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Author Topic: New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:  (Read 6955 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
« on: March 02, 2014, 03:03:47 PM »
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  • Another new article appeared on the SSPX.org website titled "What Comes First: Obedience or Fidelity" by Brian McCall.

    It is an exercise in convergence and bridge-building between two formerly adversarial positions (with the SSPX moving towards the FSSP, rather than vice-versa).

    While McCall portrays the FSSP/indult groups as "rigid" for their refusal to allow their laity to attend SSPX Masses, he speaks approvingly of the SSPX's "more nuanced" approach with regard to SSPXers attending indult Masses.

    McCall cites the official SSPX position: "We think it is not advisable to regularly attend the “extraordinary form” offered by the diocese or under the aegis of the Ecclesia Dei Commission."

    Already, there are two distinct problems with this position:

    1) The SSPX now refers to the true Mass as the "extraordinary form?"

    2) The SSPX apparently now thinks it is OK to occassionally attend indult Masses?

    The first of these issues represents a major concession to the Conciliarists: The implicit acceptance of the Novus Ordo Missae as the normative form of Mass in the Latin Rite.  It has been dealt with sufficiently elsewhere.

    The second error is more subtle, and deserves some attention, since it represents an incremental loss of opposition to indult attendance (and therefore reflects a change in mindset in the SSPX leadership):

    The issue of SSPXers attending indult Masses has been "downgraded" from a prohibition on indult attendance (save cases of necessity), to merely being "unadvisable to regularly attend."

    Certainly, this is a serious dilution of the traditional SSPX position regarding attending FSSP Masses (the reasons for which can still be found on the SSPX.org website).

    Here is a sample from the SSPX.org archives of what the SSPX used to teach about attending FSSP Masses:

    "They are therefore Conciliar Catholics and not traditional Catholics.

    This being so, attending their Mass is:

    Accepting the compromise on which they are based;

    Accepting the direction taken by the Conciliar Church and the consequent destruction of the Catholic Faith and practices, and

    Accepting, in particular, the lawfulness and doctrinal soundness of the Novus Ordo Missae and Vatican II.

    That is why a Catholic ought not to attend their Masses."

    (http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q13_fraternity_of_st_peter.htm)

    Now I have not regularly read The Remnant in years, but I seem to remember Brian McCall as a columnist for that indultarian flagship.

    Perhaps Mr. McCall has become an SSPXer.  Or perhaps he simply senses the SSPX is moving in the direction of The Remnant, and desires to encourage that slide.

    But with his championing of this allegedly "prudent and nuanced" position of the neo-SSPX, I wonder if he would have crossed the threshold of an SSPX chapel, had it maintained the militancy which has subsided in so many areas since the branding campaign ceased fire on Vatican II?

    And if the SSPX leadership would point to that example as proving their point about the benefits of the branding campaign (i.e., it will attract more people to tradition), one must be allowed to question whether the gain in numbers offsets the dilution in tradition.  As Archbishop Lefebvre observed, it may open tradition to a wider apostolate, yes, but one formed in ambiguity which will end by destroying us.

    But I digress...

    Mr. McCall recounts some of the traditional SSPX objections to attending indult Masses, but conveniently leaves out the "grand-daddy" of all objections: The nagging doubt surrounding the new rite of episcopal consecration (which obviously causes a doubt regarding the priestly ordinations in the FSSP and other indult groups).

    I do not profess to know with certainty (or even probability) whether those consecrations/ordinations are valid or invalid.  

    But it is alarming to me that the SSPX no longer seems to take the matter seriously, and one cannot help wondering whether the silence on this point in recent years (along with the refusal to require per se conditional ordinations for all priests serving SSPX chapels) is simply because Rome looks upon such ordinations disapprovingly.

    Interestingly enough, the second to last paragraph of McCall's article is a total condemnation of the branding campaign, though he seems unaware of it.  He points out the dangers of submerging yourself in an environment in which long periods of time pass without ever hearing about the errors of Vatican II, and the loss of faith (or increased potential to lose the faith) such an environment fosters.

    In essence, the entire tenor of the article is to praise the flexibility and lack of rigidity in the SSPX, and condemn the rigidity of the FSSP.

    But let me ask: Given those two conditions, which of the two is more likely to move in the direction of the other?  The one that is rigid and intransigent, or the one who "takes a more nuanced approach?"

    The appearance of a congratulatory article on the SSPX Polish District website regarding priestly ordinations for the various PCED communities last summer ought to answer that question for you (It can still be viewed at TheRecusant.org).  

    Do not be convinced that the branding campaign is simply a matter of style or approach.  Such a thing would have been unthinkable 10 years ago.  And now, apparently we are lightening our opposition to attending FSSP Masses.  

    Like liberalism, the branding campaign is a lense from which all things are viewed and affected.  Pope John XXIII tried it in 1962, "opening the windows" of the Church, and condemning the "prophets of doom," preferring a positive approach that would be more relevent and attractive in the modern world.

