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Author Topic: No Cross Bearers And Frenchifying USA  (Read 929 times)

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Offline AveMarisStella

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No Cross Bearers And Frenchifying USA
« on: December 20, 2012, 10:50:51 AM »
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  • To all those who have recently been posting about how the SSPX is Frenchie-fying the USA SSPX Chapels:

    We are told NO MORE CROSS BEARERS in Sunday Masses, High or Low because it is "NOT THE PRACTICE IN FRANCE"

    SSPX France - St. Nicholas de Chardonnet





    I guess the good priests at St. Nicholas, Paris didn't get the memo????

     :facepalm:


    Offline PAT317

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    No Cross Bearers And Frenchifying USA
    « Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 01:42:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: AveMarisStella

    We are told NO MORE CROSS BEARERS in Sunday Masses, High or Low because it is "NOT THE PRACTICE IN FRANCE"


    Are you able to say at what parish?  Post Falls?  Or is this to be District-wide?

    Wasn't the alleged reason in Post Falls inadequate room in the Sanctuary?  


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    No Cross Bearers And Frenchifying USA
    « Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 10:32:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: PAT317
    Quote from: AveMarisStella

    We are told NO MORE CROSS BEARERS in Sunday Masses, High or Low because it is "NOT THE PRACTICE IN FRANCE"


    Are you able to say at what parish?  Post Falls?  Or is this to be District-wide?

    Wasn't the alleged reason in Post Falls inadequate room in the Sanctuary?  


    Hmmm... looks like the Internet intervened - again.  
    The inadequate-room-in-the-sanctuary excuse didn't fly;
    So now they're trying to re-group.
    The number one objective is to patch things up so they can make the 'deal'.
    And there's a checklist, a secret one, of course:  
    you don't have to know everything;
    St. Thomas Aquinas tells you so - see?   It's right here, in print.
    So they check things off, and the faithful are in 'el darko'
    except for the fact of that darned Internet:
    "And they didn't believe it when we told them it's a
    MORTAL SIN
    to use the Internet," so that's another 'no fly zone' dead end.....


    Stay tuned........



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    No Cross Bearers And Frenchifying USA
    « Reply #3 on: December 21, 2012, 06:09:50 PM »
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  • There is another version of this (8-part series that was uploaded in
    2008),  uploaded 2012, all in one video instead of 8 segments (with
    one, #6, apparently missing):

    Parisians Enjoy Simple Majesty of Tridentine Latin Mass
    UnaVoceMiami·101 videos

     Published on Apr 29, 2012

    TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS ATTRACTS, ENERGIZES, AND INSPIRES THE FAITHFUL.




    The linked video does show the cross-bearer in the procession.  Also,
    the last one in the series, , shows the cross-bearer in the exit
    procession.  

    This is the Sunday Mass of the 24th and Last Sunday after Pentecost,
    for on video #1 at minute 9:30 the open altar missal can be read in a
    closeup shot panning the page as follows:  "Dominica Vigesimaquarta
    et ultima post Pentecosten..  Introitus Jerem. 29..  Dicit Dominus: Ego
    cogito cogitationes pacis, et non afflictiones:  invocabitis me, et ego
    exaudiam vos:  et reducam captivitatem vestram de cunctis locis.  Ps. 84
    Benedixisti Domine terram tuam: avertisti captivitatem Jacob. "  
    The
    choir sings this in Gregorian Chant.

    Isn't it great to be able to understand a Mass celebrated on the other
    side of the planet, years ago?

    The continuous version (1:13:29 duration) seems to be a connection of
    the 8 segments, but there are definitely parts missing (which means the
    Mass may have been 1-1/2 hours or even longer).  Watch the Gospel
    sung by the priest in Latin:  it is a long gospel, but doesn't take long
    because most of it is edited out, unfortunately, with parts skipped at
    seamless camera angle changes.  At minute 25:04 the lector finishes
    reading the Gospel in French, and the camera position changes to show
    the priest already in the pulpit, with chasuble and maniple missing.  That
    would be about a minute of time gone, during which time perhaps the
    choir sang, but perhaps there was nothing going on, and nothing looks
    bad on film.  If you know French, the sermon is probably very enjoyable.  
    If anyone wants to transcribe it and post an English version that might
    be quite interesting to see.  But since the Mass was 4 years ago, what's
    the chance of that happening?  

