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Author Topic: Non Una cuм and the Resistance  (Read 9290 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2018, 06:13:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on April 21, 2018, 08:20:01 PM
    Really? John Paul I even? The fact that he was killed off suggests he was not a villain...

    Have you ever looked into him as a Bishop?  He was about as modernist as they came.  So he rubbed some of the Vatican Bank mafioso the wrong way.  Does that make him a potential new St. Pius X?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #76 on: April 22, 2018, 06:14:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on April 21, 2018, 09:24:19 PM
    I could see both hypotheses as probable. The Siri argument has more weight to it than at first glimpse. But it seems rational that Paul IV was validly elected pope. Not sure. He's not pope now. That's all I know.

    Unless you believe the guy here who says that Paul VI is still alive.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #77 on: April 22, 2018, 06:37:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on April 21, 2018, 10:46:14 PM
    Right, so basically what he’s saying is that there is unanimity among Novus Ordo High-High-Anglicans that Frank is their pope and that they would rather have a fake pope than be Catholic.  They would rather be in communion with heretics than admit that sedes were right.
    A slight change to your post:
    Right, so basically what he’s saying is that there is unanimity among Novus Ordo High-High-Anglicans and every other stripe of Novus Ordo Protestantism that Frank is their pope and that they would rather have a fake pope than be Catholic.  They would rather be in communion with heretics than admit that sedes were right.

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    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #78 on: April 22, 2018, 07:20:43 AM »
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    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #79 on: April 22, 2018, 07:25:52 AM »
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #80 on: April 22, 2018, 10:27:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 21, 2018, 03:50:15 PM
    There are currently 1.3 BILLION Catholics in the Church.

    I'm guessing there are approximately 40,000 sedevacantists on the planet +/- (and that might be a generous number).

    That's 32,500 Catholics who accept Francis as Pope for every sedevacantist who denies it.

    That comes to 0.0000307%

    Pretend that's 32,500 grains of sugar vs 1 grain of sugar.

    That would barely register as a trace, or perhaps not at all.

    No, there is pretty much unanimity.
    Most of those Catholics aren't even Catholic by Vatican 2 standards. If you look at national surveys and compare the percentage who are "Catholic" to the percentage who "believe in a deity", generally the latter is far smaller than the former in Catholic countries. What this means is that a very large percentage of "Catholics" just call themselves that because they were baptised and see it as part of their identity, but they don't even believe in God.

    And then if you look at mass attendance rates, most of the ones who do believe in God never attend mass. If you look at Catholic views on abortion, fornication, etc. you'll find denial of basic Catholic dogma even by mass-goers.

    There may be 1.3 Billion who call themselves Catholic on earth, but there are probably only a few million who are actually Catholic even by Vatican 2 modernist standards.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #81 on: April 22, 2018, 11:10:30 AM »
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    • 2Vermont,
    If the only mass available was an una cuм, would you go?  If not, how do you give yourself a dispensation from the 3rd Commandment?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #82 on: April 22, 2018, 05:58:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 22, 2018, 11:10:30 AM
    2Vermont,
    If the only mass available was an una cuм, would you go?  If not, how do you give yourself a dispensation from the 3rd Commandment?
    The only mass available to me is una cuм...the Novus Ordo and I don't attend.  In fact, I'm pretty sure all traditionalists (none sede and sede alike) wouldn't/don't go in that same set of circuмstances. How do any traditionalists who do not go to the Novus Ordo get a dispensation from the 3rd Commandment? 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #83 on: April 22, 2018, 07:58:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 22, 2018, 06:37:13 AM
    They would rather be in communion with heretics than admit that sedes were right.

    At the end of the day, I could hardly care less about being right or about being wrong.  I just want to be Catholic and to defend the honor of Holy Mother Church.  Whether Bergoglio, speaking personally, is Pope or is not Pope or is a Reptilian Space Alien or a Holographic Projection, I could hardly care LESS.  So long as the honor of the Church is upheld and defended.

    And my crusade is against people who claim that the HOLY Catholic Church can become corrupt in her Magisterium and Universal Discipline.  If those two become corrupt, then the Church as a whole is corrupt and the Church is meaningless and the Church is worthless.  That makes the Church an OBSTACLE to salvation, something from which we must REMOVE ourselves in order to be saved rather than the other way around.  Absit.  I find this absolutely repugnant and I find it horrifying that Catholics could keep saying such things.  I would rather attend Clown Masses and hold hands while singing Kumbaya than to think this of the Holy Catholic Church.

    I agree with the Dimond Brothers that this Conciliar Church is in fact the Whore of Babylon, drunk with the blood of the martyrs, from which the faithful are enjoined to remove themselves.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #84 on: April 23, 2018, 12:42:12 AM »
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    • I think we can all agree that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a most sacred action. It is the only way on earth we can truly possess Our Lord Jesus Christ. If one holds the Pope in true contempt and thinks of him as a heretic outside the Church and a true enemy of the Faith, then naming him in the canon would seem as a stain (at the very least) to the sacredness of the Liturgy. Mons. Des Lauriers thought of it as that, a stain. It is a contradictory position, because what we would be saying in the setting of the Holy Sacrifice is that we are una cuм...in union with a heretic and under his authority.

