Author Topic: Nuns allowed to set Altar Missal at SSPX chapel (Read 20024 times)

moneil · « **Reply #30 on:** May 26, 2014, 08:24:26 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant
Was she actually serving during Mass- or just setting up for Mass?

It makes no difference, she is not allowed in the sanctuary.

Why is she not allowed to clean the altar or arrange up the flowers?

My mom +rip, born in 1931, arranged the flowers on the altar and around the sanctuary, stripped and washed the linens, dusted etc. throughout her school years.

The video should show the nuns serving if wants to be believed, otherwise, far as I'm concerned, it's a crock.

One might conclude that the OP doesn't know what he is talking about, in addition to the inaccuracy of saying the woman religous is "serving" when there is no evidende of that.

My mother, born in 1923 (I was born in 1951) had care of the church linens for many years before VII. We would go with her on Saturday when she went to "dress the altar" with fresh linens. Other women would come to dust, sweep, vacuмe, and arrange the flowers in season. They would also set up the various seasonal shrines (nativity in December, Our Lady for the May Crowning in May, the Sacred Heart in June, etc.). These shrines were always behind the altar rail.

In parochial school (pre VII, though the 1960 rubrics were in effect) when we boys were of age to be altar servers I recall someone asking who served Mass at the convent chapel, as we were never scheduled for that. Sister replied that only the sisters could be in the chapel, besides the priest. In fact no outsider was allowed in the convent beyond the visitors parlor just past the front door. She explained that the sacristan would set up the altar (wearing gloves when the sacred vessels were touched). The cruets and the bowl for the lavabo rite were set on the edge of the Gospel side of the altar. The priest would say Mass without servers, including moving the missal himself. The women religious, staying on their side of the altar rail during Mass would say the responses and one would ring the bell at the appointed times.

Matthew · « **Reply #31 on:** May 26, 2014, 08:41:47 PM »

Quote from: moneil

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant
Was she actually serving during Mass- or just setting up for Mass?

It makes no difference, she is not allowed in the sanctuary.

Why is she not allowed to clean the altar or arrange up the flowers?

My mom +rip, born in 1931, arranged the flowers on the altar and around the sanctuary, stripped and washed the linens, dusted etc. throughout her school years.

The video should show the nuns serving if wants to be believed, otherwise, far as I'm concerned, it's a crock.

One might conclude that the OP doesn't know what he is talking about, in addition to the inaccuracy of saying the woman religous is "serving" when there is no evidende of that.

My mother, born in 1923 (I was born in 1951) had care of the church linens for many years before VII. We would go with her on Saturday when she went to "dress the altar" with fresh linens. Other women would come to dust, sweep, vacuмe, and arrange the flowers in season. They would also set up the various seasonal shrines (nativity in December, Our Lady for the May Crowning in May, the Sacred Heart in June, etc.). These shrines were always behind the altar rail.

In parochial school (pre VII, though the 1960 rubrics were in effect) when we boys were of age to be altar servers I recall someone asking who served Mass at the convent chapel, as we were never scheduled for that. Sister replied that only the sisters could be in the chapel, besides the priest. In fact no outsider was allowed in the convent beyond the visitors parlor just past the front door. She explained that the sacristan would set up the altar (wearing gloves when the sacred vessels were touched). The cruets and the bowl for the lavabo rite were set on the edge of the Gospel side of the altar. The priest would say Mass without servers, including moving the missal himself. The women religious, staying on their side of the altar rail during Mass would say the responses and one would ring the bell at the appointed times.

Here are my thoughts on this thread (for what it's worth):

1. The title of this thread was misleading (I fixed it). The nun was setting up the missal for a Mass in a regular parish chapel setting, not serving Mass.

2. A convent is obviously a special situation, being a female cloister.

3. A regular parish/chapel is not the same as a convent.

4. There's no intrinsic reason why a reverent, holy, dignified matronly nun is somehow more qualified to set the altar Missal than a homely male parishioner in his low 20's. The latter is more suitable/qualified to be in the sanctuary simply because he is a man.

