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Author Topic: no doubt about the "Bishop"  (Read 2754 times)

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Offline johnD

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no doubt about the "Bishop"
« on: October 28, 2015, 05:31:01 PM »
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  • Many have seen the recent picture of Ambrose in Boston, KY but there still remains, it seems,  some doubt in regards to where the investigation is at the moment.

    After Mass last Sunday, Fr. Pfeiffer was asked if he had any doubts as to the validity of Ambrose as Bishop. He very quickly and emphatically stated: "Oh, there is no doubt that he is a Bishop".

    The investigation is over.


    Offline JPaul

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    no doubt about the "Bishop"
    « Reply #1 on: October 28, 2015, 07:03:27 PM »
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  • Well then that is that, from the horses mouth, so to speak.  I do hope that it is true because Father is going to be staking his credibility and good name upon whether it is or is not.

    That is why I am praying for them.


    Offline JPaul

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    no doubt about the "Bishop"
    « Reply #2 on: October 29, 2015, 08:03:25 AM »
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  • I will say this based on a situation which is playing itself out as we speak,
    There is indeed solid doubt, and the concerned parties will know about it today.

    Pray for these priests.

    Offline TKGS

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    no doubt about the "Bishop"
    « Reply #3 on: October 29, 2015, 09:21:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: J.Paul
    I will say this based on a situation which is playing itself out as we speak,
    There is indeed solid doubt, and the concerned parties will know about it today.

    Pray for these priests.


    Pray even more for the seminarians who may one day receive invalid orders from this man and the Catholic faithful who will receive invalid sacraments from those priests.

    Offline LucasL

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    no doubt about the "Bishop"
    « Reply #4 on: October 29, 2015, 09:27:56 AM »
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  • This is more serious that I really thought it was.

    Quote from: MaterDominici
    For those thinking that Ambrose might be a valid Orthodox priest, this succession list for Bishop Michael Kirkland seems to suggest that Nicholas Ilnyckyj wasn't consecrated until 1978 -- four years after the date on Ambrose's ordination certificate.

    http://www.ourchurch.com/member/u/uaoc-oca-sec/index.php?p=1_4_History

    Quote
    In 1961, at the death of Metropolitan JOSEPH, Archbishop PETER was elected Moderator of the Standing Episcopal Conference. Metropolitan PETER II (Zhurawetzky) and Archbishop JOACHIM (Souris) consecrated Archbishop NIKOLAUS (Ilnyckyj) in 1978 for the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church in the United States.


    This site says the same:
    http://www.apostle1.com/aoc-history1.htm

    Quote
    In 1978, Archbishop +Peter  (Zhurawetsky)  assisted by Greek Archbishop +Joachim (Souris) and Greek Bishop +Lavrentios (Maniatakis) consecrated Metropolitan +Nicholas (Llnyckyj) for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.


    Offline LucasL

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    no doubt about the "Bishop"
    « Reply #5 on: October 29, 2015, 09:36:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .

    Quote from: LucasL
    Isidore Borecky assinature [signature]... thoughts?




    Here is what I thought about these two signatures:  

    First, the separation of letters in the second example seems to be one of two things, either this was how the person signing would write as a very young person, or else someone who is just practicing how to write a NEW name, such as after a name change.  If one learns to sign his name with cursive style from the beginning, he does not then switch to separate letters later in life, unless he's signing a DIFFERENT name.  Therefore, the dates associated with these two sigs ought to be considered since the first example should be more recent (older person) and the second example should be earlier (younger person).  The age of the person signing the first example is likely older furthermore, because the roughness and hesitant movement of the pen in the first example is much greater than the second example, which is what happens to elderly people, or when some neurological problem makes writing more difficult, such as after a stroke or even heart problems.

    Second,  there are various things wrong with each sig, but they're not the same things.  It's as though the signer for A had particular problems but the signer for B had different problems.  The first "I" in the second example was written with the pen beginning with the horizontal top with a little curve in it to the right, then abruptly flows down to the left and circles clockwise around the "+", then without interruption flows up into the "S" shape that finishes off the letter "I."  Remember that this is the version where many of the other letters are broken apart, written separately, not cursively.  The letter "I" at the beginning of the second example is a typically cursive style, whereas the rest of the same signature is not cursive at all, with the two exceptions of the "s" immediately following the "I" in Isadore and the "r" in Borecky.  Do not miss the fact that the "r" in Isadore is a printed letter, and therefore entirely different in style from the cursive "r" in Borecky.  This person was very much at ease with writing the initial "I" in cursive style, whereas the person in the first example was very much ILL at ease writing the initial "I."  The "I" in the first example is all chopped up, and it's not easy to see what came first and what followed.  If the same process of stroke as found in the second example is presumed, the parts of the first example "I" do not seem to fit the pattern, for from the very start, there is no top horizontal beginning stroke at all, but rather it seems to start at the bottom, circling the "+" clockwise, then stopping abruptly in the place where the second example flows smoothly into the rising "S" shape to finish the "I."  This interrupted movement is only found by using the second example as a guide to the first example.

    The first example has two r's in "Borrecky," and has no final "e" in Isidore.  There is a bothersome line striking diagonally down through the capital B. The "k" in the first example is nothing like the one in the second, and the "y" that follows each is likewise very different comparing the two signatures.  The first one looks more like a "z."  There is no hint of any dot over the "i" in Isidore in the first signature, whereas it is prominent and part of the signing in the second signature.

