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Author Topic: Non Una cuм and the Resistance  (Read 7913 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2018, 02:40:30 PM »
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  • The example of the GWS is inapplicable:

    1) Precisely because the Church was divided in assenting to the claims of three papal claimants, none of the claimants' "papacies" ever attained the status of dogmatic fact.
    There was, at a moment prior to the Western Schism, one papal claimant recognized by all as the true pope. Just because later there were three, does not change it on the grounds Sean posits. 
    The application of the GWS was to show that there were canonized saints who attended Masses where the wrong pope or no pope was mentioned in the canon. If one were to side with St. Robert Bellarmine in believing that a manifest, formal heretic loses office, they would still be Catholic. They might even be right. But a dogmatic sedeplenist would rather follow a Buddhist pope than admit that an opposing view could be right. 
    The official position of the SSPX had always been that a formal heretic loses office of the papacy. Indeed, even Bishop Fellay has admitted that it may be possible to say one day that Bergoglio never was pope. 
    If one were to compile a list of all the people who have doubted the post-conciliar popes on up to Bergoglio, it would be nearly every single Traditionalist priest and bishop (Fr. Gruner, Fr. Kramer, Bishop Williamson, Bishop Fellay, Canonist Fr. Hesse et. al.) on one side and Sean Johnson, Fr. Pfeiffer and the Fraternity of St. Peter on the other. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #16 on: April 21, 2018, 02:53:13 PM »
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  • NB:

    It has been 16 months since this article was originally published on SP.  

    Reconsider this excerpt, and think about the case of Fr. Ringrose as you do:

    Those few Resistance priests who, on the one hand deny being sedevacantists, and on the other reject Francis’ authority and jurisdiction, and refuse to mention his name in the Canon, are incoherent to say the least.  One must look upon their position with a certain degree of suspicion.  They are sedevacantists in fact, if not by intention, and seem to be in transit to a conscious recognition of that position (even if they deny it today).

    As a friend wrote to me:

    The ‘non una cuм’ position “resembles a kind of hideous misery of dogmatic sedevacantism, which makes it possible to present a less frightening face to souls disturbed by the current crisis of the church but which, in the end, draws them to the terrain of hard sedevacantism.”

    I quite agree
    I happen to agree as well.  Having said that, I would argue that there are a number of traditionalists who, although they include the name of Francis in the canon, don't act as if they truly believe he is the pope of the Catholic Church.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #17 on: April 21, 2018, 03:03:24 PM »
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  • Just like during the Great Schism, there is positive doubt regarding the identity of the current pope. Anyone who takes the matter of Bergoglio being pope or not being pope as dogmatic, arrogates to himself a power that he simply doesn’t have. There is sufficient case for positive doubt. The theory of loss/non-loss of papal office of formal and manifest heretics has been debated and the Church has allowed the debate for centuries without stepping in to pronounce either way. Those who carry this to the point of dogma accusing the other side of heresy or schism could not truly call themselves Traditional Catholics. Bishop Williamson himself has admitted that it is possible that Benedict XVI is pope and admitted this in his video in Canada with then Fr. Zendejas and Fr. Gruner present. The positive doubt is present and only a fool would deny it.

    THIS ^^^

    And if you don't at least have a positive doubt, then you have no business being a Traditional Catholic, for you are a schismatic.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #18 on: April 21, 2018, 03:49:54 PM »
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  • Quote
    Would you attend a non una cuм mass if it were the only mass available to you?  Or would you stay home?
    Your question assumes we have a choice.  We do not.  We all must, under pain of sin, attend mass said by a valid priest, on all sundays/holydays.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #19 on: April 21, 2018, 03:50:15 PM »
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  • The claim that the Church is unanimous is false. Completely false. Countless lay Catholics, priests and bishops consider Bergoglio doubtful at best. The most recent case is the retired bishop of Corpus Christi, Bishop Gracida.
    There are currently 1.3 BILLION Catholics in the Church.

    I'm guessing there are approximately 40,000 sedevacantists on the planet +/- (and that might be a generous number).

    That's 32,500 Catholics who accept Francis as Pope for every sedevacantist who denies it.

    That comes to 0.0000307%

    Pretend that's 32,500 grains of sugar vs 1 grain of sugar.

    That would barely register as a trace, or perhaps not at all.

