Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Poll

New rite bishops' ordinations: Inherently invalid?

YES
13 (44.8%)
NO
16 (55.2%)

Total Members Voted: 23

Author Topic: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?  (Read 4153 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MaterDominici

  • Mod
  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 5663
  • Reputation: +4416/-107
  • Gender: Female
Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2018, 04:49:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Welcome back, OHCA  :cowboy:

    Offline OHCA

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2834
    • Reputation: +1866/-112
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #16 on: July 27, 2018, 04:55:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No valid bishops mean that there is no valid pope, nor has there been one since 1958 when Pope Pius XII went to his Eternal Reward - the sixtieth anniversary of which is coming in 2 and a half months. October 9th, 1958.

    The prospect of a six-decade-long interregnum is terrifying because it means that we have gone six decades without ordinary jurisdiction in the Latin Church. No Pope, no bishops, no priests.

    I'm personally unsure because of the length of time. In 2018, likely, no. But in 1978 or 1988 when a lot of these bishops, who after the Council turned out to be heretics, still exercised public ministry? And the post-Vatican II establishment is still somewhat new?

    Entirely plausible.
    .
    Invalid episcopal consecrations, taken alone, would only impact the status Ratzinger & Bergoglio vis a vis the papacy.  Not all the way back to 1958, right?
    I don’t understand your last paragraph.  Are you saying new rite concecrations were more likely invalid in the seventies and eighties than now?


    Offline X

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 613
    • Reputation: +613/-55
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #17 on: July 27, 2018, 04:55:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Check out this interesting passage on the subject:

    "The pope was originally chosen by those senior clergymen resident in and near Rome. In 1059 the electorate was restricted to the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, and the individual votes of all Cardinal Electors were made equal in 1179. The electors are now limited to those who have not reached 80 on the day before the death or resignation of a pope.[89] The pope does not need to be a Cardinal Elector or indeed a Cardinal; however, since the pope is the Bishop of Rome, only those who can be ordained a bishop can be elected, which means that any male baptized Catholic is eligible. The last to be elected when not yet a bishop was Pope Gregory XVI in 1831, and the last to be elected when not even a priest was Pope Leo X in 1513, and the last to be elected when not a cardinal was Pope Urban VI in 1378.[90] If someone who is not a bishop is elected, he must be given episcopal ordination before the election is announced to the people.[91]
    The Second Council of Lyon was convened on 7 May 1274, to regulate the election of the pope. This Council decreed that the cardinal electors must meet within ten days of the pope's death, and that they must remain in seclusion until a pope has been elected; this was prompted by the three-year sede vacante following the death of Pope Clement IV in 1268. By the mid-16th century, the electoral process had evolved into its present form, allowing for variation in the time between the death of the pope and the meeting of the cardinal electors."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

    PS: Footnote 91 is from JPII
    PPS: It seems the Church considered even a 3 year sede vacante intolerable, and addressed the matter in Council.  What would they think about 60 years?
    PPPS: How was jurisdiction in the Church exercised during that 3 year interregnum?

    Offline JezusDeKoning

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2940
    • Reputation: +1090/-2221
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #18 on: July 27, 2018, 06:35:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    Invalid episcopal consecrations, taken alone, would only impact the status Ratzinger & Bergoglio vis a vis the papacy.  Not all the way back to 1958, right?
    I don’t understand your last paragraph.  Are you saying new rite concecrations were more likely invalid in the seventies and eighties than now?
    Because it was closer to the time of the Council when a lot of them still publicly exercised their ministry - only one or two decades after when the post-Council heresy was at its worst. And many of them were either complete pederasts, heretics or both.

    There would still be enough time for someone to think that maybe this would be resolved because they were still alive and we'd return to a semblance of normalcy.

    But today, I would have a lot of doubts because it's been 50 years, most of them are retired and/or dead and the New Rite has not been abandoned. 

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #19 on: July 27, 2018, 06:51:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Bishop [de Galarreta] has written about these ordinations/consecrations and he says they are way more problematic.  His reasons are much more detailed than +W.
    .
    So then why did he stop doing conditional re-ordinations?
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Mega-fin

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 372
    • Reputation: +249/-96
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #20 on: July 27, 2018, 07:38:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I believe that the new rites are doubtful. Quite different from invalid. For instance a conditional sacrament is given because the previously given sacrament is doubtful, not invalid per se, it seeks to remove doubt and give the sacrament were it not given. Myself, I would not receive a sacrament from a priest or bishop who is not conditionally ordained or consecrated because doubt exists. 
    Please disregard everything I have said; I have tended to speak before fact checking.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12695
    • Reputation: +8079/-2497
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #21 on: July 27, 2018, 09:22:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    So then why did he stop doing conditional re-ordinations?
    Who knows?  Maybe +Fellay told him to stop?  

