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Offline Matthew

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  • Open Letter to Bishop Fellay
    from
    Thirty-Seven French Priests

    Original: http://www.lasapiniere.info/lettre-a-mgr-fellay/
    (Translated by a priest of the SSPX)


     Your Excellency,


    As you recently wrote: “The links which unite us are essentially supernatural.” However, you took care to rightly remind us that the requirements of nature must nevertheless not be forgotten. “Grace does not destroy nature.” Among these requirements, there is truthfulness. Yet, we are obliged to note that a part of the problems, with which we were confronted throughout these recent months, comes from a grave negligence to this virtue (of truthfulness).


    Ten years ago, you used to speak like Bishop Tissier de Mallerais:

       "Never will I agree to say: ‘in the Council, if we interpret it well, yes, perhaps nevertheless, we could make it correspond with Tradition, we could find an acceptable sense.’ Never shall I agree to say that! That would be a lie; it is not permissible to tell a lie, even if it was a question of saving the Church!" (Bishop Tissier de Mallerais, Gastines, September 16th, 2012).


    But since then, you have changed:

       "The whole Tradition of the Catholic faith has to be the criterion and the guide to understand the teachings of the Second Vatican Council, which, in its turn, enlightens certain aspects of the life and doctrine of the Church, implicitly present in her, but not yet formulated. The affirmations [teachings] of the Second Vatican Council and of the subsequent Papal Magisterium, relative to the relation between the Roman Catholic Church and the non-Catholic and Christian confessions, must be understood in the light of the whole Tradition." (Bishop Fellay, St. Joseph-des-Carmes, June 5th, 2012).


    At Brignoles, in May of 2012, you spoke about this docuмent which “suited Rome” but that “will need to be explained amongst ourselves, because there are statements which are so borderline, that, if you are ill-disposed, you could see one way or another—depending on whether you are looking at it through black or pink colored spectacles.” 
    Since then, you justified your position in the following way:

       "If we can accept to be “condemned" for our rejection of modernism (which is true), we cannot accept being so [condemned] if we were to adhere to the sedevancantist theses (which is false); it is that which led me to draft a "minimalist" text, which took into account only one of both statements and which, therefore, could leave misunderstanding in the SSPX.” (Corn Unum, No. 102—an internal magazine for the SSPX)


       "Obviously, when I wrote this text, I thought it was sufficiently clear, that I had sufficiently succeeded in avoiding — how can I put it? — the ambiguities. But the facts are there; I am well obliged to see that this text had become a text which divided us, us in the Society. Obviously, I withdraw this text." (Ecône, September 7th, 2012).


    You are, thus, a misunderstood person who, by condescension, withdraws a very finely-worded text which narrow-minded people were incapable of understanding. This version of the facts is cunning, but is it correct? Withdrawing a docuмent and retracting a doctrinal error, are not formally the same things. Furthermore, to invoke the sedevancantist "theses" to justify this "minimalist" docuмent—which "suited Rome"—seems strongly out of place, when, at the same time, and for more than thirteen years, you authorized a priest to no longer mention the name of the pope in the Canon [of the Mass], confiding to him that you understand his decision, in view of the scandalous signing of a docuмent of common agreement between Catholics and Protestants [by Rome].


    Bishop Tissier de Mallerais confided to a colleague that this "Letter of April 14th" [of Bishop Fellay to the other three SSPX bishops] should never have been published, because, according to him, you [Bishop Fellay] would be “discredited once and for all, and probably forced to resign.” Which confirms Bishop Williamson's charitable warning: “for the glory of God, for the salvation of souls, for the peace of mind of the Society members and for your eternal salvation, you would do better resigning as Superior General, rather than excluding me.” (London, October 19th, 2012). Nevertheless, you took it as an open and public provocation.


    But when Bishop de Galarreta declared, on October 13th, 2012, [in his sermon] at Villepreux, the following unbelievable sentence, which we can only listen to, but cannot read, because La Porte Latine [the French SSPX website] deleted it [the sentence] and did not include it in their on-line transcription: "It is almost impossible that the majority of the Superiors of the Society — after frank discussion, and a complete analysis of all the aspects, of all the ‘ins and outs’ — it is unthinkable that this majority would make a mistake in a prudential matter [he refers to the agreement with Rome]. And if, by chance, it happens—well just too bad—we are going to do what the majority thinks"[and go ahead with the agreement with Rome]— in Menzingen, the General Secretary, Fr. Thouvenot, wrote [concerning Bishop de Galarreta’s sermon] that he “explained the events, of June 2012, in a detached and elevated way.”


