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Author Topic: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)  (Read 6092 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2023, 01:38:05 PM »
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  • I myself don't have the training decide the objective reasons for rejecting the '65.  I do remember +Williamson mentioning all the genuflections and Signs of the Cross being scratched out starting in '65.  Standing in front of the appearances of bread and wine, it sure is easier to believe in the Real Presence when the rite has you genuflecting and crossing yourself often.  I would love to have asked the Archbishop himself for the specifics.  Surely they were well-pondered.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #16 on: June 26, 2023, 01:44:34 PM »
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  • The Resistance is so loyal to Abp. Lefebvre that they insist on repeating his mistakes.

    It is very good for a religious community to be loyal to its founder, but this loyalty cannot be an impediment for growth and developlement.

    Accepting the validity of the Novus Ordo sacraments, insisting on the 1962 liturgical books. These things do no good at all.

    Some progress is necessary. It is as though Traditionalists are afraid of any progress, even if it is for good.

    St. Pius X is a good example. He was strongly anti-Modernist, but he was not against progress and reform if it was for a good reason.


    Offline SPelli

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #17 on: June 26, 2023, 06:27:51 PM »
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  • In it, Archbishop Lefebvre explained how the priest participates in the grace of Union in Our Lord Jesus Christ, and how the Holy Mass must be monarchical, not democratic.

    Hmmm.  Priests don't participate in the grace of union. The grace of union is the personal union that exists between Christ's human nature and the Person of the Word.  It is what makes Christ God - one divine person with two natures. 

    What priests receive is not the grace of union, but an indelible character that allows them to act in the Person of Christ.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #18 on: June 26, 2023, 06:39:34 PM »
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  • When you say "our personal preference" do you mean, me and you as individuals, or the SSPX as a whole, or SAJM as a whole?
    It seems that Rome "gave permission only to the Eccleisa Dei traitors" is because only the Eccleisa Dei groups are submissive to Rome in that these groups are bound to ask for permission, whereas the SSPX is in the process of trying to determine at what level to be submissive (thus the SSPX would not be asking for permissions yet), and the SAJM has a rule not to accept any agreement (not even a unilateral agreement) until Rome converts, plus there is no dialogue between Rome and SAJM, so it is unlikely Rome had them in mind.
    I think they know that we as individuals have strong sympathies towards the older liturgies.  By giving permission to the Ecclesia Dei traitors to use the older books, they hoped to add another incentive for us to abandon the true fight and join the conciliar 'church'.  If they could induce enough leaders of an organization, they could even catch a whole society.  I'm guessing that's a large part of the reason they gave that permission at all.  Not all Novus Ordo priests who also offer the True Mass belong to those groups.  It would have been easy enough for the wolves to give a 'general permission' to use the older books.  Instead, they specified certain congregations.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #19 on: June 26, 2023, 08:27:55 PM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre initially complied with the '65 from his default of obedience.  After some use, he realized that the changes in the '65 were chipping away at his own faith.  It was then that he understood the '65 was a danger to the Faith, and therefore not to be obeyed.  This is what +Williamson said had happened regarding this question.

    The Archbishop was almost feeling his way around in the dark.  And he had almost no one to help him with these difficult prudential decisions.  It would have been superhuman to have understood the unacceptability of the '65 right at it's release.
    Great posts, NIFH. The voting rules on this forum will not allow me to up-vote you. 


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #20 on: June 26, 2023, 08:28:23 PM »
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  • The Resistance is so loyal to Abp. Lefebvre that they insist on repeating his mistakes.

    It is very good for a religious community to be loyal to its founder, but this loyalty cannot be an impediment for growth and developlement.

    Accepting the validity of the Novus Ordo sacraments, insisting on the 1962 liturgical books. These things do no good at all.

    Some progress is necessary. It is as though Traditionalists are afraid of any progress, even if it is for good.

    St. Pius X is a good example. He was strongly anti-Modernist, but he was not against progress and reform if it was for a good reason.
    That is because we in the Resistance, unlike you, do not believe Archbishop Lefebvre was mistaken in these matters.
    The Good God, in His unsearchable Providence, brought Marcel Lefebvre into this world to be the guiding light in the greatest of crises that His Church had ever seen. All that He does, He does well. God fitted him out with all the necessary attributes he would need to fulfill his mission, and he found a soul uniquely faithful. If you believe you have found a better guide, it is you who are mistaken. Ours is a holding position until the Roman authorities return to their Catholic senses.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #21 on: June 26, 2023, 09:06:28 PM »
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  • That is because we in the Resistance, unlike you, do not believe Archbishop Lefebvre was mistaken in these matters.
    The Good God, in His unsearchable Providence, brought Marcel Lefebvre into this world to be the guiding light in the greatest of crises that His Church had ever seen. All that He does, He does well. God fitted him out with all the necessary attributes he would need to fulfill his mission, and he found a soul uniquely faithful. If you believe you have found a better guide, it is you who are mistaken. Ours is a holding position until the Roman authorities return to their Catholic senses.

    Fine. No one is forced to agree with me.

    But it is a dangerous thing to hold a person infallible. Any person.

