Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Last Tradhican on June 05, 2018, 07:53:49 AM
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Went to the mass at the SSPX Sanford Florida Priory on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and all three days the priest did not do the Leonine prayers after the Low Mass, instead he did some weather prayer in Latin that I could not understand (I was told that is what it was). In the Sunday Low mass there were no Leonine Prayers after mass nor the weather blessing, so I assume the problem is the Leonine prayer. The prior is French, so I ask, do they omit the Leonine Prayers in France? Why don't they do both the Leonine Prayers and the weather blessing? The Leonine prayers take like 3 minutes and the blessing maybe took 1 minute.
I remember that priory got hit by a hurricane last year, maybe it was because they are not doing the Leonine Prayers?
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First goes the Leonine Prayers, then the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, then strip down the Offertory, well the Novus Ordo has more scripture ...
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Good you asked the priest.
Of course, for the American (primitive) Catholic to dare approach a French SSPX priest with such a question is an insult.
You should be happy you didn't get your face slapped. :chef:
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Of course, for the American (primitive) Catholic to dare approach a French SSPX priest with such a question is an insult.
Less than 4% of Catholics in France attend mass. In the USA, mass attendance is 24%. Why emulate the French system that bought such results? The French model should rather be an example of what to avoid, and the USA model an example of how the downfall was better avoided (attendance in the USA was 80% in the 1950's, so the current 24% is not a model of perfection, but rather just a model of how the downfall was better avoided that in France).
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Less than 4% of Catholics in France attend mass. In the USA, mass attendance is 24%. Why emulate the French system that bought such results? The French model should rather be an example of what to avoid, and the USA model an example of how the downfall was better avoided (attendance in the USA was 80% in the 1950's, so the current 24% is not a model of perfection, but rather just a model of how the downfall was better avoided that in France).
Facts don't apply.
From the eyes of a French Society priest, we Americans are primitive.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OrOXCEXfXfc/TgxuMDkJHvI/AAAAAAAABc8/c3vLTpmBo9U/s1600/native-americans-01.jpg)
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Went to the mass at the SSPX Sanford Florida Priory on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and all three days the priest did not do the Leonine prayers after the Low Mass, instead he did some weather prayer in Latin that I could not understand (I was told that is what it was). In the Sunday Low mass there were no Leonine Prayers after mass nor the weather blessing, so I assume the problem is the Leonine prayer. The prior is French, so I ask, do they omit the Leonine Prayers in France? Why don't they do both the Leonine Prayers and the weather blessing? The Leonine prayers take like 3 minutes and the blessing maybe took 1 minute.
I remember that priory got hit by a hurricane last year, maybe it was because they are not doing the Leonine Prayers?
do you think that the weather prayer will protect the priory?
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Went to the mass at the SSPX Sanford Florida Priory on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and all three days the priest did not do the Leonine prayers after the Low Mass, instead he did some weather prayer in Latin that I could not understand (I was told that is what it was). In the Sunday Low mass there were no Leonine Prayers after mass nor the weather blessing, so I assume the problem is the Leonine prayer. The prior is French, so I ask, do they omit the Leonine Prayers in France? Why don't they do both the Leonine Prayers and the weather blessing? The Leonine prayers take like 3 minutes and the blessing maybe took 1 minute.
I remember that priory got hit by a hurricane last year, maybe it was because they are not doing the Leonine Prayers?
Have you tried calling and asking the priest?
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Have you tried calling and asking the priest?
I didn't see him after mass, and I assume the people that go to that chapel have already asked him, since it is their problem, not mine. I just found it odd.
My question is: Do they omit the Leonine Prayers in France?
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I didn't see him after mass, and I assume the people that go to that chapel have already asked him, since it is their problem, not mine. I just found it odd.
My question is: Do they omit the Leonine Prayers in France?
There are no Frenchmen on Cathinfo?
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Or just maybe there's an actual legitimate reason?
"From May 3rd to September 14th, using a relic of the True Cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ, there is a special blessing which asks God’s protection against violent storms that frequently occur during these summer months. It is customarily given after Low Masses during this time." - courtesy of St. Francis de Sales Oratory in St. Louis, Missouri.