    How could have the Society fallen so low? Archbishop Lefebvre himself wrote:
       “On the day of the judgment, God will ask us if we were faithful and not if we obeyed unfaithful authorities. Obedience is a virtue related to the Truth and to God. It is no longer a virtue, but a vice, if it submits itself to error and evil.” (Archbishop Lefebvre, Letter of August 9th, 1986), and Fr. Berto [the theological expert assisting the Archbishop at Vatican II] wrote in 1963:
       “We have to ‘see beyond the end of our nose’, and not imagine that we have a right to call on Holy Ghost by command, just like that, the moment we enter the Council.” 

    During the conference of November 9th, 2012, in Paris, an [SSPX] prior asked you: 
       “At the end of the priestly retreat, two colleagues accused me of being in revolt against your authority, because I showed satisfaction with the text of Fr. de Cacqueray [the SSPX French District Superior] against Assisi III. What do you think?” Your answer was: “I wasn’t aware of such things happening within the Society! It was I who asked for this declaration [of Fr. De Cacqueray]. Moreover, it was published with my permission! I completely agree with Fr. de Cacqueray!" 
    Yet, during the [SSPX] Sisters’ retreat at Ruffec [France], you confided to six priests [SSPX] that you did not agree with the text of Fr. de Cacqueray! Moreover, for 20 minutes, you complained to him about the criticism you had received, from Cardinal Levada, about that subject. If you gave him the permission to publish it, then it was, you explained, so as not to appear biased, but, personally, you disapproved of the contents which you judged to be excessive. Your Excellency, who therefore is using “fundamentally subversive” means? Who is it that is revolutionary? Who is it that does harm to the common good of our Society [of St. Pius X]?


    On November 9th, 2012, in Paris, we heard a colleague ask you: “I am one of those who lost confidence! How many lines of conduct are there in the Society now?” You answered: “It is a serious wound! We underwent serious trials! It will take time!" In face of this elusive answer, another [SSPX] prior then asked you: “Do you dispute your answer to the three bishops?” Your answer was still vague: “Yes, when I read it again, it seems to me that there are a few little errors. But in fact, to help you to understand, know that this letter is not an answer to their letter, but to the difficulties which I had had with each of them separately. I have a lot of respect for Bishop Williamson, even admiration for him, he has bouts of genius in the combat against Vatican II, it is a big loss for the Society and it is happening at the worst moment." But who is responsible for his exclusion? In private, you say many things: “I was at war”… ”Rome lies” — but you have never released the slightest official statement to denounce these supposed lies [of Rome]. Recently, concerning the ultimatum of February 22nd, you officially supported the lie of the Vatican. 

    Your language has become endlessly vague. This ambiguous way of expressing yourself is not praiseworthy, as Fr. Calmel [a traditional Dominican priest held in high regard by the Archbishop and the SSPX] wrote: “I always loathed the soft or elusive expressions, which can be pulled in all directions, which each person can have it mean what he wants. And those expressions are even a greater horror to me, when they clothe ecclesiastical authorities. Above all, these expressions appear, to me, to be a direct insult to the One Who said: ‘I am the Truth … You are the light of the world. Let your word be yes if it is yes, no if it is no!’” 

    Your Excellency, you and your Assistants have been capable of saying everything and its opposite, without any fear of ridicule. Father Nély [the Second Assistant to Bishop Fellay], in April of 2012, in Toulouse, declared to twelve or so of his colleagues [SSPX priests], that “if the doctrinal relations with Rome failed, it is because our theologians were too closed-up” but he said to one of these theologians: "You could have been more incisive." 

