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Author Topic: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)  (Read 3417 times)

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Offline JPaul

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Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2018, 07:36:17 PM »
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  • If the Wessex’s and JPaul’s of the world want to pretend that sedeprivationism is not sedevacantism, or if they want to create some other -ism to describe themselves, it’s all the same to me:
    “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”
    Perhaps, we do not choose to adopt an "ism", as you put it. A Catholic who is not a member of any cult or ill formed association, but  a person who has not lost the use of his reason and ability to think critically might better sum things up.
    Folks such as yourself, have been captured by myths, and must always find a category into which you can place this or that individual, who has anything to say which does not comport with the sectarian narratives of the past three or four decades.


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #31 on: July 26, 2018, 07:44:38 PM »
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  • I agree that when +BW came to the Resistance and changed its mission from carrying on the true SSPX apostolate to a disintegrating band of loosely affiliated independents, it was the death knell for the movement:

    It was doomed to go the way of all independents: It dies when the independent dies.

    And with the principle of authority willingly jettisoned, well, look around you today.

    But let’s not pretend the problem was something inherent in Lefebvre’s approach (like his refusal to become sedevacantist, perhaps?):

    The SSPX still has the same steady stream of 200 seminarians and 25-30 ordinations/year.

    This clearly shows that (contrary to what +BW says), the concept of authority, seminaries, and raw material is not depleted or obsolete.  Quite the opposite: Who makes a better show of excessive “obedience” and hierarchy than the rank and file SSPX clergy and seminarians?

    Men still volunteer from all over the world, and consequently, it is as impossible to agree with +BW in this regard as it is to fault Archbishop Lefebvre’s approach (which is really just passive-aggressive sour grapes that he never endorsed sedevacantism.
    Numbers are only one measure of success. When Bp W was thrown under the bus by Bp Fellay and there was no uprising among the hundred-plus priests who were trained in this manner, one rightly might conclude that the approach was less than a complete success.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #32 on: July 26, 2018, 08:20:18 PM »
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  • However, I'm not sure which came first: the criticism of Bp Williamson or the refusal to work with Fr Pfieffer.
    "Refusal" is only Fr. Pfeiffer's word. Bp Williamson gave conditions that would need to be met in order to support Fr. Pfeiffer's seminary and those conditions were never met. Ancient history at this point.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #33 on: July 26, 2018, 09:46:41 PM »
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  • Father Pfeiffer's support never materialized from the very beginning. That is a fact, but too much water has passed the dam so now it does not matter.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #34 on: July 28, 2018, 10:20:42 AM »
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  • Conflicting personalities. The bishop brooks no opposition and collects toadies. Father speaks his mind in the manner of early activists.

    If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Fr. Pfeiffer speaks his mind in the manner of early activists. To whom are to referring, regarding early activists?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #35 on: July 28, 2018, 06:46:15 PM »
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  • Conflicting personalities. Father speaks his mind in the manner of early activists.
    It was always a conflict, the Bishop found Fr. Pfeiffer useful in the early stages but he would not be tempered or controlled in his zeal, and that interfered with other plans, so he had to be moved aside, and the asset became a liability.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #36 on: July 28, 2018, 07:06:21 PM »
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  • and the asset became a liability.
    As would any priest who moves from heeding the bishop's advice to tossing it aside and then on to attempting to control the bishop.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #37 on: July 28, 2018, 07:23:33 PM »
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  • Wessex:
    Quote
    Conflicting personalities. Father (Pfeiffer) speaks his mind in the manner of early activists.

    Has Wessex ever met or dealt with Fr. Pfeiffer?  Who were these "early activists" whose behavior Fr.P so admirably replicates?


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #38 on: July 30, 2018, 10:07:13 AM »
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  • Perhaps, we do not choose to adopt an "ism", as you put it. A Catholic who is not a member of any cult or ill formed association, but  a person who has not lost the use of his reason and ability to think critically might better sum things up.
    Folks such as yourself, have been captured by myths, and must always find a category into which you can place this or that individual, who has anything to say which does not comport with the sectarian narratives of the past three or four decades.

    Ah, yes, you are too complicated and unique to be placed in a category... we should make up a new word JUST FOR YOU because you are THAT SPECIAL.