    But if past history is the best predicter of future performance, we know how this will end: Campos.

    In conclusion, I will end with Mr. McCall's words which, while not his intention, spell out precisely why the branding campaign is a threat to the preservation of the faith:

    "The danger that this silence brings is a risk of erosion of fidelity to the Faith. We are creatures of habits. Habits build virtues or vices. To continually accept through silence offenses against the Faith leads to a habit of becoming accustomed to them. We lose the sensitivity for the honor of God and His truth that should motivate our charity. Obviously attending a single Mass where a sermon does not touch on such matters will not destroy one’s faith. Obviously Society priests do not explain such matters every week or even regularly each month. Yet, a prolonged period of silence and covering scandal with a veil will have its corrosive effect. That which shocked our sense of the faith becomes routine because our sensitivity is not enforced with prudential warning. The danger is not of one Mass but of a habit. Scandals such as Assisi need not be discussed at every moment. Each thing has its proper season. Yet, to hide the danger to the Faith prevents defenses against it."

    Pax tecuм,

    Sean Johnson





     

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline John Grace

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #1 on: March 02, 2014, 03:25:13 PM »
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  • Several SSPX laity I know also attend the Indult. This has been my experience. Very few if any Indult people attend the SSPX. Tradition is small in Ireland so there is a tendency to dip in and out of both Indult/SSPX.

    Many attend the Indult because it is geographically nearer. Many visit family, who attend the SSPX.

    The SSPX are very much the same size as they were when the SSPX first arrived whilst the Indult has increased.



    Offline John Grace

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #2 on: March 02, 2014, 03:34:10 PM »
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  • In Ireland, the Institute of Christ the King moved in to Dioceses to scupper Tradition. Whilst the FSSP visit, they never established  an apostolate here. A former Irish FSSP priest offers Mass in Dublin. Fr William Richardson. He is often confused with a Bishop Richard Williamson.

    It was stated an Institute Christ the King priest concelebrated the Novus Ordo with the new Bishop of Limerick.

    Offline bowler

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #3 on: March 02, 2014, 03:39:40 PM »
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  • I don't see that there is any longer is any difference between the Neo-SSPX and the Fraternity of St. Peter and all the other Ecclesia Dei and Indult masses, EXCEPT one BIG one for me, and SJ hit the nail on the head, it is that I have serious doubts about the validity of the priests ordained by new rite consecrated bishops, and the new rite of ordination, and that means that I have a problem with 99% of all the FSSP, Ecclesia Dei and indult priests.

    Offline John Grace

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #4 on: March 02, 2014, 03:41:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    I don't see that there is any longer is any difference between the Neo-SSPX and the Fraternity of St. Peter and all the other Ecclesia Dei and Indult masses, EXCEPT one BIG one for me, and SJ hit the nail on the head, it is that I have serious doubts about the validity of the priests ordained by new rite consecrated bishops, and the new rite of ordination, and that means that I have a problem with 99% of all the FSSP, Ecclesia Dei and indult priests.


    An excellent comment. I went to friends wedding a few weeks ago but didn't receive   Holy communion as it was an Institute Christ the King cleric. It's doubtful these priests are validly ordained. Older Diocesan priests might be validly ordained. Diocesan priests say the New Mass, which I doubt the validity of.


    Offline Matto

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #5 on: March 02, 2014, 03:47:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    I don't see that there is any longer is any difference between the Neo-SSPX and the Fraternity of St. Peter and all the other Ecclesia Dei and Indult masses, EXCEPT one BIG one for me, and SJ hit the nail on the head, it is that I have serious doubts about the validity of the priests ordained by new rite consecrated bishops, and the new rite of ordination, and that means that I have a problem with 99% of all the FSSP, Ecclesia Dei and indult priests.

    That is the reason that I will attend SSPX Masses but not the FSSP or other indult masses. I know that nearly all of the SSPX priests are true priests while nearly all of the FSSP and indult priests are doubtful priests.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline bowler

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 03:48:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    Quote from: bowler
    I don't see that there is any longer is any difference between the Neo-SSPX and the Fraternity of St. Peter and all the other Ecclesia Dei and Indult masses, EXCEPT one BIG one for me, and SJ hit the nail on the head, it is that I have serious doubts about the validity of the priests ordained by new rite consecrated bishops, and the new rite of ordination, and that means that I have a problem with 99% of all the FSSP, Ecclesia Dei and indult priests.


    An excellent comment.


    In 2005 I saw in the Angelus Magazine (the cover story), an article saying that the new formula for consecrating bishops was valid. I told my wife that day, this piece is to show Rome that the SSPX is just like everyone else. The funny thing is, that I told her, the SSPX puts out this article because they want to draw more people from the "center", but instead, they will just loose their parishioners to the other Ecclesia Dei communities. And the strict SSPXers will leave the SSPX, since it is no longer the SSPX.