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Or just maybe there's an actual legitimate reason?
"From May 3rd to September 14th, using a relic of the True Cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ, there is a special blessing which asks God’s protection against violent storms that frequently occur during these summer months. It is customarily given after Low Masses during this time." - courtesy of St. Francis de Sales Oratory in St. Louis, Missouri.
It does not say that the Leonine Prayers are omitted from May 3rd to September 14th. I do not see anything wrong with weather blessings, just the omission of the Leonine Prayers. Like I said, they can easily both be done, there is no reason to eliminate the Leonine Prayers.
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It does not say that the Leonine Prayers are omitted from May 3rd to September 14th. I do not see anything wrong with weather blessings, just the omission of the Leonine Prayers. Like I said, they can easily both be done, there is no reason to eliminate the Leonine Prayers.
As a general proposition, if other prayers are to be said, the Leonine Prayers are omitted. For example, they are omitted at our chapel on First Fridays, when Exposition and the public Rosary are said. They could do both, but that is not consistent with the rubrics.
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I didn't see him after mass, and I assume the people that go to that chapel have already asked him, since it is their problem, not mine. I just found it odd.
My question is: Do they omit the Leonine Prayers in France?
Yes.
About 3 or 4 years ago we had a priest replace our Prior in our SSPX chapel, he was from Europe, (not sure where) and he omitted the Leonin prayers. The people were upset about it and I think it was two weeks after that he announced the reason for the omission is because it is only a custom in America, he said they don't say those prayers in Europe. Although he was in America for another two years or so, he never said them after Mass.
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As a general proposition, if other prayers are to be said, the Leonine Prayers are omitted. For example, they are omitted at our chapel on First Fridays, when Exposition and the public Rosary are said. They could do both, but that is not consistent with the rubrics.
So, the Leonine prayers can eliminated as a practice for 6 months out of the year during hurricane season?
How about on Sunday, when neither the Leonine prayers nor the weather Blessing were said.
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Yes.
About 3 or 4 years ago we had a priest replace our Prior in our SSPX chapel, he was from Europe, (not sure where) and he omitted the Leonin prayers. The people were upset about it and I think it was two weeks after that he announced the reason for the omission is because it is only a custom in America, he said they don't say those prayers in Europe. Although he was in America for another two years or so, he never said them after Mass.
Well, there you go. That's what I thought. No wonder Europe has lost the faith (In France, less than 4% of Catholics go to mass and the other countries aren't much better off)
Anyhow, what goes on in other countries is no concern of ours, we have our long standing customs and that is what we need to hold on to and have others respect.
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So, the Leonine prayers can eliminated as a practice for 6 months out of the year during hurricane season?
How about on Sunday, when neither the Leonine prayers nor the weather Blessing were said.
I don't know about Sunday. In your original post, you said that the weather blessing was said after the mass on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. So were the Leonine Prayers and the weather blessing both omitted after a Sunday low mass?
Here's Fortescue on this question:
These Leonine prayers may be omitted after Low Masses which take the place of a solemn Mass, e.g., a conventual or capitular Mass; or which are celebrated with a certain solemnity, e.g., Mass for a first Holy Communion, for a general communion, for a marriage, for Confirmation, or an ordination or religious profession. They may also be omitted if any sacred function or pious exercise (e.g., Benediction, absolution for the dead) immediately and duly follows Mass, or when a homily has been given during Mass, also after a dialogue Mass, but on Sundays and greater feasts only.
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I remember that priory got hit by a hurricane last year, maybe it was because they are not doing the Leonine Prayers?
Uh, huh. For 2017, that's "hit by a hurricane" only in a manner of speaking.
The on-coming Hurricane Irma did indeed look quite grim for Floridans, including in Central Florida: It had been forecast to roar up the center of the Florida Peninsula as a major hurricane (i.e., category-3 or worse).
do you think that the weather prayer will protect the priory?