    Get over yourself, man!  You're not "above it all", however much you claim to be.

    You deny man's rational nature, which is able to abstract, categorize, and know the essence of things. Why do you have a problem with categories or "hat racks" to categorize various nouns? (people, things, ideas, movements)? It's basic rational human nature you have a problem with. It's one of the things that separates us from the animals.

    If there's one type of "anti-Novus Ordo" type that annoys me more than any other, it's those who seem to be sympathetic to the movement, but they want to be aloof from it. Those who say, "I'm just Catholic" as if all those who accept the label "Traditional Catholic" are some kind of low-end, Rent-a-Center patronizing, lotto ticket buying, pawn shop using, cheap beer guzzling, sports team rooting, low-credit-score having, lots of TV watching, fake fingernail wearing, tattooed, nose-pierced, Wal-Mart cashiers.

    In one statement or wave of the hand, they write off ALL the Traditional Movement, from the sedevacantists to Archbishop Lefebvre to Fr. Bolduc and the whole lot of them. They consider themselves smarter than ALL of them. And even if they deny it, it's still just as true. You can't reject the whole Trad movement and somehow still believe that any of them were superior to you. That would be empty talk.

    We don't accept the label "Traditional Catholic" because we're partisan, have a team or gang mentality, love division, or any of that BS. It's because it's a label that does a job: it reflects a reality: we all hold a certain position on the Crisis. Like any element of LANGUAGE used by rational creatures, language serves as a shorthand abstraction to convey a certain reality.

    Why don't you go further and call yourself "Christian" instead of Catholic! Come on, don't give any ground to those Protestants. Take back the name! Let's pretend the Prots didn't take over much of the Western world.

    Oh, but if you call yourself Christian, people will assume you're protestant, won't they? And if you call yourself "Catholic", they're going to assume you're mainstream (novus ordo) Catholic. That's the REALITY, like it or not. You can kick against the goad, but reality is reality.

    That's why the new 3rd, 4th, and 5th gender pronouns aren't taking off -- at all. Those "new genders" are only manifestations of mental illness existing solely in the brains of a handful of mental patients. They aren't real, so we don't need any new words to reflect a new reality.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #39 on: July 30, 2018, 10:21:33 AM »
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  • It was always a conflict, the Bishop found Fr. Pfeiffer useful in the early stages but he would not be tempered or controlled in his zeal, and that interfered with other plans, so he had to be moved aside, and the asset became a liability.

    As Mother-of-Dominic cleverly pointed out, "an asset became a liability" is the way any disobedient or rebellious inferior would frame a conflict, when giving out "his version" of a story.

    Saying Fr. Pfeiffer was "an asset [that] became a liability" makes +Williamson seem to be arbitrary, despotic, and at fault. However, the fact is that Fr. Pfeiffer refused to follow the bishop in any way, even in important matters like the formation of priests, and Fr. Pfeiffer wanted to be in charge even of Bishop Williamson! And Fr. Pfeiffer went further, even attacking him publicly.

    Yeah, I guess you could call that "an asset became a liability". Any sane man would cut off such a liability, post-haste!

    P.S. No one back then knew just how far Fr. Pfeiffer would fall. We're all used to the idea today, but remember a lot of good people (virtually the whole Resistance at the time) supported Fr. P in the beginning.

    I have mentioned many times that I supported Fr. P in the beginning, until he started going off the deep end and working various evils. That doesn't make me (or any one else) hypocritical, unstable, or blameworthy. Same with the SSPX! I supported them when they did lots of good for souls and for Tradition. When it became clear they were compromised and on track to become FSSP part 2, I was out of there faster than you could say "Archbishop Lefebvre".

    Anyone who knows +Williamson knows that he is very much an optimist about people. (I know, that sounds funny since he often preaches the Chastisement and the end of the world) This tendency towards optimism and seeing the best in people is probably the cause of most of his less-than-perfectly-good decisions in the past. Nobody's perfect.
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #40 on: July 30, 2018, 07:22:16 PM »
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  • Ah, yes, you are too complicated and unique to be placed in a category... we should make up a new word JUST FOR YOU because you are THAT SPECIAL.