    On November 9th, 2012, speaking to us, you, yourself, maintained that: “I am going to make you laugh, but I really think that all four of us bishops, share the same opinions.” Whereas six months before, you had written to them: “Concerning the crucial question of the possibility of surviving, under the conditions of a recognition of the Society by Rome, we do not arrive at the same conclusion as you.” In the same retreat conference at Ecône, you declared: “I confess to you that I don’t think that I went against the [General] Chapter of 2006 by doing what I did.” A short moment after this statement, on the subject of the [General] Chapter of 2012, you said: "If the [General] Chapter treats of something, then it becomes a law which remains in place until the next [General] Chapter.”  When we know that, in March of 2012, without waiting for the next [General] Chapter, you destroyed the law [of the General Chapter] of 2006 (which was “no practical agreement without doctrinal solution”). Se we wonder about the sincerity of the statement. 

    In Villepreux, one of your brothers in the episcopate, invited us: “Not to be dramatic. The tragedy would be to give up the Faith. One should not demand a perfection which is not possible in this world. You should not quibble over these questions. It is necessary to see if the essentials are there or not.” It is true—you have not become a Mohammedan (1st commandment); you have not taken a wife (6th commandment); you simply manipulated reality (8th commandment). But are the essentials always there, when the ambiguities concern the combat of the faith? Nobody asks you for a perfection which is not of this world. We can well conceive that we make mistakes when faced with the mystery of iniquity, because even God’s Elect could be deceived—but nobody can accept a double language. Certainly, the Great Apostasy, asforetold by Holy Scripture, can only disturb us. Who can claim to be unharmed by the traps of the devil? But why have you deceived us? To every sin, mercy, of course! But where are the acts which show that there is a conscience, a regret and a reparation of the errors? 


    You said in front of the [SSPX] priors of France: “I am tired of arguments over words." Maybe there lies the problem. What stops you from going to take a break at Montgardin and enjoy the joys of a hidden life there? Rome has always used a clear language. Archbishop Lefebvre too. You too—in the past. But today, you maintain a confusion, by wrongfully identifying “the Roman Catholic Church, the eternal Rome” and “the official Church, Modernist and Conciliar Rome.” Yet, on no account, can you change the nature of our combat! If you do not want to fulfill this mission anymore, you have the duty, as well as your assistants, to give up the office and responsibility that the Society entrusted to you. 


    Effectually, Fr. Pfluger [the First Assistant to Bishop Fellay] says he personally suffers from the canonical irregularity of the Society. He confided to a colleague, in June of 2012, “to have been shaken by the doctrinal discussions.” At the end of his conference at Saint Joseph des Carmes, he said, in a contemptuous way, to whoever wanted to hear him: “To think that there are still some people who do not understand it is necessary to sign! [an agreement with Rome].” On April 29th, 2012, in Hattersheim, after admitting that “the past events proved that the differences concerning the doctrinal questions cannot be resolved,” he said that he feared “new excommunications.” But how can we be afraid of the excommunication of modernists who are already excommunicated by the Church? 


    At Suresnes [the French SSPX HQ], Fr. Nély [the Second Assistant to Bishop Fellay], on the occasion of a meal for benefactors, announced that “the Pope has put an end to the relations with the Society by asking for the recognition of the [New] Mass and the Second Vatican Council” he also added that “Bishop Fellay was on his own ‘little cloud’, and it was impossible to make him come down from it again.” But didn’t Fr. Nély also sign the monstrous letter to three bishops? Was he not “on his own ‘little cloud’” too, when, in Fanjeaux, he declared to the Mother Superior, who was worried about an ultimatum from Rome: “No, rest assured, everything is going well with Rome, their canonists are helping us to prepare the statutes for the prelature.” 


    Can you say, in conscience, that you and your Assistants have taken on your responsibilities? After so many contradictory and harmful comments, how can you still pretend to rule? Who harmed the authority of the General Superior, if it wasn’t yourself and your Assistants? How can you claim to speak about justice, after having wronged it? “What truth can come from the mouth of the liar?” (Ecclesiasticus 34:4—“What truth can come from that which is false?”). Who was it that sowed the cockle? Who has been subversive by lying? Who has scandalized the priests and the faithful? Who has mutilated the Society by diminishing its episcopal strength? What can charity be without honor and justice? 


