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Author Topic: Obedience Today?  (Read 2776 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Obedience Today?
« on: January 12, 2022, 03:42:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 05, 2019, 03:15:21 AM
    St. John Chrysostom, sometime Patriarch of Constantinople:

     “I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think, I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties therein.

     Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail”. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)

    If St. John Chrysostom (one of the Four Great Fathers of the East along with St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nαzιanzus, St. Athanasius) says in the late 4th century that the priests that go to Hell are more numerous than those that are saved, that means that at least 51% of priests in his time were lost in his opinion. That was in the 4th century, imagine today, where we are living in what Pius X called 120 years ago, the cesspool of all heresies, modernism and progressivism! I doubt if more than 1% of priests are saved today. In France today, less than 4% of Catholics go mass and the rest of Europe is about the same. In the largest populated Catholic country in the world, Brazil, about 7% of Catholics go to mass. And we are talking about the Novus Ordo mass, with all of its high jinks!

    We are taught to be obedient to our shepherds, the pope, our local bishop, the pastor of the church we attend. But yet, few here on CI are obedient to our traditional shepherds. We are not obedient because we do not recognize their voice as the voice of the Good Shepherd, the voice of Our Lord Jesus Christ who said:  " He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up another way, the same is a thief and a robber... they follow not, but fly from him, because they know not the voice of strangers."  If we do not recognize the voice of the visible hierarchy what voice do we follow? This is the most important decision to make today, for if we blindly follow one of the priests that is going to Hell, we will go there with him. What priest do we follow, THAT is the question!   

    Do we follow the SSPX, do we follow the Indult mass communities, do we follow the sedevacantes groups, do we follow an independent priest?

    I personally think we are on our own to follow truth and the only safe road is to follow what has always been, tradition and accept no changes till we have Catholic shepherds in the hierarchy established by Christ. I think the most important guide for following as sheep today, the essential condition; the requirement that is absolutely necessary, is to go to priests that were ordained in the traditional Rite of Ordination and ordained by bishops who were consecrated in the traditional formula. That leaves no doubt that one is receiving the sacraments, which may be in most cases the only aid to salvation we will receive in our times. What about a good priest to lead us? Who can we follow that will not be among the priests that will be lost? I think there, we are to judge the priests we follow by their deeds, by how they live the faith.

    Quote
    "For there is no eloquence that does not fall before deeds. Men need example and not words, for they are deeply conscious that without example, religion is in vain, as a tree without fruit is vain and fit only to be cast into the fire" (Giorse Borsi)

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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #1 on: January 12, 2022, 04:14:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on January 12, 2022, 03:42:44 AM
    That leaves no doubt that one is receiving the sacraments, which may be in most cases the only aid to salvation we will receive in our times. What about a good priest to lead us? Who can we follow that will not be among the priests that will be lost? I think there, we are to judge the priests we follow by their deeds, by how they live the faith.

    "For there is no eloquence that does not fall before deeds. Men need example and not words, for they are deeply conscious that without example, religion is in vain, as a tree without fruit is vain and fit only to be cast into the fire" (Giorse Borsi)
    Those good priest today will be a rare gift, so the majority of us, should not expect more than the (undoubtable valid) sacraments, we are on our own to learn the time-honored traditions and how to really live the Faith.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #2 on: January 12, 2022, 09:04:51 AM »
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    • Quote
    We are taught to be obedient to our shepherds, the pope, our local bishop, the pastor of the church we attend. But yet, few here on CI are obedient to them, our traditional shepherds.

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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #3 on: January 12, 2022, 03:28:38 PM »
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    • Who exactly are those traditional shepherds to be obedient to? Pagliarini? Dolan? ...

    None of them can call obedience, and all Trads choose whomever they want to be obedient to, or not.

    My personal choice changed over the years. I finally arrived at  "SSPX Resistance", before I gave up on obedience, altogether.
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #4 on: January 12, 2022, 05:04:15 PM »
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    • Obedience to lawful authority is a commandment of God. So we must take it seriously and understand that just because an authority (bishop or priest) makes errors in some areas, if he is truly an authority for us, we must consider each command and measure it against what our informed Catholic conscience tells us is true.

    St. Thomas Aquinas provides the formulation for determining whether a command is lawful or not:

    “Law is an ordination of reason, by the proper authority, for the common good, and promulgated.”

    If the bishop or priest bases his command on incomplete facts or invalid logic, then his command is not an "ordination of reason." If the person is not actually the bishop or priest with authority over you, then his command does not need to be followed by you. If his command is for his private gain or has an evil end, then he must be ignored. If he does not tell you that he is commanding you to do what he says, then it is not required.