Aha! The A.I. experiment that afflicts CathInfo via platitudes has now joined in with a nonresponse reminiscent of the ground-breaking "Eliza" Turing-Test computer program [*].
Have you no opinion of your own about such a surprising outcome? Or do your handlers simply refuse to allow you to express it?
So I offer the attached radar-mosaic image of Irma, from the U.S. National Weather Service. It shows that forecast major hurricane unexpectedly & unusually fizzling out to a mere tropical storm soon after nightfall on Sep. 10--a Sunday (ahem!). Irma permanently lost the southern half of its eye-wall, soon after its intact eye arrived on the S.W. coast of Florida. At which time 4 or 5 counties separated it from the SSPX priory in Sanford, near the north boundary of Seminole Co. [@]. Very much unlike major Hurricanes Donna (1960) and Charley (2004), which arrived along comparable paths, and sure didn't fizzle; they remained powerful hurricanes while churning more-or-less N.E.-ward thro' the Peninsula, creating memorable natural disasters. And attained the distinction of officially getting their names permanently retired.
It's worth noting that the SSPX priory in Sanford is not the only chapel or church in Florida that has a claim to providing the traditional Catholic Mass & sacraments.
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Note *: Also known by the bland name "Doctor", the original version of the program was written by Joseph Weizenbaum of MIT at its A.I. Lab, way back in the mid-1960s.
Note @: From landfall N'ward, Florida counties in the order of the forecast path: (maybe Collier,) Charlotte, DeSoto, Hardee, Polk, Orange, Seminole. Only 1 county chosen for each line-segment of the forecast path, i.e., each county listed was the 1 closest to enclosing an entire line-segment; none are side-by-side west-to-east.
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I don't know about Sunday. In your original post, you said that the weather blessing was said after the mass on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. So were the Leonine Prayers and the weather blessing both omitted after a Sunday low mass?
Here's Fortescue on this question:
These Leonine prayers may be omitted after Low Masses which take the place of a solemn Mass, e.g., a conventual or capitular Mass; or which are celebrated with a certain solemnity, e.g., Mass for a first Holy Communion, for a general communion, for a marriage, for Confirmation, or an ordination or religious profession. They may also be omitted if any sacred function or pious exercise (e.g., Benediction, absolution for the dead) immediately and duly follows Mass, or when a homily has been given during Mass, also after a dialogue Mass, but on Sundays and greater feasts only.
The Leonine prayers were omitted on Sunday. There was no weather blessing on Sunday.
According to the quote by Fortescue the Leonine prayers could be omitted for a pious function, but a weather blessing replacing the Leonine prayers for 6 months out of the year is not "a religious function". Moreover, it says the Leonine prayers may be omitted after a Dialogue Mass, which is very odd since Fortescue died before the Dialogue mass existed. Additionally, there are customs in each country, and what Fortescue suggests (If it really is him who said it) may not have been the practice in the USA.
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I got the text I copied from The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described. This is from the 15th Ed. and has been revised post-Summorum Pontificuм. The portion that I quoted likely underwent a revision in 1959, when there was such a thing as a dialogue mass.
So, I think we're left to question why the priest omitted the Leonine prayers at the Sunday low mass where there was no weather blessing. Perhaps he forgot to include them since, it would seem, he'd excluded them the previous two days because of the weather blessing. It might very well be that there is an innocent or even proper explanation why they were omitted. Absent contrary information, it would seem the safest course to assume there is such a legitimate explanation.
And that is mostly my point -- there are quite a few little rules that govern the liturgy that we don't necessarily know. I was only aware that the Leonine prayers were omitted when there is some other blessing or liturgical action because I looked it up after I noticed their omission. It turned out there was a good reason and, in fact, their omission was dictated by the rubrics.