    It does not make sense, unless one fully recognizes the Pope of Rome as such, this is, the true Vicar of Christ on earth and remains in full communion with him with a good Roman Catholic submissive disposition. Both Masses non una cuм and una cuм are, I think, valid, but I don't believe the latter is reasonable for R&R priests, in a particular, when including the name of the "heretic" is quite meaningless. We are saying at least externally that our souls are in union with an enemy of the Faith. There seems to be just something wrong about that.

    Faith cannot contradict reason.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #85 on: April 23, 2018, 01:14:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 22, 2018, 07:58:50 PM
    At the end of the day, I could hardly care less about being right or about being wrong.  I just want to be Catholic and to defend the honor of Holy Mother Church.  Whether Bergoglio, speaking personally, is Pope or is not Pope or is a Reptilian Space Alien or a Holographic Projection, I could hardly care LESS.  So long as the honor of the Church is upheld and defended.

    And my crusade is against people who claim that the HOLY Catholic Church can become corrupt in her Magisterium and Universal Discipline.  If those two become corrupt, then the Church as a whole is corrupt and the Church is meaningless and the Church is worthless.  That makes the Church an OBSTACLE to salvation, something from which we must REMOVE ourselves in order to be saved rather than the other way around.  Absit.  I find this absolutely repugnant and I find it horrifying that Catholics could keep saying such things.  I would rather attend Clown Masses and hold hands while singing Kumbaya than to think this of the Holy Catholic Church.

    Well said  :applause:
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #86 on: April 23, 2018, 04:31:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 22, 2018, 05:58:15 PM
    The only mass available to me is una cuм...the Novus Ordo and I don't attend.
    Correct the sentence structure. What exactly are you saying here?

    Una cuм doesn't nullify the Catholicity of Tridentine Mass and the Sacrament at (neo) SSPX chapels. An una cuм Tridentine Catholic Mass is still Catholic, therefore, if it's within your proximity, and it's the only Mass available to you, you're obligated to assist in fulfillment of the 3rd Commandment.


    Quote
    2Vermont says:
    How do any traditionalists who do not go to the Novus Ordo get a dispensation from the 3rd Commandment?
    The Novus Ordo isn't a Catholic Mass. Catholics are obligated to assist only the Catholic Mass, and if it's not available to them, the dispensation is granted, ipso facto, due to their circuмstance.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #87 on: April 23, 2018, 06:50:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Croix de Fer on April 23, 2018, 04:31:49 AM
    Correct the sentence structure. What exactly are you saying here?

    Una cuм doesn't nullify the Catholicity of Tridentine Mass and the Sacrament at (neo) SSPX chapels. An una cuм Tridentine Catholic Mass is still Catholic, therefore, if it's within your proximity, and it's the only Mass available to you, you're obligated to assist in fulfillment of the 3rd Commandment.

    The Novus Ordo isn't a Catholic Mass. Catholics are obligated to assist only the Catholic Mass, and if it's not available to them, the dispensation is granted, ipso facto, due to their circuмstance.
    The only mass available to me (on a weekly basis) is the Novus Ordo.  I don't attend it.
    As for it not being a Catholic mass, I agree.  However, according to the men who most traditionalists call(ed) "pope", it is a Catholic mass promulgated by the Catholic Church.    
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #88 on: April 23, 2018, 09:00:21 AM »
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    The only mass available to me is una cuм
    So you attend the una cuм or not?  I'm sorry, but it's not clear to me.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #89 on: April 23, 2018, 09:45:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Croix de Fer on April 23, 2018, 04:31:49 AM
    Correct the sentence structure. What exactly are you saying here?

    Una cuм doesn't nullify the Catholicity of Tridentine Mass and the Sacrament at (neo) SSPX chapels. An una cuм Tridentine Catholic Mass is still Catholic, therefore, if it's within your proximity, and it's the only Mass available to you, you're obligated to assist in fulfillment of the 3rd Commandment.

    I agree with this.  Furthermore, if there's a traditional Eastern Rite Mass (e.g. not something like the Novus Ordized Maronite Liturgy), one must assist at that.  I've even attended a Motu Mass ... when travelling ... offered by a priest whose orders were unknown to me.  I just did not receive Communion.  Now, the dogmatic Sedevacantists would argue that one cannot be in Communion with heretics, even if the Rite itself is Catholic ... e.g. such as going to an Orthodox church with Traditional Eastern Liturgy.  But I do not see it as the same thing, since the Orthodox do not profess Catholicism, whereas the Motu folks do.
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