    Or, does an English transcription already exist somewhere???

    I don't know what minute it was because the counter stopped working
    on YouTube - lousy Flash player!  But the consecration is shown in the
    continuous version, linked above.  In another thread someone was
    complaining that sometimes the priest genuflects and raises the host
    literally 5 seconds after the choir stops singing the Sanctus.  Not here.
    there is an entire minute of absolute silence while a large array of
    altar boys kneel.  When the priest genuflects, the altar bells (4 in number)
    are rung once and the bell tolls in the tower outside, once.  As the
    priest raises the host, the altar bells ring 3 times, slowly, each time
    followed by the sound of the tower bell ringing like a distant echo.  Then
    the priest genuflects again after lowering the host, and the altar bells
    chime once, followed by the tower bell once.  This is utterly astounding.
    I have heard of this happening but I have never heard it recorded, nor
    have I been present to hear it in person.  I'm sorry if I am taking so
    long to describe this but it is really worth hearing even on YouTube!  It
    is about minute 45 but I don't really know because the counter stopped
    working.  The choir does NOT come in after the consecration to sing the
    Benedictus as has been done for many years in my area after all the
    innovations in the Novus Ordo.  I find having the choir sing during the
    consecration like that to be rather obtrusive and inappropriate, and it
    is a half-step toward the Novus Ordo abuse of the "Memorial Acclamation"
    by the congregation right after the consecration, with its interminable
    options of various newfangled concoction.  I don't want to repeat them
    here because I try to forget them...

    The duration of the French sermon is only 12 minutes, so perhaps parts
    of it are missing as well:  there are a lot of camera angle changes after
    all!  Since I don't know French, I can't tell if it makes sense what he's
    saying or not.

    There are 8 of these videos in segments, and they're professionally done.  
    It's quite nice to see the many camera angles changing, especially during
    the sermon and during the longer segments like the Gloria, the Credo
    and while the Choir sings the Graduale in Gregorian Chant.

    There are some irregularities, and I wonder if "this is the way it's done
    in France," or has it been going on for a long time like this?  Many of the
    women in the congregation are wearing veils, but apparently many are
    not.  

    At SSPX sites in the USA in my experience, they have been using no
    maniple at all for many years.  Here in the video, however, the priest does
    remove the maniple during the sermon, but the camera does not show
    what he does with it.  It is not placed over the altar missal, that much is
    certain.  The priest delivers his sermon from the high pulpit at the center of
    the nave.  When Bishop Williamson and Bishop de Mallerais came to my
    area for confirmations, at their Masses, they placed their maniple over the
    missal on the altar before they went to give their sermon (which, by the
    way, is the traditional way to do it, the way that was followed until the
    changes in rubrics that accompanied the 1962 missal).  And they did not
    remove their chasuble for the sermon.  Here at St. Nicholas, the priest
    gives his sermon with no chasuble on, but what he did with it is not seen.  
    Apparently, he divested of both the chasuble and the maniple at the same
    time, probably at the right side of the sanctuary, where he had changed
    vestments after the Asperges me.  

    Curiously, while the priest remained standing at the center of the
    altar, and immediately after he had apparently sung the Epistle (the
    film seems to skip his singing of it past his introduction and goes
    directly to the lector speaking French from the lectern), another man in  
    Lector/Acolyte vesture read the Epistle in French at the lectern on the
    left side of the sanctuary.  This is shown in video #2.

    Curiously, during the choir's singing of the Credo, the priest was
    seated well before the "ET HOMO FACTUS EST," when the congregation
    spontaneously genuflected, without anyone in the sanctuary genuflecting.
    As far as I can remember, the priest has timed his personal reading of
    the Credo at the altar such that he can be at the base of the steps
    when the choir sings et homo factus est, so that he can genuflect with
    everyone present, before he goes to be seated while the choir finishes
    singing the Credo, which took another two minutes in this case because
    the congregation was singing segments and they sang more slowly than
    the choir (as typical).