    We know that we shall be blamed for not respecting protocol by writing you so publicly. Our answer will then be the one of Father de Foucauld to General Laperrine: “I believed, in entering the religious life, that I would have to above all recommend sweetness and humility; with time, I believe that what is mostly lacking most often, is dignity and [a wholesome] pride.” (Letter of December 6th, 1915). And what's the use of writing to you in private, when we know that a brave and lucid priest had to wait four years before getting a reply from you, and then it was not to read your responses, but your insults. When a District Superior is still waiting for the acknowledgement of receipt of his letter of seventeen pages, sent to the General House, it seems that Menzingen no longer has any other argument than voluntarism: “sic volo, sic iubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas”—“That’s what I want, that’s how it will be, that’s reason enough!”


    Your Excellency, what we are going through at the moment is obnoxious. Evangelical uprightness has been lost—the “Yes! Yes! No! No!” The [General] Chapter of 2012 has clarified nothing at all of the situation. Father Faure, a [General] Chapter member, recently publicly warned us against “letters and statements of current superiors of the Society these last months.” Another Capitulant [General Chapter member] said to a colleague: “It is necessary to recognize that the [General] Chapter failed. Today it is okay to have a liberated Society [of St. Pius X] inside the Conciliar Church. I was devastated by the level of reflection of some [General] Chapter members.”

    Your interventions and those of your Assistants are troublesome and let us believe that [currently] you have simply taken what is only a strategic retreat. 


    At the end of 2011, one of your two Assistants, together with a priest who is in favor of the agreement [with Rome] had tried to estimate the number of priests, in France, who would refuse an agreement with Rome. Their result: seven. Menzingen was reassured. In March of 2012, you said that Mr. Guenois, of Le Figaro [a French daily newspaper], was a very well informed journalist and that his vision of things was correct. Yet, Mr. Guenois wrote: “Whether we want it or not, the pope and Bishop Fellay don’t want a doctrinal, but ecclesial [practical] agreement.” 

    In May of 2012, you told the Superiors of the Benedictines, Dominicans and Capuchins: “We know that there will be a division, but we will continue right to the end.” In June, the ecclesial agreement [with Rome] was impossible. Nevertheless, in October of 2012, in the priory of Brussels, diocesan priests who were invited by Fr. Wailliez [SSPX prior of Brussels], manifested to you their desire to see an agreement between Rome and the Society. You reassured them by these words: “Yes, yes, that will happen soon!” That was three months after the [General] Chapter of July [2012]. 


    Your Excellency, you have the duty in justice to tell the truth, to repair the lies and to retract the errors. Do it, and everything will be back to normal again. You know how André Avellin, in the 16th century, became a great saint after becoming ashamed of a lie, which he had committed out of weakness. We simply want that you become a great saint. 


    Your Excellency, we do not want History to remember you as the man that deformed and mutilated the Priestly Society of Saint Pius the X. 


    Be assured, Your Excellency, of our total loyalty to Archbishop Lefebvre's work,

    February 28th, 2013 



    Signed by thirty-seven priests of the [SSPX] District of France
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    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #1 on: March 20, 2019, 01:04:17 PM »
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  • I won’t pretend that I understand everything in this open letter. It’s long. It’s difficult for me to sort out some of the more elliptical passages. But one does come away from a reading of it with several definite impressions and a few solid conclusions:

    Bp. Fellay should have resigned years ago, perhaps 20 years ago. The SG emeritus speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He does it with impunity. He does it almost naturally. His use of language is such that one (usually) convoluted utterance or line of reasoning may mean one thing at one point in time; yet mean something else at another.

    The man, frankly speaking, does not appear to be very honest. He may even be an ordinary con man or crook, if one is prepared to think the unthinkable.  But the only reason he gets away with it is that sspx priests and faithful alike rarely call him out on his behavior. He does pretty much what he wants, when he wants.

    For one thing, on the purely practical and operational end of things, the sspx faithful should demand that he open Menzingen’s books and expose to public scrutiny the Society’s finances. They should insist that they have an accounting of his assets and his various investments and business enterprises. The faithful have a right to know how their weekly donations are used and distributed, i.e. how much goes here and how much goes there. Where and how is their money spent?


    They should insist on knowing who this shadowy figure Max Krah is, what his real ties to Fellay & Co. are, and what his zionist connections may be, if any.