Are there no manly men in that chapel that can set an altar Missal? I get that a nun is "all religious and stuff" but I think it's shameful that no men consider themselves "religious" enough to do something like this. How pathetic for every man in that chapel.

5. Off-hours altar maintenance (Altar & Rosary society, vacuuming, setting flowers, etc.) is not done during/before Mass with the Faithful watching.

6. I see this as a bit of a slippery slope. There is "technically nothing wrong with it" yet there you have a woman in the sanctuary. It's as far as a Trad can play Novus Ordo without doing anything clear-cut wrong. It reeks of the spirit of compromise, accommodation, etc. It's like a Trad priest wants to "give these kind women a role to play" as far as they can while still remaining "Trad".

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #32 on:** May 26, 2014, 08:46:39 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: moneil
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: 1st Mansion Tenant
Was she actually serving during Mass- or just setting up for Mass?

It makes no difference, she is not allowed in the sanctuary.

Why is she not allowed to clean the altar or arrange up the flowers?

My mom +rip, born in 1931, arranged the flowers on the altar and around the sanctuary, stripped and washed the linens, dusted etc. throughout her school years.

The video should show the nuns serving if wants to be believed, otherwise, far as I'm concerned, it's a crock.

One might conclude that the OP doesn't know what he is talking about, in addition to the inaccuracy of saying the woman religous is "serving" when there is no evidende of that.

My mother, born in 1923 (I was born in 1951) had care of the church linens for many years before VII. We would go with her on Saturday when she went to "dress the altar" with fresh linens. Other women would come to dust, sweep, vacuмe, and arrange the flowers in season. They would also set up the various seasonal shrines (nativity in December, Our Lady for the May Crowning in May, the Sacred Heart in June, etc.). These shrines were always behind the altar rail.

In parochial school (pre VII, though the 1960 rubrics were in effect) when we boys were of age to be altar servers I recall someone asking who served Mass at the convent chapel, as we were never scheduled for that. Sister replied that only the sisters could be in the chapel, besides the priest. In fact no outsider was allowed in the convent beyond the visitors parlor just past the front door. She explained that the sacristan would set up the altar (wearing gloves when the sacred vessels were touched). The cruets and the bowl for the lavabo rite were set on the edge of the Gospel side of the altar. The priest would say Mass without servers, including moving the missal himself. The women religious, staying on their side of the altar rail during Mass would say the responses and one would ring the bell at the appointed times.

Here are my thoughts on this thread (for what it's worth):

1. The title of this thread is misleading. The nun was setting up the missal for a Mass in a regular parish chapel setting, not serving Mass.

2. A convent is obviously a special situation, being a female cloister.

3. A regular parish/chapel is not the same as a convent.

4. There's no intrinsic reason why a reverent, holy, dignified matronly nun is somehow more qualified to set the altar Missal than a homely male parishioner in his low 20's. The latter is more suitable/qualified to be in the sanctuary simply because he is a man.

Are there no manly men in that chapel that can set an altar Missal? I get that a nun is "all religious and stuff" but I think it's shameful that no men consider themselves "religious" enough to do something like this. How pathetic for every man in that chapel.

5. Off-hours altar maintenance (Altar & Rosary society, vacuuming, setting flowers, etc.) is not done during/before Mass with the Faithful watching.

6. I see this as a bit of a slippery slope. There is "technically nothing wrong with it" yet there you have a woman in the sanctuary. It's as far as a Trad can play Novus Ordo without doing anything clear-cut wrong. It reeks of the spirit of compromise, accommodation, etc. It's like a Trad priest wants to "give these kind women a role to play" as far as they can while still remaining "Trad".

We'll said.

poche · « **Reply #33 on:** May 26, 2014, 10:41:51 PM »

Quote from: JMacQ

Very worrying. But there is worse, much worse.

I found a much more disturbing picture of a traditional nun saying the Novus Ordo facing the people and without vestments.

That looks like she is the sacristan. It doesn't look like she is saying mass.

And another traditional nun giving Benediction.

This is St Clare. She brought out the blessed sacrament when her convent was being attacked by the Moors. When the Moors saw the Blessed Sacrament they all ran away.

