This whole issue has polarized the parish more than any other scandal we have endured. When the Sisters first came and started in on their agenda there were many arguments. Now we just do not really talk about anything of substance.

Here is a short list of what we have to endure:
- They have taken over as sacristans as you know.
-Taken over the choir almost completely as their rule will not let them sing with men     so that was easy to fix. They just asked the few men we had to leave. We do have a very good men's schola, although they seem to sing about a third of the time, with the sisters singing the rest of the time.
-They lead a decade of the parish rosary. (Yes, lead the priests and laity in prayer in the church.)
-They handle the sacred vessels barehanded in front of the whole parish.
-They intone for the priest all the time even when they are not the schola.(Yes, lead the priests in an official church function)
-They ring the main church bells. (The men and the boys used to do this.)
-They have had the school girls sing as the schola several times.
-This list can go on and on.

They do not really serve Mass, but as they have been steadily digressing since they arrived I can see it coming. Many of the elders of the parish say they have not seen the like since the Norvus Ordo arrived.

Not to worry. When the SSPX is fully Novus Ordoized these dames will be performing liturgical dances at the altar!

Musicae Sacrae
On Sacred Music
Pope Pius XII

Encyclical Promulgated on December 25, 1955

Schola Cantorum

99. It is highly desirable that a choir or schola cantorum be established in all cathedral churches, in parish churches, and all other churches of importance where the liturgical functions can be carried out as described in paragraph 93a, and c.

100. Wherever such a choir cannot be organized, a choir of the faithful, either mixed or consisting only of women or girls, can be permitted. But such a choir should take its place outside the sanctuary or Communion rail. The men should be separated from the women or girls so that anything unbecoming may be avoided.

Many have questioned him about this. We are told it is part of their Rule and so therefore allowed. It is also in their Rule that they are allowed to be the Schola. This is also forbidden according to Church teachings, but since it's a part of their Rule it is allowed.

I've been trying to pay attention to how often the men's Schola sings. Again, it only seems to be about a third of the time. In my opinion they also sound better than the sisters, not that that should be a factor though.

This whole issue has polarized the parish more than any other scandal we have endured. When the Sisters first came and started in on their agenda there were many arguments. Now we just do not really talk about anything of substance.

Here is a short list of what we have to endure:
- They have taken over as sacristans as you know.
-Taken over the choir almost completely as their rule will not let them sing with men     so that was easy to fix. They just asked the few men we had to leave. We do have a very good men's schola, although they seem to sing about a third of the time, with the sisters singing the rest of the time.
-They lead a decade of the parish rosary. (Yes, lead the priests and laity in prayer in the church.)
-They handle the sacred vessels barehanded in front of the whole parish.
-They intone for the priest all the time even when they are not the schola.(Yes, lead the priests in an official church function)
-They ring the main church bells. (The men and the boys used to do this.)
-They have had the school girls sing as the schola several times.
-This list can go on and on.

They do not really serve Mass, but as they have been steadily digressing since they arrived I can see it coming. Many of the elders of the parish say they have not seen the like since the Norvus Ordo arrived.

Yes, indeed this sounds like a problem.

I would repeat what I said earlier: These are the actions of a slippery slope, frog-boiling operation. Today, leading a decade of the Rosary. Tomorrow, leading the whole Rosary. Next week, reading the Epistle and Gospel during Mass. (Especially if Rome came out with some kind of hybrid Mass or official change to the so-called "Extraordinary Form")

But I'm not just saying this because I'm negative or against the Neo-SSPX. I actually have good, principled reasons for being against these things. And it goes far beyond legalism. On the contrary -- it's more a question of customs, prudence, and what is fitting for the boys present, etc.

This seems to be in line with the modern world's opinion of men and women -- that women should be the pious ones specializing in "religion" and men are just along for the ride. The exact opposite of how God intended it to be!

What message does it send when men are discouraged from their normal, authoritative roles? What does that do to the many boys and young men present? Wouldn't it turn them off of Trad Catholicism, even as they are turned off of Public School (which has also been taken over by women)?

What will it do to male piety, and male vocations?

The men should ring the bells, serve as sacristans, serve as Ushers, serve Mass, and sing in the Schola. The visible actions going on when everyone is present should be done by men. Behind the scenes, the women can take care of altar linens, flowers, etc. but they should remember St. Paul's admonition that women should "be silent in Church" with a veil over their heads.

Not flattering to female pride, no, but it's the right path nonetheless. Actually, it's God's will!

Quote from: CathConvert

This whole issue has polarized the parish more than any other scandal we have endured. When the Sisters first came and started in on their agenda there were many arguments. Now we just do not really talk about anything of substance.

Here is a short list of what we have to endure:
- They have taken over as sacristans as you know.
-Taken over the choir almost completely as their rule will not let them sing with men     so that was easy to fix. They just asked the few men we had to leave. We do have a very good men's schola, although they seem to sing about a third of the time, with the sisters singing the rest of the time.
-They lead a decade of the parish rosary. (Yes, lead the priests and laity in prayer in the church.)
-They handle the sacred vessels barehanded in front of the whole parish.
-They intone for the priest all the time even when they are not the schola.(Yes, lead the priests in an official church function)
-They ring the main church bells. (The men and the boys used to do this.)
-They have had the school girls sing as the schola several times.
-This list can go on and on.

They do not really serve Mass, but as they have been steadily digressing since they arrived I can see it coming. Many of the elders of the parish say they have not seen the like since the Norvus Ordo arrived.

Yes, indeed this sounds like a problem.

I would repeat what I said earlier: These are the actions of a slippery slope, frog-boiling operation. Today, leading a decade of the Rosary. Tomorrow, leading the whole Rosary. Next week, reading the Epistle and Gospel during Mass. (Especially if Rome came out with some kind of hybrid Mass or official change to the so-called "Extraordinary Form")

But I'm not just saying this because I'm negative or against the Neo-SSPX. I actually have good, principled reasons for being against these things. And it goes far beyond legalism. On the contrary -- it's more a question of customs, prudence, and what is fitting for the boys present, etc.

This seems to be in line with the modern world's opinion of men and women -- that women should be the pious ones specializing in "religion" and men are just along for the ride. The exact opposite of how God intended it to be!

What message does it send when men are discouraged from their normal, authoritative roles? What does that do to the many boys and young men present? Wouldn't it turn them off of Trad Catholicism, even as they are turned off of Public School (which has also been taken over by women)?

What will it do to male piety, and male vocations?

The men should ring the bells, serve as sacristans, serve as Ushers, serve Mass, and sing in the Schola. The visible actions going on when everyone is present should be done by men. Behind the scenes, the women can take care of altar linens, flowers, etc. but they should remember St. Paul's admonition that women should "be silent in Church" with a veil over their heads.

Not flattering to female pride, no, but it's the right path nonetheless. Actually, it's God's will!

Sacristan Duty:
The Sisters regularly set up the altar for Mass.  They never wear gloves and they do handle the Sacred Vessels.  When asked about this, they responded, "That's what we've always done!".

The boys now are becoming more and more unfamiliar with the duties of setting up the altar.  On one occasion when the Sisters were out of town and the boys needed to set up the altar, one parent complained to me that her boys didn't even know where some of the items were kept (whereas they used to know where everything was -- one of her sons is even an MC)!

Choir / Schola:
The boys used to sing during the School Mass.  Now, only the girls will sing.
The Sisters are training the girls how to sing the Propers "in case the girls have a vocation".  

Leading Parish Rosary & Intoning for the Priest
This, especially, shocked the parishioners when the Sisters first began doing this.  Many complaints were made to the pastor.  His response was to ignore or condemn any criticism.  "They are Sisters!  How can they do anything wrong?"  Many parishioners responded by ceasing to show up for the Rosary or Benediction.  (How else could they protest?  The pastor is decidedly hostile to anyone who criticizes the Sisters in any way.)

Ringing the Church Bells
The boys are only allowed to ring the bells when the Sisters are out of town.

Question:
How is a boy, who has a vocation to the priesthood, ever going to learn these functions without being allowed or encouraged to perform these functions many times over?

The atmosphere has become decidedly "feminine" since the Sisters arrived.  That would be wonderful if this were the Sister's Convent --- but it is not.  It is a Parish Church and the boys are being excluded and discouraged, if only by example!!

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: CathConvert

This whole issue has polarized the parish more than any other scandal we have endured. When the Sisters first came and started in on their agenda there were many arguments. Now we just do not really talk about anything of substance.

Here is a short list of what we have to endure:
- They have taken over as sacristans as you know.
- Taken over the choir almost completely as their rule will not let
   them sing with men so that was easy to fix. They just asked the
   few men we had to leave. We do have a very good men's schola,
   although they seem to sing about a third of the time, with the
   sisters singing the rest of the time.
- They lead a decade of the parish rosary. (Yes, lead the priests and
   laity in prayer in the church.)
- They handle the sacred vessels barehanded in front of the whole
   parish.
- They intone for the priest all the time even when they are not the  
   schola.(Yes, lead the priests in an official church function)
- They ring the main church bells. (The men and the boys used to do
   this.)
- They have had the school girls sing as the schola several times.
- This list can go on and on.

They do not really serve Mass, but as they have been steadily digressing since they arrived I can see it coming. Many of the elders of the parish say they have not seen the like since the Norvus Ordo arrived.

Yes, indeed this sounds like a problem.

I would repeat what I said earlier: These are the actions of a slippery slope, frog-boiling operation. Today, leading a decade of the Rosary. Tomorrow, leading the whole Rosary. Next week, reading the Epistle and Gospel during Mass. (Especially if Rome came out with some kind of hybrid Mass or official change to the so-called "Extraordinary Form")

But I'm not just saying this because I'm negative or against the Neo-SSPX. I actually have good, principled reasons for being against these things. And it goes far beyond legalism. On the contrary -- it's more a question of customs, prudence, and what is fitting for the boys present, etc.

This seems to be in line with the modern world's opinion of men and women -- that women should be the pious ones specializing in "religion" and men are just along for the ride. The exact opposite of how God intended it to be!

What message does it send when men are discouraged from their normal, authoritative roles? What does that do to the many boys and young men present? Wouldn't it turn them off of Trad Catholicism, even as they are turned off of Public School (which has also been taken over by women)?

What will it do to male piety, and male vocations?

The men should ring the bells, serve as sacristans, serve as Ushers, serve Mass, and sing in the Schola. The visible actions going on when everyone is present should be done by men. Behind the scenes, the women can take care of altar linens, flowers, etc., but they should remember St. Paul's admonition that women should "be silent in Church" with a veil over their heads.

Not flattering to female pride, no, but it's the right path nonetheless. Actually, it's God's will!

Sacristan Duty:
The Sisters regularly set up the altar for Mass.  They never wear gloves and they do handle the Sacred Vessels.  When asked about this, they responded, "That's what we've always done!"

The boys now are becoming more and more unfamiliar with the duties of setting up the altar.  On one occasion when the Sisters were out of town and the boys needed to set up the altar, one parent complained to me that her boys didn't even know where some of the items were kept (whereas they used to know where everything was -- one of her sons is even an MC)!

Choir / Schola:
The boys used to sing during the School Mass.  Now, only the girls will sing.
The Sisters are training the girls how to sing the Propers "in case the girls have a vocation."  

Leading Parish Rosary & Intoning for the Priest
This, especially, shocked the parishioners when the Sisters first began doing this.  Many complaints were made to the pastor.  His response was to ignore or condemn any criticism.  "They are Sisters!  How can they do anything wrong?"  Many parishioners responded by ceasing to show up for the Rosary or Benediction.  (How else could they protest?  The pastor is decidedly hostile to anyone who criticizes the Sisters in any way.)

Ringing the Church Bells
The boys are only allowed to ring the bells when the Sisters are out of town.

Question:
How is a boy, who has a vocation to the priesthood, ever going to learn these functions without being allowed or encouraged to perform these functions many times over?

The atmosphere has become decidedly "feminine" since the Sisters arrived.  That would be wonderful if this were the Sister's Convent --- but it is not.  It is a Parish Church and the boys are being excluded and discouraged, if only by example!!

When you have 100 altar boys all busy with taking care of the details required to operate the Church, you have 100 altar boys who have the experience they will need to set up and operate their own church after they're ordained a priest.  Even if most of them don't become priests, no difference, they'd all have the basics down pat.  

But when you have 100 altar boys who can't find anything because they've never had the task of using it, and they don't know how to do any one of many operations because some girl has been doing those things, and the various girls are therefore encouraged to look for more things to do, whatever it is, you then have 100 boys who will not have the experience they will need to set up and operate their own church after they're ordained a priest, whether they ever become ordained or not.  But what you will have is a lot of girls who are better qualified to run the church, because they have the experience.  And you'll have a lot of women thinking that they're making "progress" with each step they take to do what only men used to do before.

How long will this go on before the girls become women who can't understand why they are being held back from ordination?  They're already doing everything else, and look at the Presby-terians and the Anglicans and the Lutherans.  They have women priestesses.  They have women pastoresses.  They have women bishopesses.  What's holding back the Catholics?  What makes the Catholic Church an impediment to Christian unity?  Why are we stuck in the Dark Ages?

Can't we be more up-to-date than this?

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While the nuns' involvement in the sacristy outside of Mass might seem to be a controversial topic, with lots of opinions on either side, it seems to me that this business of the women being the norm for the schola (that is, Gregorian Chant sung at High Mass) is much more of a concern, and it really ought to be so.  

In my experience, priests have all too often had to 'make do' with women singing the Chant because they can get women to show up and rehearse for it, but they can't seem to get men to show up and rehearse for it.  

That is, priests often find themselves in the position of reluctantly allowing the women to do this function because finding men to do it is becoming well-nigh impossible.  

Also, it is my experience that women tend to become the director of music at trad chapels, and therefore, they are prone to pitch the Chant in a range that is comfortable for the women to sing, when most men would find it either too high or too low.  Add to that the FACT that Gregorian Chant NEVER sounds as good when two voices an octave apart sing the same thing.  

That means, when you have a group of women singing Chant with one or more men singing the same notes (neums), they are going to be an octave apart, except in the rare case when the Chant is pitched low enough for the man (or men) to reach all the high notes in unison with the women.  And Chant sung "octavo" like that is always a compromise.  It has a CORRUPTED aspect, and loses its PURITY.

The primary virtue of Gregorian Chant well sung is that it communicates purity, and it does so in a most awesome way that penetrates the soul of the listener.  The only way to achieve this purity of sound is by everyone singing the same pitch.  It can be done to a lesser degree by all women singing it, but it can be done to its highest development by all men singing it. -- Just try to get the men to show up for rehearsal.

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