    If the SSPX is just like the FSSP, why should a person drive out of my way to go to the SSPX? Because the priest  gives a better sermon? Because you have more friends? because there is a pretty girl there?

    Offline John Grace

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 03:54:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: John Grace
    Quote from: bowler
    I don't see that there is any longer is any difference between the Neo-SSPX and the Fraternity of St. Peter and all the other Ecclesia Dei and Indult masses, EXCEPT one BIG one for me, and SJ hit the nail on the head, it is that I have serious doubts about the validity of the priests ordained by new rite consecrated bishops, and the new rite of ordination, and that means that I have a problem with 99% of all the FSSP, Ecclesia Dei and indult priests.


    An excellent comment.


    In 2005 I saw in the Angelus Magazine (the cover story), an article saying that the new formula for consecrating bishops was valid. I told my wife that day, this piece is to show Rome that the SSPX is just like everyone else. The funny thing is, that I told her, the SSPX puts out this article because they want to draw more people from the "center", but instead, they will just loose their parishioners to the other Ecclesia Dei communities. And the strict SSPXers will leave the SSPX, since it is no longer the SSPX.


    A few people I know go to the SSPX and the Indult on the basis of the Latin Mass. These are newer people so we need to pray for them. They are starting to see the bigger picture and are more clued in.

    If the 'newbie' is still dipping in and out of the Indult/SSPX in say 5 years time, we have a problem.

    I walked out of the Indult world as it was superficial and counterfeit Catholicism. Half measures and compromise. A great nonsense was this idea that Benedict XVI was a friend of Tradition.

    Like the NewChurch/New Mass, you can't keep a foot in both camps.

    I support the resistance as it is the logical camp to support.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 04:16:35 PM »
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  • Ahhh, the good old days:

    http://archives.sspx.org/fraternity_of_st_peter/protocol.pdf

    Note: At least read the last paragraph.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline John Grace

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 04:16:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: John Grace
    Quote from: bowler
    I don't see that there is any longer is any difference between the Neo-SSPX and the Fraternity of St. Peter and all the other Ecclesia Dei and Indult masses, EXCEPT one BIG one for me, and SJ hit the nail on the head, it is that I have serious doubts about the validity of the priests ordained by new rite consecrated bishops, and the new rite of ordination, and that means that I have a problem with 99% of all the FSSP, Ecclesia Dei and indult priests.


    An excellent comment.


    In 2005 I saw in the Angelus Magazine (the cover story), an article saying that the new formula for consecrating bishops was valid. I told my wife that day, this piece is to show Rome that the SSPX is just like everyone else. The funny thing is, that I told her, the SSPX puts out this article because they want to draw more people from the "center", but instead, they will just loose their parishioners to the other Ecclesia Dei communities. And the strict SSPXers will leave the SSPX, since it is no longer the SSPX.

    If the SSPX is just like the FSSP, why should a person drive out of my way to go to the SSPX? Because the priest  gives a better sermon? Because you have more friends? because there is a pretty girl there?


    Apart from 'hardline' Pixies/SSPX, very few distinguish. By attending the Indult one is already falling for the trap of Rome.


    http://www.cfnews.org/page10/page45/archbishop_dinoia_admits-convert_sspx_to_v2.html
    Quote
    Archbishop Di Noia Admits:
    The Goal is to Convert SSPX
    to Conciliar Thinking

    “This is a new concept which we know the Traditionalists will not be able to accept immediately. Convincing them will take time, and in this respect we will have to be patient.”
    – Archbishop Joseph Augustine Di Noia, newly-appointed Vice-Prefect of the Vatican’s Ecclesia Dei


    If SSPX laity attend or are open to attending the 'approved' Mass, are they that bothered about a practical agreement and Bishop Fellay.

    Offline John Grace

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #10 on: March 02, 2014, 04:32:53 PM »
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  • I disagree but you should be aware the vast bulk of Indult groups atleast in Ireland, do not attribute Archbishop Lefebvre to the flourishing of Tradition. The President of the Irish Latin Mass Society regularly has letters in the newspapers downplaying the role the Archbishop played.


    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #11 on: March 02, 2014, 04:34:43 PM »
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  • Sean, has this convinced you to leave the neo-SSPX for good?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #12 on: March 02, 2014, 05:29:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Sean, has this convinced you to leave the neo-SSPX for good?


    EM-

    I do not wish to get into an acrimonious debate with you.

    I know you do not support my approach.

    The answer is no.

    If you would like more details, I will send you a PM later.

    Pax Tecuм,

    Sean
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #13 on: March 02, 2014, 06:28:53 PM »
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  •  :scratchchin:

    Offline eddiearent

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    New SSPX.org Article on FSSP Mass Attendance:
    « Reply #14 on: March 02, 2014, 07:07:59 PM »
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  • So, all three groups mention Casual Frank in the canon and there is a doubt to the validity of the sacrament. Can the Catholic Church as a whole give something evil (invalid)? Think people.  :smoke-pot: