Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)  (Read 6099 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3162
  • Gender: Male
Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2023, 07:54:22 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Stand at a mirror in your best hat.  Take a breath and slowly start to say, "I know better than Archbishop Lefebvre which Missal we must use".  I don't think you will finish that sentence!

    Many of the questionable judgments (I want to say “errors“) +Lefebvre made with regard to the missal are mentioned in the very sermon of +Zendejas.  Here are several of them:

    #1: “The 1955 Holy Week was not a preparation or groundwork for the Novus Ordo.” The consensus of liturgical scholars today recognizes it was.

    #2: “The same people who revised the Bugnini Holy Week rites were not the same people who created the Novus Ordo.”  In fact, there’s a good deal of overlap in personnel, as one might expect, given that only 13 years separated the 1956 experimental rites, and the 1969 Novus Ordo.

    #3: “There is nothing harmful in the Pian Rites.”  On the contrary, most of the changes are based upon condemned archaeologism, and were destabilizing enough to the faithful that the Archbishop of Dublin and New York wrote to Rome of their concerns, papal MC, Mgr. Gromier called them an act of vandalism, and faithful like Evelyn Waugh felt threatened in their very faith.

    #4: Being oblivious to the aims and errors of the preconciliar modernist liturgical movement (of which we were all taught in the SSPX seminary, with Matthew as my witness in my liturgy class!), which served to condition him to believe the aberrations only occurred after the Council: Dialogue Mass and Pian Holy Week changes are therefore considered “traditional” (despite the dialogue Mass existing nowhere in the world prior to 1915 (+/-), and the extinct Pian Holy Week rites having only a 13 year history in the Church).

    #5: Inconsistency in the application of his principle that, “If it is not against the faith, we must accept.”  We’re this true, +Lefebvre would not have been able to regress from the 1964 missal to the 1962.  Also, all priests of the SSPX would logically be compelled to recite the revised Psalter of Pius XII in their daily breviaries, rather than the pre-Pian traditional psalter: Far from being against the faith, the Pian Psalter is a more accurate translation, though it has lost the poetic aspect of the traditional one.

    What I do appreciate in the defenders of +Lefebvre’s liturgical decisions, is their honesty in acknowledging their fidelity to them is based mostly (not completely) on human respect, rather than the merits of the missals themselves.

    I note in conclusion that Vigano has called for a reversion to the traditional Holy Week rites and missal, as he does not labor under the impediment of the 1962 missal.

    As +Williamson once said to me, “Jesus and Mary once walked the earth, but since then nobody has been perfect.”  Implicitly, that truism includes even my here, Archbishop Lefebvre.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1533
    • Reputation: +1254/-99
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #31 on: June 27, 2023, 08:07:58 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nobody said "infallible", here or ever that I know of.

    What I'm saying is, if I have to choose between Archbishop Lefebvre and self-appointed doctors of the Church, I don't need much time to decide.
    Thumbs up, NIFH! That's it, precisely. God clearly chooses certain souls for special extraordinary missions in His Church, and when it comes to choosing between following the God-given guide and some self-appointed theologian, as you say, the decision should not be difficult. What we have seen in the Church since Vatican II is a profound crisis in the 'ordinary' Authority in the Church, leading to a corresponding crisis of Faith, and with it, the priesthood. God, in His mercy, gave us an 'extraordinary' authority to guide us in preserving the Faith and the priesthood, until such time as the ordinary Authority is restored.

    Our Lord said to Sr Mary of St Peter, the apostle of devotion to the Holy Face, "It is to use you as the instrument in My plans for this Work of Reparation that I have created you". We could imagine similar words of an extraordinary mission addressed to this extraordinary Churchman who was Archbishop Lefebvre for a work of even greater importance - the very survival of the Chruch. His mother, who was rumoured to have been a stigmatist, and whose life was written by her spiritual director, prophesied after he was baptised "this one will have an important role in the Church close to the Pope". 

    Surely Archbishop Lefebvre was not absolutely infallible, just as surely as he was given to us by God to lead us in the greatest crisis in the history of the Church, the Faith and the Papacy.


    Offline Cornelius935

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 47
    • Reputation: +46/-3
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #32 on: June 28, 2023, 02:50:10 AM »
  • Thanks!5
  • No Thanks!0
  • The sentimentalism is deplorable. Stop using the late Archbishop as an excuse to stick to the 1962 Missal & Breviary and impose it on others, and stop trying to make people feel guilty for (gasp!) disagreeing with the Archbishop.

    We are in 2023 and we can now see many things clearer than he did in the 70s and 80s. Just as he could see the reality of the 1965 Missal clearer in the 70s than say, in 1967.

    He did not choose to abandon the 1965 Missal because it had errors, his own reason was something along the lines of “I noticed my faith getting diminished...” which was an entirely subjective (but not invalid) reason. Paul VI could have said to him, “Your Excellency, you may have found your faith diminishing, but many bishops and priests around the world found their faith growing since using the Missal of 1965. You should practice humility, ignore your personal sentiments and keep using this authorized Missal, do not disrupt the unity among us, perhaps in a few years you will come to appreciate it like the rest of us...” (By the way, this sounds like something Menzingen/an SSPX District Superior would say to someone with regards to the 1962.)

    If one wants to be loyal to the 1962 Missal & 1955 Holy Week, then do what it prescribes with exactitude, don't “embellish” it with older rubrics and practices. By doing so, you admit that it's a deficient missal. Offer the best to God like Abel and Abraham did.

    I say, good on the younger Resistance priests for wanting to use the pre-Pian Missal & Breviary. They should not feel any guilt for it, it's simply their Catholic sense telling them to do the right thing. May God grant them fortitude.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #33 on: June 28, 2023, 07:10:47 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Much more could be said about the reasons behind +Lefebvre’s regression from the 1965 to 1962 Missal.

    One narrative says he belatedly formed a conviction that the 1965 was dangerous to the faith (although seemingly based upon subjective considerations?), and hence, he was still consistent with his principle of “only when the faith is in danger,” at least subjectively.

    Another narrative says he was practically forced to make this change by his seminarians and faculty.  I have not (yet) made inquiries of those priests still living, who could attest to, or refute, the veracity of that narrative, but supposing it were true, it would show a violation in the application of the principle.

    The question being begged is: Are tgere other legitimate reasons one could reject a liturgical rite?  Looked at differently, we could ask whether St. Thomas Aqunas would have insisted that  the 1951-1955/1962 was compulsory?

    That’s where the heart of the argument lays.

    Would St. Thomas require fidelity to experimental, transitory, and extinct rites, founded upon condemned principles, and with revolutionary aims?

    Or, would he consider fidelity to the aforesaid rites a danger to the faith (at least to those burdened with the perspicacity to perceive what was happening/happened)?

    What should be obvious to all, is that abrupt imposition of the Novus Ordo could never have happened without the incremental changes ushered in by the transitional missals (which reveals their purpose).

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline blueman

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 11
    • Reputation: +4/-13
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #34 on: June 28, 2023, 07:20:17 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The sentimentalism is deplorable. Stop using the late Archbishop as an excuse to stick to the 1962 Missal & Breviary and impose it on others, and stop trying to make people feel guilty for (gasp!) disagreeing with the Archbishop.

    We are in 2023 and we can now see many things clearer than he did in the 70s and 80s. Just as he could see the reality of the 1965 Missal clearer in the 70s than say, in 1967.

    He did not choose to abandon the 1965 Missal because it had errors, his own reason was something along the lines of “I noticed my faith getting diminished...” which was an entirely subjective (but not invalid) reason. Paul VI could have said to him, “Your Excellency, you may have found your faith diminishing, but many bishops and priests around the world found their faith growing since using the Missal of 1965. You should practice humility, ignore your personal sentiments and keep using this authorized Missal, do not disrupt the unity among us, perhaps in a few years you will come to appreciate it like the rest of us...” (By the way, this sounds like something Menzingen/an SSPX District Superior would say to someone with regards to the 1962.)

    If one wants to be loyal to the 1962 Missal & 1955 Holy Week, then do what it prescribes with exactitude, don't “embellish” it with older rubrics and practices. By doing so, you admit that it's a deficient missal. Offer the best to God like Abel and Abraham did.

    I say, good on the younger Resistance priests for wanting to use the pre-Pian Missal & Breviary. They should not feel any guilt for it, it's simply their Catholic sense telling them to do the right thing. May God grant them fortitude.
    Good post.

    I'm always suspicious of this push to impose 62 on us.

    Clergy who we don't know anything about, who are assiduous in controlling the information written online about them, are also suspect in my book. When you see these individuals and how they treat their fellow clergy, it makes me wonder about their true intentions.  It certainly displays a moral weakness, which is long-term the road to liberalism.


    Offline OABrownson1876

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 689
    • Reputation: +565/-27
    • Gender: Male
      • The Orestes Brownson Society
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #35 on: June 28, 2023, 08:35:46 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • That is because we in the Resistance, unlike you, do not believe Archbishop Lefebvre was mistaken in these matters.
    The Good God, in His unsearchable Providence, brought Marcel Lefebvre into this world to be the guiding light in the greatest of crises that His Church had ever seen. All that He does, He does well. God fitted him out with all the necessary attributes he would need to fulfill his mission, and he found a soul uniquely faithful. If you believe you have found a better guide, it is you who are mistaken. Ours is a holding position until the Roman authorities return to their Catholic senses.
    Once again, this is an exaggeration because of an overly-devoted attachment to a person who did much good in his life, but unfortunately had some mishaps.  We can say of very few people in history that "they did all things well."  We can say this of Our Lady, St. Joseph (as I maintain that he never committed a venial sin), St John the Baptist, and perhaps St. John the Evangelist, and a few others.  To say that anyone fighting present-day modernism has done "all things well" is absolute nonsense.  
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12141
    • Reputation: +7668/-2344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #36 on: June 28, 2023, 09:44:42 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    As +Williamson once said to me, “Jesus and Mary once walked the earth, but since then nobody has been perfect.”  Implicitly, that truism includes even my here, Archbishop Lefebvre.
    Correct.  +ABL didn't work in a vacuum, on his own, especially in the crazy, chaotic days of the 70s.  He had all kinds of advice from other Trads in Europe and America.  Traditionalism didn't start because of one, single man. 



    Quote
    The sentimentalism is deplorable. Stop using the late Archbishop as an excuse to stick to the 1962 Missal & Breviary and impose it on others, and stop trying to make people feel guilty for (gasp!) disagreeing with the Archbishop.
    Right.  There is no place for 'hero worship' in Catholicism.  The only 'hero' is Our Lord.  All others are fallible and we can't have some cult following of them.  (Even though, in our days, with no hierarchy to speak of, I understand that Trads search for leaders.  Humanly speaking, it's understandable, but we must rise above human inclinations.)

    Offline NIFH

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 214
    • Reputation: +60/-30
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #37 on: June 28, 2023, 09:51:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Once again, this is an exaggeration because of an overly-devoted attachment to a person who did much good in his life, but unfortunately had some mishaps.  We can say of very few people in history that "they did all things well."  We can say this of Our Lady, St. Joseph (as I maintain that he never committed a venial sin), St John the Baptist, and perhaps St. John the Evangelist, and a few others.  To say that anyone fighting present-day modernism has done "all things well" is absolute nonsense. 
    The word "He" referred to God.  God did a good job providing the faithful remnant with a shepherd who got just about everything right.


    Offline NIFH

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 214
    • Reputation: +60/-30
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #38 on: June 28, 2023, 09:59:05 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think the erasing of genuflections and Signs of the Cross is an objective danger to the Faith in the '65.  I'd love to have asked the Archbishop for other specific problems.

    We can conjecture about what St. Thomas might have said, but what we know is what he did say.