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I got the text I copied from The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described. This is from the 15th Ed. and has been revised post-Summorum Pontificuм. The portion that I quoted likely underwent a revision in 1959, when there was such a thing as a dialogue mass. (Well, there you go. That glaring addition makes the revision suspect)
So, I think we're left to question why the priest omitted the Leonine prayers at the Sunday low mass where there was no weather blessing. Perhaps he forgot to include them since, it would seem, he'd excluded them the previous two days because of the weather blessing. It might very well be that there is an innocent or even proper explanation why they were omitted. Absent contrary information, it would seem the safest course to assume there is such a legitimate explanation. (The Fortescue quote says it can be omitted on Sundays if there is a sermon, but again, it may also be part of the revision. Besides, it is not the custom in the USA, all the Low Masses I have gone to did not omit the Leonine Prayers.)
And that is mostly my point -- there are quite a few little rules that govern the liturgy that we don't necessarily know. (This is the excuse the priests used in the early 60's till present to change everything. I go by what was always done, the customs of my country. As soon as there is a change, I jump. ) I was only aware that the Leonine prayers were omitted when there is some other blessing or liturgical action because I looked it up after I noticed their omission. It turned out there was a good reason and, in fact, their omission was dictated by the rubrics. (the "rubrics" you quoted are from the time that all the changes took place, not reliable. Besides, there are different customs in every region.)
My responses in red.
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For what it's worth, here (http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/Russia-Leonine.pdf) is an article by the (in)famous Fr. Cekada, which discusses the legislation on this topic at page 11. The article goes on to suggest there is something to the idea that the prayers were maintained in America, but not in Europe.
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For what it's worth, here (http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/Russia-Leonine.pdf) is an article by the (in)famous Fr. Cekada, which discusses the legislation on this topic at page 11. The article goes on to suggest there is something to the idea that the prayers were maintained in America, but not in Europe.
An excellent contribution sir. This is an example of what Cathinfo is all about, teaching. I printed it and read it all last night. Here's some snippets:
Only a handful of priests resisted the post-Vatican II liturgical changes at first, but not everyone retained the Leonine Prayers. I suspect this was the case in France, since at the St. Pius X Seminary in Ecône in the 1970s we never said the prayers publicly. (I recited them publicly after my first Mass in 1977, an act considered rather daring at the time.) Most priests in America who first resisted the changes were well-known as dedicated patriots and vocal anti-Communists. These few stalwart men kept the Leonine Prayers alive when no one else in America did. It is to their eternal credit that they handed down the practice to a future generation which would see the prayers at long last bear fruit.
Vatican II (1962–1965), of course, had refused to condemn Communism, while Paul VI after his election in 1963 began to take the first tentative steps toward building what would come to be known as the “Vatican-Moscow Axis.” Since the Leonine Prayers were a reminder that Moscow was conducting a persecution, they were among the first things to go. In 1964, even before the Council closed, the Vatican issued a liturgical instruction which contained the memorably brutal phrase: “The Last Gospel is omitted; the Leonine Prayers are suppressed.”
The intention Pope Pius XI decreed in 1930 for the Leonine Prayers, as we noted above, was the freedom of the Church in Russia — that “tranquility and freedom to profess the faith,” as he said, “be restored to the afflicted people of Russia.
On 1 October 1990 the Soviet Union enacted a law on freedom of conscience and religious organizations. It was a lengthy and detailed statute, running in translation to nearly 500 lines of miniscule print. The law’s stated purpose was to guarantee the rights of citizens “to determine and express their attitude toward religion, to hold corresponding convictions and to profess a religion and perform religious rites without hindrance.”
The recent developments in Russia should be cause for a little less gloom and a little more optimism about our prayers. We traditional Catholics, after all, are the ones who kept right on saying the Leonine Prayers for our persecuted brethren in Russia. We may not have understood exactly what the Church’s intention was for these prayers, but God certainly did. And in His providence He granted His Church’s petition and our own. Here, then, is something we traditional Catholics can point to as some welcome good news — and as a concrete confirmation of the power of the Church’s prayer.
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It is not the conversion of Russia, it is for the conversion of Jєωs. Who is afraid of the Big Bad Wolf, so as not to mention, Jєωs? Bolshevik communism is the same as Jєωs. Jєωs have their gov't or ways set up in Russia. It is for the Conversion of Jєωs.
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Maybe we should pray for the conversion of America.