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Author Topic: On the Whole Bellarmine Question  (Read 2458 times)

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Offline Miser Peccator

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On the Whole Bellarmine Question
« on: June 03, 2023, 09:00:05 PM »
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  • From this thread:

    https://twitter.com/ColleenEldrach1/status/1180162458599727104


    What is manifest heresy?



    Quote
    Oh, look, Billot and Merkelbach perfectly agree on the distinctions to be made re: heresy - and NOT with
    @TrueOrFalsePope
    !  Notorious does NOT mean that it has been judged, it simply means that a heresy is PUBLIC/known.  And PUBLIC sins of heresy put one outside the Church.









    See this thread:

    https://twitter.com/ColleenEldrach1/status/1315889616919162886
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #1 on: June 03, 2023, 09:11:48 PM »
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  • Quote
    Just as it is licit to resist a Pontiff who attacks the body, so also is it licit to resist him who attacks souls or destroys the civil order or above all, tries to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will. It is not licit, however, to judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior.

    (St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, Book II, Chapter 29)



    This does not apply to a "heretical pope" which could never actually be a reality if the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is 


    truly INDEFECTIBLE.






    Quote
    This passage, we have repeatedly been told, supports the notion that the traditionalist movement can “resist” the false doctrines, evil laws and sacrilegious worship that Paul VI and his successors promulgated, but still continue to “recognize” them as true Vicars of Christ. (This strange idea is also attributed to other theologians such as Cajetan.)
    The same passage in Bellarmine — we have also been told — shoots down the principle behind sedevacantism (that a heretical pope automatically loses his office) because sedevacantists “judge” and “depose” the pope.
    These conclusions, it turns out, are simply another example of how low intellectual standards in traditionalist polemics give birth to myths that quickly take on the aura of near-revealed truths.
    Anyone who actually consults the original sources and who understands a few fundamental distinctions in canon law comes up with a completely different set of conclusions about what the famous “resistance” passage really means, to wit:
    (1) Bellarmine is talking about a morally evil pope who gives morally evil commands — not one who, like the post-Vatican II popes, teaches doctrinal error or imposes evil laws.
    (2) The context of the statement is a debate over the errors of Gallicanism, not the case of a heretical pope.
    (3) Bellarmine is justifying “resistance” by kings and prelates, not by individual Catholics.
    (4) Bellarmine teaches in the next chapter of his work (30) that a heretical pope automatically loses his authority.
    In a word, the passage can neither be applied to the present crisis nor invoked against sedevacantism.


    https://novusordowatch.org/2018/04/bellarmine-on-resisting-a-pope/
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #2 on: June 03, 2023, 09:14:30 PM »
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  • Also Bellarmine:


    The Pope is the Teacher and Shepherd of the whole Church, thus, the whole Church is so bound to hear and follow him that if he would err, the whole Church would err.
    Now our adversaries respond that the Church ought to hear him so long as he teaches correctly, for God must be heard more than men.
    On the other hand, who will judge whether the Pope has taught rightly or not? For it is not for the sheep to judge whether the shepherd wanders off, not even and especially in those matters which are truly doubtful. Nor do Christian sheep have any greater judge or teacher to whom they might have recourse. As we showed above, from the whole Church one can appeal to the Pope yet, from him no one is able to appeal; therefore necessarily the whole Church will err if the Pontiff would err.
    (De Romano Pontifice, Book IV, Chapter 3; Grant translation.)
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #3 on: June 03, 2023, 09:44:08 PM »
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  • Summary: A sede is claiming Bellarmine.

    Yawn…

    I’ll check back in 45 pages.

    Thanks for all the “original” insights though.

    :facepalm:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #4 on: June 03, 2023, 10:37:16 PM »
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  • Summary: A sede is claiming Bellarmine.

    Yawn…

    I’ll check back in 45 pages.

    Thanks for all the “original” insights though.

    :facepalm:


    Since you seem to be rather intelligent and informed on Church matters,

    please refute the esteemed Doctor 

    because I am not he

    and am nothing.


    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #5 on: June 03, 2023, 10:43:24 PM »
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  • Since you seem to be rather intelligent and informed on Church matters,

    please refute the esteemed Doctor

    because I am not he

    and am nothing.

    Why refute him, when he’s on my side?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #6 on: June 03, 2023, 11:08:00 PM »
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  • Why refute him, when he’s on my side?

    Are you reading the same docuмents everyone else is reading?

    He seems to make himself clear.


    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #7 on: June 04, 2023, 12:49:42 AM »
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  • From this thread:
    https://twitter.com/ColleenEldrach1/status/1180162458599727104

    What is manifest heresy?
    It's a good question, and let's answer it again for those who might be new to Cathinfo and reading this material for the first time.

    The material you provided did not actually define manifest heresy.

    Since St Robert is the one using the term, let him explain what he means by it:

    The fourth opinion is of Cajetan. There, he teaches, that a manifestly heretical Pope is not ipso facto deposed; but can and ought to be deposed by the Church. Now in my judgement, such an opinion cannot be defended. For in the first place, that a manifest heretic would be ipso facto deposed, is proven from authority and reason. The Authority is of St Paul, who commands Titus, that after two censures, that is, after he appears manifestly pertinacious, a heretic is to be shunned: and he understands this before excommunication and sentence of a judge. (On The Roman Pontiff, Bk II, Ch XXX)


    Clearly, St Robert requires some kind of action on the part of the Church before the Pope is declared manifestly heretical and deposed in fact.

