When we tried to speak with our priest after Mass, he was cold and harsh.
if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it.
But though we, or an Angel from Heaven, preach a Gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you: let him be anathema!
Galatians 1: 8
I left Mass today very confused and disturbed. My husband left with the same impression, only he is prone to hot-headedness, so he was a bit angry as well.
Our priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
Worse, he compared those critical of the Society to Protestants, inferring that this is what Martin Luther did. He said we are wrong to think we can "form our own opinions" about what is happening within the Society.
He also said, and I will try to say it like he did, "Does this mean we should come here if there are clown Masses? No. But we cannot criticize and examine every decision that the superiors make."
Here is my confusion: So it is okay to criticize the Novus Ordo Mass and the conciliar church, but it is not okay to do that within the Society?
It is okay to question the validity of Masses at Novus Ordo, but not so at the chapels within the Society?
It is okay to question and examine the actions and behaviors of Novus Ordo bishops and priests, but not those of the Society?
We are not to have blind obedience to Diocesan priests and bishops but we are in the Society?
When we tried to speak with our priest after Mass, he was cold and harsh.
Worse, we had a large family there that I have never seen before. I doubt they will ever come back. Who would blame them??
This is down right wrong in every way.
Is this what the Society is about---they are the Church? They know everything? Their superiors and priests are beyond reproach?
Here's what I know for certain: Priests are reading the forums and scouring Youtube for videos that people have posted. It wouldn't surprise me if they start asking people to leave because they are causing problems. I also know personally that some priests are confronting people and asking them to choose sides. This is EVIL!!!
We are not far from leaving this chapel. Today was "strike one."
Do they even CARE what they are doing to the faithful???!!!!
I left Mass today very confused and disturbed. My husband left with the same impression, only he is prone to hot-headedness, so he was a bit angry as well.
Our priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
Worse, he compared those critical of the Society to Protestants, inferring that this is what Martin Luther did. He said we are wrong to think we can "form our own opinions" about what is happening within the Society.
I think this is just another example of the SSPX gone wrong. It's "Opus Fellay" at work again, it's become cultish. That priest needs to study what the Church teaches on obedience - and while he's at it, study the quotes of his founder, Archbishop LeFebvre - before he gives garbage sermons like that.
Quote from: CathMomof7I left Mass today very confused and disturbed. My husband left with the same impression, only he is prone to hot-headedness, so he was a bit angry as well.
Our priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
Worse, he compared those critical of the Society to Protestants, inferring that this is what Martin Luther did. He said we are wrong to think we can "form our own opinions" about what is happening within the Society.
This is not Catholicism. It is Stalinism. A priest without jurisdiction can not command you to do anything. And criticizing the SSPX only makes you a Protestant if the SSPX has decided to formalize the arrogance that I have always thought was just below the surface within it and formally declare that it IS the Church.
Quote from: CathMomof7I left Mass today very confused and disturbed. My husband left with the same impression, only he is prone to hot-headedness, so he was a bit angry as well.
Our priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
Worse, he compared those critical of the Society to Protestants, inferring that this is what Martin Luther did. He said we are wrong to think we can "form our own opinions" about what is happening within the Society.
This is not Catholicism. It is Stalinism. A priest without jurisdiction can command you to do anything. And criticizing the SSPX only makes you a Protestant if the SSPX has no decided to formalize the arrogance that I have always thought was just below the surface within it and formally declare that it IS the Church.
The traditional clergy act out of charity. A properly "sent" cleric acts out of justice. We are obliged to obey canonically regular clergy, we have no such obligation to "traditional" clergy. The fact that most people have no notion of this doesn't make it any less true.
I am sure that the "respectable" clergy are following their consciences and have true vocations. But the whole point is that in each case we have to make a judgement, don't we?
We do not have the assurance of the Church that each and every priest or bishop has a true vocation, and has received the requisite training (in fact, we know that many of them didn't receive the requisite training, since they told us so themselves!), and most importantly was received into the ranks of the clergy by the public authority of the Church herself and given a mission.
That is what is lacking. And that is why we have to form our own judgements about each of them and assure ourselves that they are good priests or bishops whom we trust with our souls and those of our children.
It's a state of emergency. Somewhat organised chaos!
Being "sent" is receiving not just the approval of the Church, but the authorisation to act in her name. So these men cannot act in the name of the Church in the way that a priest with a mission does. They cannot issue commands which we must obey; they cannot preach in the technical sense of that word - that is, they can act as informal witnesses to the faith, as any layman does when he professes the faith, but they cannot "promulgate" the faith as a law, which is what a pastor does.
Who was the priest?Quote from: CathMomof7I left Mass today very confused and disturbed. My husband left with the same impression, only he is prone to hot-headedness, so he was a bit angry as well.