    Why does the one Bishop (either Gallareta or Tissier) in the sspx with very good theology training (who has been part of the rome negotiations, and who is "pro deal") argue that the new consecrations/ordinations are VERY doubtful....while +W, who is "anti deal" argues that the ordinations/consecrations are probably valid, with little doubt?

    Bizzare-o world we live in.  Nobody is consistent in their thinking, even trad clerics.  Hate to say it, but don't blindly follow clerics or you'll be in danger.  "Watch and pray, lest ye enter into temptation."

    Offline OHCA

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2834
    • Reputation: +1866/-112
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #22 on: July 27, 2018, 10:39:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Welcome back, OHCA  :cowboy:
    .
    Thank you.  I’m happy to be back.


    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5099
    • Reputation: +2008/-413
    • Gender: Female
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #23 on: July 27, 2018, 11:40:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • All NO bishops are invalid.  Priests of NO invalid after 1967-68 when the sacrament was changed.

    All of the NO clergy must be members of their club of perverts and accepting of perverts.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #24 on: July 28, 2018, 12:55:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Who knows?  Maybe +Fellay told him to stop?  

    Why does the one Bishop (either [de Galarreta] or Tissier) in the sspx with very good theology training (who has been part of the rome negotiations, and who is "pro deal") argue that the new consecrations/ordinations are VERY doubtful....while +W, who is "anti deal" argues that the ordinations/consecrations are probably valid, with little doubt?

    Bizzare-o world we live in.  Nobody is consistent in their thinking, even trad clerics.  Hate to say it, but don't blindly follow clerics or you'll be in danger.  "Watch and pray, lest ye enter into temptation."
    .
    You did it again. His name is Bishop Alfonso de Galarreta, or +de Galarreta. One "l" and two "r". He's Spanish so double "ll" would be a different letter, making a "y" sound. And Tissier is his middle name, which is actually disrespectful of a cleric unless he's a Franciscan, or a few other orders. Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, or Bishop de Mallerais is more proper than Bishop Tissier.
    .
    Regarding the consecrations, I have found there is some disinformation going around, promoted by CMRI, among others, which says the bishop consecration form that was introduced in 1968 is doubtful. Reliable sources have assured me that is not the case. The doubt comes from the 1969 priestly ordination form, not the 1968 episcopal consecration form, and they say you can easily tell by comparing the words side by side for each, that the new episcopal consecration form is superior to the old one, whereas the new priestly ordination form is inferior to the old one. The Ottaviani Intervention (September, 1969) had something to do with a delay in the Novus Ordo and new priests' ordination form being implemented. The delay was July 1969 to after December 1969. Argentina bishops had a question they asked Rome by letter in July and Rome did not answer until after December, therefore Argentina continued to use the old form during the interim.
    .
    That's the way I've been informed. Not saying that I believe it, but I'm not pretending to be a judge because I'm not qualified to judge this. As I understand it, the SSPX has always used the old episcopal form (if it was good enough before 1968, why change it) and the old priestly ordination form (same reason, but 1969). But now with their +Fellayite aggiornamento and rapprochement policy, who knows, maybe they'll start using the new (1969) priestly ordination form in Virginia as a sign of their good will toward Newrome!! But as for episcopal consecrations, we shouldn't have to wonder because the NeoSSPX isn't going to do any new bishops -- that would be a major offense against NewRome and they're not about to rock the barque of Peter! HAHAHAHA
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #25 on: July 28, 2018, 03:04:22 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
                                  
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Wessex

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1311
    • Reputation: +1953/-361
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #26 on: July 28, 2018, 05:16:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • The question is rather confusing as to why it needs to be asked. By definition a NO bishop is valid in his own domain. In any other he is not valid. He cannot serve two masters .....but why would he want to?

    Offline AJNC

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1002
    • Reputation: +567/-43
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #27 on: July 28, 2018, 11:01:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sorry but I pressed NO when I meant to press YES.
    Maybe I am an idiot or maybe my fingers are fat and my phone too small.

    Offline Smedley Butler

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1334
    • Reputation: +551/-1531
    • Gender: Male
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #28 on: July 29, 2018, 10:02:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Close to 50/50

    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5099
    • Reputation: +2008/-413
    • Gender: Female
    Re: NO bishops' ordinations: Invalid?
    « Reply #29 on: July 29, 2018, 09:03:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Maybe the question should be "Are they heretics?"   They say a invalid mass (mess).  They are not ordaining priest!  So, priest can not give absolution or any sacrament.
    Bishops take money of the Catholic Charities and they know it gives $$ to abortion, LBGT and the agenda of the Masons.  therefore, bishops give no life on the altar.  They have no altars only tables.  They know Christ is not present.  They made sure of that!  And they can not hide behind the smoke screen or pro-life.  So, they give no life at all! 

    Does that cover it?  I doubt it!