    But the sspx faithful never get too inquisitive. After all, Fellay & Co provide them with “valid” sacraments and “valid” priests, don’t they? They bask in the heady, ethereal environment of real, old time traditional Catholicism, don’t they? All compliments of Menzingen, which owns much of the property upon which they worship.

    They’re something like the shop owners and landlords in any given big city neighborhood, who buy protection from the mob, in order to conduct their affairs as they have always done and grown used to without interference.   So we pay up, as long as we get regular doses of  “tradition”, as we have come to know it anyway.

    In short, Fellay & Co. survive only because they are allowed to, and are almost never severely challenged.

     


    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #2 on: March 20, 2019, 03:43:09 PM »
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  • Fellay has drank the cool aid.

    I just ran across the pdf online of:  operation-ѕυιcιdє-published-20121029.pdf
    https://www.cathinfo.com/files/operation-ѕυιcιdє-20121029.pdf

    Wow. ABL was a lion. Fellay was too up until shortly before 2000.

    ABL the Lion (September 1990 at Econe):

    Servants of globalism

    So by way of conclusion, either we are the heirs of the Catholic Church, i.e., of Quanta Cura, of Pascendi, with all the Popes down to the Council and with the great majority of bishops prior to the Council, for the reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ and for the salvation of souls; or else we are the heirs of those who strive, even at the price at breaking with the Catholic Church and her doctrine, to acknowledge the principles of the Rights of Man, based on a veritable apostasy, in order to obtain a place as servants in the Revolutionary World Government. That is it. They will manage to get quite a good place as servants in the Revolutionary World Government because, by saying they are in favor of the Rights of Man, religious liberty, democracy and human equality, clearly they are worth being given a position as servants in the World Government.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 10:56:47 AM »
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  • Quote
    King W: Fellay has drank the cool aid..
     
     ...Wow. ABL was a lion. Fellay was too up until shortly before 2000.


     
    What exactly do you mean? +Fellay was a “lion” too, you say. In the mold, you infer, of ABL himself. Really? He enjoyed lionhood status just before 2000, you affirm.

     
    Well, just exactly what kind of lion-like behavior did H.E. exhibit? Was that behavior confined to that short period between 1994, when he was first appointed SG, and 1997? Because in 1997, GREC began its activities. And GREC, which +FELLAY apparently fully supported, was dedicated to the idea of finding a way to reunite with fallen Rome. So then, ‘Fellay the lion’ may have been a very short-lived period in the checkered history of the sspx chief.

    Or, maybe, +Fellay shared lion status with ABL after 1988, up until GREC, where it seems to have been clearly revealed that he too looked back longingly on the Captivity, and for the leeks and garlic of Egypt.
    When was +Fellay ever a “lion,” is my question; and when, exactly did he drink the cool aid?

    It seems to me, quite frankly, that +Fellay has always behaved more like a rat than a lion.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 12:34:12 PM »
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  • I've only read the first part so far, but I think it's a little misleading to contrast a quote from +Fellay with a quote from +Tissier, implying that +Fellay changed with the mere assertion that "you used to talk like him".  It's like putting words in his mouth 10 years prior.  If +Fellay indeed used to think/speak like that, how difficult would it be to find some quotation like that from him?

    I kindof lost interest after the opening salvo for that reason.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #5 on: March 21, 2019, 01:20:56 PM »
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  • I've only read the first part so far, but I think it's a little misleading to contrast a quote from +Fellay with a quote from +Tissier, implying that +Fellay changed with the mere assertion that "you used to talk like him".  It's like putting words in his mouth 10 years prior.  If +Fellay indeed used to think/speak like that, how difficult would it be to find some quotation like that from him?

    I kindof lost interest after the opening salvo for that reason.

    Why?

    If +Fellay never spoke like +Tissier (which is basically giving +Fellay the benefit of the doubt) then we have an even bigger problem.

    The example quote from +Tissier was very +ABL and +Williamson-like -- very classic SSPX. In a worst-case scenario, if we can't produce quotes showing +Fellay was once Traditional as well -- we don't need to throw out the argument, thread, etc. we just need to conclude that +Fellay was never Traditional! Or else what is this, "shoot the messenger"?