    Offline NIFH

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 214
    • Reputation: +60/-30
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #39 on: June 28, 2023, 10:08:28 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Offer the best to God like Abel and Abraham did.
    It is dangerous to imagine yourself as judge of what liturgy is best.  Some people will come to conclusions that St. Pius X's reform cannot be accepted.  Then perhaps they will look at St. Pius V's reform of 1570 and denounce how he discarded the beautiful sequence of St. Augustine or the magnificent Preface of St. Dominic.  Leave these questions in the hands of people like +Lefebvre.  He was no fool.  "The best" we can offer to God is our obedience.  By obedience, we give Him our closest attachment: our very wills.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1340
    • Reputation: +1084/-81
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #40 on: June 28, 2023, 10:26:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • It is dangerous to imagine yourself as judge of what liturgy is best.  Some people will come to conclusions that St. Pius X's reform cannot be accepted.  Then perhaps they will look at St. Pius V's reform of 1570 and denounce how he discarded the beautiful sequence of St. Augustine or the magnificent Preface of St. Dominic.  Leave these questions in the hands of people like +Lefebvre.  He was no fool.  "The best" we can offer to God is our obedience.  By obedience, we give Him our closest attachment: our very wills.

    I think the erasing of genuflections and Signs of the Cross is an objective danger to the Faith in the '65.  I'd love to have asked the Archbishop for other specific problems.

    We can conjecture about what St. Thomas might have said, but what we know is what he did say.

    The word "He" referred to God.  God did a good job providing the faithful remnant with a shepherd who got just about everything right.

    You sound very strange, like some kind of SSPX agent among us.

    Do you also support blind obedience SSPX-style and the "trust your superiors" mentality?


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #41 on: June 28, 2023, 10:38:01 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think the erasing of genuflections and Signs of the Cross is an objective danger to the Faith in the '65.  I'd love to have asked the Archbishop for other specific problems.

    We can conjecture about what St. Thomas might have said, but what we know is what he did say.

    The reduction in genuflections and/or the number of signs of the cross, deplorable as it might be, would not constitute an OBJECTIVE danger to the faith (as, for example, would be heresy, doubtful form, etc), but SUBJECTIVE (ie., it might unsettle the faith of some, but not others).

    And how could a subjective threat be made compulsory upon those who were not so threatened?  Such a subjective standard would force those not subjectively threatened to resist +Lefebvre’s change to the 1962 missal (which they could not obey because THEIR faith was not in danger).

    I think that dilemma demonstrates that the threat must be objective (ie., a danger for all, whether they realize it or not).

    Although I would support +Lefebvre’s change from the 1965 to 1962 as an improvement, it’s not immediately clear to me what objective danger it would be based on, or, as previously mentioned, whether St. Thomas would have agreed that there was no threat in the transitional and experimental rites.

    That point is at least debatable.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 750
    • Reputation: +401/-122
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #42 on: June 28, 2023, 10:58:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is dangerous to imagine yourself as judge of what liturgy is best.  
    You attend the Novus Ordo?

    Offline NIFH

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 214
    • Reputation: +60/-30
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #43 on: June 28, 2023, 11:11:23 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The liturgy is the school of our Faith.  It teaches by words, but mostly by actions and gestures.  When the priest genuflects to the Blessed Sacrament throughout Mass, the Church is teaching the simple faithful that those appearances are in reality God Himself.  By omitting those genuflections, the rite is at least lessening the perceived importance of this fundamental dogma in the minds of the faithful.  That is danger.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12141
    • Reputation: +7668/-2344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #44 on: June 28, 2023, 11:17:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    It is dangerous to imagine yourself as judge of what liturgy is best.  Some people will come to conclusions that St. Pius X's reform cannot be accepted.  Then perhaps they will look at St. Pius V's reform of 1570 and denounce how he discarded the beautiful sequence of St. Augustine or the magnificent Preface of St. Dominic.  Leave these questions in the hands of people like +Lefebvre.  He was no fool.  "The best" we can offer to God is our obedience.  By obedience, we give Him our closest attachment: our very wills.
    Both Sts Pius V and Pius X were popes and saints.  +ABL may at some point be canonized, but he wasn't a pope, and neither was he a roman authority on the liturgy.  So, yes, his opinion/actions can be questioned.  The actions of popes', in the case of liturgical reform, cannot be questioned.  Your comparison is nonsense...apples-to-peanuts.