    Finally, among the inconsistencies is to be seen a small counterclockwise circle in three places in the second example, which are not found at all in the first example.  One is in the base of the small "s" the second letter of Isidore.  The next is the start of the letter "B" in Borecky, which is missing in the first example.  The third is at the top of the letter "c."  If it were only one place perhaps it would be excusable, but two places is more of a pattern.  This is in three places -- so it's rather convincing that a different hand was holding the pen than in the first example. The top of the "B" in the first example is unfortunately missing, but the top of the same "B" in the second example is discontinuous, as if how to draw the second half of the same letter had to be thought about before moving forward.  When someone signs his name he does not normally stop and think about it mid-signature.  But these two examples have multiple stops, especially the second example, giving the impression that the signer had to stop and think along the way to remember what he wants this signature to look like this time.  

    Poorly done forgeries often have multiple inconsistencies.

    I uploaded a copy of the image from LucasL's post so this can be in the CI archives.  I recall having read someone's comments on these two signatures but I can't find them now.  55 pages is a lot to search through.

    .

    Offline Matthew

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    no doubt about the "Bishop"
    « Reply #6 on: October 29, 2015, 09:46:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: Manuel Chavez on 30 Days Blog
    I have recommended that the original image be tracked down. If no such hard copy can be produced, then it is clear that this photograph should not be considered as evidence for the Bishop's claims.

    I will continue to scour through the docuмents tomorrow. Even if one image is Photoshopped, this does not disprove the Bishop's claims. More information and evidence is needed.


    NO, it is not that simple.

    He is basically saying "If this photo turns out to be fake, then I'll just have to keep looking for the good proof; no problem"

    NO. That is not how it works.

    An honest, non-con-artist does not just "happen to have" a doctored photo in his photo collection. I have thousands of pictures of myself and my family, and NONE of them are doctored, because I didn't see any need to doctor them! I wasn't trying to scam anyone that I was something I wasn't.

    The presence of EVEN ONE forged signature, forged docuмent, or doctored photo PROVES THAT AMBROSE IS A FRAUD and must be kicked to the curb. At that point, everything else he says or does is suspect! If he's a fraud, he is probably lying about his whole clerical state, just to make money (survive, make a living, whatever).

    Say you hire me for a job at your company. I need to pay you $30 for a uniform. I hand you a check, and you discover that it's one of your own checks -- and that your wallet is missing!  What if I said, "Oops -- I have your wallet right here. Sorry about that!" and get out my own checkbook and write a $30 check and hand it to you. Do you forget or overlook what just happened -- something out of a comedy skit? I just picked your pocket and tried to write a check from your account! Would you still want me as an employee? Unless you're hiring me as a thief or pickpocket, the answer is a resounding NO!

    In any conceivable realm of REAL LIFE, when someone tries to lie/scam/steal from you, he's DONE. PERIOD. You don't give him a "second chance". There are plenty of other painters/employees/mechanics/programmers/contractors/etc. and, long story short, YOU'RE NOT THAT DESPERATE to have to give a known scammer a second chance. There are plenty of fishes in the sea.

    And yes, Fr. Pfeiffer, that goes for a Trad Bishop as well. God will provide. If it's His will, He will provide you a REAL Bishop. In fact, He did provide you with TWO trad bishops and you rejected both of them (+Williamson and +Faure). Needing a bishop because you are too disobedient and headstrong doesn't mean you REALLY need a bishop. You just need to humble yourself and beg +Williamson forgiveness.

    If Joe Smith willfully and sinfully runs away from his wife and family, can he expect God to answer a prayer like this? "I'm lonely; I need a companion, but I can't get married again in the Church until my wife dies. So please, God, take my wife out of this world so I can get married again." Don't you think God's will in this matter is already quite clear? Isn't the solution in Joe's own hands already? He simply needs to go back to his wife and be reconciled, go to confession, and go on from there. How can he expect God to work some kind of miracle to back up his own erratic, sinful behavior?

    The analogy to Fr. Pfeiffer's situation should be obvious. If he can't manage to get along with Bishop Williamson or Bishop Faure, there's something wrong with HIM, and not "the situation" needing God's help and intervention. Every other Resistance priest manages to be on good terms with these bishops. No other Resistance priest -- not even one other -- is desperately bringing in con artists, Orthodox bishops, Old Catholic bishops, Thuc line bishops, etc. They are all getting confirmations from +Williamson and/or +Faure, no problem. All the other Resistance priests worldwide are on speaking terms with both bishops.

    If I were a betting man, I'd bet that Manuel will be disappointed in his quest for the "original version" of that doctored photo. Now he MIGHT find an original version of Bp. Slipyj leaving St. Sophia (with no person added in), but that would just prove the fraud.
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    Offline Matthew

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    no doubt about the "Bishop"
    « Reply #7 on: October 30, 2015, 12:29:38 PM »
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  • Note that Moran had to cross out the name of the church on one of his fake "ordination" certificates, because he couldn't find a photo of Cardinal Slipyj leaving that church. He found one leaving St. Sophia, so he thought it easier to just cross out the name of the church and write in "St. Sophia" rather than start over creating an ordination docuмent from scratch.

    He's really a third-rate con artist.
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    Offline stgobnait

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    no doubt about the "Bishop"
    « Reply #8 on: October 30, 2015, 01:53:51 PM »
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  • Simple question, would you or anyone accept bp ambrose to confirm their children or grandchildren, I would not, now Fr P and Fr H, take up the slack, Disgracful stupidy....