    I fail to see the problem you have with the OP. The argumentation is strong either way, with or without 10-year-ago Trad +Fellay quotes. The argument is anything but weak.
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    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #6 on: March 21, 2019, 03:16:49 PM »
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  • Why of course the man in 1999 is exactly the same man today:

    In a 1999 interview, Bishop Fellay shows that he believes in a conspiracy to destroy the Church:
     

    Bishop Fellay said:
    "It is not possible to demonstrate it directly, but I believe anyway that these actions, these behaviors, belong to a general plan, a plan which has been set up pretty soon, at least since the beginning of the twentieth century, perhaps even a little sooner, timing to establish a world government with a world religion. And all that belongs to the preparation for this super-religion. In fact, it is utterly incompatible with the Catholic Religion and its Tradition.... On this point, one is obliged to discern the finger of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, and its own work inside the Church. It is particularly significant to notice that in 1992 a Freemason of high rank could state that inside the very Vatican, four Lodges are presently working, practicing the Scottish Rite, and that these four Lodges are specially devoted to the Vatican's clerics of high ranks. Thus the secret Brethren are working... and destroying, not uniquely from outside, but also from inside the Church itself, from its very bosom."

    Fellay in 2004

    Quote
    Now, if you find in that organization a law against the salvation of souls or circuмstances in which a law is being used against that purpose, of course you do not obey that law. It is no longer true obedience. In such a case, obedience would go against the purpose itself for which God has founded the Church. And then, of course, you say no. And when you say no, you are not disobedient; on the contrary, you are really obedient, because you look at the purpose and the will of God. You see that this is going against the will of God; I want to follow the will of God, so in that case I have to say no.

    These are basics but they are very important. It is very important that you have the right understanding of obedience, because we are called "rebels" and other labels which you know by heart by now. It is just not true. It is like when Rome says to us, "Come back." We say, "We are sorry, but we can't." Why? Because we are already in; we have never been away, so where do you want us to come back from? We are already in.


    So he was a conspirer to sell out in 2004? Or maybe, just maybe, he had changed his thinking by 2012. Maybe he had had to many contacts with the partisans of error and became corrupted in his thinking over the years.

    People do change. I am definitely not the same person from even 6 years ago with the coming of Francis. I have changed a lot. So Fellay could also.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #7 on: March 21, 2019, 03:42:55 PM »
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  • Why?

    If +Fellay never spoke like +Tissier (which is basically giving +Fellay the benefit of the doubt) then we have an even bigger problem.

    The example quote from +Tissier was very +ABL and +Williamson-like -- very classic SSPX. In a worst-case scenario, if we can't produce quotes showing +Fellay was once Traditional as well -- we don't need to throw out the argument, thread, etc. we just need to conclude that +Fellay was never Traditional! Or else what is this, "shoot the messenger"?

    I fail to see the problem you have with the OP. The argumentation is strong either way, with or without 10-year-ago Trad +Fellay quotes. The argument is anything but weak.

    Why would it be difficult to find a quote from +Fellay along the lines of what +Tissier said.  Maybe +Fellay was softer than the other ones out of the gate?  I don't know.  But the contradiction is based on the unproven (in this article at least) that +Fellay thought exactly the same way.  +Tissier and +Williamson have always been a little more hard-line than +Fellay and +Galaretta.

    If this is true, there should be no shortage of +Fellay quotes from which they could make the same case.

    Major:  +Tissier used to be a hard-liner.
    Minor:  +Fellay used to speak like +Tissier.
    Conclusion:  +Fellay used to be a hard-liner.

    Minor is gratuitously asserted but not proven.  I don't understand why you don't see the logical flaw with this reasoning.  Do I have a hard-time believing that +Fellay used to be a hard-liner but changed?  Of course not, but I would like to see this established with real evidence.

    But the other alternative is that +Fellay was soft (relative to +Tissier) even in the beginning, and perhaps even that he was an infiltrator put into the SSPX to bring it down.  

    After all, it's well known that he wasn't on Archbishop Lefebvre's original list of priests to consecrate ... until some outside pressure was brought to bear,


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #8 on: March 21, 2019, 03:44:48 PM »
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  • I suspect that +Fellay could very well have been an infiltrator from the beginning.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #9 on: March 22, 2019, 10:17:00 AM »
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  • Or, maybe, +Fellay shared lion status with ABL after 1988, up until GREC, where it seems to have been clearly revealed that he too looked back longingly on the Captivity, and for the leeks and garlic of Egypt.
    When was +Fellay ever a “lion,” is my question; and when, exactly did he drink the cool aid?