Our priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
Worse, he compared those critical of the Society to Protestants, inferring that this is what Martin Luther did. He said we are wrong to think we can "form our own opinions" about what is happening within the Society.
He also said, and I will try to say it like he did, "Does this mean we should come here if there are clown Masses? No. But we cannot criticize and examine every decision that the superiors make."
Here is my confusion: So it is okay to criticize the Novus Ordo Mass and the conciliar church, but it is not okay to do that within the Society?
It is okay to question the validity of Masses at Novus Ordo, but not so at the chapels within the Society?
It is okay to question and examine the actions and behaviors of Novus Ordo bishops and priests, but not those of the Society?
We are not to have blind obedience to Diocesan priests and bishops but we are in the Society?
When we tried to speak with our priest after Mass, he was cold and harsh.
Worse, we had a large family there that I have never seen before. I doubt they will ever come back. Who would blame them??
This is down right wrong in every way.
Is this what the Society is about---they are the Church? They know everything? Their superiors and priests are beyond reproach?
Here's what I know for certain: Priests are reading the forums and scouring Youtube for videos that people have posted. It wouldn't surprise me if they start asking people to leave because they are causing problems. I also know personally that some priests are confronting people and asking them to choose sides. This is EVIL!!!
We are not far from leaving this chapel. Today was "strike one."
Do they even CARE what they are doing to the faithful???!!!!
I think this is just another example of the SSPX gone wrong. It's "Opus Fellay" at work again, it's become cultish. That priest needs to study what the Church teaches on obedience - and while he's at it, study the quotes of his founder, Archbishop LeFebvre - before he gives garbage sermons like that.
Quote from: SigismundQuote from: CathMomof7I left Mass today very confused and disturbed. My husband left with the same impression, only he is prone to hot-headedness, so he was a bit angry as well.
Our priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
Worse, he compared those critical of the Society to Protestants, inferring that this is what Martin Luther did. He said we are wrong to think we can "form our own opinions" about what is happening within the Society.
This is not Catholicism. It is Stalinism. A priest without jurisdiction can not command you to do anything. And criticizing the SSPX only makes you a Protestant if the SSPX has decided to formalize the arrogance that I have always thought was just below the surface within it and formally declare that it IS the Church.
Well said, Sigismund!
Quote from: SpiritusSanctusI think this is just another example of the SSPX gone wrong. It's "Opus Fellay" at work again, it's become cultish. That priest needs to study what the Church teaches on obedience - and while he's at it, study the quotes of his founder, Archbishop LeFebvre - before he gives garbage sermons like that.
"Opus Fellay"... that's it in a nutshell.
Thank you Spiritus Sanctus!
:cowboy:
Quote from: CathMomof7I left Mass today very confused and disturbed. My husband left with the same impression, only he is prone to hot-headedness, so he was a bit angry as well.
Our priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
Worse, he compared those critical of the Society to Protestants, inferring that this is what Martin Luther did. He said we are wrong to think we can "form our own opinions" about what is happening within the Society.
This is not Catholicism. It is Stalinism. A priest without jurisdiction cannot command you to do anything. And criticizing the SSPX only makes you a Protestant if the SSPX has now decided to formalize the arrogance that I have always thought was just below the surface within it and formally declare that it IS the Church.
Quote from: SigismundQuote from: CathMomof7I left Mass today very confused and disturbed. My husband left with the same impression, only he is prone to hot-headedness, so he was a bit angry as well.
Our priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
Worse, he compared those critical of the Society to Protestants, inferring that this is what Martin Luther did. He said we are wrong to think we can "form our own opinions" about what is happening within the Society.
This is not Catholicism. It is Stalinism. A priest without jurisdiction can not command you to do anything. And criticizing the SSPX only makes you a Protestant if the SSPX has decided to formalize the arrogance that I have always thought was just below the surface within it and formally declare that it IS the Church.
Well said, Sigismund!
Our priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
Um...I didn't say that.
Request for assistance from those who love Catholic Tradition‏
These questions, let it be always remembered, are centred upon Maximilian Krah and his meteoric rise in importance in the internal work of the SSPX in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, most specially in relation to finance, administrative “asset management” and legal matters.
These questions are only tangentially and incidentally related to Mgr. Williamson, and whether one likes or dislikes him, agrees or disagrees with him on any subject, is not relevant to the work of the team.
The work of the team is concentrated on why Krah has emerged, what he is involved in, and why he has received patronage at high level. That many reasonable questions, backed by irrefutable evidence in the public domain, have been posed and not responded to only adds to the suspicion that replies have not been forthcoming because the truth would be something less than edifying.
CONCLUSION: Help, however minor it might appear, in relation to any question, in whole or in part, will be most welcome. Remember that: while vital and disturbing questions remain unanswered by those in a position (laymen, laywomen, priest or bishop) to furnish those answers to the faithful who are the raison d’être of the SSPX, Catholic Tradition remains at risk. Vatican II was not the cause of subversive Modernism, but the long-prepared fruit of subversion by Modernists working in the dark at all levels of the Church.
