Author Topic: Obedience Today? (Read 1950 times)

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2022, 07:41:35 PM »

Quote from: Marion on January 12, 2022, 05:11:53 PM

You are calling to be obedient to the antichristian "bishops" of the robber church of the "new pentecost"?

Are you joking?

Marion,

If you ask that question, you have not read the OP.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2022, 07:44:25 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on January 12, 2022, 07:41:12 PM

Yes, you must use your God-given reason and listen to your conscience. This is what St. Thomas Aquinas, and all Catholic theologians, taught.

Regarding a questionable "command" from a human being, you should compare that command to the authentic Magisterium. If the command contradicts the Magisterium, you must reject the command. Otherwise, anyone one in any religious order would be subject to the dictatorial whim of a superior. The words I quoted above from St. Thomas Aquinas show the proper method for "sifting" these commands.

We really should stick to discussing the laity, for no one here on CI is a cleric under a superior. No?

If only 1% of priest will be saved today, we must choose who we follow very carefully, or we could "obediently" follow the 99% into perdition.

Quote

OP - We are taught to be obedient to our shepherds, the pope, our local diocese bishop, the pastor of the church we attend in our diocese. But yet, few here on CI are obedient to our customary shepherds. We are not obedient because we do not recognize their voice as the voice of the Good Shepherd, the voice of Our Lord Jesus Christ who said: " He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up another way, the same is a thief and a robber... they follow not, but fly from him, because they know not the voice of strangers." If we do not recognize the voice of the visible hierarchy what voice do we follow? This is the most important decision to make today, for if we blindly follow one of the priests that is going to Hell, we will go there with him. What priest do we follow, THAT is the question!

Marion · « **Reply #17 on:** January 13, 2022, 12:03:53 AM »

Quote from: Angelus on January 12, 2022, 07:29:07 PM

So if a Catholic "chooses" to join a religious order and "chooses" to follow the superior of that religious order in disciplinary matters, you would not call that "obedience?"

Before a Catholic starts to choose anything, he belongs to a diocese and is subject to the head of that diocese. He may ask to be allowed to join a religious order.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2022, 04:46:40 AM »

“Obedience” is a Vatican II term to hide and justify mortal sin. It is false “obedience” to man instead of God. “Obedience” has and is being used to persecute and silent good and holy Priests.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2022, 04:59:44 AM »

“Those good priest today will be a rare gift, so the majority of us, should not expect more than the (undoubtable valid) sacraments, we are on our own to learn the time-honored traditions and how to really live the Faith.“

Yes. My beloved late mother in law years ago advised “ Go to Mass and come home.

Stubborn · « **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2022, 05:09:14 AM »

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Stubborn · « **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2022, 07:54:03 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on January 13, 2022, 05:09:14 AM

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

I wonder, was anyone else ever taught this, or some variation of this principle as a child?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2022, 07:56:43 AM »

Hesse's principle is falsely applied to the crisis and does not extend to the Magisterium and the Universal Discipline of the Church, nor to the Church's public worship.

Stubborn · « **Reply #23 on:** January 13, 2022, 08:15:52 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on January 13, 2022, 07:56:43 AM

Hesse's principle is falsely applied to the crisis and does not extend to the Magisterium and the Universal Discipline of the Church, nor to the Church's public worship.

"Hesse's principle?" Not even able to show a respect to a priest by calling him Father? - where did you learn that I wonder.

I did not think the Church's principle was such an inconvenience for for you, as such I take it you were never taught this principle as a child. Ok.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2022, 12:49:22 PM »

Gerry Matatics has an interesting perspective on this. The Church is the mystical body of Christ on earth and it's Magisterium is endowed with the property of its head, and continues (continued) His presence among us. Christ was a king, priest, and prophet, thus a) ruler, b) healer/sanctifier, and c) truth teller.

The Magisterium of the Catholic Church took over all these functions, and has (had) them. So, a) it has (had) real authority, and can (could) bind and loose those under its jurisdiction; it can (could) command, and authoritatively say, "do this; do that" ; b) it has (had) the sacraments to justify and translate men from the state of a fallen progeny of Adam to child of God in a state of grace via the sacraments (whose power is via Christ), and the power to redeem and heal; and, c) it was a truth teller, and relayed all necessary truths of the Kingdom of God.

For something to be the, or part of the, true Catholic Church, it must have all of these powers and attributes.

Matatics notes that no Trad priest or bishop basically has the attributes of a). He cannot tell me I must go to his Mass; He cannot bind me by any command. Unlike a bishop or ordinary in a parish of the true Church where I am, either through himself or through a subordinate priest of his (where the Church was and had the attributes of a)), he cannot exercise any binding authority over me.

Any submission of me to him would be purely voluntary, just as to a Prot minister if I were a Prot.

Thus, the marks of the Church lacking - apostolicity (if you incorporate rule or authority into that mark) - in the chapel of whomever down the street (SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, independent priest or bishop), they cannot be a part of the true Catholic Church.

He is a home aloner, and you can quibble with his response to the state of things. But I think he is clearly right to the extent that we are "free," and how we exercise our Catholic faith in these circuмstances of being "without a representative of the King" to command us will be judged accordingly, and not by standards governing when the King's representative could bindingly say, "do this; do that."

I'm not sure how LT in the original post would shake down on this, because it is a bit confusing. He seems to agree with the above when he says we are "free," but I'm not sure.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #25 on:** January 13, 2022, 01:00:03 PM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on January 13, 2022, 12:49:22 PM

Matatics notes that no Trad priest or bishop basically has the attributes of a). He cannot tell me I must go to his Mass; ...