    It seems to me, quite frankly, that +Fellay has always behaved more like a rat than a lion.

    Yes, it's possible that after 1988 he began to think that being held captive by (Modernist) Rome is better than wandering in the desert and risking schism. But on the other hand, I too have to wonder if he was ever a lion, given that he fully allied himself to the works of that seer in the 1990's, which I still find disturbing.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #10 on: March 22, 2019, 10:54:30 AM »
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  • Meg:
    Quote
    But on the other hand, I too have to wonder if he was ever a lion, given that he fully allied himself to the works of that seer in the 1990's, which I still find disturbing.

    What seer in the 90s?  I am aware of such a seer in the early 2000s, to whom even Bp W referred in a couple of earlier ECs.  That seer, as I remember was the one, who, acting on the instructions of Our Lady, warned +Fellay, that if he didn't dedicate the 2nd(?) Rosary Crusade in 2006 to the Consecration of Russia, She, i.e. Our Lady, would abandon the SSPX altogether.  Is that the seer you're referring to, Meg?


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #11 on: March 22, 2019, 11:03:50 AM »
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  • Major:  +Tissier used to be a hard-liner.
    Minor:  +Fellay used to speak like +Tissier.
    Conclusion:  +Fellay used to be a hard-liner.

    Minor is gratuitously asserted but not proven.  I don't understand why you don't see the logical flaw with this reasoning.  Do I have a hard-time believing that +Fellay used to be a hard-liner but changed?  Of course not, but I would like to see this established with real evidence.

    But the other alternative is that +Fellay was soft (relative to +Tissier) even in the beginning, and perhaps even that he was an infiltrator put into the SSPX to bring it down.  
    My point is, even if that whole argument is blown to bits, this argument is equally powerful in drawing a REAL conclusion you can act on:
    +Fellay is soft today
    There is no evidence +Fellay was ever anything other than soft.
    +Fellay is a huge problem for Tradition
    I don't believe this is necessarily the case -- but one of the two arguments has to be valid. And in either case, "Houston we have a problem!"
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #12 on: March 22, 2019, 11:09:00 AM »
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  • Meg:
    What seer in the 90s?  I am aware of such a seer in the early 2000s, to whom even Bp W referred in a couple of earlier ECs.  That seer, as I remember was the one, who, acting on the instructions of Our Lady, warned +Fellay, that if he didn't dedicate the 2nd(?) Rosary Crusade in 2006 to the Consecration of Russia, She, i.e. Our Lady, would abandon the SSPX altogether.  Is that the seer you're referring to, Meg?

    I'm referring to the supposed seer Madame Rossiniere/Cornaz, that Bp. Fellay took an avid interest in around the year 1995.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline X

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #13 on: March 22, 2019, 11:25:19 AM »
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  • Whether in 2001 Bishop Fellay was a lion as Bishop Tissier de Mallerais was, I cannot say.

    But that he spoke/wrote like one (as the author(s) of the Letter of 37 French Priests assert) cannot be disputed.

    Ladislaus is correct to note that the author(s) ought to have supplied some evidence to demonstrate that contention (i.e., My guess is that they did not expect to be challenged on it, the earlier comments of Bishop Fellay being fairly well known within SSPX circles.  Also, because the Letter was being directed to Bishop Fellay, there was no need to cite his own words back to him to demonstrate what Bishop Fellay already knew:) That he no longer spoke as he used to, and, at least at that time, as Bishop Tissier still was).