    This is a dialogue Mass, with the congregation singing some responses, such
    as the Kyrie sung antiphonally:  that is, the choir sings the first Kyrie.., the
    congregation sings the second led by the organ (no arm-waving liturgical
    "minister" is used or necessary), the choir sings the third, the congregation
    sings the first Christe.., the choir sings the second, congregation third,
    choir first kyrie.., congregation second, and finally, the choir sings the
    third Kyrie (from the third set of 3 segments) up to the point where the
    organ enjoins the congregation, "Tutti," to sing the last 9 notes of the
    final "eleison" with the choir.  This is the Mass of the Angels, VIII - In Festis
    Duplicibus (de Angelis), from the Gregorian Kyriale.  

    The organ signals to the congregation when NOT to sing by reducing its
    volume dramatically while the choir sings (the abrupt change in sound
    amplitude and quality startles the listeners, who then want to remain
    quiet while they hear the beautiful choir!), and then by stepping up the
    volume signals the congregation to sing again, while the choir holds back,
    at least initially.  While the priest speaks the Last Gospel (Jn. i. 1-14) in a
    low voice, the choir sings Salve Regina.

    Other responses, such as the second Confiteor (just after the priest's
    Communion) are spoken by the congregation, seemingly led by the choir
    speaking it aloud with the congregation following.  The video shows one
    of the two Acolytes in black cassocks leading the 8 red-cassock servers
    (at that point) in the spoken Confiteor.  The Acolyte is bowing but not
    kneeling.  I'm getting the impression this is a mix of Solemn High Mass
    rubrics with Missa Canata rubrics.  But I'm not sure.

    The congregation did NOT stand for the Sanctus, but was kneeling, but
    they did stand for the Pater Noster, only the end of which is seen on Video
    #7.  I cannot seem to find Video #6, which would have the consecration in
    it.  I am impressed to see everyone bowing their heads for the name of
    Jesu Christe, twice in the Gloria, which the congregation sings antiphonally
    with the choir.  It must be nice for visitors who sing in their home choirs
    to be able to sing at such a Mass, when they would like to sing in this  
    choir
    but are not regulars and therefore are limited to the congregation.

    The overall effect is impressive.  I must admit, while I generally do not
    find dialogue Mass something I can appreciate, this one seems to be
    okay, mostly because of the intensive choir contribution.  If there were
    no choir, but dialogue only, spoken by the congregation, I think that
    would always be very inimical to my sense of appropriateness.  With all
    this singing going on, it opens up possibilities for the choir to do certain
    things that expand the music even more, as they can sing above the
    congregation to lead and instruct and accentuate all at the same time.  A
    small choir in a small chapel with a small congregation cannot do that so
    much;  that is, they can somewhat, but the power, movement and effect is
    on a much smaller scale.  

    This large church with its very high ceilings, flowing arches and massive
    columns is quite beautiful.  It certainly seems to be the highest
    development of church architecture, as it contrasts so obviously with
    the "new" designs that get so much hype in the MSM.


    This is a Missa Cantata, not a Solemn High Mass.  It is probably billed as
    a "High Mass."  There is only one altar server (curioulsly) even while there
    is a crowd of about 20-24 small boys dressed in red cassocks and white lace
    surplice.  The video #5 has this written below:



    Uploaded on Oct 10, 2008

    Missa Tridentina em Paris - França
    Igreja de São Nicolas du Chardonnet
    Messe Tridentine Catholique Saint Pie V Gregorien - Grand Messe En Latin Holy Mass In Gregorian Paris part 5

    Junno Evren·8 videos



    The top comment below the first segment video (#1) got 21 thumbs up
    and no thumbs down:

    GasconyKid 3 years ago

    This is a what a REAL Mass is, not the phony Novus Ordo MESS, with its invalid cookie. Comparing the true Mass, as handed down from time immemorial, to that accursed spawn of the "Vatican II" Robber Council, is like comparing filet mignon to hog slop (which, unlike the Novus Ordo, does have value). Only a heretic "pope" and those of his ilk could prefer the ugliness of the Novus Ordo Mess to the incomparable and timeless beauty of the true Mass, as depicted here.

    Thanks for sharing with us.  :roll-laugh2:







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