    Get over yourself, man!  You're not "above it all", however much you claim to be.

    You deny man's rational nature, which is able to abstract, categorize, and know the essence of things. Why do you have a problem with categories or "hat racks" to categorize various nouns? (people, things, ideas, movements)? It's basic rational human nature you have a problem with. It's one of the things that separates us from the animals.

    If there's one type of "anti-Novus Ordo" type that annoys me more than any other, it's those who seem to be sympathetic to the movement, but they want to be aloof from it. Those who say, "I'm just Catholic" as if all those who accept the label "Traditional Catholic" are some kind of low-end, Rent-a-Center patronizing, lotto ticket buying, pawn shop using, cheap beer guzzling, sports team rooting, low-credit-score having, lots of TV watching, fake fingernail wearing, tattooed, nose-pierced, Wal-Mart cashiers.

    In one statement or wave of the hand, they write off ALL the Traditional Movement, from the sedevacantists to Archbishop Lefebvre to Fr. Bolduc and the whole lot of them. They consider themselves smarter than ALL of them. And even if they deny it, it's still just as true. You can't reject the whole Trad movement and somehow still believe that any of them were superior to you. That would be empty talk.

    We don't accept the label "Traditional Catholic" because we're partisan, have a team or gang mentality, love division, or any of that BS. It's because it's a label that does a job: it reflects a reality: we all hold a certain position on the Crisis. Like any element of LANGUAGE used by rational creatures, language serves as a shorthand abstraction to convey a certain reality.

    Why don't you go further and call yourself "Christian" instead of Catholic! Come on, don't give any ground to those Protestants. Take back the name! Let's pretend the Prots didn't take over much of the Western world.

    Oh, but if you call yourself Christian, people will assume you're protestant, won't they? And if you call yourself "Catholic", they're going to assume you're mainstream (novus ordo) Catholic. That's the REALITY, like it or not. You can kick against the goad, but reality is reality.

    That's why the new 3rd, 4th, and 5th gender pronouns aren't taking off -- at all. Those "new genders" are only manifestations of mental illness existing solely in the brains of a handful of mental patients. They aren't real, so we don't need any new words to reflect a new reality.
    Well,that's quite an opinion.  I hardly know what to say except I never claimed to be any kind of special of even "too complicated" for classification. What I actually did say was that I did not fit into these arbitrary categories which are in fashion now, and then I went on to point out how some folks are intolerant of any one who is not able to be put on the shelf of those who are either in agreement with certain opinions or those who dissent from that point of view. This exchange is an illustration of that.
    Being a Christian is certainly not exclusive of being a Catholic in fact they are the identical in their substance.  
    As for labels doing their job, well, in their current usage, they do more than their job. They classify, separate out, and carry with them a lot of baggage and implications, and they are used to create realities rather than to reflect realities.
    The modern use of language is so tortured and distorted as to be almost unusable as a means of communication between men. Men no longer agree upon the objective meaning of words or often speak of the same thing but have two completely opposed understanding of what is said.
    And when I said that Fr. Pfeiffer went from an asset to a liability, I meant that the context and real situation around him changed and that is where he became an inconvenience.
    I said nothing about him becoming a disobedient or rebellious inferior, those are the words of others, attached to my statement which was limited to to only the words that I said.
    In the beginning Father's Pfeiffer and Chazal were an asset, in fact they were the first form of an official resistance. Bishop Williamson had not yet come on board with their efforts. What happened after that, I will not address as that is beyond the scope of this reply.
    Pfeiffer's disagreements and criticism of the Bishop did not happen in this time period but at a later date when relations soured and became hopeless.
    It believe that your criticism to be unjustified and an over reaction to my comment to 2Vermont.



    Offline AJNC

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharistic Miracle (talk by Bp Williamson)
    « Reply #41 on: July 30, 2018, 09:16:01 PM »
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  • If the Wessex’s and JPaul’s of the world want to pretend that sedeprivationism is not sedevacantism, or if they want to create some other -ism to describe themselves, it’s all the same to me:
    “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”
    No brand of Traditional Catholicism is acceptable to the vast, vast majority of Novus Ordoites whether their pope is prayed for by the Trads or whether the Trads believe in their NO miracles.