    Even the good Archbishop changed his mind about somethings during his lifetime.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #22 on: June 26, 2023, 10:09:16 PM »
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  • Fine. No one is forced to agree with me.

    But it is a dangerous thing to hold a person infallible. Any person.

    Even the good Archbishop changed his mind about somethings during his lifetime.
    This is a very important post. And sums up today's error on bob/bod and invincible ignorance.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #23 on: June 27, 2023, 12:11:19 AM »
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  • Nor was the Archbishop himself averse to changing his mind.  While some criticize him as being erratic, I view that as a sign of someone who is sincerely seeking the truth and not "stuck" on one or another position.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #24 on: June 27, 2023, 02:27:41 AM »
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  • That is because we in the Resistance, unlike you, do not believe Archbishop Lefebvre was mistaken in these matters.
    The Good God, in His unsearchable Providence, brought Marcel Lefebvre into this world to be the guiding light in the greatest of crises that His Church had ever seen. All that He does, He does well. God fitted him out with all the necessary attributes he would need to fulfill his mission, and he found a soul uniquely faithful. If you believe you have found a better guide, it is you who are mistaken. Ours is a holding position until the Roman authorities return to their Catholic senses.
    Guiding light, pillar of truth, principle of unity, unfailing faith, sure guide. You've mistaken Lefebvre for the Pope.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #25 on: June 27, 2023, 06:06:40 AM »
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  • Here is the sermon in French/English in docx format.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #26 on: June 27, 2023, 06:13:03 AM »
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  • I should share with you something I learned at the Seminary. There are two extremes, which should be avoided.

    LEGALISM
    and
    (it's opposite) - being blown about by every wind, "the spirit", which is usually our own inclinations and/or temptations

    There are two types of Catholic study we can fill our heads with:

    Doctrine
    Lives of the Saints

    But can one substitute for the other? NO!

    If we neglect Doctrine, we forget the ORDINARY: we end up all over the place, expecting exceptions and miracles constantly and everywhere, ignoring the normal, common paths.
    If we neglect Lives of the Saints, we forget the EXTRAORDINARY: God is Master, makes exceptions, miracles happen, visions occur, God intervenes and raises up individuals at times for this or that mission, and in general there is the world of the extraordinary.

    It seems to me that to stay balanced Catholics grounded in the truth, we need to feed our mind from BOTH these sources, so we end up neither free-wheeling PENTECOSTAL nor legalist PHARISEE. Because I can attest that I've seen both in the couple of decades since I learned this.



    SUMMARY
    ======
    It's like we have to remember this phrase:

    Usually life is by the book, but sometimes God gets personally involved.

    If you don't read enough Doctrine (Catechism, Church definitions, rules, etc.), you need this version:
    Usually life is by the book, but sometimes God gets personally involved.

    But if you've read too many Lives of the Saints but not enough books on Doctrine, you need THIS version:
    Usually life is by the book, but sometimes God gets personally involved.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
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    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #27 on: June 27, 2023, 09:41:31 AM »
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  • Fine. No one is forced to agree with me.

    But it is a dangerous thing to hold a person infallible. Any person.

    Even the good Archbishop changed his mind about somethings during his lifetime.
    Nobody said "infallible", here or ever that I know of.

    What I'm saying is, if I have to choose between Archbishop Lefebvre and self-appointed doctors of the Church, I don't need much time to decide.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #28 on: June 27, 2023, 11:31:43 AM »
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  • Nobody said "infallible", here or ever that I know of.

    What I'm saying is, if I have to choose between Archbishop Lefebvre and self-appointed doctors of the Church, I don't need much time to decide.
    "The Good God, in His unsearchable Providence, brought Marcel Lefebvre into this world to be the guiding light in the greatest of crises that His Church had ever seen. All that He does, He does well. God fitted him out with all the necessary attributes he would need to fulfill his mission, and he found a soul uniquely faithful. If you believe you have found a better guide, it is you who are mistaken."

    Someone who is THE guiding light, UNIQUELY faithful and has ALL the necessary attributes is infallible.

    PV makes it even more clear by assing that it's impossible to find a better guide than Lefebvre which, of course, implies perfection, since only perfection can't be improved upon.

    This kind of superlative language ascribing supernatural gifts to Lefebvre is quite indicative of where most Lefebvrites derive their theology from. Their proximate rule of faith is Lefebvre, not the Pope.

    Compliments to the exceptions who dare challenge Lefebvre on the '62 missal for example. Still a ways to go but it's a start.

    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Ordination Sermon by +Zendejas (6/23/23)
    « Reply #29 on: June 27, 2023, 07:11:22 PM »
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  • Catholic dogma is the rule of Faith, not Archbishop Lefebvre.  It is a historical and demonstrable fact that +Lefebvre and +De Castro Mayer were the only two bishops who heroically defended the infallible truths.  As far as created persons go, no one is a better guide in this crisis.

    Stand at a mirror in your best hat.  Take a breath and slowly start to say, "I know better than Archbishop Lefebvre which Missal we must use".  I don't think you will finish that sentence!