Another nun vesting for mass. She has the amice already on her head. It's clear! Furthermore, it's very disturbing to see that her rosary hangs on the right and not from the left side of the habit, as tradition commands.

That is a nun in her habit. Some habits had that type of bib. She is not preparing to say mass.

crossbro · « **Reply #34 on:** May 26, 2014, 11:28:15 PM »

Quote

Are there no manly men in that chapel that can set an altar Missal? I get that a nun is "all religious and stuff" but I think it's shameful that no men consider themselves "religious" enough to do something like this. How pathetic for every man in that chapel.

Our priest does it when he comes in, so your claim there is no manly enough man to do that reflects on the priest ?

Our administrator (she does not bear the title of sacristan) hands the clean linens to the kids over the Communion rail, then the kids and the priest handle it from there.

crossbro · « **Reply #35 on:** May 26, 2014, 11:47:01 PM »

Musicam Sacram (1967)

Quote

23. Taking into account the layout of each church, the choir should be placed in such a way:

(a) That its nature should be clearly apparent-namely, that it is a part of the whole congregation, and that it fulfills a special role;

(b) That it is easier for it to fulfill its liturgical function;20

(c) That each of its members may be able to participate easily in the Mass, that is to say by sacramental participation.

Whenever the choir also includes women, it should be placed outside the sanctuary.

Look at this, even when women are serving in the choir the choir has to be moved to prevent them from being in the sanctuary.

Pope Paul VI clairified women could not be altar servers or lectors (1972) because those were considered minor orders to the priesthood. So, no one but the priest and those involved in the minor orders should be allowed in the sanctuary, period. Male or not.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #36 on:** May 27, 2014, 09:46:46 AM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: Centroamerica

It is primarily the exaggeration that debunks this video's credibility. It makes you wonder if it was really presented as an issue to the prior. Certainly, if this were happening for such a long time and many complaints were made, we would have heard of this by now. It looks more as if someone had their camera and wanted another opportunity to throw mud at the Society. I understand the argument that a woman should not be at the altar, and I agree. The problem again is the exaggeration of it all. You can be certain that as far as allowing women to so much as "enter up to the altar" as the nun has done here is something that has not only happened in Society chapels!

Come on, people, we don't need CRAP like this when we have REAL EVIDENCE to "throw mud" at the SSPX. This is not even legitimate. The REAL ISSUES are what matter, not superficialities like this. This only serves to discredit the resistance with numbskull postings like this.

The fact of the matter is it is what it is. Need I repeat that if this had been going on for quite a long time every resistance chapel would have known about it. What they are doing is attacking religious and priests and it does serve to discredit the resistance (of which I can say I attend Mass with regularly). In that case, it wouldn't be my post stating the obvious which is "numbskull" but rather the reprobates slandering priests.

I was agreeing with you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #37 on:** May 27, 2014, 09:48:41 AM »

Quote from: crossbro

Well, I certainly have learned that most people here are "traditionalists" only in matters which do not politically hurt their feelings. When that happens they turn their backs on Jesus.

I think that the folks who attend my diocese TLM chapel are better than those in SSPX. Women at the chapel know better then to step foot on the sanctuary.

Whatever. At the "indult" church where I live, there's a "deacon" with 12 children that routinely interferes with things. I'd prefer a lady sacristan to someone like that.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #38 on:** May 27, 2014, 10:13:39 AM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote from: Centroamerica

It is primarily the exaggeration that debunks this video's credibility. It makes you wonder if it was really presented as an issue to the prior. Certainly, if this were happening for such a long time and many complaints were made, we would have heard of this by now. It looks more as if someone had their camera and wanted another opportunity to throw mud at the Society. I understand the argument that a woman should not be at the altar, and I agree. The problem again is the exaggeration of it all. You can be certain that as far as allowing women to so much as "enter up to the altar" as the nun has done here is something that has not only happened in Society chapels!

Come on, people, we don't need CRAP like this when we have REAL EVIDENCE to "throw mud" at the SSPX. This is not even legitimate. The REAL ISSUES are what matter, not superficialities like this. This only serves to discredit the resistance with numbskull postings like this.