    Being obedient to a bishop's lawful command or taking a bishop's advice are two very different things. The former is a required under the fourth commandment. The latter is a matter of prudence.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #5 on: January 12, 2022, 05:08:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on January 12, 2022, 05:04:15 PM
    Obedience to lawful authority is a commandment of God. So we must take it seriously and understand that just because an authority (bishop or priest) makes errors in some areas, if he is truly an authority for us, we must consider each command and measure it against what our informed Catholic conscience tells us is true.

    St. Thomas Aquinas provides the formulation for determining whether a command is lawful or not:

    “Law is an ordination of reason, by the proper authority, for the common good, and promulgated.”

    If the bishop or priest bases his command on incomplete facts or invalid logic, then his command is not an "ordination of reason." If the person is not actually the bishop or priest with authority over you, then his command does not need to be followed by you. If his command is for his private gain or has an evil end, then he must be ignored. If he does not tell you that he is commanding you to do what he says, then it is not required.

    Being obedient to a bishop's lawful command or taking a bishop's advice are two very different things. The former is a required under the fourth commandment. The latter is a matter of prudence.

    Which are the bishops you're talking about?
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #6 on: January 12, 2022, 05:08:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on January 12, 2022, 03:28:38 PM
    Who exactly are those traditional shepherds to be obedient to?
    The pope, our local bishop, the pastor of the church local diocese church we attend. It is what has always been "tradition".
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #7 on: January 12, 2022, 05:11:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on January 12, 2022, 05:08:56 PM
    The pope, our local bishop, the pastor of the church local diocese church we attend. It is what has always been "tradition".

    You are calling to be obedient to the antichristian "bishops" of the robber church of the "new pentecost"?

    Are you joking?
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #8 on: January 12, 2022, 05:28:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on January 12, 2022, 05:08:36 PM
    Which are the bishops you're talking about?

    If I had a question about "a lawful command" from a religious superior that I could not answer with a traditional Catholic Catechism and logic, I would ask Bishop Williamson. This hasn't come up for me yet, however.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #9 on: January 12, 2022, 05:31:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on January 12, 2022, 05:28:14 PM
    If I had a question about "a lawful command" from a religious superior that I could not answer with a traditional Catholic Catechism and logic, I would ask Bishop Williamson. This hasn't come up for me yet, however.

    There are no religious superiors, properly speaking, within Traddieland.  No one within Traddieland has any meaningful canonical status and all vows are private.
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #10 on: January 12, 2022, 05:35:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on January 12, 2022, 05:28:14 PM
    If I had a question about "a lawful command" from a religious superior that I could not answer with a traditional Catholic Catechism and logic, I would ask Bishop Williamson. This hasn't come up for me yet, however.

    How can you call that obedience, if you yourself choose the "authority"?
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #11 on: January 12, 2022, 05:44:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on January 12, 2022, 05:35:57 PM
    How can you call that obedience, if you yourself choose the "authority"?

    Don't ask difficult questions! :laugh1:
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #12 on: January 12, 2022, 05:49:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on January 12, 2022, 05:04:15 PM
    Obedience to lawful authority is a commandment of God. So we must take it seriously and understand that just because an authority (bishop or priest) makes errors in some areas, if he is truly an authority for us, we must consider each command and measure it against what our informed Catholic conscience tells us is true.

    So, you must sift each and every command, even when it comes from certainly lawful authority?  That is NOT obedience; that is making oneself the final arbiter of the merit of each and every command.
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #13 on: January 12, 2022, 07:29:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on January 12, 2022, 05:35:57 PM
    How can you call that obedience, if you yourself choose the "authority"?

    So if a Catholic "chooses" to join a religious order and "chooses" to follow the superior of that religious order in disciplinary matters, you would not call that "obedience?" 

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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Obedience Today?
    « Reply #14 on: January 12, 2022, 07:41:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on January 12, 2022, 05:49:09 PM
    So, you must sift each and every command, even when it comes from certainly lawful authority?  That is NOT obedience; that is making oneself the final arbiter of the merit of each and every command.

    Yes, you must use your God-given reason and listen to your conscience. This is what St. Thomas Aquinas, and all Catholic theologians, taught.

    Regarding a questionable "command" from a human being, you should compare that command to the authentic Magisterium. If the command contradicts the Magisterium, you must reject the command. Otherwise, anyone one in any religious order would be subject to the dictatorial whim of a superior. The words I quoted above from St. Thomas Aquinas show the proper method for "sifting" these commands.
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