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Author Topic: Non Una cuм and the Resistance  (Read 9209 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
« Reply #90 on: April 23, 2018, 10:17:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2018, 09:00:21 AM
    So you attend the una cuм or not?  I'm sorry, but it's not clear to me.
    Maybe because you're not really asking me what you want to ask me..which I suspect is:  would I attend una cuм?    I don't attend una cuм and I prefer non una cuм.  Having said that I have no other una cuм options other than the Novus Ordo.
    As for dispensations, none of us have dispensations from not attending the Novus Ordo ... ESPECIALLY if one believes Francis and his predecessors are true Catholic popes.  If we are all honest here, we all have made private judgments and have acted accordingly.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #91 on: April 23, 2018, 11:45:51 AM »
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    As for dispensations, none of us have dispensations from not attending the Novus Ordo
    The Novus Ordo is not required to be attended under pain of sin.  Quo Primum requires attendance at the TLM under pain of sin.  It's pretty easy.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #92 on: April 23, 2018, 11:54:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2018, 11:45:51 AM
    The Novus Ordo is not required to be attended under pain of sin.  Quo Primum requires attendance at the TLM under pain of sin.  It's pretty easy.
    Does it?  Could you quote that passage?  I thought it merely stated that no priest could be compelled to say another rite.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #93 on: April 23, 2018, 12:19:47 PM »
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    • I can’t agree with this at all. If you are not sure enough to receive Holy Communion then you shouldn’t be at the Mass. The only reason I could see for not receiving Holy Communion would be if for fear of receiving a host dubiously consecrated in the New Mass, but I would never attend a Mass that is held in the same place as a Novus Ordo on principle. 
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    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #94 on: April 23, 2018, 12:20:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 23, 2018, 10:17:40 AM
    As for dispensations, none of us have dispensations from not attending the Novus Ordo ... ESPECIALLY if one believes Francis and his predecessors are true Catholic popes.  If we are all honest here, we all have made private judgments and have acted accordingly.  

    No dispensation is needed for avoiding the Novus Ordo because it's not Catholic. It doesn't matter if there are trads who believe Frank is the pope. They still don't need a dispensation to avoid a non-Catholic service that is the Novus Ordo Missae.

    You've been told this a number of times, now.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #95 on: April 23, 2018, 12:21:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2018, 11:45:51 AM
    The Novus Ordo is not required to be attended under pain of sin.  Quo Primum requires attendance at the TLM under pain of sin.  It's pretty easy.
    For many years, most Priests were barred from celebrating the Latin Mass and there are still restrictions in place regarding it. Why would a true Pope deny his flock the true Mass they must attend under pain of mortal sin? Why would he deceive them into thinking they did not need to attend the Latin Mass?
    Basically, your theory posits that V2 Popes were at the same time valid Popes but also formal heretics and very evil people intending to deceive Catholics worldwide. Does it not start to push the limits of the Indefectibility of the Church 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #96 on: April 23, 2018, 12:22:15 PM »
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    • Ask and ye shall receive...


    We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence, (In other words, the whole church)

    and We order them in virtue of holy obedience (sin of disobedience is in play here)

    to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us (Pope orders the Church to use ONLY his missal)

    and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal.
    (the novus ordo introduced new ceremonies and new prayers, and also deleted ones from the 1962 missal.  All of this is not allowed, is illegal and sinful).
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #97 on: April 23, 2018, 02:06:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: King Wenceslas on April 23, 2018, 01:18:57 PM
    Divide and conquer. For what ever reason God is allowing Satan to even destroy the faithful Catholics now. The Church is disappearing.


    I agree, for the most part. We can still keep our faith with great effort, even though there are so many who sow division among traditional Catholics (sedes being the main ones). God is allowing it. Maybe to test our faith - I don't really know. 

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #98 on: April 23, 2018, 02:54:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Croix de Fer on April 23, 2018, 12:20:10 PM
    No dispensation is needed for avoiding the Novus Ordo because it's not Catholic. It doesn't matter if there are trads who believe Frank is the pope. They still don't need a dispensation to avoid a non-Catholic service that is the Novus Ordo Missae.

    You've been told this a number of times, now.
    Says who?  According to the "pope" of the Catholic Church, the Novus Ordo IS CATHOLIC.  The point I am trying to make is that none of us have any declaration from the Church stating that the Novus Ordo mass is not Catholic and therefore we can skip it.

    As trads, we make private judgments ALL.THE.TIME.  That's why it's silly for one group to wag their fingers at another group for making a different private judgment that they think is wrong.
     
    To be clear, I totally agree with you about the NO not being Catholic, so I'm not sure why you're saying "you've been told this a number of times now".
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #99 on: April 23, 2018, 02:57:46 PM »
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    The point I am trying to make is that none of us have any declaration from the Church stating that the Novus Ordo mass is not Catholic and therefore we can skip it. 
    We have a declaration in Quo Primum that it is illegal and sinful.  Don’t need a declaration that it’s not Catholic.  
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #100 on: April 23, 2018, 03:04:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2018, 02:57:46 PM
    We have a declaration in Quo Primum that it is illegal and sinful.  Don’t need a declaration that it’s not Catholic.  
    Specifically where does it state that a mass promulgated by the Catholic Church and a supposed Catholic pope is illegal and sinful? 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #101 on: April 23, 2018, 03:06:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2018, 12:22:15 PM
    Ask and ye shall receive...


    We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence, (In other words, the whole church)

    and We order them in virtue of holy obedience (sin of disobedience is in play here)

    to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us (Pope orders the Church to use ONLY his missal)

    and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal.
    (the novus ordo introduced new ceremonies and new prayers, and also deleted ones from the 1962 missal.  All of this is not allowed, is illegal and sinful).
    Interestingly enough, this does not mention popes.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #102 on: April 23, 2018, 03:10:08 PM »
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    Interestingly enough, this does not mention popes.
    Wilful ignorance.

    ...or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be...or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #103 on: April 23, 2018, 03:21:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2018, 03:10:08 PM
    Wilful ignorance.

    ...or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be...or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence
    And yet he still doesn't mention the most important person in rank: pope.  He mentions "cardinals" but not "popes".  It is much more likely that he wasn't including future popes for the very reason that popes are supreme legislators for ecclesiastical law and they have the power to change laws made by their predecessors.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Non Una cuм and the Resistance
    « Reply #104 on: April 23, 2018, 03:26:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 23, 2018, 03:10:08 PM
    Wilful ignorance.

    ...or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be...or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence
    Except Pope St. Pius V and his direct successor both altered the mass. 
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