Quote from: OPOur priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
I read this to my 19 year old daughter. She was shocked. She suggested that if this ever happened at the SSPX chapel we attend about twice a month she would stand up immediately and tell father (during his sermon) that this is evil.
If a "superior" (and please note that there are no SSPX priests who have jurisdiction over the lay faithful, so neither he nor Bishop Fellay is a legitimate superior of any of the laity) commands us to believe what is opposed to reason (e.g., "black is white") then he is a cult leader, a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Has it really come down to this? Is the SSPX being transformed into a cult? Just yesterday I would never have believed it. I am beginning to become unsure.
Has anyone ever seen any published accounts of the Society? I don't mean names on a register but actual figures. The word MONEY came up on another forum today as the reason for a lot of policy and we tend to forget the power of money. For example, what is the justification for the showpiece seminary now being planned in Virginia?
and then Fr. La Roux mentioned the beautiful scenery of Virginia as something desirable.
I'm sorry to hear about the priest acting so rudely. Has he been unpleasant on other occasions?
If you left the SSPX chapel, is there a sede chapel or an independent chapel that you could assist?
Or would you become a home aloner? In the absence of any traditional chapels, this would be an acceptable alternative.
Quote from: WessexHas anyone ever seen any published accounts of the Society? I don't mean names on a register but actual figures. The word MONEY came up on another forum today as the reason for a lot of policy and we tend to forget the power of money. For example, what is the justification for the showpiece seminary now being planned in Virginia?
The old one is not large enough, and all attempts to purchase empty, existing seminaries were met with No. This firsthand from the [very kindly]person spearheading the effort, and then Fr. La Roux mentioned the beautiful scenery of Virginia as something desirable. The old house will become a retreat center.
Quote from: TKGSQuote from: OPOur priest today publicly chastised those of us who visit internet forums and criticize the superiors of the Society. He gave a sermon on Obedience as taught by St. Ignatius. He even went so far as to say "if you superiors tell you black is white then you must believe it." He said, also, that he has been to these forums and read some of the comments criticizing Bishop Fellay and Fr. Rostand, and that those who are doing this are no true Catholics, but Catholics without charity.
I read this to my 19 year old daughter. She was shocked. She suggested that if this ever happened at the SSPX chapel we attend about twice a month she would stand up immediately and tell father (during his sermon) that this is evil.
If a "superior" (and please note that there are no SSPX priests who have jurisdiction over the lay faithful, so neither he nor Bishop Fellay is a legitimate superior of any of the laity) commands us to believe what is opposed to reason (e.g., "black is white") then he is a cult leader, a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Has it really come down to this? Is the SSPX being transformed into a cult? Just yesterday I would never have believed it. I am beginning to become unsure.
I am sure there must have been be a quiproquo somewhere. St Ignatius in his Rules for Thinking with the Church indeed did write:
Thirteenth Rule. To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it, believing that between Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, His Bride, there is the same Spirit which governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. Because by the same Spirit and our Lord Who gave the ten Commandments, our holy Mother the Church is directed and governed.
A Text of Cajetan's on Prayer
"... since it is matter reserved for God -- the removal from this world of a still believing but incorrigible Pope."
Quote from: ElizabethQuote from: WessexHas anyone ever seen any published accounts of the Society? I don't mean names on a register but actual figures. The word MONEY came up on another forum today as the reason for a lot of policy and we tend to forget the power of money. For example, what is the justification for the showpiece seminary now being planned in Virginia?
The old one is not large enough, and all attempts to purchase empty, existing seminaries were met with No. This firsthand from the [very kindly]person spearheading the effort, and then Fr. La Roux mentioned the beautiful scenery of Virginia as something desirable. The old house will become a retreat center.
My SSPX priest told there was no reason for this new seminary. They have lots of property in Winona and could easily add on. They need more dorms and another Chapel there. The true reasons for the Virginia seminary haven't been revealed yet. Of course, the fact someone gave them the property, and several million to start is one reason. Very wasteful, however. Not a good use of resources, I don't think.
$30 million! I can't believe it! Has anyone seen the land and the blue print? Is it really written in stone? IF SSPX is taken over one way or another be it N.O. or any new order, this $30 mill. project will not be the SSPX that you know to be SSPX. The New Order is all under restructuring. It means that all churches will be decreased by 20%. That means closures or mergers. IF SSPX goes to N.O. it would lose all their properties to N.O.. IF SSPX makes their own split, again, this $30 mill. project belongs to WHO? Maybe it is a hoax, because we don't have those many interested in being priest. .
One good thing for the seminarians will be access to world class sacred art and music in DC-I believe it was Fr. La Roux who mentioned this.