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Author Topic: Non Una cuм and the Resistance  (Read 9242 times)

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Offline Samuel

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Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2018, 05:53:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 21, 2018, 05:43:10 PM
    Ladislaus-

    You want to defend sedevacantism, and there is nothing that I can say that is going to penetrate.

    I know this in advance.

    This tells me I am wasting my time addressing you, so I will make but one more response before tuning out (which is really more for the rest of the forum, than for yourself), and watching this thread run to another 100+ pages:

    Keep in mind that the words which follow are Billot's, not mine:

    The adhesion of the universal Church will be always, in itself, an infallible sign of the legitimacy of a determined Pontiff, and therefore also of the existence of all the conditions required for legitimacy itself

    Now, I understand that is fatal to sedevcantism, and you are compelled to find some means of explaining it away, or abandon sedevacantism.

    But for the few objective readers who may be following, I leave this there for them as an anchor to hang on to, noting in closing that this opinion of Billot is not unique to him, but is in fact the most common opinion of the theologians who have addressed the issue, for the simple reason that if the Church unanimously adhered to a false Pope, the Church would have defected, and that in turn (by directly contradicting a defined dogma) would prove the Catholic religion utterly false.

    I leave you to your ruminations.

    Semper Idem,
    Sean Johnson

    Sean, don't waste your time on Ladislaus. Others have tried it and failed. See Provers 29:9.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #46 on: April 21, 2018, 05:55:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on April 21, 2018, 05:51:25 PM
    All of them are members of the Catholic Church, while the "few" (Traditional) consider the "many" (Conciliar) bad Catholics and vice versa.

    Billot's argument was based on "Catholics", not on "good Catholics".
    So you believe that those who do not hold the Catholic Faith whole and entire are members of the Catholic Church?
    Oh wait, that would explain why you think Bergoglio is Catholic and still pope too.
    Nevermind.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #47 on: April 21, 2018, 05:56:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 21, 2018, 05:50:37 PM
    No, you won't try to directly refute me because you CAN'T.  I have already explained how Billot's principle does not apply to the present crisis because 95% of these Conciliarists ARE NOT EVEN CATHOLIC.  That would be like the 90%+ Arians accepting an Arian pope.

    Not to mention, as I have also pointed out, ALL of the SSPX bishops have at one point or another questioned the legitimacy of the V2 Popes.  That's like publicly questioning the Holy Trinity (since papal legitimacy is classified as a DOGMATIC FACT).  No different than actually denying it.
    Exactly.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #48 on: April 21, 2018, 05:58:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 21, 2018, 05:43:10 PM
    You want to defend sedevacantism, and there is nothing that I can say that is going to penetrate.

    And, no, I am not interested in defending sedevacantism.  There are differing theories about what happens to a heretical pope.

    What I AM interested in doing is to defend the Catholic Magisterium and the indefectibility thereof, along with the indefectibility of the Church's Universal Discipline ... and the general Holiness of the Church.  Unlike yourself, evidently, I believe in one HOLY Catholic Church.  Does that expression ring a bell?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #49 on: April 21, 2018, 05:59:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on April 21, 2018, 05:51:25 PM
    All of them are members of the Catholic Church, while the "few" (Traditional) consider the "many" (Conciliar) bad Catholics and vice versa.

    Billot's argument was based on "Catholics", not on "good Catholics".

    No they're not.  Heresy excludes from membership in the Church.  Just ask St. Robert Bellarmine ... whose opinions you seem to consider of no account.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #50 on: April 21, 2018, 06:00:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on April 21, 2018, 05:53:13 PM
    Sean, don't waste your time on Ladislaus. Others have tried it and failed. See Provers 29:9.

    Yeah, they fail miserably in refuting my arguments.
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    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #51 on: April 21, 2018, 06:01:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 21, 2018, 05:48:25 PM
    Sean, the truly objective readers (not the dogmatic sedeplenists, anti-sedevacantists like yourself) will see that "Universal Church" does not include the large percentage of Novus Ordites who do not hold nor profess the Catholic Faith.  Therefore, your so-called moral unanimity defense for claiming that the heretic currently in the Chair of Peter has to be legitimate doesn't hold any water.

    This is just absolute nonsense.

    Do you really like to pretend that the vast majority of Catholics in the 50's and 60's did not "profess the Catholic Faith"? And that therefore cardinal Billot's argument did not apply?

    Where were you back then? And where were the other 0.0000000001% of "good Catholics" when pope Paul VI was elected and accepted by all those "non professing" Catholics?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #52 on: April 21, 2018, 06:04:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on April 21, 2018, 06:01:33 PM
    This is just absolute nonsense.

    Do you really like to pretend that the vast majority of Catholics in the 50's and 60's did not "profess the Catholic Faith"? And that therefore cardinal Billot's argument did not apply?

    Where were you back then? And where were the other 0.0000000001% of "good Catholics" when pope Paul VI was elected and accepted by all those "non professing" Catholics?
    Wait, we're talking about Paul VI now?  I actually believe his election was probably valid.  I also believe he lost the papacy when he promulgated and taught the false religion of Vatican II to the Universal Church.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #53 on: April 21, 2018, 06:06:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 21, 2018, 06:04:56 PM
    I actually believe his election was probably valid.

    I don't.  I think that Siri still held claim to the Holy See.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #54 on: April 21, 2018, 06:07:10 PM »
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    • Wheee....another anti-sedevacantist thread!    :jumping2:

    Let's see how many pages this will go!   :fryingpan:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #55 on: April 21, 2018, 06:07:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Samuel on April 21, 2018, 06:01:33 PM
    Do you really like to pretend that the vast majority of Catholics in the 50's and 60's did not "profess the Catholic Faith"? And that therefore cardinal Billot's argument did not apply?

    Very few of them believed in the dogma EENS and were not religious indifferentists ... just ask Father Feeney.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #56 on: April 21, 2018, 06:08:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 21, 2018, 06:06:15 PM
    I don't.  I think that Siri still held claim to the Holy See.
    I guess that's always a possibility.  Just not enough evidence for me.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #57 on: April 21, 2018, 06:09:16 PM »
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    • So, of these Resistance priests "plural" about whom you write, can you name names besides Father Ringrose ... who do not put Francis' name in the Canon?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #58 on: April 21, 2018, 06:11:44 PM »
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    • Oh noes!  The down thumbs !     :laugh2:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #59 on: April 21, 2018, 06:11:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 21, 2018, 06:08:06 PM
    I guess that's always a possibility.  Just not enough evidence for me.

    As with all these things, we're mostly dealing with probabilities at this time ... until the Church resolves this crisis once and for all, and I consider it extremely probable ... even if there isn't the proverbial smoking gun evidence.  If I had to bet my life savings (well, even if they were rather substantial) about whether or not the Siri Thesis is true, I would have to side in its favor.

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