    No, there is pretty much unanimity.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #20 on: April 21, 2018, 03:55:08 PM »
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  • There was, at a moment prior to the Western Schism, one papal claimant recognized by all as the true pope. Just because later there were three, does not change it on the grounds Sean posits.
    The application of the GWS was to show that there were canonized saints who attended Masses where the wrong pope or no pope was mentioned in the canon. If one were to side with St. Robert Bellarmine in believing that a manifest, formal heretic loses office, they would still be Catholic. They might even be right. But a dogmatic sedeplenist would rather follow a Buddhist pope than admit that an opposing view could be right.
    The official position of the SSPX had always been that a formal heretic loses office of the papacy. Indeed, even Bishop Fellay has admitted that it may be possible to say one day that Bergoglio never was pope.
    If one were to compile a list of all the people who have doubted the post-conciliar popes on up to Bergoglio, it would be nearly every single Traditionalist priest and bishop (Fr. Gruner, Fr. Kramer, Bishop Williamson, Bishop Fellay, Canonist Fr. Hesse et. al.) on one side and Sean Johnson, Fr. Pfeiffer and the Fraternity of St. Peter on the other.

    I see you are sinking into sedevacantism.

    I will pray for you.

    Please pray for me.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #21 on: April 21, 2018, 04:18:23 PM »
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  • Your question assumes we have a choice.  We do not.  We all must, under pain of sin, attend mass said by a valid priest, on all sundays/holydays.
    You avoided answering my question.  Would you attend a non una cuм mass if there was no other option?  Would you attend an Orthodox liturgy (since they do have valid priests) if there was no other option? Or how about a Novus Ordo mass assuming the priest was valid?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #22 on: April 21, 2018, 04:30:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    You avoided answering my question.  Would you attend a non una cuм mass if there was no other option?  Would you attend an Orthodox liturgy (since they do have valid priests) if there was no other option?
    I didn't avoid the question, I answered generally.  Non-una cuм/ una-cuм...I don't care.  If the priest is valid and he says a valid TLM, I would attend.  I don't think we can attend the Orthodox...don't know much about it.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #23 on: April 21, 2018, 04:35:26 PM »
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  • I didn't avoid the question, I answered generally.  Non-una cuм/ una-cuм...I don't care.  If the priest is valid and he says a valid TLM, I would attend.  I don't think we can attend the Orthodox...don't know much about it.
    OK, fair enough...at least you are consistent.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #24 on: April 21, 2018, 04:37:23 PM »
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  • There are currently 1.3 BILLION Catholics in the Church.

    I'm guessing there are approximately 40,000 sedevacantists on the planet +/- (and that might be a generous number).

    That's 32,500 Catholics who accept Francis as Pope for every sedevacantist who denies it.

    That comes to 0.0000307%

    Pretend that's 32,500 grains of sugar vs 1 grain of sugar.

    That would barely register as a trace, or perhaps not at all.

    No, there is pretty much unanimity.
    Funny, I always thought the definition of unanimity meant agreement among all the people of a group....as in 100%.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #25 on: April 21, 2018, 04:38:50 PM »
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  • I see you are sinking into sedevacantism.

    I will pray for you.

    Please pray for me.
    Anything, but sedevacantism! :jumping2:
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #26 on: April 21, 2018, 04:48:53 PM »
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  • Funny, I always thought the definition of unanimity meant agreement among all the people of a group....as in 100%.

    When theologians speak of "unanimity," they are considering moral unanimity, not mathematical unanimity.

    This is because the latter can never be proven or demonstrated, while the former is easily ascertainable (e.g., by observing the percentage referenced in the previous post).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #27 on: April 21, 2018, 04:54:56 PM »
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  • There are currently 1.3 BILLION Catholics in the Church.

    I'm guessing there are approximately 40,000 sedevacantists on the planet +/- (and that might be a generous number).

    That's 32,500 Catholics who accept Francis as Pope for every sedevacantist who denies it.

    That comes to 0.0000307%

    Pretend that's 32,500 grains of sugar vs 1 grain of sugar.

    That would barely register as a trace, or perhaps not at all.

    No, there is pretty much unanimity.

    Those same numbers, with only a fractional uptick, accept the teachings of Vatican II.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #28 on: April 21, 2018, 05:08:36 PM »
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  • Anything, but sedevacantism! :jumping2:

    Yeah, they would rather believe that the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church have defected and become gravely corrupted than entertain the possibility that the V2 papal claimants are illegitimate.  Defend the honor of Bergoglio while dishonoring the Church.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #29 on: April 21, 2018, 05:15:26 PM »
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  • Those same numbers accept the teachings of Vatican II.

    I see the point you are making, but it is slightly out of place:

    The issue in question is whether a unanimous recognition of Francis as Pope exists (i.e., an argument of fact), which would trigger Billot's conclusion.

    It clearly does, since 99.9999693% recognize his papacy.

    That 0.0000307% of those calling themselves Catholic dispute this in no way suffices to disqualify a conclusion of unanimity, since the unanimity being spoken of is moral unanimity, not mathematical unanimity.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."