    This is supported by his refutation of the second opinion which you cite above:

    Jurisdiction is certainly given to the Pontiff by God, but with the agreement of men, as is obvious; because this man, who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, therefore, he is not removed by God unless it is through men.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #8 on: June 04, 2023, 12:56:49 AM »
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  • This does not apply to a "heretical pope" which could never actually be a reality if the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is
    truly INDEFECTIBLE.
    So teaches Miser Peccator, but not the Church, nor is it the common opinion of theologians. St Robert Bellarmine himself holds to the first opinion you posted above, that the Pope could not be a heretic, but he admits it is not the common opinion ("still, because it is not certain and the common opinion is to the contrary"), which is why he goes on to discuss how the heretical pope would be deposed. So your idea of indefectibility is clearly not the same as that of St Robert or the other theologians.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #9 on: June 04, 2023, 01:26:42 AM »
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  • So teaches Miser Peccator, but not the Church, nor is it the common opinion of theologians. St Robert Bellarmine himself holds to the first opinion you posted above, that the Pope could not be a heretic, but he admits it is not the common opinion ("still, because it is not certain and the common opinion is to the contrary"), which is why he goes on to discuss how the heretical pope would be deposed. So your idea of indefectibility is clearly not the same as that of St Robert or the other theologians.
    Yeah, I'm nobody.  I'm just little ol' Miser.  But there is one thing I'm sure of:  The First Commandment.

    So is the church not indefectible?

    Can the Catholic Church err and preach heresy?

    I thought it was guided by the Holy Ghost.

    When prelates declare that Muslims worship god, does that mean they have apostatized?


    CCC 841 quoting Guadium et Spes
    841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."


    Is there a new First Commandment?



    PV:  Do you worship Allah???


    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #10 on: June 04, 2023, 01:43:20 AM »
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  • Also Bellarmine:


    The Pope is the Teacher and Shepherd of the whole Church, thus, the whole Church is so bound to hear and follow him that if he would err, the whole Church would err.
    Now our adversaries respond that the Church ought to hear him so long as he teaches correctly, for God must be heard more than men.
    On the other hand, who will judge whether the Pope has taught rightly or not? For it is not for the sheep to judge whether the shepherd wanders off, not even and especially in those matters which are truly doubtful. Nor do Christian sheep have any greater judge or teacher to whom they might have recourse. As we showed above, from the whole Church one can appeal to the Pope yet, from him no one is able to appeal; therefore necessarily the whole Church will err if the Pontiff would err.
    (De Romano Pontifice, Book IV, Chapter 3; Grant translation.)
    "Still, because it is not certain, and the common opinion is to the contrary..." (St Robert, above)

    "If he would err, the whole Church would err":
    We are now witness to this sad fact in the post-Vatican II era. Yet it is not the Church itself that has erred but the fallible human element. 

    "Now our adversaries respond that the Church ought to hear him so long as he teaches correctly, for God must be heard more than men. On the other hand, who will judge whether the Pope has taught rightly or not?":
     If the 'common opinion' be correct, which it seems, then we can answer to St Robert, that God might raise up a great prelate, a worthy successor of the Apostles, who faced with these novelties, would guide the sheep in the way of Tradition which, as St Vincent of Lerins taught, is beyond the danger of corruption. He would use as his guide the infallible Magisterium of the Church against the non-infallible novelties of unfaithful Popes, aided by a definition of Papal Infallibility by a recent Council.


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #11 on: June 04, 2023, 01:48:19 AM »
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  • "Still, because it is not certain, and the common opinion is to the contrary..." (St Robert, above)

    "If he would err, the whole Church would err":
    We are now witness to this sad fact in the post-Vatican II era. Yet it is not the Church itself that has erred but the fallible human element.



    The human element?

    So if the pope and the entire council of VII declares that Allah is Jesus' father, what does that mean?

    Did they apostatize?

    Did the gate of Hell prevail?

    Are they still in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

    Or did they leave the building (like Elvis)?
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #12 on: June 04, 2023, 01:48:56 AM »
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  • Yeah, I'm nobody.  I'm just little ol' Miser.  But there is one thing I'm sure of:  The First Commandment.

    So is the church not indefectible?
    How is it that you ask this question when I have just demonstrated that neither St Robert Bellarmine, nor the majority of theologians of his day, considered papal heresy to mean the Church has defected. You place your opinion above the teaching of theologians. You know better than they what is meant by the indefectibility of the Church.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #13 on: June 04, 2023, 01:51:13 AM »
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  • Summary: A sede is claiming Bellarmine.

    Yawn…

    I’ll check back in 45 pages.

    Thanks for all the “original” insights though.

    :facepalm:
    Keep sleeping, Sean, still a long way from p45 :)

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: On the Whole Bellarmine Question
    « Reply #14 on: June 04, 2023, 01:53:29 AM »
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  • How is it that you ask this question when I have just demonstrated that neither St Robert Bellarmine, nor the majority of theologians of his day, considered papal heresy to mean the Church has defected. You place your opinion above the teaching of theologians. You know better than they what is meant by the indefectibility of the Church.
    No.  The only thing I know is the First Commandment.


    Even if ALL the priests, bishops, cardinals and pope declare

    that Allah is Jesus' Father


    I will never give assent to that.



    Do you give assent to that, Plenus Venter?
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon