Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7

Author Topic: Obedience Today?  (Read 3413 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Obedience Today?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2022, 01:00:03 PM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on January 13, 2022, 12:49:22 PM
Matatics notes that no Trad priest or bishop basically has the attributes of a). He cannot tell me I must go to his Mass; ...

No, but the priest can tell me that I must go to A Mass.  That's because it's the Church's command.  Canon Law and the Ten Commandments don't go on hiatus during a vacancy.

And, no, Apostolicity is not lacking if there were no bishops left with active jurisdiction; that's been discussed numerous times.  There's an aspect of Apostolicity simply in episcopal orders even if they aren't actualized or made concrete at a specific time, just as apostolicity doesn't cease nor the "perpetual succession" of the papacy die out during a papal interregnum simply because there happens to be no pope at the moment.  We human being are essentially made of body and soul, but we do not cease to be human when we die (before the Resurrection of the Body).  We remain essentially human even if we happen to lack a body for a time.  We remain essentially body and soul despite accidentally for a time not having an actual body.
Logged

Offline Viva Cristo Rey

Re: Obedience Today?
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2022, 01:05:10 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on January 13, 2022, 05:09:14 AM
The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
Amen!  Holy Scripture backs this up!
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Obedience Today?
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2022, 01:20:00 PM »
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on January 13, 2022, 01:05:10 PM
Amen!  Holy Scripture backs this up!

But the Catholic faith is in fact obedience and submission to the teaching authority of the Church; that is the essence of supernatural faith.  "He who hears you hears Me."  This maxim is grossly misapplied to the Magisterium out of desperation by R&R.  Prots say the same thing, that the teachings of the Church are "traditions of men".
Logged

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Obedience Today?
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2022, 02:01:11 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 13, 2022, 01:20:00 PM
But the Catholic faith is in fact obedience and submission to the teaching authority of the Church; that is the essence of supernatural faith.  "He who hears you hears Me."  This maxim is grossly misapplied to the Magisterium out of desperation by R&R.  Prots say the same thing, that the teachings of the Church are "traditions of men".
You make no sense. It is not the least bit complicated as you are wont to make it - only to end up confusing the precise and simple meaning.

This principle applies always to everyone in every situation and circuмstance of our lives, if you think otherwise, if, out of desperation by your sedeism you think it is "grossly misapplied" in regards to the conciliar popes, then you don't know what you're talking about.

St. Thomas More understood this principle and died proclaiming it when just before getting his head chopped off, he professed: "I am the king's good servant, but God's first." THIS is exemplifying the highest principle in the Church.

Although St. Thomas More was speaking of the king and not the pope, his example applies to every situation, every circuмstance, every person, and every question of importance throughout our whole life while we live in this world.

We can replace "king" with "parent" or "teacher" or "president" or "bishop" or "pope" or even "angel from heaven" - or you name it, because the principle of what St. Thomas More professed as his last words on earth, is the highest of all Catholic principles. 
Logged

Online DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: Obedience Today?
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2022, 03:16:36 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 13, 2022, 01:00:03 PM
No, but the priest can tell me that I must go to A Mass.  That's because it's the Church's command.  Canon Law and the Ten Commandments don't go on hiatus during a vacancy.

And, no, Apostolicity is not lacking if there were no bishops left with active jurisdiction; that's been discussed numerous times.  There's an aspect of Apostolicity simply in episcopal orders even if they aren't actualized or made concrete at a specific time, just as apostolicity doesn't cease nor the "perpetual succession" of the papacy die out during a papal interregnum simply because there happens to be no pope at the moment.  We human being are essentially made of body and soul, but we do not cease to be human when we die (before the Resurrection of the Body).  We remain essentially human even if we happen to lack a body for a time.  We remain essentially body and soul despite accidentally for a time not having an actual body.


I'm obligated to go to a Catholic Mass.  There being no identifying juridical structure which tells me where the Catholic Church is, there's no obligation.

Where are you obligated to go? Some of the priests and bishops will say you can't go to a Thuc bishop or a priest consecrated by a Thuc bishop, some will say you can't go to a una cuм Mass, etc. Which one is right? Which one binds? None of them.

Where is the binding authority? Where is the indisputably Catholic Mass? Depends on who you talk to. Where there is a Catholic Church and a living Magisterium, that will not, cannot, be the case.

If you choose to go to an SSPV or other TLM at some chapel not affiliated with the Conciliar Church, it's a choice, and voluntary.

We are not talking about natural law here, like the 10 Commandments, which needs no lawgiver but a conscience.

This is not a mere "vacancy." I know apostolicity has been addressed here numerous times, and I've been involved in the discussion. And a substantial number here, perhaps a majority, believe it requires what you call active jurisdiction. Even many Sedes believe it is required, like John Lane. I question that myself, and ask for proof, and haven't really seen it.

But the principle - again, accepted by most - hits a wall in our current circuмstances, as Matatics noticed. Matatics is basically arguing from an agreed principle with a certain audience, and his argument has validity assuming the premise, as, again, many do.

We haven't had a true pontiff in perhaps over 60 years. If true, we may have no bishops with apostolic mission - if you accept that argument. We have never had a vacancy before, in about 2,000 years, where that was true. Never. With all other vacancies, we had bishops with apostolic mission, and even during the Arian crisis.

Another "sign" of the times we are in, and how they are one of a kind, such as has never been seen before, so to speak. Matthew 24:21.

Thus, for someone who does accept that argument - the need for active jurisdiction - Matatic's point is powerful and I think valid.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7
« previous next »