No, but the priest can tell me that I must go to A Mass. That's because it's the Church's command. Canon Law and the Ten Commandments don't go on hiatus during a vacancy.

And, no, Apostolicity is not lacking if there were no bishops left with active jurisdiction; that's been discussed numerous times. There's an aspect of Apostolicity simply in episcopal orders even if they aren't actualized or made concrete at a specific time, just as apostolicity doesn't cease nor the "perpetual succession" of the papacy die out during a papal interregnum simply because there happens to be no pope at the moment. We human being are essentially made of body and soul, but we do not cease to be human when we die (before the Resurrection of the Body). We remain essentially human even if we happen to lack a body for a time. We remain essentially body and soul despite accidentally for a time not having an actual body.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #26 on:** January 13, 2022, 01:05:10 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on January 13, 2022, 05:09:14 AM

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Amen! Holy Scripture backs this up!

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** January 13, 2022, 01:20:00 PM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on January 13, 2022, 01:05:10 PM

Amen! Holy Scripture backs this up!

But the Catholic faith is in fact obedience and submission to the teaching authority of the Church; that is the essence of supernatural faith. "He who hears you hears Me." This maxim is grossly misapplied to the Magisterium out of desperation by R&R. Prots say the same thing, that the teachings of the Church are "traditions of men".

Stubborn · « **Reply #28 on:** January 13, 2022, 02:01:11 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on January 13, 2022, 01:20:00 PM

But the Catholic faith is in fact obedience and submission to the teaching authority of the Church; that is the essence of supernatural faith. "He who hears you hears Me." This maxim is grossly misapplied to the Magisterium out of desperation by R&R. Prots say the same thing, that the teachings of the Church are "traditions of men".

You make no sense. It is not the least bit complicated as you are wont to make it - only to end up confusing the precise and simple meaning.

This principle applies always to everyone in every situation and circuмstance of our lives, if you think otherwise, if, out of desperation by your sedeism you think it is "grossly misapplied" in regards to the conciliar popes, then you don't know what you're talking about.

St. Thomas More understood this principle and died proclaiming it when just before getting his head chopped off, he professed: "I am the king's good servant, but God's first." THIS is exemplifying the highest principle in the Church.

Although St. Thomas More was speaking of the king and not the pope, his example applies to every situation, every circuмstance, every person, and every question of importance throughout our whole life while we live in this world.

We can replace "king" with "parent" or "teacher" or "president" or "bishop" or "pope" or even "angel from heaven" - or you name it, because the principle of what St. Thomas More professed as his last words on earth, is the highest of all Catholic principles.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #29 on:** January 13, 2022, 03:16:36 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on January 13, 2022, 01:00:03 PM

No, but the priest can tell me that I must go to A Mass. That's because it's the Church's command. Canon Law and the Ten Commandments don't go on hiatus during a vacancy.

And, no, Apostolicity is not lacking if there were no bishops left with active jurisdiction; that's been discussed numerous times. There's an aspect of Apostolicity simply in episcopal orders even if they aren't actualized or made concrete at a specific time, just as apostolicity doesn't cease nor the "perpetual succession" of the papacy die out during a papal interregnum simply because there happens to be no pope at the moment. We human being are essentially made of body and soul, but we do not cease to be human when we die (before the Resurrection of the Body). We remain essentially human even if we happen to lack a body for a time. We remain essentially body and soul despite accidentally for a time not having an actual body.

I'm obligated to go to a Catholic Mass. There being no identifying juridical structure which tells me where the Catholic Church is, there's no obligation.

Where are you obligated to go? Some of the priests and bishops will say you can't go to a Thuc bishop or a priest consecrated by a Thuc bishop, some will say you can't go to a una cuм Mass, etc. Which one is right? Which one binds? None of them.

Where is the binding authority? Where is the indisputably Catholic Mass? Depends on who you talk to. Where there is a Catholic Church and a living Magisterium, that will not, cannot, be the case.

If you choose to go to an SSPV or other TLM at some chapel not affiliated with the Conciliar Church, it's a choice, and voluntary.

We are not talking about natural law here, like the 10 Commandments, which needs no lawgiver but a conscience.

This is not a mere "vacancy." I know apostolicity has been addressed here numerous times, and I've been involved in the discussion. And a substantial number here, perhaps a majority, believe it requires what you call active jurisdiction. Even many Sedes believe it is required, like John Lane. I question that myself, and ask for proof, and haven't really seen it.

But the principle - again, accepted by most - hits a wall in our current circuмstances, as Matatics noticed. Matatics is basically arguing from an agreed principle with a certain audience, and his argument has validity assuming the premise, as, again, many do.

We haven't had a true pontiff in perhaps over 60 years. If true, we may have no bishops with apostolic mission - if you accept that argument. We have never had a vacancy before, in about 2,000 years, where that was true. Never. With all other vacancies, we had bishops with apostolic mission, and even during the Arian crisis.

Another "sign" of the times we are in, and how they are one of a kind, such as has never been seen before, so to speak. Matthew 24:21.

Thus, for someone who does accept that argument - the need for active jurisdiction - Matatic's point is powerful and I think valid.

Author Topic: Obedience Today? (Read 1950 times)

Last Tradhican

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Last Tradhican

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Marion

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Viva Cristo Rey

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Viva Cristo Rey

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Stubborn

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Stubborn

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Ladislaus

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Stubborn

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DecemRationis

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Ladislaus

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Viva Cristo Rey

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Ladislaus

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Stubborn

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DecemRationis

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