The fact of the matter is it is what it is. Need I repeat that if this had been going on for quite a long time every resistance chapel would have known about it. What they are doing is attacking religious and priests and it does serve to discredit the resistance (of which I can say I attend Mass with regularly). In that case, it wouldn't be my post stating the obvious which is "numbskull" but rather the reprobates slandering priests.

I was agreeing with you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No problem.

God Bless,

obediens · « **Reply #39 on:** May 27, 2014, 05:28:58 PM »

Apparently, Poche, you didn't understand the sarcasm/humor behind JMacQ's original post.

Quote from: poche

Quote from: JMacQ
Very worrying. But there is worse, much worse.

I found a much more disturbing picture of a traditional nun saying the Novus Ordo facing the people and without vestments.

That looks like she is the sacristan. It doesn't look like she is saying mass.

And another traditional nun giving Benediction.

This is St Clare. She brought out the blessed sacrament when her convent was being attacked by the Moors. When the Moors saw the Blessed Sacrament they all ran away.

Another nun vesting for mass. She has the amice already on her head. It's clear! Furthermore, it's very disturbing to see that her rosary hangs on the right and not from the left side of the habit, as tradition commands.

That is a nun in her habit. Some habits had that type of bib. She is not preparing to say mass.

CathConvert · « **Reply #40 on:** May 27, 2014, 05:54:44 PM »

I am a parishioner at this church. What Sister was doing was setting up the altar for a High Mass. The sisters are sacristans at this church, not because there are no men that have offered (I know of a few personally) but because they have either requested it or the pastor has requested it. These sisters set up the altars regularly and yes they also carry the Sacred Vessels bare handed in front of the parish. This is not their convent chapel but a chapel serving many hundreds of SSPX parishioners. They do have a chapel in their convent as well.

magdalena · « **Reply #41 on:** May 27, 2014, 06:06:09 PM »

Quote from: CathConvert

I am a parishioner at this church. What Sister was doing was setting up the altar for a High Mass. The sisters are sacristans at this church, not because there are no men that have offered (I know of a few personally) but because they have either requested it or the pastor has requested it. These sisters set up the altars regularly and yes they also carry the Sacred Vessels bare handed in front of the parish. This is not their convent chapel but a chapel serving many hundreds of SSPX parishioners. They do have a chapel in their convent as well.

:sad:

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #42 on:** May 27, 2014, 06:06:09 PM »

Quote from: CathConvert

I am a parishioner at this church. What Sister was doing was setting up the altar for a High Mass. The sisters are sacristans at this church, not because there are no men that have offered (I know of a few personally) but because they have either requested it or the pastor has requested it. These sisters set up the altars regularly and yes they also carry the Sacred Vessels bare handed in front of the parish. This is not their convent chapel but a chapel serving many hundreds of SSPX parishioners. They do have a chapel in their convent as well.

What response does the priest at this parish offer to those who question why this practice is in force?

CathConvert · « **Reply #43 on:** May 27, 2014, 07:10:32 PM »

Many have questioned him about this. We are told it is part of their Rule and so therefore allowed. It is also in their Rule that they are allowed to be the Schola. This is also forbidden according to Church teachings, but since it's a part of their Rule it is allowed.

Frances · « **Reply #44 on:** May 27, 2014, 08:55:19 PM »

Quote from: Frances

:dancing-banana I personally "confess" to having vacuumed the rug in the sanctuary, orders of an SSPX priest now with the Resistance.

:dancing-banana:
The situation was the following. The chapel was in a basement and began to flood from a hard rain across the sanctuary rug from beneath a door on the epistle side, during Mass! I happened to have a wet/dry shop vac in my car that I'd borrowed from a relative. After Mass I offered my services to Fr. who readily agreed. He removed the Blessed Sacrament to the Sacristy and I came in and cleaned up with the shop vac. That is all. A plumber was called to repair the outdoor drain to avoid a repeat. It was during a priests' retreat, so only one priest was in residence and the normal staff given the week off. But if it is your chapel, crossbro, I'll keep my mouth shut and allow the rug and wooden floor to be ruined.