the Mass was one of the errors of the modernist liturgical reformers.
    Communion in the hand while standing is a liturgical action that is definitely an objective danger to the Faith, whether or not the person knows the intentions of the reformers.  By not having the communicant kneel in the rite of Communion, the innovators are depriving the faithful of a valuable lesson of What they are receiving, and what they are in relation to It.  The educational aspect of the liturgy is not to be despised either.  Humans learn from how they are taught to comport themselves.

    How many genuflections can one delete before you objectively endanger the Faith?  I'll defer to the Archbishop for that judgement.


    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #53 on: June 28, 2023, 08:46:50 PM »
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  • would it not be in the best interest to fidelity to return to what we now know is the better form - the pre 1955 forms - thus restoring a great deal of what was lost when the 62 changes came?
    St. Thomas does not say to refuse an order because you judge a previous order to be better.  He says 'do what your told unless the Faith is in danger.'

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #54 on: June 28, 2023, 08:59:20 PM »
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  • No genuflections were removed in 1965. The genuflections were lessened in 1967.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #55 on: June 28, 2023, 09:01:02 PM »
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  • Communion in the hand while standing is a liturgical action that is definitely an objective danger to the Faith, whether or not the person knows the intentions of the reformers.  By not having the communicant kneel in the rite of Communion, the innovators are depriving the faithful of a valuable lesson of What they are receiving, and what they are in relation to It.  The educational aspect of the liturgy is not to be despised either.  Humans learn from how they are taught to comport themselves.

    How many genuflections can one delete before you objectively endanger the Faith?  I'll defer to the Archbishop for that judgement.

    On the contrary, Communion in the hand was the practice of the Church for centuries, and is only evil, once again, because of extrinsic circuмstances (ie., the intentions of the reformers), and not in se.

    PS: This is now the second time you copy the error of the innovators, who wanted to use the Mass as a catechism.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #56 on: June 28, 2023, 09:02:23 PM »
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  • No genuflections were removed in 1965. The genuflections were lessened in 1967.

    Good catch (and so much for that argument).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #57 on: June 28, 2023, 09:54:44 PM »
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  • St. Thomas does not say to refuse an order because you judge a previous order to be better.  He says 'do what your told unless the Faith is in danger.'
    Judging what is happening with the neoSSPX there is cause for concern. Slow death by increments. When I am in doubt I turn to clerics whom I trust to answer queries and dispel erroneous notions.the 1962 is all most of have, so that is what we use. 
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #58 on: June 28, 2023, 10:20:04 PM »
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  • PS: This is now the second time you copy the error of the innovators, who wanted to use the Mass as a catechism.
    "Our liturgy is the school of our Faith.  And it is the first school of our Faith for all people.  I was in Africa as a missionary and bishop during 30 years.  And I know that the liturgy was the best school of our Faith for the people.  They cannot read.  They have no pictures, nothing.  But they can see what the priest does.  They can see when the priest adores the Body and the Blood of Jesus Christ, and they know that Jesus Christ is really present on the altar by the attitude of the priest.  They know it.  That is very important."

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #59 on: June 28, 2023, 10:25:59 PM »
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  • "...no more genuflections, no more Signs of the Cross!  Appalling!  The Sign of the Cross showed that it indeed concerned the sacrifice of the Cross.  Let us not say that these are merely details.  These are not details; these are gestures that have meaning and value."