    Nevertheless, the following April 5, 2002 Letter of Cardinal Hoyos to Bishop Fellay provides several examples (provided by the Cardinal himself) of Bishop Fellay speaking with a tone and conviction similar to that common to old Bishop Tissier (and many of which are addressed not merely to SSPXers in conferences and interviews, but directly to the Cardinal himself).  It seems once upon a time, Bishop Fellay was not afraid to preach the truth to Rome (again, whether or not he believed his own words is another subject altogether):

    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4650

    [All citations are provided by Cardinal Hoyos.  This article is extremely difficult to find on the internet]

    -"It cannot be denied that the dysfunction of the Catholic hierarchy . . . omissions, silences, deceptions, tolerance of errors, and even of positively destructive acts, reaches even into the Curia, and unfortunately even to the Vicar of Christ. These are public facts that can be seen by ordinary men." (Letter from Msgr. Bernard Fellay to Card. Castrillon, Menzingen, June 21, 2001)

    -"The Conciliar Church is like a termite that bores away from the inside. For 30 years and more, the same principles have been applied with an imperturbable coherence, despite their catastrophic fruits . . . So, we prefer to keep our freedom to act for the whole Church rather than let ourselves be isolated in a zoo of Tradition. It is necessary to shake up the Catholic world, which slumbers in a post-Conciliar lethargy." (Interview with Msgr. Fellay in the journal "Pacte," Summer 2001)

    -"It seems to me possible to affirm, from our point of view, that, following Popes Pius XII and Paul VI, the Church is presently in a literally apocalyptic situation." (Letter from Msgr. Bernard Fellay to Card. Castrillon, Menzingen, June 21, 2001)

    -"For it is in this regard that can be found the novelties of the new theology, that were condemned by the Church under Pius XII, and that were introduced into Vatican II . . . They would have us believe today that these novelties are but a development in conformity with the past. They were already condemned, at least in their principles." (Letter from Msgr. Bernard Fellay to Card. Castrillon, Menzingen, June 21,2001)

    -"We are only a sign of the terrible tragedy that runs through the Church, maybe the most terrible of all until now, where not only dogma but everything is attacked." (Letter from Msgr. Bernard Fellay to Card. Castrillon, Menzingen, June 21, 2001)

    -"A Magisterium that contradicts the teaching of the past (for example, today's ecuмenism versus Mortalium Animos), a Magisterium that contradicts itself (see the Joint Declaration on Justification and the preceding note from Cardinal Cassidy, where one finds a condemnation of and also praise for the term "sister Churches") — here lies a haunting problem. Thousands and millions of faithful Catholics who [leave] the Faith are damned because of the failures of Rome, here is our concern." (Letter from Msgr. Bernard Fellay to Card. Castrillon, Menzingen, June 21, 2001)

    -"This crisis in the Magisterium constitutes a problem that it is almost impossible to resolve practically. Moreover, the nightmare concerns also the Curia and the residential bishops." (Letter from Msgr. Bernard Fellay to Card. Castrillon, Menzingen, June 21, 2001)

    -"Rome approached us, saying: Listen, you have a problem; it needs to be solved. You are outside; you must come back in, under certain conditions. Now it is our turn to respond: No, it is not like that. If we are in the situation in which we currently find ourselves (a situation of being marginalized and persecuted), we are not the cause. The cause is to be found in Rome; it was because there are grave deficiencies at Rome that Archbishop Lefebvre had to adopt certain positions in order to conserve certain goods of the Church that were being vandalized." (Interview with Msgr. Fellay in the journal "Pacte," Summer 2001)

    -"We reject the dilemma they are trying to snare us in again. It is very clear: we are not outside, nor will we allow ourselves to be caged." (Interview with Msgr. Fellay in the journal "Pacte" Summer 2001)

    -"We are presently at a standstill, an impasse. I think that this stoppage stems from the basis on which the dialogue was begun [i.e., practical accord, rather than doctrinal]." (Interview with Msgr. Fellay in the journal "Pacte," Summer 2001)

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from Thirty-Seven French Priests
    « Reply #14 on: March 22, 2019, 11:39:22 AM »
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  • Meg:
    Quote
    I'm referring to the supposed seer Madame Rossiniere/Cornaz, that Bp. Fellay took an avid interest in around the year 1995. 

    OK, Meg, got it.  So what about that other seer, Dawn Marie Anderson?  Do you have an opinion about her?  Bp. W seems to have thought (earlier anyway)  that her visions of, and contacts with, Our Lady, were pretty credible.
    And, X, since you seem to be something of an insider,  and sympathetic to the views of the good bishop, what do you think of Mrs. Anderson?  Because she minced no words.  She conveyed what she thought to be the mind of the Blessed Virgin at the time, viz. You, (Bp F.) get on board and do what I tell you, or your organization is toast. (I'm paraphrasing, of course.)